Had a moment with a recruiter today.

My son is already in and I am quite proud of his accomplishments thus far. I am a veteran myself. Anyway, I was talking to his recruiter about my son coming back on leave and giving a talk to my school, the principal asked. I don't know if my son could carry the whole assembly so I asked the recruiter to come along, too. As we talked he, the recruiter, brought up the army from ten years ago, the army that I belonged to, and said how hurting they were for equipment under Clinton. I brought him back to reality by telling him that Clinton was only continuing the draw down started by Bush I and his defense secretary, a guy named Cheney. Then he talked about how the maintenance programs were lacking for parts during this time and I told him of course they were the entire military had been atrophying after twelve years of Reagen-Bush. And then I said that these yahoos think they are the only ones supporting the troops well they got a cock-eyed notion about what that means because to them supporting the troops must mean sending them off to whatever country W is pissed at at the moment to get shot full of holes. Then he brought up Somalia and tried to blame Clinton for that involvement. I corrected him there too by pointing out that it Was Bush I who sent the troops there. He said it wasn't because it happened in '92 and I said yeah Bush was still prez in '92 before the election he said he wouldn't send troops to Somalia but he got pissed off and petulant about losing the election so he sent them during the interregnum. When he was asked by a reporter what had changed his mind he told the reporter "I'm still the president." Pure petulance. I had to go then but I hope I cleared that soldiers vision about what was really going on. What did you do today?

Fuck that shit! You and your son can do whatever you want, but don't bring that bullshit into my kid's school. It is propoganda and if I ever hear of a recruiter coming to my local, I will mobilize some serious fucking fireworks.

Not everyone buys the soldier stuff. Some of us want NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING.

I guess that being afraid of getting your ass shot off can manifest itself in many different ways. Usually it manifests itself by becoming a republican though.

(Since you volunteered that you were a veteran.)

Doesn't excuse or explain why you'd want to expose a whole school to a recruiter's sales pitch.

Seriously, I'd be extremely pissed off if a recruiter came to my kids' school.

Do you not give your kids credit for having enough intelligence to see through that? I'm sorry but I raised my kids to be independent thinkers and make decisions after learning all of the facts. Maybe you haven't

you will be put to work to further the U.S. corporate agenda. They're not fighting for freedom, they're fighting for Exxon and other corporate interests

The U.S. military is rarely put to use in "defense" of our country (even you will have to agree that the Invasion of Iraq was not for "defense" or "freedom." We go on the offense -- for oil and for corporate domination.

Why are you going out of your way to expose other people's kids to a recruiter?

Why not invite someone from Veterans for Peace if you don't think your son can carry an assembly on his own?

but I have a doctor's appointment that day. Might make it back in time though.

That's not the issue.

The issue is that you are arranging for a sales pitch for military service to be given to students at the tax payers expense, without their parents' permission, as a mandatory function that the students will be expected to attend.

The issue is that the sales pitch is being given by someone who has been professionally trained to manipulate people and misrepresent the reality of what happens in military service.

The issue that the sales pitch you are arranging for these students to be subjected to could result in them being killed, injured, or spending a lifetime with PTSD.

I don't care if you are in the audience or not. Either way, it's irresponsible and offensive.

... about the geopolitical issues surrounding this war.

Two of my three sons are a high school Senior and Freshman.

What's happened here is inappropriate.

You asked for a member of veteran's for peace to be there. HELLO??? McFLY??? What do you think I am? Step off of your soapbox long enough to listen to what others have to say too.

I'm not a mind reader.

If you tell me you are a veteran, you believe people in combat become republicans, and you are trying to get an entire high school of teens to listen to a recruiter's speech, I am not going to assume you're a member of VFP. I don't know any VFP members who think schools would be better if only we had more recruiters speaking in them.

Additionally, "might make it back in time" makes it clear you aren't booking yourself as a speaker from VFP. That sounds more like you might make it back in time to be in the audience. My question was why not invite a VFP member to speak instead of a recruiter?

I didn't say that going to combat makes you a republican I said that being too afraid to go to combat made you a republican. Why would I need to invite a VFP member to speak when I am there speaking every day? I am not afraid to hear dissenting viewpoints and encourage my students to listen to all sides before making up their mind. You see, I welcome debate because I know that my ideas will be able to withstand the scrutiny that debate provides. I guess not all of us are as secure in our positions.

I interpreted your comment about being afraid of getting your ass shot off differently than you intended it. I know a lot of vets who were afraid of getting their asses shot off during combat. I don't know who you were directing that comment at, I guess, if you weren't referring to the recruiter (or your son).

Dissenting opinions means someone who supports the war, someone who doesn't - both with accurate facts and equivalent speaking skills. If one of the speakers is professionally trained in sales pitches and is misrepresenting the truth (and trying to recruit minors), that's fair and balanced in the same way that Fox News is fair and balanced.

Why would you invite a recruiter, of all people, since you oppose recruiting? Or are you one of those "veterans for peace" who support recruiters?

but then i figured that would be the stopping point for a lot of people. my boys had a soldier come to their boyscout meeting adn talk about it all and his experience. i dont like the war. my kids are educated on what is happening and has happened in the past. they are interested in battle and our military. they have respect and appreciation for the soldier. and they gave a little love to the soldier. it was all good. they are NOT going into the military when they get older.....


i parent my kids. i dont need to shield them from much of anything.

n/t

would NOT be attending.

I've very carefully insisted that recruiters stay away. That's where I want them: away. While my child is a child he will not be subjected to a sales pitch from the military. As an adult, he can make up his own mind.

and you'd probably be finding out about it afterwards.

(I'm guessing our OP isn't considering sending home parental notification forms or permissions slips. Just a hunch. Would love to hear that I'm wrong on that, though.)

compelled to go. I enjoy watching him toss out all the mail brochures right now.

And the school board would certainly get a piece of my mind should this ever happen. (And I most certainly would be told!).

Now, if they wanted to do a whole, and balanced, forum on whether military service in the age of Bush makes any sense, I might be good with that -- so long as all sides are presented and true dialogue isn't squelched.

They'd rather be getting blown up in Iraq for nothing than deal with a round of base closings & cost cuts.

GW Bush inherited a military developed during the later part of the Bill Clinton years, and that military won two wars, technically speaking. it defeated the taliban AND the sadaam gang. Now the commander in chief has turned both of those military victories into disasterous losses through his incompetence.

before he's allowed to teach students, preferably one you can really rub his nose into. Yes, Clinton continued Cheney's proposed troop strength draw down. However, that meant they were drowning in equipment, not missing it. The reason for all the bellyaching at the time is that the Pentagon was less of a welfare office for military contractors than it is today.

Ask him how well the troops are equipped after nearly 7 years of Stupid/Cheney. Ask him about the personal armor, the armored Humvees, better bomb detection devices and why the hell those haven't been produced and delivered. Ask him why Halliburton did such a rotten job of managing Walter Reed, so bad a job that the former flagship of the military health system is being closed down.

This guy has no right to talk to kids while he still believes all the horseshit he's hearing from Lamebawl about how anti military the Dems are.

The GOP are only pro military contractor. They are the ones who truly hate the troops and always have.

And I remember things much the same way. Clinton only continued the cutbacks that * I started.

Repuke propaganda also likes to saddle the Ruby Ridge mess on Clinton as well but that happened on * I's watch, too. July or August of '92, I think.

I didn't invite someone to try to convince kids to take a job that pretty much guarantees them getting sent to Iraq and possibly killed.

and you also didn't show any kids that there is a world beyond the hollow that they live in and that there is a way out of the depression both mental and financial that is the only life that they have experienced. You also didn't give young people any credit for being able to think for themselves and discern what things presented to them might be tinged with untruth. You also didn't allow these very same young people the opportunity to be presented with all sides of an issue. I'm sure you sleep well at night though.

home and shown them there is life during and after depression.

Young people are highly susceptible to the tactics of recruiters so I would never support anyone putting pressure on a child...and they are CHILDREN..to do something that would get them killed. I imagine I sleep better than those who deliberately con these children into getting themselves maimed or killed.

PS I found my way of that little hollow and I didn't have to resort to the military to get it done, thank you very much. Neither do those children being used as cannon fodder.

which do you think you are doing?

and in a way that doesn't get them killed. What about you?

I think I'd take depression.

the idea that the only way out of the "hollow" is the military is bullshit.

with perspective. i am not afraid for my kids to listen to a soldier, nor a recruiter. i see it as them listening to more info so they can be more educated. we talk soooo much, my children and i, that i do not fear a recruiter. i see it only as a plus. maybe parents should do their job too

As for what I did today, I was out in the pouring rain volunteering for Jass Stewart for Mayor of Brockton, Mass.

Last call in Brockton mayor's race
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=158x13418

at the High School, where 3yrs ago, the 26th Vermonter to die in this fucking fiasco, graduated with his wife of one year!! We have lost more of our kids, per capita, than any other state, including my Godson (the 7th Vermonter killed), I don't want to see any fuckin recruiters in our schools for a long time, if ever! We have given enough and that chickenhawk POS Commander in Chief has never visited this State. I suppose we should feel fortunate about that but I am sick and tired of going to these funerals. I wish we could become another Province of Canada! I was at the school to help with the funeral arrangements and all I could do was weep. ENOUGH !!!!

if Bush was right that they would not be able to carry on a war with the military Clinton left behind, then how did Bush do so well with Clinton's army in Afghanistan? And then, "flush" with the new recruits with 9/11 fresh on their minds, how did they fuck up Iraq so badly?

No way do I want recruiters in my daughters school. She can learn all she needs to know about war from watching Full Metal Jacket

that there are people here who would be the first and the loudest to shout Bush down because he doesn't allow dissenting views to be voiced but have no problem with shutting down the opinions of what they don't agree with. You guys aren't any different in the tactics you want to employ from the fascist republicans, you only differ on the side you take. "Listen to me and shut the hell up!" is all that you are saying. As I said earlier, I am not afraid of debate because I know my ideas will stand up to debate. Some of us aren't so sure.

They are, in fact, paid government opearatives who may or may not believe the lies they tell the children they try to recruit for their own monetary gain.

"Dissenting opinions"! Bullshit! You want my kids to be forced to sit and quietly listen to a paid lier urge kids to go to Iraq and murder human beings who want nothing to do with them.

I am very much in agreement with you. Interesting how well the psych tactics have worked, that recruiters get taken for presenting real information, even for adults. Makes me sad.

Do you look under your bed each night for the boogie man too?

If those kids watch tv or go to the movies, they are exposed to the recruiters' message. The military has a huge advertising budget, and they are competing against counter recruitment groups that operate on a shoe string. Bringing in counter recruiters IS presenting the dissenting opinion - they get the other one shoved down their throats regularly.


Furthermore, a sales pitch is not the same as an opinion.

Who is giving the dissenting opinion that they shouldn't join the military? Is your son presenting the opposing side? Does he have the same training the recruiter has, from the same folks who train the Fortune 500 companies in marketing?

it applies to you too

with no substance.

?

I put more stock in Jimmy Massey's words than someone bringing recruiters into the schools, claiming to be in VFP, thanks.

I do not want recruiters coming to my kid's school to do an assembly either. Recruiters work along the same line as advertising. Take a product and try to convince you you need it. I could see having an assembly of people in the military AND people in organizations like VFP, since that way more accurate information might be given. But recruiters? No.

This is not shutting down opinions, but controlling what advertising is presented as an assembly. Would you invite sales reps for other products to come to assemblies? Our school wouldn't.

As far as your attitude, it's amazing to me that you are so rude in your replies to people who disagree. If I disagree I cannot read, or employ the same tactics as fascist republicans, etc. Bullshit. You miss the point.

School assemblies are not for the purpose of advertising. Recruiter's jobs is convincing people to enlist.

for a "balanced" discussion on the benefits of smoking?

Recruiters are salespeople, first and foremost. They've got quotas to meet.

Frankly, I'm not interested in ANY sales pitches like that being offered to children on school time. It's not as is there isn't enough learning to do.

Public schools are not the place to offer sales pitches for the military to a captive audience of children.

because that dog won't hunt. You clearly have misidentified the purpose of a school, too. Can't see the forest for the trees so to speak. Don't worry about misunderstanding what a school should do though, Bush got it wrong, too, with NCLB.

To instill in them a love for learning and the basic skills to take forward in their lives and continue to do so.

It seems you think the purpose is to provide captive audiences to build the military for a new generation. I differ.

Once more, recruiters are *salespeople*, pure and simple. They have a product they are paid to sell. There is no information they have that children in the public school context require as part of their educations. What they have is an "opportunity" for a life-path that in these times is likely to cause severe harm or death to the children.

Thus why such an important decision should not be pitched to or made by children, but adults.

How would you feel if they called an assembly and all the local Republicans were given a forum to persuade kids to support them, without any other point of view?

Or maybe all the local clergy should be invited in for the same purpose?

Glad you were able to set this particula recruiter straight on a few things, but it's sad that you think he or any recruiter ought to get a chance to do their thing for a captive audience of kids. Where's the balance?

It's pretty badly misrepresenting facts (like recruiters do, ironically) to claim that anyone who opposes making students listen to a recruitment pitch is a fascist who has a problem with opposing opinions or wants their kids to live in a bubble.

I've taken students to legitimate forums where VFP members, other peace activists, and recruiters were all invited to a panel discussion and debate. In that format, it's not an hour long advertisement for the military where people let the recruiter spew garbage unchallenged. What's funny is that in that case, the recruiters agreed to attend, and at the last minute their commander made them cancel. Apparently they aren't supposed to go speak places where informed people are allowed to call them on their lies. Leaves you wondering who's really afraid of opposing opinions - the counter recruitment folks aren't the ones afraid to show up for a debate.

A recruiter's sales pitch, unopposed, isn't a debate though.

Personally, I doubt the OP is really in Veterans for Peace. I just can't see one of us organizing a recruitment pitch to a whole school.

Here's what VFP does at home: "Members and chapters actively participate in efforts to save VA healthcare and defend of veterans’ rights; to protect our civil liberties threatened by the “Patriot Act” and other repressive legislation; to provide counseling through the GI Rights Hotline to active duty military needing assistance; and providing alternative information to counter military recruiters in the schools."

that inviting recruiters to a school would be exactly counter to that mission.

Nevermind what the heck the school is thinking to allow it. Can't imagine.

And it's more than ironic that issues such as veteran's health care are pretty soundly ignored, while the push for recruitment efforts are so strongly supported (financially and otherwise). We're not willing to spend what it's going to take to care for these people... isn't that the shame? Who's really supporting the troops?

i am in total agreement that to demand all military must be kept away from our kids to "protect" them, really only sets them up to be recruited without insite. i know a lot of military families. one with a military father and four son now in the military people. there is no way i would discourage my boys from not only interacting but actively discussing all this, allowing back and forth growth and understanding and knowledge

again, i say, i am not afraid for kids to see all sides. i am afraid when anyone sees only one side

I'll never forget a weary and pissy Bush I sending in the troops for "humanitarian" reasons. The other day we saw Bush I crying about the Gulf War I and at the end of his Presidency he was on Prozac and other psychoactive drugs. The man has a sensitive heart that has never been able to withstand the brutality of his actions.