Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Former Navy SEAL Instructor Offers Another Waterboarding Primer for Mukasey

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 12:49 PM
Original message
Former Navy SEAL Instructor Offers Another Waterboarding Primer for Mukasey
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004617.php

Former Navy SEAL Instructor Offers Another Waterboarding Primer for Mukasey
By Spencer Ackerman - October 31, 2007, 1:27PM

So Michael Mukasey's new line is that waterboarding may be "repugnant," but he's not sure if the Spanish-Inquisition-era torture technique is illegal. Or, to put it another way, he can't say for sure if the practice is illegal until he's confirmed as attorney general.

Mukasey should listen to longtime counterterrorism expert Malcolm Nance. Nance, a veteran of counterterrorism operations in Iraq, has written a moving post for the counterinsurgency blog Small Wars Journal explaining, in more detail than anyone else has in public, what exactly waterboarding is. And Nance knows what he's talking about. As an instructor at the Navy's training program for its special forces, Nance (full disclosure, a TPMm pal) confesses that he "personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people" -- not detainees, of course, but would-be SEALs, so they could learn how (hopefully) to resist torture. That training program, known as Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape (SERE), became a template for how to abuse detainees in U.S. custody.

Nance's experience leads him to some sharp conclusions:

1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.

2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.

Call it “Chinese Water Torture,” “the Barrel,” or “the Waterfall,” it is all the same. Whether the victim is allowed to comply or not is usually left up to the interrogator. Many waterboard team members, even in training, enjoy the sadistic power of making the victim suffer and often ask questions as an after thought. These people are dangerous and predictable and when left unshackled, unsupervised or undetected they bring us the murderous abuses seen at Abu Ghraieb, Baghram and Guantanamo. No doubt, to avoid human factors like fear and guilt someone has created a one-button version that probably looks like an MRI machine with high intensity waterjets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. If he's not sure if torture is illegal
Isn't that alone enough to disqualify him as AG?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. one can hope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Yes, but I suspect some pukey Dems will join the 'pukes in lockstep
to confirm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Maybe he should have it done to himself so he can decide.
Same with "it's a no brainer" Cheney.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Let's test it on a loved one, not on Mukasey himself
so he can get the full effect. It might be too distracting to ask him to decide if he passes out from near asphyxiation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. Interesting link!
Just reading that got my "fight-or-flight" chemicals pumping a bit. Certainly doesn't seem debatable, does it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. it is up for study in Muck-Muky's mind
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. And there you have it....
although it may have been a tad more helpful for Nance to have accompanied his piece with pretty pictures. The level of mentality that supports the technique are not cognitively capable of understanding its harm without pictures.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThePowerofWill Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. I am soooo glad a Seal is saying this.
One of the talking points i've heard bantered around lately is that "our own soldiers go through it". Sure some do, but it's voluntary, and is specialized training to learn to endure such tactics if captured.

This kinda helps deflate that talking point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is the best explanation of waterboarding I've seen.
Edited on Wed Oct-31-07 03:55 PM by SimpleTrend
Any sane person would conclude it is torture.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. Michael Mukasey is not fit to be in any position in our government
if he thinks and acts like the horrid people who America defeated in WWII. How can we expect "JUSTICE" of any sort, from a man who places his loyalty to Bush and Cheney and the GOP enablers, over basic human rights? This "man" doesn't even know right from wrong. Most children are taught right from wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. The AG, all senior members of the executive branch, the relevant
congressional oversight committes, the joint chiefs and the top generals of each branch of the service should have to personally undergo any technique deemed acceptable for use by our government or military.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. I will bet that if Mukasey were waterboarded, he would take 10 seconds or less
to tell us all that

IT'S TORTURE!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demgurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here is what waterboarding entails.......
http://current.com/pods/controversy/PD04399

It was posted here when this clip first came out but I think it should be repeated. In fact, I am going off to make a thread just for the clip. This is not for the faint of heart but it will convince you it is torture. Everyone should have to watch this clip.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
17. ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. Aren't there ways to resist this technique, at least briefly?
What about holding your breath? Closing your mouth to help in closing off the glottis?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC