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Mandatory Gardasil Truth from Fiction Thread #2: "Merck Says It's NOT a Cancer Drug."

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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:14 AM
Original message
Mandatory Gardasil Truth from Fiction Thread #2: "Merck Says It's NOT a Cancer Drug."
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 11:12 AM by The Cleaner
The next bit of misinformation on this board regarding Gardasil is that it's a cervical cancer drug. But is this really true?

On its official Gardasil website, Merck explains:


GARDASIL is the only vaccine that may help guard against diseases that are caused by human papillomavirus (HPV) Types 6, 11, 16, and 18:

• Cervical cancer
• Cervical abnormalities that can sometimes lead to cervical cancer
• Genital warts

HPV Types 16 and 18 cause 70% of cervical cancer cases, and HPV Types 6 and 11 cause 90% of genital warts cases.

IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT GARDASIL

GARDASIL may not fully protect everyone and does not prevent all types of cervical cancer, so it is important to continue regular cervical cancer screenings...GARDASIL will not treat these diseases and will not protect against diseases caused by other types of HPV.


Edited to add:

And from the National Institutes of Health:


HPV is very common, however, and of the more than 100 types of HPV, fewer than 20 are considered "high-risk" for the development of cancer...while HPV infections are very common, cervical cancer is not. The vast majority of HPV infections go away without treatment and do not cause cervical cancer.

http://newscenter.cancer.gov/newscenter/benchmarks-vol2-issue4/page2


To me that slaps Merck, and Rick Perry's executive order mandating Gardasil, right in the ASS!

Edited to concede the fact that NIH cites HPV as "the major cause of cervical cancer," although some cases do exist where HPV is not a factor.

What we are being told - or at the least what has been confused - is that by making Gardasil mandatory (in the case of Texas), it will save lives by obliterating cervical cancer itself. That is a misperception.

So as you can see, Gardasil is NOT a "cancer vaccine." It is a vaccine against certian types of HPV which, according to the NIH quote above, may or may not eventually cause cancer.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Did you read what you posted? It answered at least one of your questions.
The question is, what percentage of the population contracts cervical cancer as a result of HPV

HPV Types 16 and 18 cause 70% of cervical cancer cases

So, what you're saying is that because it only deals with the cause of 70% of cervical cancer cases (and not 100%), we should just ignore it? Tell that to the 70%.

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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Those are only two types of HPV. What about the others?
And what about the cases of cervical cancer NOT caused by HPV? That's what I'm getting at, and your response proves my point.

We are hearing nothing about what percentage of the population contracts cervical cancer with no HPV present, thus falsely leading us all to believe that all cervical cancers are caused by HPV.

It could well be that more cervical cancers are diagnosed with no HPV present. If that's the case, then making Gardasil mandatory would seem a wasted effort, clearly designed to fatten Merck's bottom line.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. You cannot be serious.
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 11:01 AM by TwilightZone
Do the math. It's all right there in your post.

HPV Types 16 and 18 cause 70% of cervical cancer cases

Gee, that would seem to mean that *at most* 30% of cervical cancer is caused by factors other than HPV 16 & 18, right?

100 - 70 = 30.

See? That wasn't so hard.

We are hearing nothing about what percentage of the population contracts cervical cancer with no HPV present

"We" see the answer clearly stated in your posting. "You" somehow have completely missed the utterly obvious.

Again, 100% - 70% = 30%. So, quite obviously, no more than 30% of cervical cancer is caused by non-HPV 16/18 factors.

Edit: clarification
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Your answer is in my post # 4 below... n/t
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Anyone who has been paying attention knows....
...that Merck makes no such claim about Gardasil preventing ALL forms of cervical cancer. It also makes it clear that the vaccine will not replace annual exams or Pap smears. If people willfully ignore those caveats, then that is on them. Not Merck.

Some protection against any kind of cancer is better than none. If this were about lung cancer, colon cancer, or any other cancer that strikes the population as a whole, any vaccine that provided any percentage of protection would be hailed as a significant medical breakthrough and people would be out the door at their doctors' offices getting it.

Moreover, given that HPV is a sexually transmitted disease, any kind of protection against that is worth it as well. You could remain a virgin until your wedding night but that is no guarantee that the person you sleep with has. Real-life example with another vaccine: In my private life I am at extremely low risk (almost nil) of contracting Hepatitis B. However, in my job I come in contact at times with many people who may have it, namely, with their body fluids. So I have gotten the Hep B series of shots, and am now protected. To be sure, that does not protect me against other diseases I may contract, but at least I know I am protected against *one* of them. So it is with Gardasil and some types of HPV.

I will concede one point. Making Gardasil mandatory for school attendance is a bit of an overkill, and I believe the decision to have their kids vaccinated with it should remain with the parents. But it is also overkill, I think, to discount Gardasil out of hand as some here and elsewhere are hellbent on doing.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. Classical distinction without a difference.
If it immunizes against a virus with a strong direct link to the cervical cancer, it may not be a "cancer vaccine" but it will still serve to prevent occurences of the cancer.

As for the "MAY be the cause" well.. um the science is a little bit stronger than that. As I said, distinction without a difference.
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Wrong again...
An HPV vaccine such as Gardasil will serve to prevent SOME occurences of cervical cancer. This vaccine does not eradicate ALL types of HPV, as the OP outlines. That's why they encourage women to continue to get regular checkups.

And what about cases where cervical cancer is detected with no HPV present?
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Apparently, there aren't any.
Or very few. See the item posted by hlthe2b below.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Picky, picky. (Flippant, but deserved.)
You seem to think that unless a given medical remedy is a 100% cure in all cases that it's a fraud upon the public. The reason Merck can't go claiming it's a 'cancer vaccine' is because even though it's a vaccine against cancer, it is not, medically speaking, technically speaking, a 'cancer vaccine'... and my stance is, and your point is what? As for your point here about, well look, it doesn't eradicate all types of HPV, and your point is what?... That a vaccine that is truthfully claimed to attack a virus, should instead attack the cancer itself, or else it's not a vaccine at all? There is no cancer vaccine because cancer is not a virus. There is no virus called cancer. So what.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
33. Actually, there IS a "cancer vaccine" for melanoma, IIRC. It's used to TREAT
melanoma. But it's not technically a vaccine, because there's no virus involved. It stimulates immunity against the actual cancer cells. But I'm sure the OP knows nothing of this, and couldn't comprehend those big words anyway.
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
75. YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG THAN YOU ARE NOW.
In 1999, my mother died of malignant melanoma. Ironically she worked for the National Cancer Institute at NIH in Bethesda. She accepted a trial of the melanoma vaccine and at that time, unfortunately, it only served to make her cancer worse. Hopefully they've improved it by now.

No hard feelings...but sometimes ya just never know.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
86. Are you saying that because it doesn't work all the time it is useless?
Because it doesn't prevent ALL cervical cancer it should be not used? Of course people should still get checkups.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. HPV associated with 99.7% of ALL cervical cancers//
Recent studies have shown that HPV-DNA can be found in 99.7% of all
cervical carcinomas, with HPV types 16, 18, 45 and 31 being the most
frequent.2,4–7 It has now been proven beyond reasonable doubt that infection
with an HR-HPV is a necessary prerequisite for the development of
cervical cancer,
and the World Health Organization (WHO) has declared
HPV16 and HPV18 as carcinogenic agents for humans.

the full pdf text of this article is publically available:
http://www.cancerscreening.nhs.uk/cervical/publications/nhscsp22.pdf


*********************************************************************************

Additional References: (available through most university and medical school libraries)
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Nice work.
I'm sitting on the sidelines on this argument today.
:yourock:
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I did yesterday... too busy, but I could NOT let this pass
The mistruths being disseminated with such intensity, consistency, vehemence... I continue to ask WHY?
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Why? Because a pharma corp stands to make money off public health.
That's just not considered right, somehow.

Me? I just wanna know if the damned thing works.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. re: "I just wanna know if the damned thing works..."
One might think that would be the important issue, but it seems to have been lost in some discussions...:shrug:
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Seems To????
The efficacy is being tossed aside in a RISK!!!!!!!!!/(benefit) discussion. Geez, life is risk, ain't it?
The Professor
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Hey, ProfessorGAC
Glad to have you back weighing in again...

Unfortunately to some the motto is "Facts, Facts, we don't need no stinking facts (nor data, or statistics or published studies, or science--just assertions and accusations)
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. "Truth from fiction", indeed.
:)
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Actually, I Do Understand The One Anti-Position
The state mandate, rather than a "we'll pay for it if you want your child to have it" approach is sticking in some people's throats. I actually completely understand that.

The objection to a vaccine because it isn't 100% efficacious seems short-sighted. And, the causation of vaccination to many other illnesses, absent the data regarding the diagnostic enhancements in identifying these maladies is scientifically disingenuous. So, out of the three common objections, i only buy into the first. The rest seem specious.
The Professor
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. That's why it is a Federal recommendation, not requirement...
and a state decision whether to include it in school entry requirements.. Those who argue against a mandate should be addressing this with their state houses and state representatives..

Having said that, if the goal is to reduce cervical cancer among women, vaccinating a handful of females (and eventually males) will not be sufficient... Population-based immunity (so, called "herd health") does not work that way. So what is being weighed is the public health benefits against individual libertarian rights. I understand and appreciate BOTH sides of this argument. I only wish that it could be a "clean" argument, devoid of spurious accusations and assertions.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I think that, for many, the fact that Merck is involved supercedes all other arguments.
Merck is, of course, the epitome of "big pharm", so some people seem to assume that the only motivation is money.

I won't argue that Merck isn't seeing the profit potential, but that doesn't automatically mean that the process or the product is flawed.

It's difficult to put a price on human suffering. Some AIDS/HIV drugs have historically been ridiculously expensive and have certainly made some pharmaceutical companies a lot of money. Does that mean that they shouldn't have been developed, tested, or used? Nope.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Thanks for the link. Obviously, the connection is quite clear.
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 10:50 AM by TwilightZone
If HPV is a prerequisite to cervical cancer and Gardasil prevents HPV, then Gardasil is effectively an anti-cancer drug. Semantics aside, of course.

Edit: typo
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. Sigh.
NIH says "HPV is the major cause of cervical cancer." But they also say of the 100 types of HPV, fewer than 20 are considered high risk for cervical cancer.

Lastly, they say the "vast majority" of HPV infections go away without treatment and NO NOT CAUSE CERVICAL CANCER.

Re-read my updated OP.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. YOu asked what proportion of cervical cancer was caused by
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 11:07 AM by hlthe2b
HPV infection. I answered. So, now you assert that was NOT the question?

When you box yourself in, don't admit your error, just change the question/assertion....:rofl:
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. What's your point?
HPV causes cervical cancer.

Gardasil prevents HPV.

What part of that do you not understand?

As far as your "updated" OP, I'm not sure that even you know what your point is anymore. If you're saying that we shouldn't use Gardasil because it prevents both cancer-causing HPV and non-cancer-causing HPV, I'd have to disagree.

But then, you're apparently the expert at "good" and "bad" HPV. What's the benefit to keeping the "good" HPV strains along with the "bad"?
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. I'm just offering a diffent point of view.
Sometimes things aren't as cut and dry as they seem. In the medical establishment absolute certainties aren't always the case. For example, doctors will even tell you that each person's cancer is slightly different then the next, and may require different treatment, etc.

Anyway we all learn from each other, hell I even conceded a point in my OP. :)
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. So now you are advocating the "Russian Roulette" approach
for the daughters, nieces, women of the world.

HPV infection is associated with 99.7% of all cervical cancer. SO, because some HPV infections do not go on to result in cancer-- instead of preventing primary infection with HPV via vaccine-- you would opt for women to bet on the chance that the infection will not progress?


Is this REALLY what you want to argue?
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Just look at what NIH says:
From the quote in my OP:

while HPV infections are very common, cervical cancer is not. The vast majority of HPV infections go away without treatment and do not cause cervical cancer.
:shrug:
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. So, again, YOU are willing to play Russian Roulette with the girls
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 11:48 AM by hlthe2b
and women of this country, rather than offer primary protection against a deadly threat. As a male (at least from your profile), do you not feel just a wee bit disingenuous arguing for that?
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. No, I'm not saying that. Why do so many jump to conclusions?
I'm just presenting another point of view...take a step back and examine ALL the facts surrounding this issue. That's what I'm saying.

Weigh the evidence. Read the full article from NIH I posted in my OP. Then make a decision based on ALL the facts.

It just seems so many here have jumped to conclusions and are basing their pro-Gardasil stance on pure emotion.
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catabryna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. And, for those of us who aren't...
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 11:50 AM by catabryna
a part of the "vast majority"? Having been through a colposcopy and cryotherpy back in the mid-80's for the presence of stage IV pre-cancerous cervical cells, also known as dysplasia, let me tell you that no woman would want to go through this if there is a chance it could be prevented. The virus itself and/or the treatment, also caused my infertility. Had I not had regular gynocological visits, it might not have been caught in time. At the age of 22, I asked what could have caused my problem. The response was, probably a virus of some sort. They knew even back then.

So, what do you suggest? Keeping my legs closed, perhaps? Problem is, that doesn't always work. I got an HPV from my first husband and, trust me, that is the ONLY place I could have gotten it. Would you want something like this to happen to your daughter? Women can be chaste, but if the men haven't been, the chance is always there. Sucks, doesn't it? I hope that they can eventually come up with a vaccination for boys, as well, so that their early promiscuity doesn't affect the health of their future partners.

ETA: My guess is that, if this virus could potentially lead to a man's dick shriveling up, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. I'm sorry...
I'm just quoting from the National Institutes of Health, and that's what they came up with.

Many people here think that people raising questions about Gardasil are anti-vaccine. But you know what? I would vaccinate my daughters (if I had daughters) for sure. But I would sincerely hope that vaccination would be opt-in rather than mandatory through an anti-democratic executive order. And it's for that reason that I would still raise questions about this if it were men who were affected rather than women.
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catabryna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. I can see your point about the opt-in position...
but, that didn't appear to be the crux of your initial post.

And, I also wanted to clarify, that when I made the comment about men and their appendages, I wasn't specifically referring you or to the discussion we are having here on DU. I was referring to all the bureaucrats at the FDA and others along the way who have done their best to try and prevent this vaccine from being approved to begin with. THAT has nothing to do with opt-in/opt-out policies.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
35. Looks just as flimsy as the argument that humans are behind Global Warming.
;-D
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
47. Meanwhile, GARDASIL protects against exactly TWO strains of HPV that
are associated with cervical cancer among a small minority of women who contract these HPV strains, typically many, many years after they are first exposed to these strains.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. You've ADMITTED that some of your anti-vaccine posts are written by a tombstoned disruptor...
You have NO credibilty. None.

Any opinions you express on this subject should logically
be dismissed out-of-hand.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. LOGICALLY dismissed out of hand?
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. Yes. Your admitted sock-puppetry shows you are unfit to participate in serious discussion.
Your persistent habit of 'pretending to miss the point'
doesn't improve your credibility either.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Yes, also claimed to teach at a medical school, while saying HPV was not "infectious" because
it was sexually transmitted, LOL.

No credibility.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Oh my... I missed those posts!
LORDY!
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Check your inbox
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. He didn't actually say that???????
OMG

Not infectious because it's an STD..........O-M-F-G
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Here
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 05:25 PM by Mayberry Machiavelli
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. I gave up on the threads, lol.
Do these three nuts get paid by Merck's competitors, perhaps, to slander Gardasil morning, noon, and night??????

They seem to be working together.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #80
87. Thank you for the links. Helps me decide who to debate.
So a Med school professor says STDs aren't infectious? Oooookay. Wow. Missed the sockpuppet TS'd disruptor though.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. Oh, he most certainly did. So funny, it almost wasn't sad.
Almost.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #58
84. Funny you bring that up and then post about different vaccine that Merck worked on
Shall we add hypocrisy to the list of things you have demonstrated on these threads?
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. And these women do NOT deserve protection against these
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 04:22 PM by hlthe2b
strains and the risk of deadly cancer, exactly WHY?

When your goose is gored and YOU feel at risk, I'm guessing you'll not be questioning whether YOU deserve the chance to protect yourself.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
62. way to go with data!
You go girl. That ought give some of our sock puppet friends something to chew on!! I was trying to stay away today (some fatigue). Still hope a can get some good info on adjuvents at least since I see that nonsense was yet again brought forth.:yourock:
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. the Lancet article on alum adjuvants is the best I've seen
But someone already posted that and did nothing to quiet the storm among the few.. I'm guessing no matter of facts, data, published studies will do so.. "Faith Based Medicine" I guess (and that is no slam against any religion...

Welcome back to the unending anti-vaccine wars...turtlesue
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. you might find this interesting why I was off site most of today
someone sent me a thread about some goings on in the biotech industry. One of my former employers just got sold by the giant company that bought them out a few years ago to some sort of investment company that I believe is going to break them up into pieces putting 700 jobs in jeopardy. They do vaccine work btw which is why I bring this up. The parent company more or less said that my old companie's lack of profits were dragging them down so they jettisoned them. I was listening to alot of very very very upset bloggers who hate the parent company intensely. I will not name them but they are far far worse on money grubbing than Merck. So we can see that vaccine work is soooo profitable that many researchers in the field have their jobs in jeopardy!!!:grr:
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. not surprised...
most vaccine manufacturing has gone overseas and thus the season flu vaccine shortages we've had in years past... A real pity, too as some who scream against vaccines today will surely wake up to be among the masses crying for them in the future...
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
25. GARDASIL IS NOT A DRUG OF ANY KIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a BIOLOGICAL.
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 11:33 AM by kestrel91316
It is a vaccine (that's another term for a biological). It stimulates immunity. It is NOT a pharmaceutical (aka drug)!!!!!!!!!! When someone blatantly misuses these terms it is prima facia evidence of their ignorance and automatically disqualifies them from writing about the subject, IMHO.

God, I hate when ignorant people write about things they know nothing about.

Edit to add:
The ability to point and click and cut and paste ALSO does not qualify one to write about a subject. It really is true that a little bit of knowlege is a very dangerous thing. Especially in the hands of pompous folks with hermetically sealed minds.

Edit to add more:
The Gardasil vaccine is as revolutionary and as wonderful a thing as the Feline Leukemia Virus vaccine has been for over 20 years. Prior to its development, it was a normal part of everyday practice to diagnose, "treat" (without success), and euthanize or watch die cats who had been infected, sometimes YEARS before, with FeLV. Eventually the virus did its dirty work and caused either a blod dyscrasia or some sort of CANCER that we could not cure.

Thanks to this vaccine, I RARELY see FeLV cats anymore. The nature of feline practice has completely changed, for the better. One BAD DISEASE is a thing of the dim past for most vets. But I remember. How the hell could I ever forget? And how the hell could I, or any educated person, fail to see how HPV is just another of these nasty killers that we have a chance to banish?

SHAME on the people who don't want this vaccine available FOR ANYONE (because that's what this is really about, folks). SHAME!!!!!
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. LOL...
that and about a thousand other aspects of their argument...
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Yeah. And read my edit/rant.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. I needed you guys yesterday
:silly:
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catabryna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. LOL!
Sorry, I had other things going on yesterday!
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. I can't stand wilfully ignorant medical posts, so I have been avoiding
most of the Gardasil conflict.

There really ought to be some rules:
If you don't understand the difference between a drug and a vaccine you can't post about either.
If you don't understand the difference between treatment and prevention you can't post about either.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
65. slight alteration
need to understand the difference between drug, vaccine and CHEMICAL.
I swear to god some people think vaccines are Mercury injections or some such.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
48. So injected alum is "biological"?
Vaccines adjuvants are not biological. They are very pharmacologically active substances.

A recent study has shown that alum injections cause neural death in mice:

http://www.straight.com/article/vaccines-show-sinister-side
http://tinyurl.com/3xhtdz
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Don't presume to lecture me on things you know nothing about.
Vaccines are CLASSIFIED as biologicals, not pharmaceuticals.

Here, I did some of your homework for you:

http://www.google.com/search?q=biologicals+vaccines&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

http://www.gsk-bio.com/webapp/index.jsp

http://www.who.int/biologicals/en/

http://www.google.com/search?q=pharmaceuticals&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

I'm done. Do the reading yourself.

And I'll remind you never to try to tell someone with a BS in Microbiology and a DVM, both from a top American university, what's what with vaccines. I have learned and forgotten more than you could ever begin to comprehend.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Oh, I see. Well, Joe Lieberman is CLASSIFIED as a Democrat.
That and a real Democrat will get you one person who is not a cheerleader for Bush.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. so anybody who is pro Gardisil is a cheerleader
for Bush? Thats just plain wrong and you know it.:grr:
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #57
79. Do you mean to imply that the Gardasil vaccine, for reasons
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 05:25 PM by kestrel91316
known only to you, is a vaccine but not a biological????????????????????????????????????????

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Ok. Care to explain THAT logic?

(crickets chirping..........)
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
52. Okay I stand corrected, it's a VACCINE, not a drug.
See? We all learn something out of these debates. :)

I am not anti-vaccine. I would actually vaccinate my daughters if I had any. I'm just bringing some new information into this debate that I hope will be considered.

I am, however, totally against the way this has come about in Texas. Rick Perry's executive order was made with no debate, no votes, and no voice of the people - anti-democratic. Furthermore Perry fast-tracked it's implementation.

More has come out on this board today regarding Merck's huge losses due to billion dollar settlements both here and in Canada. Factor this in with Perry's CLOSE TIES with Merck and that Merck is one of Perry's largest campaign donors and...well...I don't have to tell you.

I think Perry has his mind set on saving Merck, not the children of Texas.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Please show me where in the TX law it says children will be forced
against their parents' wishes to receive this vaccine.

I'm not being snarky (for once). I am quite serious. If it's in there, show me.
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. Ay. The same 'ol thing. In TX, Rick Perry signed an executive order mandating Gardasil.
No votes, no debate, no will of the people.

Mandatory means you HAVE TO get it. If you don't want to for religious or philosophical reasons, you must request an affadavit, fill it out for each child, have it notarized, then send it back to the State for approval. This is called "opting out."

I may be wrong on this, BUT - I think there are some schools that will not permit students who have not been vaccinated. Again I may be wrong but I believe I came across some info along those lines yesterday.

The argument is: why do people have to opt-out when it should be opt-in.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
82. Show me ONE public school that would deny entry to any child
who has not received an STD vaccine. We're not talking about the common cold here.

Opting out is fine with me. NO ONE is being forced to receive the vaccine.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. I am glad those of us who are driving ourselves nuts with this
argument are actually accomplishing something!! I think that you make many good points about Perry and Merck ties and motivations. But there is soo much crap flying around that the REAL issues are lost. There is alot of misinformation being spread around and many of us feel like its our responsibility to put a stop to that, despite the fact that I am not the only one getting a headache from going round and round on this. Staying strictly on your point is fine. But certain people seem to have an agenda here and clouding the issue. Seriously it makes it worth it to me, after the last few days of this, to say that you have learned something!:loveya:
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
59. yeah!! couldn't put it better myself!!
This daily stuff is wearying isn't it. And as a cat lover I really apreciate that particular vaccine too!!:)
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
27. People's illogic really amazes me sometimes.
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 11:30 AM by depakid
And makes me even more anxious to leave this country when I get the chance. This isn't an issue in other countries- like Australia, Britain and Canada.

The logic is simple:

70% of cervical cancers are caused by the variants of HPV that this vaccine protects against.

By conferring immunity to infection, the vaccine will protect girls and women from 70% of the cervical cancers that women are currently getting. QED.

Posts like this are exactly why we need such laws- to protect our kids from prevantable diseases- and from people who are paranoid and/or confused.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Amen. n/t
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. But should those laws come via executive order with no votes and no debate?
That's the question.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. NO! Absolutely NOT! We don't want health policy dictated unilaterally by a governor! n/t
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
76. The debate, in matters of public health comes from the worldwide
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 05:13 PM by depakid
scientific community.

Someone raised the analogy to global warming- which while a bit over broad illustrates the point. There's a long and arduous procedure for researching and approving vaccines, and I trust the scientific results.

Too many Americans don't. I wish it weren't an issue- but it is, and so sometimes we have to have laws in place.

The isn't a new issue btw:

See: JACOBSON v. COM. OF MASSACHUSETTS, 197 U.S. 11 (1905).

Facts of the Case

A Massachusetts law allowed cities to require residents to be vaccinated against smallpox. Cambridge adopted such an ordinance, with some exceptions. Jacobson refused to comply with the requirement and was fined five dollars.

Question

Did the mandatory vaccination law violate Jacobson's Fourteenth Amendment right to liberty?

Conclusion

The Court held that the law was a legitimate exercise of the state's police power to protect the public health and safety of its citizens. Local boards of health determined when mandatory vaccinations were needed, thus making the requirement neither unreasonable nor arbitrarily imposed.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/case/?case=1901-1939/1904/1904_70
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
83. And here we have the gear shift!
Debunk the medical RW BS, switch to concerned citizens group that happens to be a RW front.

Go back to another scare tactic involving a strawman about whether its a cancer vaccine, get nailed on it. Switch to government overbearance.

You have a while to catch up with stickfdog though. He's already onto other vaccines that have problems.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
31. ack ack ack

The straw is just a-flyin' today, eh?

The next bit of misinformation on this board regarding Gardasil is that it's a cervical cancer drug. But is this really true?

I give up. Are you reading a crystal ball? Someone is going to say that Gardasil is a cervical cancer drug, and you're just pre-empting?

Do a little search, and see how many times I, just for starters, have said IT IS NOT A DRUG.

"Merck Says It's NOT a Cancer Drug."

Whew, they sure do have some smarties there at Merck. If they announce tomorrow that when you drop something it falls down, I'd recommend that Merck be put in charge of that Big World Government and sort us all out.

What we are being told - or at the least what has been confused - is that by making Gardasil mandatory (in the case of Texas), it will save lives by obliterating cervical cancer itself. That is a misperception.

I'd have to say you're right. That's one big misperception you've got there. At least, that would be one word for it, if one were feeling charitable.

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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
39. Thank you, Cleaner -- keep it up! And Perry's dictatorial methods should be questioned by all n/
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
46. Misinfo alright. Every day its a new talking point with you.
I guess I should be happy that at the very least you're not relying on bogus rw BS.

"What we are being told - or at the least what has been confused - is that by making Gardasil mandatory (in the case of Texas), it will save lives by obliterating cervical cancer itself."

Really? Where has anyone said that?

"That is a misperception."

No its a strawman.
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Yay! Somebody recognizes this issue isn't RW!!
:bounce:

Anyway it's been called a "cervical cancer vaccine" in the news and virtually everywhere else. It's not difficult for people to begin to believe it. But in reality it's an HPV vaccine. That is the difference, and it's not a straw man. Whether you are for or against this issue, this is just plain fact.

I remember when this thing was announced. They cited it as a cancer vaccine. The impression people are left with is that it cures, or otherwise protects against, ALL forms of cervical cancer. That's what I'm getting at here. That's the debate.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Are you upset about the polio vaccine?
After all, it doesn't really treat polio, it affects the virus that causes polio.

:eyes:
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. That's a pretty hefty dose of flip-flopping you are doing
The ONLY ones in this debate who have referred to the HPV vaccine as a "cervical cancer" vaccine...are the ones who have been on your side.:eyes:
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. He seems to be having difficulty figuring out exacly WHAT he's talking about.
When he isn't swinging wildly at strawmen, he's moving the goal posts.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
54. And water fluoridation does not prevent all cavities
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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-15-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
71. Your post is misleading
Edited on Thu Feb-15-07 04:43 PM by booley
Which considering you are claiming you have the truth, it's a bit ironic that you seem to be trying to decieve us.

Your headline read "Merck Says It's NOT a Cancer Drug."

But that IS NOT what Merck said according to your own sourcing. What they said was "GARDASIL may not fully protect everyone and does not prevent all types of cervical cancer.."

Not being a cancer drug and being a drug that only help with some types of cancer causing virii are not the same thing.

And then you go onto say "Edited to concede the fact that NIH cites HPV as "the major cause of cervical cancer," although some cases do exist where HPV is not a factor."

But who claimed that ALL cases of cervical cancer are caused by HPV? And you miss and rather important part..lots of cervical cancer cases are caused by HPV, including the one that Guardisil targets.

Drinking orange juice also wont' make you immune from cancer, but it sill helps. A flue shot wont' keep you safe from all forms of the flu, but that doesnt' mean it's ineffective.

I admit, I am not a doctor. I do not have a PhD in Biology. But I can read and I can recognize when someone's sources are contradicting what they are claiming and when they are making bad arguements.

That you keep making so blatently fallacouse arguements and try to mislead (dare i say LIE?) about what Merck and the NIH actually said makes your arguements weak all by themselves.
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