Write a post about something like the rape victim in Saudi Arabia, and invariably

someone jumps in with comments about fundies here and violence against women here, etc, etc.

There is no comparison. None.

The force of law is behind this young woman's persecution. That is not the case in our own culture. The force of law is behind the persecution of gays in Iran and other countries. That is not the case in our own culture.

It's just absurd, upon reading about a young woman who is going to get 200 lashes for being raped, that someone would remark that we've got our own fundies here who would like to do the same thing. So? That may or may not be true, but that's completely inane. Worse, it minimizes what women who live in a oppressive regimes, suffer.

There is no comparison to how women are treated in the U.S. to how women are treated in Saudi America and other countries.

There is no comparison. None.

(yes, yes, I know the U.S. is best buds with SA, and that is DISGRACEFUL, so you don't need to bother pointing it out)

While we are all disgusted by some of the things happening in the US, the brutality of the abuse to female victims of violence in other parts of the world should not be minimized.

and I was so horrified and disturbed by it. Absolutely horrific. And Cali, damn straight that this is not something that would happen in the USA, no matter that there may be some insane kooks who would like to see this happen. Punishing the victim? It's abhorrent.

she's getting them for violating their absurd chastity laws that forbid contact between unrelated men and women until the wedding day. She dared to be in a car with a man who wasn't a relative, and that outraged the clerics.

My guess is that there is a lot more to this story than we know. She's Shi'a in a majority Sunni Wahabbi country. I have a feeling that has more to do with the harshness of her punishment than merely violating their stupid laws.

Do NOT bite my head off. They actually do exist over there, and they wear chadors/chadieri. It's a very risky business, too.

It could be the bum she was with "contracted" with her for sex, and his buddies thought they'd jump in and rip of a piece for free--after all, she's 'just' a woman, engaged in a forbidden, death penalty line of work, and she won't tell.

Of course, in 'Moral' Saudi Arabia, they HAVE no prostitutes. Well, that's what THEY say. It ain't true, but they claim it nonetheless.

A guy visiting one is gonna get his head chopped off if he's caught, a woman practicing the profession will get the same treatment. Instead, they both claim that they were having an intemperate and improper relationship--it's the only shot at avoiding certain death, after all.

That was my first thought when I saw this story...

Still, you'd think a little sense would prevail and being torn up inside by a 14 guy gang rape would be punishment enough.

Then again, they're one of the most sex phobic countries on the face of the earth.

She is property, a possession, a thing. And she was a BAD, BAD thing, and she must be punished for disobeying her man/overseer.

It's not a good place to be, physically and spiritually.

Culturally, the females are taught that they are inferior, and they grow up believing it. They are given a small universe, and told to accept it. The males are taught that they are the 'superior' in every way, that they control the universe that their 'property' is allowed to inhabit.

The women are regarded as steamy, uncontrollable sex fiends, too, who just gotta have it, and who have to be kept separate from the men. Not only are they "unable to control themselves," but if the males see them without their hijab, they'll "lose all control" and be forced--FORCED, mind you!!! It isn't THEIR fault!!" to jump them!! Like those old 1950's era Scottie Dog magnets, they have no recourse but to LEAP together the minute there's any proximity at all!!!!

Picture horny adolescents at their sexual peak. That's the way the Saudis see everyone, from eight to eighty. It's so fucking absurd, it would be laughable, only real people (and not just the women, the men as well--with a moronic perspective on life) are limited--and harmed, certainly-- by this idiotic practice.

very very likely....


I taught medical professionals in Saudi Arabia for a while... The denial is amazing there. They have no HIV, did ya know? :eyes: This, as the number one destination for Saudi men was Thailand, where they nearly single handedly keep the prostitutes in business. Yes, there are women who prostitute themselves in S. Arabia, but the risk is such that the men with the means usually take their risk (and business) elsewhere.

They have them in Iran, too. You "marry" a woman for the long, hot summer, she lives with you, or if you are going on a trip to the wicked, wicked west, you bring her along, and you screw her for the duration. At the end of the season, you "divorce" her, and she walks away with a nice payday and maybe a car or a small apartment (if the guy is stinking rich).

These guys claim to be so "Islamic" in their behavior, too! Heck, they were "married" after all!!!!

the hypocrisy is astounding... Something most extremist fundamentalist followers of the various religions seem to have in common.

Starting on Tuesday evening, an endless line of Mercedes start to head over the 21 mile causeway between Kobar Saudi Arabia and the island. Each car is loaded with wealthy Saudi men. They come to Bahrain for a ham sandwich, cold beer and a Gulf Air stewardess to go. The convoy reverses on Thursday evening as they must make prayer call on Friday. Some of the hotels in Bahrain will not allow Westeners in their establishments for the weekend and cater strictly to the Saudis.

:rofl:

So long as Bush is in power, you're gonna see it up the ying-yang.

Once we get a Dem in there, it will be that he or she isn't sufficiently left to suit. The volume will decrease, but that glass will STILL be half empty.

Griping in America is a sport, I'm afraid.

It's no picnic in Iran either, for anyone who might want to go on a date, for gays, and women have it the hardest--they're continually persecuted by Asswipe Minority Police (picture Pat Buchanan on a coke jag, skinny with no deodorant and a shit load of facial hair, in your face talking about your shitty morals, with a baton to beat you with if you do not show proper respect) but DARE to say anything against the Sainted Ahmadinejad and you'll get your ass handed to you (even if you've lived there, and speak from brutal and repressed knowledge of what life is like!).

Whatchagonnado, I guess... :shrug:

...only to find it was another stupid little "gotcha" game. Feh.

it about idiotic comparisons that mininmize what women are suffering. And I hardly "harp" on Iran. I've posted maybe 2 or three theads about Iran over several years.

not surprised to see you're more interested in commenting about me than the issue at hand. blech.

...which I recommended without comment because many other posters expressed my sentiment, that being: "That's fucked up."

This thread, the topic at hand, consists of whinging about the other thread. Pfft.

I didn't use the phrase because it's such a hot button. But the bottom line is that a lot of it goes on here, and it serves only to minimize serious human rights abuses.

uncle went on and on about it at the last family gathering.

Right on.

And I'll go further and add that that's why I don't use terms like Nazi, Fascist or Authoritarian when referring to any part of the American political process or our actors on the political stage. I know what Nazi's, Fascists and Authoritarians were/are really capable of and I've seen the consequences of their actions. The comparison is so absurd.. it first minimizes and then dilates the true crimes against humanity.

you don't use the Nazi, Fascist terms as they do indeed minimize the true crimes commited under those regimes. Thank you for that.

And Cali is so right. Cultural relativism is bullshit when it comes to telling it like it is in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran. And any woman who makes the comparison needs to have her head examined. I went on a small rant on one of those threads today. Sick of it.

Similarities that should be warning bells to any
thinking person who cares about women's rights.

They differ in DEGREE; that's a far cry from "no comparison".

They don't just differ in degree, they differ completely in any real comparison. Just because a minority of wingnuts would like to turn back the clock to the middle ages, that's hardly sufficient reason for legitimate comparison.

that you both raise some valid and important points.

some emotional responses on this thread, to an extent that could indicate the potential of clouded judgement. You seem to have noticed this, too.

I agree with those who say that the USA is distinct from Saudi Arabia on the issue. We do not have laws that call for people to be whipped in public for being the victim of a crime. I do understand that there may have been other circumstances that I am unaware of from reading media reports.

I also know that although we do not have laws that mistreat people in that way, that for far too long, our legal system served to humiliate many women who were the victims of sexual attacks. I'm not saying that makes us "equal" to Saudi Arabia, or that we have the same oppressive conditions here that they have there.

It seems an important enough topic that people might discuss/ debate the issues.

Understandable, but frustrating... Those who have worked and lived and know first hand of what they speak (myself, humbly included) are ignored or attacked as "defending" these practices or "willfully ignorant." :shrug:

who spent decades in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. I find that he has more to teach me about the cultures of those countries than I can teach him. Like many of my friends who have lived in other lands, he thinks that people should appreciate the numerous good things about this country; at the same time, he has serious concerns about the direction we are heading in.

than to share the experiences of those who have spent much of their life living and working among other cultures (as opposed to just traveling). Add some very well read academics to the table to stimulate wide discussion, and I'm in "heaven." At the same time, there is a shared concern and sense of commiseration among the group at how little Americans understand the world beyond their shores (and a shared fear of the repercussions that may come in the future).


Lest I be mistaken by some as the dreaded "elitist," I hasten to add, some of the most poignant and profound conversations I've ever had has come from taxi drivers from throughout the world. I remember one kindly, but financially struggling older man in New Orleans years ago, who was concerned his first generation kids were becoming too materialist and were slipping from the values he was trying to instill. His solution was to have them spend each of their summers of their teen years doing volunteer work among the poor in Trinidad or Tobago. I've never forgotten this man. He truly "gets it." I wish all of us could...

nm

are about at a five-year level. So yes, you deserved the exasperated response you got.

One wonders.

Anyone who cannot understand the distinction cali is making and tries to equate the treatment of women under the law in these two countries is either willfully disingenuous or pathetically stupid. That's not hostility. That's just a fact.

I'm not trying to get in an argument with anyone. But, this should be a civil discussion and it is rapidly deteriorating into anything but. How about, antfarm, we work to reverse that trend. :shrug:

and the responses here that attempt to equate treatment of women in these two countries are clearly not serious.

Let's put it this way. Howzabout your daughter and sister move over there? Would you still be so eager to equate the two? After all, they would get to wear those cool robes over their faces, and they wouldn't have to drive anymore!

I am a single professional blonde haired, green eyed non-Muslim woman who has taught medical students in Saudi Arabia and public health in Egypt, and Jordan. My parents worked and I lived briefly with them in Iran prior to the fall of the Shah in the late 70s.

And yes, I have worn an abaya (a black cape-like garment similar to a chadora in Iran) in SA. One does what they must to be effective and culturally-respectful to my university hosts. When I entered a room with SA, Palestinian, Kuwaiti, and Lebanese women students, all the veils came off and we interacted as any other women. When I left their offices to go meet with the male students, I wore western clothing, no veil and they treated me as they did the male instructors. So you don't get to preach to me about my understanding of Middle Eastern cultures. I acquired mine first hand.

What a marvelous job you have done of side-stepping the point. This is what disgusts me about the predictable posts here at DU preaching cultural relativism. You brag about wearing an abaya, but you have absolutely nothing to say about the fact that this woman can and will be LEGALLY imprisoned and beaten for events that led to her being gang raped. I am sure the woman described in cali's original post would be delighted to hear that YOU felt so safe and respected in her country. Honestly, your comments are so irrelevant and insulting to the subject of cali's original post that it is hard to know what to say in response.

The only thing I can say is that your response highlights the laziness, the myopia, and the self-importance of the cultural relativist postings here at DU. I get so sick of this changing the subject, pretending that the experiences of these women don't exist or matter, and pretending that they are somehow equivalent to women's experiences under our government. I seriously would like to see you look this woman in the eye and tell her that.

So, enjoy speaking to yourself. :eyes:

Pathetically stupid or willfully disingenuous, indeed.

even begin to compare with punishing a woman who has been raped. 200 lashes!!! Please enlighten us to which US laws to ANY degree even come close.

here in the US. He didn't so that whole post was a strawman.

But,it doesn't mean for one minute that we shouldn't remain ever vigilant against those in the country who would be happy to turn the clock back on women's rights by a large degree.

Which was Dick's point anyway, imho.

The violence against women in Saudi Arabia is state sanctioned. Their Sharia laws demand what is happening to these women - I asked where the comparison was in the US - no strawman.

Of course we must remain vigilant - Cali's point is that cultural relativism helps nobody and cheapens what these women go through every day of their lives. I can keep an eye on our government at the same time as saying the lives for women under Sharia law suck.

after repeated violent abuse from their husbands and law enforcement that often takes restraining orders and threats very casually. This recent case was a poor teen black woman who was chased and beaten by her boyfriend with a two by four and threatened with a gun with more beating. She fought back with a knife, killed him, and rather than consider a self-defense scenario, the prosecutor threw the book at her, intimidating her into a plea and long term prison. Our jails are full of these cases that our often patriarchal justice system with its focus on death penalty and other severe punitive measures, chooses to ignore. Warning bells, indeed..

law enforcement and a legal system that treats women as chattel. Yes, we need to reform our system. Yes, poor people aren't afforded enough protections, but it's simply not the same thing.

I missed that.

Which is what cali is talking about.

"It's just a matter of degree"

Well, yeah, I guess sending your kid to his room is just a matter of degree to IMPRISONING HIM.

"Fundies would like to do the same thing"

And that matters, how, since THEY HAVEN'T. Or is wishing something the same as doing it?

Is that your position?

I think it was clear he was talking about being ever-vigilant about religious nuts pushing women's rights back, which is what the fundies clearly wish to do.

How is that a valid argument that the US is comparable to Saudi?

Because it COULD happen? Anything COULD happen, that isn't any comparison.

A WOMAN IS BEING BEATEN AND IMPRISONED FOR BEING IN A CAR WITH A MAN AND GETTING RAPED.

Jesus fucking Christ.

fuck, the world could collapse tomorrow, but the odds that we'll ever see a "handmaiden's tale" country, are slim indeed. Nothing like puffing something up into a major threat.

saying that Fundamentalists in our country will NEVER EVER create Islamic laws similar to those in Saudi Arabia which punish women for the crimes of men. I don't believe that this will ever happen in the USA. Or Canada. Or Mexico. Or Venezuela. Or Brazil. Or Argentina.... Basically, it won't happen, in the future, anywhere in North or South America.

as they brought up a 12 year old who was raped, South Dakota, and an inability to abort a child there due to pending legislation. As horrific as that idea may be, remember, what would happen to that child in Saudi Arabia would be much much much worse.

And we have the freedom to protest the deterioration of our rights. There? Look what happened to this LAWYER. He had his license taken from him from arguing against the status maltreatment of the young girl.

When reading stories like this, I'm very thankful I'm from the West.

Some wish to make it illegal for a 12 year old
who was RAPED to get an abortion.

Hell, they actually PASSED that into LAW in South Dakota last year:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/07/america/web.0307abortion.php

How is that NOT "punishing her for the crimes of men"?
And the last time I looked, South Dakota was still "in our country".

It's horrible and despicable, of course. And I bet that no doctor would refuse a young girl who had been raped Plan B or the morning after pill. If they found out she was pregnant months after? I can't imagine that a doctor wouldn't use their judgement and do what the parents wanted for the poor child.

Again, though, it's a completely different case.

And, remember, in Saudi Arabia, that child would not only be able to NOT have an abortion, but she'd be lashed 200 times and put in jail on top of being pregnant. Of course, that is, if she wasn't murdered by her family for shaming them.

It IS totally different.

and lose my point.

Cali, when one treats the most powerless in society as though they have no right to a fair trial (because of lingering societal views that devalue women over men, or at least poor and minority women) and that they can simply be tossed away for decades in prison, THAT IS treating women like chattel.

And, I have spent a considerable portion of my adult life as a western woman professional living and working in both the worst offenders, as well as the most "liberal" of Middle Eastern countries, including S. Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and Iran, so my perspective is not poorly informed. At all.

In fact, the number of poor men in prison, is far greater than the number of poor women. And, I too have worked in the CJ system- in fact, on both sides of it. First as a Victim's Advocate out of the SA office, and than coordinating a federally funded program for prisoners. We have real problems in that arena, and yet, to compare a woman who's prosecuted for killing an abusive husband with a woman who's meted out 200 lashes for the impropriety of being alone with a man and suffering a brutal rape, is just flawed. Comparing the rights of women in SA and the rights of women in the U.S. is just sad. For cripes sake, a woman can't travel in SA without being accompanied by a male relative. Women can't drive or vote. This is ridiculous example of cultural relativity. And btw, SA is NOT considered a "liberal" Middle Eastern country.

I don't know why that offends you, but it is true. That, it seems was Dicksteele's point as well.

We are not Saudi Arabia, thank God. Women are obviously far more free in the West and the offenses against women in those areas of the Middle East (and elsewhere) that follow abusive practices towards women is unconscionable.

BTW, I encourage you to take a breath, Cali because you are misinterpreting what you are so quickly reading. I never said SA was a liberal Middle Eastern Country. HERE IS WHAT I SAID: "And, I have spent a considerable portion of my adult life as a western woman professional living and working in both the worst offenders, as well as the most "liberal" of Middle Eastern countries, including S. Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and Iran, so my perspective is not poorly informed. At all."


Obviously, if you would slow down and realize you are among very similarly thinking people on this board, you would realize that I include S.A. as among the "worst offenders" (including Iran). And, just to correct you (gently, I hope) a bit further, I never said I worked in criminal justice. Rather I stated I had lived and worked much of my adult professional life in SA, Egypt, Jordan and Iran. I taught medical professionals.

there being a world conference somewhere for women's rights.

The U.S. contingent was talking about things like equal pay for equal jobs, motherhood and working, and spousal abuse.

The third world women wanted birth certificates so they would count as a person instead of property.

Perspective is a marvelous thing sometimes.

:thumbsup:

of women in democratic countries to women in theocracies is like comparing watermelons to prunes. Size matters.

I never said it that the law of the land allowed it but to deny such exists is demeening for those women who do suffer such a world. I tightknit small one to be sure, but it does exist in this country, to say such does not with complete conviction amazes me honestly.

You think simply because the law of the land says it protects them that they would willingly run to them for help and for protection, doesn't work that way always. Not for some.

Not sure why people can't stay on a topic - we can have separate threads on different countries and religions :)

Do people bring up Christianity every time a minority is mistreated in the American justice system?

because of our culture.

that's absurd. Not unexpected as it comes from your keyboard, but laughably ignorant.

far before the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia was established.

The preaching began as an eighteenth century rebel movement against the Ottoman; the preachers allied with the Saudi clan; the Saudis beat England's Hashemite clients in the years after the end of the First World War and established themselves as monarchs, with the Wahabi clerics in charge of religious affairs.

and evil, and that our own shortcomings excuse anything in any other country. It burns me up. :mad:

K&R

That has not been made in some other countries in the world.

I don't think even the fundies would want such laws; those who do have zero chance of getting them. Even if the women wouldn't object, there are too many advantages to the men - they're not going to give up the status quo for something more restrictive.

Saudi women have a long way to go.

anyway, some DUers are among the mindset that EVERY GOD DAMN MOTHERFUCKING THING is somehow connected to one of our political issues here or our Republicans. My only response to them is :wtf:

The iron fist of Islamic law is persecuting women. That just isn't the case here and you are right to point out that comparing the two is further demeaning those poor women.

:D

That'll come in handy some time.

To relate it to using the word fascist - no one is saying that we are just like the Nazis at their height of power in every single exact way. It's just saying, "Hey, we're heading that way. Maybe we should try to stop it before it gets to that point."

Also on this topic, no one is saying that the same exact thing would happen here. I have to admit that I don't see as much evidence that it could possibly happen here in the not too distant future as outright fascism, but still. Why does it bother you so much that some people might think that we should be aware and continue working on not letting things get that bad and improving on what we do have here?

Maybe we should have a No Comparisons and/or Discussion of Topics Not Extremely Directly Related to the OP Allowed discussion group for people who can't handle thinking about more than one thing at once.

And I don't get the devaluing argument. If someone said that having the right of abortion threatened was exactly and totally just like getting lashes for being raped, okay. But seriously, no one is saying that. It is quite possible to make comparisons between two things that are on different parts of a spectrum. You can talk about A and also talk about B without A having to exactly equal B.

This is an old conflict on DU between the more fluid minded and the more concrete thinkers. My advice is to politely ask about someone's meaning and intentions if you're not sure about what they mean as opposed to going ahead and misinterpreting and going off the handle and flaming them and making accusations.

I never once said the law allowed such of women here in the states but I did say and do know that in some religious sects the practice is common, and they are Americans.

And I also believe that the fundies would wish we went back to the time where women were treated as nothing less than servants. How soon we forget out past right here in the US

I have actually heard some women even agree with the sentiment that women have too much freedom and that the husbands have a right to inflict punishment on them when they don't obey, you would think in this country and in this day and age such would not be occuring but it does and it has.

And most of these women would never dare go to the law.

And I do know personaly some women who did go to the law because of continued mistreatment and were let down by the little help the recieved.

More fall through the cracks than people realize....

/nt

it is an incredibly simple minded argument to make. Here,freedom of speech protects the right of an individual or group to make misogynist statements, hardly the same as a Government laws which codify misogyny. I imagine those poor women in places such as Saudi Arabia wonder why there isn't a worldwide effort to end their torture such as took place in South Africa's apartheid era. What's the difference?

Actually, to attempt to utilize the behavior of SA as a means to avoid our own failures is an unacceptable form of denial.

Yes, the human rights violations against women (hell, against all Saudis) is absolutely atrocious.

However, the human rights violations against Iraqis and many MANY other people by our own government is equally atrocious (and I am NOT talking about those committed within our borders). Moreover, our country imprisons and executes MORE of our own than any other country on the face of this earth.

The utilization of another country's awefulness in order to shield or minimize our own is a tactic utilized by those who DON'T WANT to accept responsibility for the state our own nation.

And what do our failures have to do with the OP? Using that logic, we should have all kept our mouths shut about South Africa too,at least until our own house was completely cleaned. I'll ask again, what is the difference between using a different set of laws based on color and using a different set of laws based on gender? Where is the international outrage?

or snicker. no one is attempting to absolve the U.S. of anything. This is simply about the way women are treated in some cultures. And either you give a shit, or you don't.

about the same subject but in a kind of petty way leaves me wondering why the hostility? In no way do I feel that I dumbed down your thread, I know you pride yourself on your intellectual way of looking at issues, but sometimes the truth cannot be found in a book you might have read,

And as far as caring about the way women are treated in some cultures we all do care why in the world would you think someone did not agree or give a shit about this young women in SA simply by making a comment that such mistreatment of women can and has happened here in the US..

The SA use religion as their excuse to enforce such mistreatment, some fundie type sects american born do exactly the same, how can you deny the similaritie?

That's why we cannot pander to them and we cannot "tolerate" their bigotry. Too much is at stake.

Just because we don't have it as bad as certain other women in the world is no reason to be complacent about the injustices that do occur here.

in a car. and it was about speaking out about punishment to the media. saying she is getting the lashes because she was raped is not correct. isnt it? not real sure i read the article correctly, but that is how i interpreted it.

Is how some DUers can't be satisfied with arguing their points in the original thread. No, start a new thread and drag this shit out.

I'm glad discussions on an obscure DB don't matter so much to me that I can't just let it go.

Oy.

Julie