Young doctors in debt: $500,000 in student loans!!

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/16/pf/young_doctors.moneymag/index.htm?section=money_mostpopular

Young doctors in debt

Chris and Meg Reis are on their way to long medical careers. Now it's time to deal with $500,000 in student loans.

By George Mannes, Money Magazine senior writer
November 16 2007: 11:47 AM EST

(*** snip ***)

From six figures to student loans
It's all supposed to pay off, of course. Once they become full-fledged doctors (attending physicians, in the trade), they'll have six-figure incomes, more reasonable hours, a respected occupation and work that they love.

But for this generation of doctors, and for Meg and Chris in particular, financial security won't come guaranteed with their medical licenses. As health-care economics squeeze physician salaries, rising college and med school tuitions are putting young doctors ever deeper in the hole.

Chris and Meg live frugally, work hard and are making the kind of investments in their future that would make any parent proud. But they're also on track to finish their medical training in the next few years with a staggering $700,000 in debt.

you would have to be a moron to take that on.
it is not necessary. I've looked at med
costs, its just not that high.

When it comes to education, the whole "you get what you pay for"
thing works on a VERY steep curve. Skoolin is SPENSIVE these days!

Four years of "pre-med" at a "top school", followed by four more
years at a top Med School...throw in 8 years of LIVING on credit
in the places those "top schools" exist, and a half-million in debt
is staring you right in the face.

You can work some during undergrad, but not a good idea to even try it during med school itself, while you run up living expenses to boot. And residency and internship don't pay enough to put any dent in their debt, while they continue to have living expenses. $200K debt each certainly isn't impossible if you don't have family/savings to pay for it.

I talk to a lot of med students who sorta resent that law students have three years of school and are immediately payed full associate rate once they graduate. Or sometimes before they graduate if they work at big firms during the summer. Big firm associate is hell, but so is medical resident.

Law and MBA students have significantly better financial deals than med students, at least at top tier schools. School is shorter and you earn major money immediately.

See y'all in debtor's prison.

the salaries aren't going up either

This PhD worked odd jobs as bartender, librarian, adjunct college instructor, etc, waiting for the "big break" that never came.

Now I'm "gainfully employed" in an occupation that didn't require my PhD; and paying off SallieMae whenever I have enough geld at the end of the month. I figure I'll still be paying them with my Social Security checks.

came out of medical school with about 60,000 in debt in the early 80's. It took us forever to pay it off. I can't imagine a half a million debt. I worked overtime for the nursing pool along with my regular hospital job and he worked long hours getting his practice started. We scraped by in the beginning.

n/t

That article was shaky at best.

For one, that's a combined dept for married doctors. Once they're online they'll be looking at the potential to make over $400,000 per year.

They have $18,000 in savings that they are sitting on, "emergency money".

They're smart, they're doing fine, they know exactly what they're doing.

I just don't know what the point of the article was.

Should we take up a fund for these people?

time to be starting a family esp if they never see eachother. If they work for someone they probably will be fine. My husband started his own practice which costs a fortune to do. We were too stupid in our twenties to know that though.

I had friends that went right from college to Med School and they racked up about 100,000 in debt (each) off the bat. Why? Because since they had no savings and they couldn't work and go to Med School at the same time (its not really allowed even if you can find the time) they had to pay for not only the school but books, RENT, FOOD that sort of thing.....
ANd while they eventually went on to get decent practices, this high debt is making it hard for them to save anything.
The point of this article is to point out that because of debt a lot of young doctors struggle finacially for a long, long time. Its kind of a myth that all doctors are rich....

(when not putting out articles claiming consumers are responsible for 70% of our economy's stability or putting out articles by their own financial folks saying how it's gloom and doom, or how it isn't gloom or doom)

There are so many double-standards and mixed-messages it's beyond belief.

And thank you much for the clarification (e.g. the myth of doctors being rich; even frugal ones have to pay back all that debt... which is far more now than it ever was in the past due to governmental spending problems of the last 28 years or so.)

It's one of those financial makeover columns and the recommendations are mostly insignificant except suggesting that they reconsider the desire to have the woman work part time after she completes her residency. The planner's calculations showed that with full time employment for both the loans could be paid off in under ten years.

This couple seems to have made strategic choices with a view of the long term. The husband chose a much more expensive medical school in the hopes of staying in Chicago for residency. They bought a condo rather than renting because they knew that they would be in the area for several years. They've been setting aside some retirement contributions and not living off of their credit cards and managed to keep a good size emergency fund. With all that the planner was still able to point out some mostly minor changes to build their security.

That's good money they're making, and even if I had the sort of intellect (and dexterity) to become a surgeon, I wouldn't go gun-ho (whoops, gun-ha -- mustn't upset anyone who I didn't call a hooker) on a big ass mansion of personal fleet of SUVs.

My hubby probably will never make $200K. At least, I can't see it ever working out. He's close to maxed out on his patient load, working as hard as he can, and he's nowhere near that.

It is expensive to educate and train a Doc or Nurse and getting more expensive by the year. Med schools get some federal support and Nursing schools get zilch-even though it is vital to society to have these skills.

You get squeezed by the HMO's, Ins. Co, and Medicare/Medicaid if you are a Doc. It frequently costs more to treat than what you can recoup. If you are a Nurse the hospitals do all in their power to low ball your wages and over work you too many patients.

The older Docs are retiring early in disgust and the newbies are under a load of debt. As much as I love Nursing, if I had to do it over again I wouldn't. Sadly, I have heard some great Doc's say the same thing.

The mata is going to hit the fan soon-and I predict a profound crisis very shortly (a few years out) when the Boomer's retire. When I hang up my shoes to retire....that will be it-finis. I sometimes hear it floated that if it gets bad enough they might do some mandatory call ups, but I don't care who writes an order-I gave at the office for years and I finished. I have tried to bring this to political leaders attention for a long time, with very little success. I am tired of not being listened to or expected to give it away for free.

Edited to add Knitter....I hope all is well and you and your family are healthy and having a better time and a better Thanksgiving than you had last year.

:hug: Thanks. I sometimes sit and think about how scary last year was, and I keep wondering how we made it through all of that. This year, I'm just hosting Thanksgiving (for three days) for all the in-laws. *sigh*

God bless you and all the nurses. Hubby's got a couple of absolutely wonderful nurses at his new practice, and he just loves them. They make his job so much easier. Good nurses are worth their weight in diamonds as far as I'm concerned and should be respected, paid well, and fully staffed.

if I lived ANYWHERE close to you and your Hubby.....I'd be knocking at you door with a resume.

My best buds hubby is going through the chemo phase of his bladder cancer treatment. I went over and brought him a big gallon of lemonade-the home made kind. He just had so much nausea and vomiting. I told him that a patient of mine once told me that when your having chemo-eat and drink what you won't mind tasting again. That's how he discovered that lemonade was pretty good.:spray:My friend said that it worked well for him too. He swears he has it timed just right so he can enjoy Thanksgiving-so we'll see. He needs to be fattened up a bit. Big hugs to you and your family and we are so glad you've made your first year out....:grouphug:

Now medical school is more expensive than most other graduate programs, but they must have gone to a very, very expensive private v. state school and lived quite well while going to college. Whoever heard of 2 grad students having $18K in savings!?! Dang! That is about the most any GTA or research asst. can even make at the most generous schools, and a grand a month for 9 months is about average.

I have what I thought was a massive $50K debt for almost 8 years of school and now I shan't lose any sleep over that, I shall cry for Biff and Trixie instead. NOT!

I noticed when I went back to school at the Univ of Florida in 1998 that students were living in condos with fitness rooms, every kind of appliance, ethernet, cable etc. etc., and driving SUVs and even Porsches and Jaguars. My heart bleeds for the poor widdle yuppies.

Including my friends who each lived in a one bedroom apartment in Norfolk, Va and drove the used cars they had while in college. And they had the actual gall to have 100,000 in loans so they could you know, go to school and still have a roof over their head and HORRORS..actually EAT! But I guess only starving, homeless med students are acceptable right?

You go where you get in, or you're not a doctor. There are not a lot of medical schools out there, and acceptence rates are extremely low.

Tuition will be $30K/year+ for any private or out-of-state public school.

The books are expensive. You cannot work while in medical school.

If this debt was divided equally between the two of them over the whole 8 years, you're looking at $31,250 a year each debt. That's not outrageous.

They borrowed the money, they'll pay the money.

Over half a million in debt, both still in residency, they go days without seeing each other--and they're having a baby! They're both under 30!

That is beyond irresponsible, in my book!

all that homework.

Still, read that article. It sounds like they are the archetypal responsible people. Apart from the lady who works 3 jobs and gets applauded for doing so...

Maybe it's my relatives who are out of touch; they always said being in debt is bad. Everything in our society encourages it, despite the token blather suggesting the opposite?

Pay off their debts first! That's the responsible thing to do.

Come on.

They do not see eachother now coming and going. Who is going to care for the child? Just because they are young doesn't mean the time is right. A few more years wouldn't have hurt for the child's sake. The debt is beside the point.

older women have more fertility problems, but who cares, right?
:eyes:

that my doctor friends arrived with 3 young kids, picked up a mortgage and paid a nanny's salary. All with massive debt. They surely struggled for the first few years, but they are doing just fine.

No luxury cars yet, though.

I opted not to bother posting it.

Debt has always been around. But if they'd take off their blinders, they would see the disconnect between education costs and return on investment. Since the medical, legal, and bioengineering fields are starting to be offshored en masse, who is going to want to spend hundreds of thousands

Then the same fools** whine and complain Americans aren't doing their part, which is why they want to bring in H1Bs.

You bet there's a problem, but everybody (including those too timid to take the risks, I wholly agree) has their part to play.



** Or are they?

Most doctors I know are telling their kids not to apply to med school. You'd do a lot better going to business school. And your lifestyle would be a lot better, too.

Law school is every bit as demanding as med school, and the "money chase" stuff right out of school is just as physically punishing, but three years of expenses and tuition beats four years, and you can start earning serious cash right away.

There's no comparison whatsoever between a fourth year of paying out $30,000 and a fourth year of earning $110,000, following a summer job that paid you almost as much in 12 weeks as a year of med student residency will pay that guy.

It's not the "golf all day and answer a few phone calls" life so many seem to think it is. Hubby's an attending, and he averages 80 hours a week most weeks still. Between the debt, the hours, the constant stress, the threat of lawsuits, and dealing with death everyday, it's not an easy job.

All the doctors I know live in mega-mansions and drive high-end luxury cars.

Lives in a middle class neighborhood and drives an Acura. :shrug:

Do you make that much?

that much debt over medical school.

With a salary of 300,000/year, 250K is not that big a deal.

That includes plastic surgeons, anesthesiologists, neurosurgeons, and general practitioners and pediatricians.

There is a hug difference between what an anesthesiologist makes versus a pediatrician.

BTW, no I don't make that much money (yet), but my father does. Yet he lives in a simple middle class house and drives a Ford Ranger. :shrug:


edited to add: Also my doctor works for free at the free clinic as well. Oh and my best friend that just graduated from medical school last year makes $40,000 a year as a resident and works 28 days a month (60+ hours a week). She's not really raking it in.

And where did you get that information? This website says differently:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Doctor_of_Medicine_(MD)_Degrees/Salary

Hubby was before that, so he averaged 100 hours a week as an intern, anywhere from 80-120 hours a week, depending on how many call nights he had that week. It got better the further along he got, but he still never dropped below 80 hours a week on average.

Now that he's an attending, he's still somewhere around 80 hours a week, but at least it's home call. That's much better.

But I know she gets 4 days off a month. She'll work 2 weeks on, 1 day off, one week on 3 days off, that way she can fly home to see her parents (she's in FL and parents in TX). BTW, her mom works for AA that's why she can fly like that. She was lucky, her parents make a good living and saved a lot for their children's education. She did take out loans in medical school, because she felt bad that her parents were having to pay so much.

There were months when Hubby might get a day off, maybe two. I don't miss those years at all. We had two young kids, and I felt like a single mom with the occasional live-in husband. It was awful.

I don't envy her one bit. She's soooo smart, but I saw her "homework" during medical school and help quiz her before tests, medical school ain't no picnic.

And the hours she puts in too in residency, I know I can't do that. But you know, when she's done, she's going to be one excellent pediatrician. I'll be proud to take my own kids (whenever I have them) to her.

:hug: I love peds. They work their butts off and are the most possessive doctors I know who fight tooth and nail for their patients. We don't have enough here in Michigan and are always looking for more. I know that Manistee on Lake Michigan is in dire straights for a few.

Peds residency's hard-core, too. They have to have really high standards--these are kids they're dealing with. My doc is a Med-Ped (combined Internal Medicine/Pediatrics residency), and she said that her peds attendings were far harder than her medicine ones.

Did you know that they make the residents taste all of the ped medicines? That still makes me giggle. That way, my doctor knows if something tastes bad and needs to be masked in something else. :)

She did grow up in Texas after all, Michigan might be too cold. :)

When she came home after a month of residency she told me that she had the classic Jehovah Witness, sickle cell case. She was upset b/c the parents wouldn't get the blood transfusion, because all she cares about is the child.

She's still contemplating on doing an endocrinology residency and becoming a pediatric endrocrinologist to be able to work with more diabetic kids.

Endocrine puts your through your paces, that's for sure.

Dang. Well, tell her we need her anyway. ;) Not that she isn't needed in Texas. We get ads for them all the time in the mail. Big doctor shortage all over out west.

Interventional Radiologists, pathologists, high-end cardio guys, and some specialized surgeons make that much and more. Some, like radiologists, make a lot more.

Then you have pediatricians. Their average salary is right around a $100K (and they have the same student loans everyone else has). A lot of them are going under, actually, or joining in with hospital practices because the payments for kids just aren't there.

Hubby makes $160K. No, we're not poor. When we were first married and he was in med school, I was a Catholic high school teacher and grossed $18K, so we know poor. Things are tight, though, since we have a lot of debt to pay off still and my medical expenses weren't exactly in the budget. Oh, and our health insurance sucks. It's the only one the practice can afford.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2f_Doctors/Salary

Not one of the categories is anywhere near $300K.

I don't know a single internist who earns anywhere near that much. And certainly not in rural America.

When my hubby was in private practice as an internist, he made no more than $150,000. At his highest.

We can't afford to replace it, either. So, we're hoping to get as many miles out of it as possible before getting another one.

We live in an older neighborhood, since I refused to have a house that cost more than the med school debt. It's 2200 s.f., and it's perfect for us. Yes, we splurged a bit and got me a better used car for toting around the kids and running the errands and such, but that's a Ford, too.

I really hope you were kidding.

All doctors are freaking gazillionaires with big fancy schmancy mansions and tooling around in their Lexus/BMW/Mercedes/Range Rover.

And all they care about is money money money. I've never met a decent doctor in my life. They're all uppity snobs with so much money they use it instead of fire wood in the winter.

:sarcasm:

And I don't think the previous poster was kidding. Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

I'll never forget my MIL telling my hubby, at the end of residency when we were interviewing and looking at jobs, that he should've been a radiologist instead. Just for the money. :eyes: Then again, this woman never did get it all through med school and residency that when he was on call, it meant he wasn't coming home anytime soon. Drove me nuts.

Then you may have an argument.

That's at a minimum of 60 hours a week (he doesn't seem to count his being on-call for one hospital every night, even though I do, since it means we can't be more than half an hour away from that hospital and go anywhere), no dental, crappy health insurance ($2400 deductible with an HSA that I hate), real call every Monday and every fourth weekend (coving both hospitals), and four weeks off a year (sick time included, which hurt us this year since we both got mono last spring).

We still owe on the $175K base for the med school loans, so we got a smaller house to keep our debt in line. We had to pull our kids out of the private school because we couldn't afford it with the higher medical costs and three of us having asthma and needing three different meds each, plus my other health stuff. To get our debt down, we're keeping his 2001 Taurus until it drops and then probably replacing it with a similar car (hopefully low mileage since he's still covering both hospitals in both towns).

We ran up a lot of credit card debt in residency that we're still paying off, and we're tightening up the budget as much as possible. With having to pay his sister's college bill last summer, we're a little tighter than we'd planned by this fall with hosting his entire family for Thanksgiving (and why not--he's the doctor and so obviously can afford to feed 20 people and house an extra seven for three days and add an extra guest at the last minute, or so MIL seems to think--it's costing us a fortune, and I'm doing it as cheaply as possible).

We're cutting costs everywhere we can, since we basically have two mortage payments in addition to higher medical and dental costs with this job that we hadn't planned on. I'm not saying we're poor (when he was in med school and I was a Catholic high school teacher making $18K, we were poor), but things are tighter than we'd ever thought possible during those tighter times. Food, gas, heating, all those costs going up, and even we are starting to feel the pinch.

Thanks for making my point.

Our first 7 years of marriage, we were below the median. Our first three years of marriage, we made less than $20K a year. We've put in our time. We don't come from rich families at all, we never had a fancy car or nanny or parent-paid condo or even any help with med school bills of any kind. We come from the middle class, and so our families couldn't help us much. I taught, he studied, and when I got pregnant, we found out that my job would barely have paid the daycare bills, so I stayed home while he took out more in med school loans.

In residency, he never made more than $44K a year. That's with 120 hour work weeks (no union, no hours restrictions then), two babies at home, and a sick wife. We have put in our time, and that's why we donate as much money as we can afford, take food constantly over to the local food bank, and help out families we know personally as much as we can with food and other needed items. Others helped us when we didn't know where the next rent payment was coming from, and so we help others.

I'm not sorry Hubby's finally making the real money of an attending. He's put in his time, and this is his reward. He works damn hard to earn every penny, and our family makes a lot of sacrifices for his job. The money doesn't come close to making up for the times he hasn't been there for us, but at least we're able to host Thanksgiving and pay my medical bills.

You don't like people with high incomes?

Or are you saying that EVERYONE should get paid the same, no matter what they do?

For the first few years that they lived here, they had folding tables in their dining room. They arrived here with massive debt from school, three kids and a nanny plus a new mortgage.

They're both making excellent money and will do just fine. The first few years must've sucked, though.

:nopity:

treat poor people. No wonder we need docs trained in Cuba FOR FREE to come out and practice medicine with the poor!!!

if we had socialized medicine? Just saying.

:eyes:

Other countries have doctors AND socialized medicine. However, they also provide school for free or practically free. We need more than universal healthcare in this country to catch up with the rest of the world.

And he's an internist. He's constantly pissed off with insurance companies and drug prices and all.

Two of the residents when he was an intern were from Canada. They'd come to the US to do their residency, hearing that our system was better. They ran back to Canada when they were done. They were constantly horrified at the crap we all deal with on a daily basis from insurance and Medicare, and Pharma, and everything.

also provide college and medical school at no cost to the student.

because medical school subsidies would be part of any reasonable government medical program.

Funny how I lived in Canada for four years and they didn't seem to have a shortage of doctors. One of my best friends' dads is a doctor in Canada and he never complained about not making as much money as his US counterparts, even when I asked him about it point blank. It's also funny how you never hear about a shortage of doctors in Europe, either...

I can see how that adds up, though. Hubby and I managed to get through undergrad without any loans (mine thanks to my parents and Hubby because he worked as a nurse's aid in nursing homes), so the only student loans we have is his med school loans. He graduated from Case in 2001, and I'm sure their tuition has continued to skyrocket.

We would've had more if I hadn't taught while he was in med school. He would have needed school loan money to pay for housing and such, and we still needed some because my Catholic teacher salary was crap, but we owe less because of that.

So, basically, we have two mortgages--the med school debt and the house. With my medical problems and his job change this last year and all, things are tight, but we're making it. I'm tightening up again like how I did all through med school and residency, and things are okay. It's not like we're poor. We've been poor and know what that's like.

Tells me right away that this article is a load of crock. This article cherry picked two very extreme cases. Most doctors that I know have about 100k in debt coming out of med school. Going to a public undergrad really helps.

Oh the oppression! Oh the humanity!

My friend tells me that doctor pay ranges depending on experience.

Few doctors make less than $200K and top surgeons make over $1 million/year. Those who own their private practice also make over $400-$500K/yr.

Yeah, I'm not feeling sorry for doctors and dentists.

Hubby had to get a new job last year when his practice wanted him to take a $50K pay cut, and we couldn't find anything for that much. In Michigan, the going rate for an internist with a few years of experience is $160K.

I know doctors who own their own practices who wish they were making that much here. Hubby's old practice is probably going under soon. At least, it has all the signs (firing him, firing their latest PA hire who is really talented and deserves better, losing another doctor because of contract crap, losing a few good aides, etc.).

Pediatricians in Michigan are lucky if they make around $100K (with med school debt taking a huge chunk of that every year). Those guys making a million are super-specialized or are radiologists (who can name their price, apparently). Your average primary care doc will never, ever see that kind of money.

Cry me a river

Read my posts. I'm trying to explain where the money goes, that's all. I've said over and over again that we aren't poor, that we've been poor (unless you think living on a gross salary of $18,600 is rich) and know we're far better off now, but that we're not living some high life.

We don't have fancy cars, we don't have a huge or fancy house, we don't wear expensive clothes, we don't have expensive electronics, and yet we don't have any real savings. I'm not asking for pity, just a modicum of understanding that, while it seems like we have tons of money coming in, most of it is already spent in debt.

Allow me not to feel sorry for someone making 4x as much by himself

Where did I ask for pity? I merely asked for a modicum of understanding, the merest hint of empathy that maybe, just maybe, those oceans of money that you seem to see don't really exist in the way you imagine.

As I posted above, for the first seven years of our marriage, we made below the median. I think we've put in our time, and I know that my husband deserves his pay, that he works damn hard for it.

they deserve it. After going to school for years and years, if they didn't make this kind of money, I don't know as to why anyone would want to be a doctor at all.

Hubby didn't go into it for the money (if he had, he would've been in a more lucrative specialty, not "just" an internist), but having enough money to travel to see his parents when we need to and to pay my medical bills sure is better than when we were in residency.

You need to source stuff better than some anonymous friend who's numbers don't agree with official statistics at all.

My husband is the only one in his practice that covers the hospital in the town we live in. If he has a patient in there (or three or four, as is usual), he's on call. That means that he has to round at both hospitals in the morning, work all day in the office, round again at night (usually an admission or something big he has to take a look at), and then have his pager and phone going off all night long. That's day in, day out. I tell ya, there are times I'd love to take a sledgehammer to that pager.

Oh, and he doesn't make $200K a year and probably never will in this market. I'm just sayin' . . .

Yeah, next we'll have a pity party for CEOs

And we're doing much better financially since we left it, working in a completely different field.

So I don't envy doctors their jobs. Not one bit. I've been there, done that, and being a doctor nowadays is the pits.

I always feel kinda sick when I see what programmers make elsewhere.

Still, I like it up here.