This week dems in Congress did two very good things.

Dems in the House passed a FISA bill without immunity and Senator Leahy, using his power as Chairman, stripped immunity from the bill before sending it to the floor.

My point? This has gotten remarkably little comment here. If you want to see dems acting this way, don't just flood them with with calls and emails yelling at them when they do something wrong, contact them to thank and encourage them when they do something right. No, this isn't a done deal yet, and dems may still fold on the floor when the repukes predictably add an amendment to the Senate bill on the floor- not to mention bushco's predictable veto. BUT both House dems and Senators Leahy and Feingold (for his failed amendment) deserve our thanks and encouragement on this one. It's an uphill fight, and some of them have been battling it full force.

... two or three threads about it. I'm appreciative, but guess what?

We've been down this road many, many times before.

If they don't SUCCESSFULLY KEEP THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION from enacting this get out of jail free card, then the measures they have taken so far are worth exactly a bucket of warm spit.

So you won't mind if I don't get excited just yet.

every tool in their kits to defeat this or you don't, and if you don't recognize why that's just as important as calling them when they don't stand up to bushco, well, you are not grasping the situation at all.

... begin to use every tool. That's the problem.

And they won't this time either, I'll bet you on it.

It doesn't take much to figure that out. This isn't about some generic dems, it's about specific dems- at least in the Senate. In the House, it's about the leadership and those dems who worked on the bill as well as the "generic" dems who voted right.

... since you don't seem to have one.

The Senate and the House both have LEADERS. In the OTHER PARTY, the Leaders decide/aretold what the priorities are and they MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Even in the minority, they manage to get their way more often than not.

I'm not talking about Leahy, who by the way has dropped a few balls of his own, I'm talking about the DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS as largely defined by Reid and Pelosi.

way to miss the point once again, bucko. The point is when individual Reps and Senators do stand up, encouraging them to keep doing so, is just basic common sense. You really are a hapless sort, but amusing as a stereotype.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The point was not missed. We have a leadership problem in Congress. We have a systemic corruption problem in our system of government one of the symptoms of which is the leadership problem in our Congressional delegation. Yes some good things happen. Unfortunately these few small victories are surrounded and thus overwhelmed by a loing series of corrupt collusions with the Corporate Kleptocracy and War Party. For example, the bill you are so enamored of legalizes unconstitutional warrantless spying and blanket warrents. Ah, but while taking away our rights it doesn't grant (yet) immunity to the corporations that have already engaged in criminal behavior.

Unfortunately for your case:

"Because the two committees could not agree, Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the majority leader, will determine which proposals will be considered by the full Senate, said a spokeswoman for the Judiciary Committee. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/washington/16nsa.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Which brings us back full circle for why the point was not missed. We have a leadership problem in congress. We have a systemic corruption problem in our system of government one of the symptoms of which is the leadership problem in our Congressional delegation.

Argument by :rofl: not very mature. Increasing the number of smileys used decreases the maturity of the argument.

We all bitch about it when they don't do anything, but we seldom give acknowledgement when they do something RIGHT. Why do people always assume their voice will be heard only when they are complaining about somethingn? We need for them to hear our voice when they do something RIGHT.

Pretty simple.

... what they have done 50 times before. Act like they are going to do something and then at the last minute blink and fold like a paper napkin.

When they DO something, i.e. actually prevent this provision from becoming law, THEN AND ONLY THEN will I care.

you're simply bound and determined not to get it, and you're simply part of the problem.

... the collective current crop of Democratic congresspersons.

I get it just fine, you don't get it as usual.

it's fucking lazy as hell. The point (and boy is it obvious) is that there are individuals in the Congress who are doing the right thing. You certainly don't get "it" fine. As I said you don't get it at all.

flood them with hate and bile when they don't do what you want...but they do something good and not a damn way to go guys/gals.....see that is why the repugs succeed they fail they get thanked by their base for trying and whn they do succeed they get all kinds of thank yous

... I didn't have this attitude as recently as 6 months ago.

But watching our team get punked over and over and over has shaken my confidence in them completely.

If they accomplish ANYTHING of note, it will come as a surprise to me.

You can blame ME, or you can look at history and understand why I'm fed up to the gills with this crop of losers.

It legalizes warrantless spying on a pervasive basis and includes a blanket warrant provision that can and will be used to legalize mass arrests without specific charges. Grasping at this pearl in a turd is pathetic.

LOL. oh sorry.

It disregards the previous FISA LAW that was plenty adequate and it infringes on American's Constitutional Rights. Yes so far they have stripped the immunity for Corporations out from what the Republicans wanted but according to the ACLU the bill that remains is unconstitutional. Is that what you are so proud of?

If you want the best from someone always remind them as to just how good they are. never how bad they are.

.. my attitude about this congress I have one last thing to say.

If the congress successfully prevents the Repugs from granting immunity to AT&T et al, I will open a thread in GD and say I was wrong.

How many of you will do the same if they don't?

Got the courage of your convictions? My conviction is that Harry Reid is a milquetoast and that Bush will get his was as usual. I'm sorry if that offends folks here, I'm merely predicting the future based on past observations.

it's not your attitude about this congress that's being criticized. It's your inability to grasp something very basic: When individual dem lawmakers stand up for what's right, it's worth noting. Pretty simple stuff.

Because the two committees could not agree, Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the majority leader, will determine which proposals will be considered by the full Senate, said a spokeswoman for the Judiciary Committee.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/washington/16nsa.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

We will soon see exactly how this works out. I know where my bet is going.

the floor, but even this info about Reid (which is hardly surprising) doesn't have much to do with Leahy and Feingold doing everything they could do, or with the House passing a bill without immunity. I don't have much hope for keeping immunity out either, but I do know who deserves credit for standing up. Again, this isn't a terribly complicated point.

That is the point Cali. You can stand up and cheer for the momentary small victories, but it is all pretty much irrelevant. The system itself is corrupt and broken. It really doesn't matter much what Leahy did here. And on top of it, this law, regardless of the immunity, is an abomination to a republic of free citizens. It is, in Naomi Wolf's terminology, another piece of the fascist shift. 'Our' Congress is granting the executive the power to spy on all of us without effective oversight and without warrants, and allowing the executive to arrest us on blanket warrants that do not have to specify specific persons. This is a corrupt act. There is nothing to cheer about.

sure it matters when individual lawmakers like Feingold and Leahy stand up and fight. And it should be encouraged. But I forgot, you're one of the full fledged take evey word of Wolf/Klein as gospel, instead of reading critically. I don't buy my ideas wholesale from any purveyor.

And you are cheering because it, in one minor detail, is not quite as much of an abomination as it could be, knowing full well that, due to a technicality, the other version of this bill, the one that contains the immunity that you want us to celebrate the lack of, is likely the one that will get passed anyway. And you don't understand why we are not breaking out the pom-poms?

"take evey word of Wolf/Klein as gospel,"? What? Uh, no I don't. On the other hand, I accept the general analysis of Wolf that we are in the midst of a fascist shift that she has documented quite well. Likewise, Klien's extensive documentation of what she has labeled 'Disaster Capitalism' and 'The Shock Doctrine' puts me firmly in the camp of accepting her general thesis. In neither case does that require me to 'take every word of Wolf/Klein as gospel', a statement of yours, that along with your endless *sigh*s and rofls is not an attempt to engage in honest dialog, but merely an immature insult.

If you think the general thesis of either of these women are wrong, please do explain why exactly they are wrong.

Democrats in Congress just passed a bill that retroactively makes the laws Bush* broke to now be legal and the Administration to be not liable. They didn't want to go that far just yet for the Corporations but still they made something which used to be considered illegal and unconstitutional now legal and we are supposed to be proud of them. When Democrats turn our Laws upside down to keep Republicans from accountability we are supposed to celebrate that they are accomplishing our wishes??????????:shrug: I for one don't get it....