What is going on in this place?

This isn't about the primaries, people... this is much more deeply-rooted than that.

There are far too many instances of people being unnecessarily hostile to each other here, and it's got to stop. When I say 'unnecessarily' there, I mean that I completely understand that we're all human and all given to losing our cool from time to time... but it seems like lately far too many people are just spoiling for a fight from the start. Nasty posts & responses, defensive posts & responses, ignoring what's said and reacting with hostility because of what some other people said before that's similar to what's being said now... it's got to the point now where it's just ridiculous.

I know we're all under a lot of stress and we're all feeling the pressure of the upcoming elections, with all the consequences that we face based on that outcome. But it really is counterproductive to constantly vent that stress at each other, nonstop, and with no apologies or even an attempt at reconciliation.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: please try not to take things personally, and deal with people kindly and with understanding and compassion. If someone is combative and hostile to you with seemingly no reason for it, try not to react with hostility. If you find yourself being combative and hostile with someone, then cool down, fucking apologize for it and move on.

This is not a quick battle we are engaged in. This is a long-term 'war' and it's going to have to be slogged through by all of us, together or alone.

It may sound trite, but I believe it's true: United, we stand. Divided, we fall.

Things have always been argue-y, sure... but this is different.

and this happens all the time as do the reactions against it, part of the same. Besides the civility a little acceptance of ordinary human nature and even enjoyment of the vitality of it all should also be cultivated like a fine cheap wine.

Nothing new except that the whole damn planet is going to hell, for real this time, unaccompanied by Gabriel's trumpet. If that doesn't transform ordinary human nature into something more seriously productive what can? Zippo it appears. Still everything you say about civility is valuable and a must so long as we accept people for who they are and not their typical flame mode behavior.

I like to think I represent some of the more pious hypocrites in the forum, but I feel I am not completely accepted.(If you can figure that one out please don't flame me. I kiss my St Nader medallion as the fires lick toward my toes.) Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme merde.

If we wanted to march in lockstep, we'd be Republicans. However, we have to learn how to disagree productively and respectfully. It really is a learnable skill.

~~holding up mirror~~

That's what I'm trying to do.

that Californians are sucking up YOUR tax dollars to insure our homes we should not have built in the first place.

And then you are surprised when there's a hostile reaction?

You read into my words, based on what you've read elsewhere. As I said in that thread, California is not the only state with high-risk areas.

I'm surprised when there's a hostile reaction to people who aren't hostile, yes.


Did you notice that you used a loaded term in your post? "whining"?

It's not redqueen's tax money being sucked up. When you think about it and look into it, you will see that California falls under the taxation without representation model, among others. We are putting far more tax dollars into the pot than we are getting benefit from. That's what makes the secessionist's arguments seem on the right track.

This is not about California, or corn flake chicken, or breastfeeding, or circumcision, or who's a "real liberal".

Please... please try to address the subject and not drag other fights into this. Please.

but isn't CA one of the states that pays out to the USA more than it gets back?

I know it's, what, the 7th biggest economy in the world?

In any event, stand by for some massive insurance jumps out there.

The delightful insurance companies have already fucked the people on the east coast by nearly doubling premiums, even if you're a half mile or more from the shore and have NEVER filed a claim since 1939 when the house was built (that's not anecdotal--that's a real example).

See, they 'fear' a big hurricane. So they're screwing people who have survived hurricanes without losing a slate from the roof due to weather for nearly seventy years. Makes no sense...

:eyes:

This thread isn't about California... I'm sorry, but there are LOTS of other threads about California.

I'm sorry to say. That's what you are. You are demanding that people act a certain way because you don't like what they are saying. You are demanding that people not say certain things in a thread just because you started said thread. You are trying to control people.

It's no wonder you feel so frustrated.

I'm sorry, I have to call them as I see them. I see your frustrations, and I've seen the same in myself, so I know what the signs are.

Why use a loaded term like "freak"?

I'm not saying everyone must do this or that. I said "please". I'm making a suggestion.

I suppose it makes no difference that I'm calling myself the same? You are willing to take the angst the extra mile because of the word I used? Do you see what you are doing?

I'm sorry, but your pleading and begging gets rather sharp tongued when left to on for a while.

notice my calm response following my question.

I only pointed out the loaded term cause that's the kind of thing that sets things down the wrong path, that's all.

:hi:

p.s. What does "when left to on for a while" mean? Are you saying I get mean & nasty after I beg and plead for a while... or that being mean & nasty is a reasonable response to constant begging and pleading? :shrug:

And besides, how often do I beg and plead? Can't you just indulge me once in a while? :P

You turned it around nicely:) I'm impressed:)


:hugs:

But stand by for those insurance increases. Hell, if they can fuck us with hurricane PREDICTIONS that didn't come true, you guys are SKROOOOOOOOOOOOD with those fires...

When I've said something about paying $4000 a year in property tax because someone was whining about paying $200 a year after a HUGE increase... when I've said that my home owner's insurance is another $3600 a year... and my car insurance (for a non-flashy little Mazda) is $1500 a year... house payment is $1800 a month for the pleasure of living in the ghetto (complete with gun shots and graffiti) I'm laughed out of this place as a whiny, wealthy Californian.

I'm one paycheck away from the street, and I'm a wealthy, whiny person just because I live in California... because you KNOW that all of California looks like Bel Air.

Now my insurance will go through the roof. I haven't been able to afford a real vacation in four years, I can't even afford cable.

It's madness.

Remember our insurance is subsidized by other state's TAXES. Didn't you know that's how we afford this lavish lifestyle we all lead?

Especially for our properties near the shore!!!

Exactly:)

Your car insurance is worse than mine, though! Of course, I have two older cars, but I pay way less.

They get us good here in my town--but the schools are FABULOUS! :shrug:

Using someone's tax dollars to educate OTHER PEOPLE'S kids is just not fair!! It might contribute to the common good!!

:sarcasm:

You'd think the taxes were pretty high for what you get too;)

During any number of town hall meetings in the 18th and 19th centuries:) And we're talking literal town hall... where people physically gathered to discuss politics. And the cartoons of the time were pretty nasty too. As were the political news stories in newspapers.

I just think the world is bigger and people have more access to discussion with more people, so it appears the problem is much bigger than ever. In pure mass, sure. Percentage wise, I'm betting it's pretty close to the same.

It always yields differences in opinion. Online is different in the sense that we can have disagreements without creating bad feelings such as with friends, family, or work, etc. It's a political discussion board. What should we expect? Constant praise of how good the Democrats representing us are doing? ;)

I wonder what political discussions were like two hundred years ago as radicals like Thomas Paine and others stirred up sentiments strongly enough to start a revolution.

literally gave me chills!!!

There is no tolerance for someone with a differing opinion and boy are the experts coming out of the walls!

Gets to you after awhile....

the stakes are too high. We have too much to lose.

Exactly.

What I've been saying for a very long time.

And being crucified for.

or throw you under the bus.

The way I remember it, we disagreed about Kucinich's platform, that's all...

We, on DU, are no different in that respect.

We are out to win at all costs, and employ many of the same tactics as the ones we deplore.

I think Dennis would heartily agree with that point... look within ourselves first.

It's what we did in our dirty-hippie-commie-pinko-bum days, and have lost that ability. It's our loss.

I didn't mean to be hurtful. I really didn't.

is happening out there.

:-)

Anyhow, I'm kicking this plea for peace and civility in our ranks. No Berserkers aimed within, etc.

Hekate

I'm ready to jump down everyone's throat 24/7.

Even away from the net and from politics.

You get so tired of fighting for a position you just can't stand it anymore.

:eyes:

What do you mean by that?

I never once claimed that I have never been hostile with someone. :shrug:


The only thing I'm saying is that we need to try to tone it down.

OP has no credibility on this particular issue.

doing so appears combative.

I have been rude and blunt a few times these past weeks when there have been obvious troublemakers afoot, calling for some outrageous things.

I also think some of the nastiness is a symptom of the overall stress we are living under--the shocking actions of our government which seem to defy logic, humanitarianism and the Constitution--and how powerless we feel.

Maybe it's just the raw nerves from the wildfires... but honestly this seems to be a regular occurrence around here lately. I'm not the only person who thinks so, I'm sure.

Are we finally ready to actually discuss the REAL issue?

You are a bloody, buggery ne'er do well troublemaker!

Sometimes I feel like I accidental landed in Freeperville, honestly.

and expressing that disagreement using uncivil terms / methods.

Because I've seen you do the very same thing that you are railing against. I'm no better, but I'm not a hypocrite either. And quite frankly, I feel you are being hypocritical here. I've experienced your nastiness first hand, and I've been just as ornery.

We're all going to do it... or nearly all, I'm sure there are some who just never ever do (Mr. Magistrate comes to mind)...

My only point is that we should try harder not to, and try to make an effort to reconcile, when we do.

Mr. Magistrate is the master of passive-aggressive conversation. That you don't take offense is part of his brilliance and charm:)

Wow... I never read him that way at all.

Maybe I'm tone-deaf to passive-aggressiveness?

There needs to be an "on-target" emoticon here...

:applause:

:hi:

I feel so old..... now I find myself saying, "Back all those years ago, when I was a dirty-hippie-commie-pinko-bum, we felt it our mission to find ways to make peace with others". sigh.... being old loses it's charm after a while. :hi:

Of course, Martin Luther King MUST have been horribly mistaken when he kept urging people to NOT fight with their opponents, but to lovingly convert them.

:(

assassinate Pelosi, then I will step in and say something very angry and to the point. But those are over the top examples.

How big is the DU tent, in terms of differing opinions, especially when it comes to candidates and/or third party supporters, etc...?

It's like John Lennon said about peace.... We can have it if we want it enough.

Come to think of it, common courtesy IS peace, isn't it?

Whether we're united or divided, the system is broken. All unity does is get us working efficiently within a broken system.

I understand that this is the "Democratic" Underground...Democrats are supported here. However, it's also become populated by a lot of progressive thinkers who don't believe that the Democratic candidates we're given represent anything remotely progressive.

In 2004, I was firmly in the camp of those who believed that we had to get as many Democrats elected as possible....that would begin to effect change. After seeing what our elected "Democratic majority" has done, I wonder at times if that's a sound philosophy.

Many "progressives" are no longer "Democrats". Many "Democrats" are no longer "progressive". Civility and understanding are always a good idea, but many here would rather work to change the system than "work together" to simply get more Democrats elected.

In 2004, we had heated discussions between supporters of the different candidates. That still exists, but I think part of what we're seeing now is different. This community (well, Skinner) will have to decide at some point if this forum will continue as a Democratic support site or a forum for progressive change.

I'm thinking that point is rapidly approaching.

The system is broken, yes... but it's all we have.

Slow change is the only change we'll get outside of outright revolution, that's just the way the world works. It took the right over 20 years to get us to this point... we won't reverse it all that quickly.

...it's not "all we have", most of the world does it differently.

In light of their performance as the majority in Congress, "Vote Dem" sounds eerily like "stay the course" at times...

Are Democrats generally more tolerable than Republicans? Yes.

That, however, is not a plan for change...it's perpetuating a system of "choose the lesser of the evils", and I think we have quite a few more people thinking along those lines than we did in 2004.

I know we have alternatives, but they aren't within our reach at this time. Anoter unfortunate reality.

I know exactly what you mean about the status quo... I feel that way myself quite often. These are very frustrating times.

thats the big problem on DU...
people just HAVE to be right...

to me its being no better than the people we are trying to get rid of... but people will/would even attack me for even saying that ...

the whole idea of being liberal is being open to all ideas and rationally debating/discussing things... not cheap shots and slander....

but if u say something on DU that everyone doesnt agree with, watch out.... you are instantly labled a right wing nut or something to that effect just because you dont agree COMPLETELY with someone else...
i got news for people...
we are all free thinking individuals with our own ideas of how things should be done ... and of course we are gonna have differences of opinion on somethings... but thats a good thing and we can LEARN from each other and find compromise somewhere in the middle...

thats whats so wrong with the country too... people dont want to compromise...
we've had 7 years of republicans doing whatever they want no matter what any of us think on the other side and thats the wrong way to go about things... you dont shun people for having different ideas... you can disagree thats great and fine... but then you gotta meet people in the middle and find common ground.

like i say, its just people being self righteous. and im tired of that. thats whats been destroying this country for a long time now.

its time to lay down the verbal fists and work together.

you are right,
united we stand, divided we fall.

theres a reason that slogan was so popular in colonial/revolution days...

understaning, compromise, and working together are ESSENTIAL to making a long lasting and peaceful society whether some people want to admit it or not.

people need to get over themselves. just because you think you are overly intelligent or even have pieces of paper to prove it, doesnt mean you are or are more so than anybody else on this forum.

:thumbsup:

effort

I think DU has reached a size, and maybe age, tipping-point. There used to be a set of core posters who everyone knew and who most people had a stake in being nice to, in impressing to some extent. There are still a few of those people who post regularly, but really not much of a sense of unity any more -- it's as if there are too many people now, and no one knows each other, and there's nothing to be lost in being an asshole. You know?

I've come here almost every day for a few years now, and I feel like I don't know anyone anymore! (I've always lurked more than posted, so I'm one of those people no one knows...)

The feeling started after Andy died, I think, if I had to put a date on it.

Also: our anger about the state of things and desire to change them has met with FAILURE for so long now, that many of us just don't give a shit about positive change anymore, all we want is to vent our frustration. I feel that way, though I don't really have the stomach for meanness. :hi: I kind of feel like we're standing around waiting for things to change on their own, and getting pissy that it's taking so long.

Thanks. :hi:

Unforgiving and intolerant. It is in almost every thread on any subject. I feel like I'm watching a train wreck on DU, and I don't know where the "community" feelings have gone. I'm not too sure they can return, either.

*sigh*

I'm not relating to this post, but that's because I spend much less time on DU than I originally did (due to work deadlines). It is very healthy to take a step back every other day or so. All I see is people being passionate and that doesn't worry me. But if I were spending a few hours everyday looking at the most "hot" posts, I'd probably be feeling the sky is falling too.

But I've noticed this situation getting worse for months.

And I don't think it's just here. I think it's something that's been going on in this country for a very long time, and for a few decades it seemed to be getting better... but now it's getting worse, fast.

I can't remember how many threads I've opened, that start with some issues-based thing about one candidate or another, and the next thing you know a couple of posters are going at it, impugning each others' motives, and there's a flamefest. I just stop reading the threads.

It is expected there will be disagreements, even heated disagreements during primary season. But this is getting ridiculous.

but this seems to be going on in threads about all kinds of subjects.

I had no idea you were a total bitch to everyone until I read this thread.

And to think we shared a Young Ones moment. That goddamn lounge suckered me into lowering my defenses.


California california california corn flakes california

:rofl:

Thank you. :loveya:

causing this bashing of the candidates to get a feud going. DU's should just stop right now with all the bashing and then....the real spies would stand out.

It won't change anyone's mind.

Many people are passionate about politics. And I'd venture to say that people who post to a discussion board ABOUT politics are even more passionate than normal. You're well-intentioned, but naive if you think people are going to discuss the pros and cons of candidates without getting fired up...especially as the race to the primaries heats up.

My feeling is, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. My feeling also is, if you're gonna get your feelings hurt by some anonymous clown on a discussion board, the internet is maybe not the place for you. When the Craig nonsense brought every last ignorant homophobe out of the many cracks in DU's walls, I took a break for a month or so. If the candidate infighting is getting to you that much, I'd advise you to do the same. Otherwise, just remember that it's no holds barred lunacy, strap yourself in, and enjoy the ride.

Once we start shouting and hurling insults... there's no more debate... discussion is lost... it becomes a waste of time.

And while I don't remember it precisely, I have a vague notion that I didn't feel you were very reasonable about it.

Having said that I will NOT invite you to the nearest mirror to gaze into, I will NOT entertain you with anecdotes concerning pots and kettles, and I will NOT say anything snarky about physicians self-healing powers.

What I will say is a hearty thank you. I agree with everything you said and I think we would all do well to attempt to be more civil and thoughtful in our conversations. No one wants to live in a cesspool.

I took the "Which Big Lebowski Character Are You?" test and got Sobchak.

:rofl:

I'm sorry for whatever it was I said to you... I know very well I'm quite capable of being mean and nasty. :hug:

And thanks. :)

Sid

Maybe... maybe it's me.

Eh... not as pointless as the Ellen threads at least. :P

I know that i find myself reacting in ways i regret, much too often lately.

Thanks for the reminder.

It goes beyond DU, the 'party' the nation-.

There is more than enough trouble in this world naturally, if we could only put our energies and efforts into making positive changes, perhaps we'd feel less need to strike out at each other.

:grouphug:

I'm a dreamer- but I'm not the only one- we all are dreamers at heart.

instead of immediately assuming the worst and hurling accusations. A little civil conversation could not only clear up misunderstandings, but it might actually give people a chance to think more deeply about their views. (Although, I suppose that would be a drag for posters who live for hit and run snark.)

The reactionary pouncing going on here turns many of the threads into circle jerks, and wastes time and energy that could go into trying to understand differences of opinion.

In other words, I agree with you RedQueen.

IMO, there are more hand-wringing threads here than things to wring about, and they are more annoying to me because I don't want to put the nice authors of them on the ignore list.

Really it's only a few assholes - and sometimes I think, flat-out disrupters. There's no way with a site with thousands and thousands of people on it not to have that element, I just focus on the positive, cuz there's a lot of positive.

And I've said much the same on occasion.

Thanks for the help seeing the positive side. :hi:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Right?

I'm truly sorry I was short / rude / nasty / mean. :hug:

I like to argue. But I also like to discuss. Some threads are good for arguing and some threads are good for discussing. If you wander into an arguing thread and you aren't an arguer, wander back out again. If you are in the mood for a good fight, stay out of the discussing threads. Most of all...don't carry a grudge. I think you should be able to argue like a...ummm...pitbull on one thread and be able to carry on a civil discussion in another one. Not all threads are created equal, nor are all people. Sometimes I learn the most from people I have fought the hardest with.

When I hit something stupid, I just get out of it.....but sometimes you learn from those threads too!

Censorship and lecturing really can't fix everything to be nice all the time for everybody anyhow - so we all just have to use the tools we have available to us (like the ignore list) and the presence of mind to reject arguments that are pointless, just get out of it.

There's always something good going on here - so why focus on the negative?

Blessed be the peacemaker. Good on you for trying. I think we all need to stick together and be nice to each other. Something I find wonderful about DU is the educational factor. I think it's one thing to try and provide facts and evidence but to personally attack each other is bullshit. We are all entitled to our POV and its great to share. Opinions are are like assholes, everybody has one. We don't need to be assholes to each other. We should keep our big tent open. Open to the searching, lost, and lonely. Something that I think about are the moderate Republicans who must be gut sick about the torture issues, the rendition flights, the loss of America's sons and daughters for Oil wars. They have to know that somethings rotten in Denmark. No one knows if Hillary will make them want to come into our tent or to run away from it. I just hope we can keep our own, Democrats, happy and to find room for Republicans, who can't stand Rashcovered Limpbaugh. Just because lots of us are analytical intellectuals who aren't religious doesn't mean that there are not plenty of church attending Democrats. Republicans, I invite you to join up with us, come to our Party, celebrate your love of Jesus, here and we'll show you how we all get along!!!! (Common guys, let's show 'em how we all get along) Nudge, nudge, umkay?

some time back, to the point where I had you on ignore?

Nah, that couldn't be. You're pure as the driven snow......

These days, anyone I notice who goes out of their way to post an OP that is nasty about ANY DEM right up front, that person goes on ignore. It's a useful function. The people that do this rarely contribute to useful discourse. I call them spam trolls.

and are VERY good at it.

Yep, including me.

Compassion seems to be saved for those issues that matter personally to the poster. Otherwise-forgetaboutit.

Yep, I'm cynical after years of this b.s.



Nice try though.

That is, I see all kinds of discussions. Generally they're not different from the early days. Admittedly, I don't read every thread, but I'm here nearly every day, spend 95% of my time in GD, and I have nobody on my ignore list. I laugh at the things they say about GD in the lounge.

I started here when there were 4,000 members. And I'll admit that I came to argue. But I'll also profess that I don't call people names, and I stick to the issues. Well mostly.

Confession: One of the first things I did here was get into a big fight with H2O Man. (Really.:blush: ) I'm sorry I did that, but not for anything I said. I think he remembers, but our communications since have been cordial. Subsequently, I was greatly influenced by Az, and though he doesn't know it, I think of him as a mentor. So, in all, my experience at DU has made me less hostile, I think. Or maybe I've gotten better at dealing with it, I think.

These are trying times, and DU is a place that focuses on the conflicts we face every day. The issues are sometimes grave, and generate heat. But I don't think the general tenor is very different. I get lots of good information here, learn something every time, rub elbows with some of the smartest and most talented people in the world. There are those who could be nicer, including myself. But generally this is a good place with good people and I like it. :)

--IMM

its is not your decision to determine what is nasty or not:

your own words: Divided we fall. The poster you were falling all over the place to defend in a California fire thread today ( alot of "us vs them" there from the OP) had some very unkind, unthoughtful, unnecessary, and unwelcomed words about people living and working in the Southeast US earlier this week. With no good reason other than they were living and working there, as far as I can tell.

Someone has to stand up to that kind of stuff. And i will use any words that i have to. sorry

As far as hostility, I don't see nearly enough.

Don't worry too much about the sparring. It's actually healthier to get it out here, amongst ourselves. Besides, there are some things we need to be fighting about, because the future of our party and our world is at stake. Better that we resolve this now, on our own terms, than this time next year.

I have two 10-month-old puppies. They're sisters. They react the same way to almost everything and are practically synchronized in their movements.
They do evrerything together.

Took them for a walk this afternoon, stopped to chat with a neighbor. Across the street was another dog whose owner had also stopped to talk
with someone. My puppies were madly straining at their leashes while I was holding them back with all my strength and trying to carry on a conversation.
They pulled so hard, for so long, that they started to gag themselves and then - here comes the weird part - when they finally realized that there's no way
they were going to get across the street and over-power that other dog, they turned on each other and started viciously biting each other's heads.

I was horrified! They were insane - my two sweet little girl puppies! - acting as though they wanted to kill each other. It was all I could do to tear them apart
and drag them home. I was more shocked than embarassed. (As of this writing, we are still not speaking!)

Here's my point: for how long have we been barking, whining and begging for someone to let us get at those damned Republicans, in order to save the world?
We have wrung our hands. We've tried righteous indignation. We've gotten angry, and nipped at their heels - but nothing, nothing, nothing has allowed us
in all this time to land the solid kind of punch we're yearning for. Then we had the election - yippee! We're in!!! We're gonna rock this country back to health!!!

Or...not? Not yet, not so fast, not now, not tomorrow. Who can take it any more? The painful list of disappointments and set-backs has become too long for many
of us to even have the energy to talk about. We all know it by heart. We celebrate every crumb we get - Pete Stark's my new hero! - and then have to gulp when
even that crumb is knocked out of our begging palms. We've commiserated with each other till there's nothing left to say. So: what do we do?

We take a deep breath, and start biting each other's heads off.

give up on the political "good fight" against the rethugs, and all that's left is to tear each other down. Not a pleasant prospect.

Agent Provocateurs.
And for those that think THIS isn't a big enough place to give their attention to, when you consider how many people link to and from here, as well as our membership, it's a pretty good dent in the grassroots.
The Agent Provocateurs always tend to push the corporate candidate and do everything in their power to attempt to dilute the populist/progressive message.

If you go through the threads, you'll see examples of someone posting a rumor/lie with numerous posters agreeing with it. Then, someone comes along and completely debunks it, and the people who originally agreed continue to agree in spite of the debunking

"... but it seems like lately far too many people are just spoiling for a fight from the start. Nasty posts & responses, defensive posts & responses, ignoring what's said and reacting with hostility because of what some other people said before that's similar to what's being said now... it's got to the point now where it's just ridiculous."

I just went off on another thread in just that way. It's why I have a low post count - I shoot first and ask questions later. I usually go back and tone down what I said, but I can't stand when a mild reasoned post - especially one that is merely opinion - is met with hostility or, like you said, someone itching for a fight. I don't react well. I wish I had an internal post alert that forced me to open a thread, read a response to something I said, and the board wouldn't allow me to post a reply until after an hour had elapsed. I'd be forced to fidget, then calm down. LOL, that would work. Alas, I have no internal posting limitations. I have a hair-trigger finger when attacked, and I pull it.

But you are right, and thanks for posting it.

I personally Had a long week. Then had the pleasure of finally turning on my computer in the middle of the week to a veritable clown car of "screw those rich m-fers in Sandiego...they deserve it hahahahaah" threads. Then the capper...I turn on the news and see this:



Jane Harman, Democrat District 36 in California. Is she talking about the wildfires? HELL NO. She is positively beaming about her traiterous let's just shred the constitution into istsy bitsy pieces bill that she sponsored passing! :woohoo:

So yeah..,you'll have to forgive me if I'm a little cranky right now...