Rules kept firefighting aircraft on ground as devastating blazes took hold

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21478621/


Bureaucracy hampered initial Calif. fire efforts
Rules kept firefighting aircraft on ground as devastating blazes took hold


As wildfires were charging across Southern California, nearly two dozen water-dropping helicopters and two massive cargo planes sat idly by, grounded by government rules and bureaucracy.

How much the aircraft would have helped will never be known, but their inability to provide quick assistance raises troubling questions about California’s preparations for a fire season that was widely expected to be among the worst on record.

It took as long as a day for Navy, Marine and California National Guard helicopters to get clearance early this week, in part because state rules require all firefighting choppers to be accompanied by state forestry “fire spotters” who coordinate water or retardant drops. By the time those spotters arrived, the powerful Santa Ana winds stoking the fires had made it too dangerous to fly.

The National Guard’s C-130 cargo planes, among the most powerful aerial firefighting weapons, never were slated to help. The reason: They’ve yet to be outfitted with tanks needed to carry thousands of gallons of fire retardant, though that was promised four years ago.
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hear that?! it's the sound of america crumbling

should we get Pelosi to ask him for an apology. How about sending an email. What's her email address.

is crumbling because of a screw up with some C-130's? Sorry but I don't see it......

nt

but I don't see things that aren't there. Poor planning and followup by the state of California does not indictate the total callapse of the US.......just sayin' Room for improvement? you bet....

Louisiana. A hurricane hit it and there was no centralized, federal response. Actually, there was no federal response at all, except that the President flew his plane over it and looked out the window. It was pretty bad. People died. And I guess you didn't see when a freeway literally fell into a river up in Minnesota. Strangest thing when bridges, typically the first thing you look at regarding infrastructure, collapses. I guess you didn't see that either. Yeah. Now the whole wildfire issue. Don't see that either. Uh-huh.

discussing California.

Please try to keep up.

way to make friends. I am saying that the failure of California to get it's act together does not indicate that the US is crumbling, it doesn't make sense.Every state government has it's problems, especially in the area of disaster preparedness and deployment of resources.There is always room for improvement.

I consider the source.

Screw ups with C-130's are just a symptom.

Now, if it were for IRAQ, well then those garbage cans would have been outfitted with ALL the latest doo-dads, at a 500% profit for the contractor.

Such emergency services must be trained and equipped (and permitted) to perform those services under the conditions most likely to make those services necessary. It's beyond insane to underequip, understaff, and unduly restrict the deployment of such services.

This is, again, the corruption of a "business" perspective to the functions of government. Government MUST invest in EXCESS CAPACITY - since that's how we deal with emergencies. Government MUST design such services to operate DURING emergencies ... not when the conditions are "business as usual."

We've usually heard of a crash of a firefighting plane or helo because of the wind or smoke conditions during a major fire event in CA; this is the first season in the 25 years that I haven't heard of the downing of one of the aircraft....(knock wood, it will continue that way).

A former CDF pilot told me wednesday that even if they were able to fly low enough to drop on the fires, only about 20% of the water or retardant dropped might have effectively made it to the fire area; the rest of the drop would have been carried by the almost hurricane force wind gusts up to a good two-three miles west of the area needing the drop.

There is also a very good reason to have the spotters. In that smokey, windy condition, minimally trained pilots might not recognize the difference between an area that's already been burned or an area where a hot spot is beginning to flare up. If you drop on an area that's already cooling off, or an area that won't be aflame for another two/three hours, you've just wasted an entire load of water that could be best used on an area that might be a mile away from your drop that would be engulfed within the next ten minutes. But you might not have been able to recognize where you needed to drop...

And with our drought conditions, one "bucket" of water - 500 - 1000 gallons for the smaller buckets - is a horrible waste of time and resources.

Haele

Hopefully there's going to be a post-crisis review, and I'm sure that -- as always -- there will be lessons to be learned. Folks, please give that process a chance to work.

In the mean time, please consider:

- the rules about spotters are there for a reason. Doing water drops on wildfires is DANGEROUS. Doing it in the rugged hill country of east San Diego county is even more dangerous. These are dangerous places to be flying near treetop level even when they AREN'T on fire. To paraphrase Han Solo, it ain't like dusting crops.

- Half of San Diego county burned. Something on the order of a million people evacuated and relocated in the space of 36 to 48 hours. Hundreds of thousands of homes threatened. With all that going on, they lost seven dead and 1500 houses.

It's possibly -- just barely -- that a few things went right here.

J,
grateful to the men and women who stopped a fire two miles from my 84 year old Dad's house

go ahead and send the planes up without a trained spotter, then watch the outrage when one of these planes drills a hillside or we have a midair collision. for fucks sake, I have grown sick and fucking tired of the arm chair quarterbacks who have never experienced santa ana winds or firestorms.

cheers.