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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:23 AM
Original message
Indigenous Cultures - The future of our planet
Indigenous Cultures

The future of our planet depends on saving both the remaining biologically diverse ecosystems and the cultural, credible diversity of the tribal peoples of the world.
The ancient cultures of native peoples, threatened by modern assimilation, are the only known, proven time-tested models for the sustainable consumption of the Earth’s threatened natural resources.

Native Planet hopes that you enjoy our cultural documentaries that will show you the fascinating world of indigenous peoples and their unique cultures—and why the preservation of their tribal lifeways is essential to a world where life is sustainable and both cultural diversity and biological diversity flourish.

www.nativeplanet.org/indigenous/indigenous.shtml




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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. The meek shall inherit the Earth. n/t
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks. One can only inherit what another owns. No one owns the Earth. ;) nt
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. True enough...
I've always thought, though, that the indigenous and so-called "primitive" cultures will be so much better prepared to deal with a post-modern world. What do the rest of us know about surviving in nature? Not much.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I absolutely agree with that. nt
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you for the link....
I have always been respectful of indigenous people.
Earth was a healthier place under their stewardship.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. You're welcome. :) Here's another: "Disappearing Worlds and the Prime Directive"
This essay was written by John Hubbard for the Macalester College course "IT 27: Disappearing Worlds" in January 1993. It has not been significantly altered from the original version; the last modified date shown below indicates when this Webpage was last uploaded in its present form.


The progress of any civilization brings certain drawbacks. With the advancements of modern society, there also comes the destruction of prior cultures. Societies that are primitive in some technological aspects are being eradicated by our advancing world. A typical case of this takeover involves much destruction. There are two points at the heart of these happenings: the reasons for intervention and the reasons for development.

The beginning of modern civilization brought many new ways of living to the world. Tribal societies existed for a very long time before any of this, but with these new advancements came the need not only to survive, but to for power and dominion over others. With their basic needs met, humans strove to create a better way of life by thinking of and creating more advanced tools and social structures. This is what brought the caveman of ages past to become the businessman of today.

From a world view, certain societies advanced in different ways than others. However, it has always been the most destructive society that has had the power to take over others, thus the wars of conquest which parallel the rise of civilization. As the world settled into the framework of countries, nations, and societies, a rigid structure formed, dividing technologically advanced cultures from others: highly economically developed countries are first-world countries, second-world countries are lower in world power, and third-world countries are poor, under developed, usually colonized, that is, invaded, nations. The so-called fourth world, the tribal societies that used to occupy the entire planet, are now literally an endangered culture.

Since the time of Columbus, exploration has come from the need of some societies for room for progress for their own advancement. The intervention and exploitation of native territories has an almost mindless inconsideration for other cultures. The advancing and invading culture's morals, religion, and social structure are assumed to be the universally correct way to live, so these are enforced upon the natives.

more...


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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. The Problem With This, Sir
Is that these 'time-tested' ways of life are sustainable only for very low population densities. They cannot be employed to support anything like the number of people present today.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yep. We've got a lotta folk on the Big Blue Marble these days. nt
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. The problem with what? You might as well say the problem with solar power is that
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 02:40 AM by greyl
your oil-powered house isn't designed for it.

Overpopulation is an intrinsic characteristic of the non-indigenous Dominionist culture that needs to heed the lessons learned by the ""time tested" ways of life" the most.
What's your problem with time tested all of a sudden?

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. The Problem, Sir, Is Simply This
What is to be done with those in excess of that carrying capacity already present?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. The Earth and its community of life cannot sustain 7 billion people living like we do.
What is to be done about that?
Humans are creative, so I suggest we begin by recognizing some unpleasant truths then get busy coming up with solutions.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. When You Can Suggest Something, Sir
That does not boil down to several billion corpses, you will find me quite interested....

"Most problems began as solutions."
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Obviously,
the humane solution is to limit births.

Still obviously, the idea of regulating reproduction is repugnant, and unsupportable unless every other avenue has been given strong effort.

In the U.S., I'd suggest the following:

FIRST, provide universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health care, abundant, accessible, affordable housing, pre-school - college free public education, and a revitalized infrastructure. Including a vibrant public transportation system. Provide free, abundant birth control for every human, no questions asked.

NEXT, restructure the tax system. Biggest deductions for childless people who undergo vasectomy or tubal ligation. Big deductions for all people who have produced no children through any means. A smaller deduction for people who produce one child. A neutral status for those who produce 2 children. A carbon tax on every child after two, growing larger with each additional child produced.

Then, tie trade to birth rates IN ADDITION to environmental, human rights, and labor standards. Bring the population issue to the UN and to every meeting between nations.

Those are my suggestions.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Viewed Globally, Sir
That is going on already: the rate of population increase is declining from what it was a couple of decades ago, though it remains well in excess of simple replacement rates. It is readily observable that the factors which do result in lower birthrates are chiefly an increase in the economic well-being and security of a society, and that these factors are closely tied to various forms of 'women's liberation', such as increased female literacy, and legal reforms that give women more control over their lives including the cash proceeds of their labor. These latter elements, of course, fly directly in the face of traditional cultural practices in many places.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
87. A few points:
Point one: I am not a 'Sir."

Of course, I am well aware that there is a larger problem with population growth in developing nations. I would also point out that we have certainly not reached zero population growth here in the U.S., which is exactly why I propose doing something to encourage just that.

Meanwhile, population growth in the U.S. continues. Our birth rate, while not low enough yet, continues to fall. Much of the population increase is due to immigration, which will continue to be a factor until birth rates drop low enough on the entire planet.

I think we ought to walk the walk at home while we encourage the rest of the planet to join us.

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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #32
79. Combine the health care for moms and children, and the birth control.
Make sure that in underdeveloped countries, that the children that the people DO HAVE have health care, the mothers have prenatal care, and the children that they do have survive past infancy, before insisting that they use birth control.

They might be having seven or eight kids because they all die from typhoid or cholera or any number of easily preventable diseases.

I read this in a book by Germaine Greer which is about why women in Third World countries often resist birth control. It's quite logical if you don't know if the child you have will survive to school age or not.


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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Sir, you have an unintentional metaphor there!
Edited on Thu Nov-22-07 08:04 AM by HamdenRice
"When You Can Suggest Something, Sir ... That does not boil down to several billion corpses..."

Given that the objection to the OPer's theory is that it fails to explain how the several billion of us who are already here will actually eat if we returned to indigenous culture technology, your phrase, "boil down to several billion corpses" for some reason made a "Soylent Green" stew type solution pop into my head.

Eeewww.

Happy turkey eating day after that!

On edit: I didn't even realize that Chovexani had beat me to it down thread.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Woah. Where are you getting that from?
I'm not suggesting anything that boils down to several billion corpses.
When I say "The Earth and its community of life cannot sustain 7 billion people living like we do", I mean we need to begin living in a new way, and "we" means our culture.

I don't know what is within your power to do about the problem, so I can't prescribe an individual course of action for you other than recognizing the problem.

It should be clear to all but the most dense of us that the way members of our culture are living now, at our present numbers, is spelling catastrophe for the very systems that support us. Are you not aware of the period of mass extinction we are in?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. The Numbers Presently Alive, Sir
Are alive because of the patterns of modern industrial society. Prior to this, there were nowhere near such numbers of humans on the planet, nor any likelihood there would be. Broadly stated, the difference between what the pre-industrial traditional patterns you seem to be espousing can support, and what the patterns of present industrial society can support, is the difference between the global population circa seventeenth century, and the global population at present. Abolish the present patterns in favor the elder ones, and a number equivalent to the difference in those populations must, one way or another, cease to exist. Something those presently in existence will find a distressing and uncongenial prospect....
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. "New" does not mean "elder".
I said "we need to begin living in a new way".

I also said "It should be clear to all but the most dense of us that the way members of our culture are living now, at our present numbers, is spelling catastrophe for the very systems that support us. Are you not aware of the period of mass extinction we are in?"
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Actually, Sir
When the 'new way' proposed is nothing more than a return to pre-modern patters, that is just what it means.

The fact that a problem exists does not mean there is a benign solution to it, and certainly does not mean that a proposed solution dear to some person or other is either benign or practical, or even particularly well thought through.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. What 'new way' has been proposed?
If you're implying that I proposed it, please quote me directly.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. It may be the article you linked to in the OP that's confusing people
It says "The ancient cultures of native peoples, threatened by modern assimilation, are the only known, proven time-tested models for the sustainable consumption of the Earth’s threatened natural resources."

People may have been under the impression that was your view too.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. That IS part of my view, yes.
The other confusion is apparently from people making hasty assumptions about my other views.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. Or your inability/ unwillingness to articulate them? WTF is this thread about, huh?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. See #20. "The Earth and its community of life cannot sustain 7 billion people living like we do."
Is that not clear to us by now? Have you ever heard of Al Gore? ;)
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. That depends on what technologies we are able to develop.
Edited on Fri Nov-23-07 03:05 PM by JVS
Also, we are constantly changing the way we live. But regressing isn't going to help anything.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Does it depend Solely on what technologies we develop?
Are we to have undying faith that if we just learn to conquer the world even better, our culture will transform into one that is sustainable? Do you suggest we totally discount the examples given by thousands of sustainable human cultures that are humming along happily, most of them for thousands of years longer than ours?

Are you hoping we build a big enough space ship to escape our bleeding Earth with? Should we look up to the sky waiting for angels or aliens to save us? Should we all believe that this world is only relatively unimportant stepping stone to the Divine salvation of the afterworld? Can we all be confident that global corporations know what's best for the future of humanity and the community of life on Earth? Shall we follow their example and put our heads down and continue to consume, consume, consume? Of course not.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. It beats moving into yurts and having 6.8 billion of us croak
This is our path, our very cultural identity. We gotta keep on truckin!
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Do you agree that many in our culture can't identify with it any longer? nt
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Do you think that some girl having her clit cut off in an indiginous society might have difficulty..
identifying with that society?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #65
69. Genital mutilation occurs in Africa only where fundamentalist Islam is found.
In other words, not in what I'd consider indigenous societies.

To answer your question, absolutely yes.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #69
81. ...and Jerry Falwell & Osama bin Laden both believed Jesus was a prophet of God. nt
Edited on Sat Nov-24-07 05:45 AM by greyl
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #81
90. I can't speak for Osama, but I'd bet good money Falwell would reject the label of prophet for Jesus.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #69
84. Absolute bullshit
Once again, you prove that you have no clue what you are talking about. It guess it's fun to talk about cultures when you can make them up by blowing them out of your ass.

Female circumcision is practiced in Muslim and non-Muslim societies in Africa.

Have you ever read a single book about your so called indigenous societies?
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Soylent Green!
It's what's for dinner!
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. (coffee? meet keyboard) Yes, Mr. Magistrate... that is the nut, isn't it?
Perhaps after the damage is done, the war is fought, the great waves of disease hollow out the crowded places... Perhaps then humankind can reestablish a balanced way of living.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. Sir, I wonder if it's possible to take some of their ideas for adaption or
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 05:56 PM by Uncle Joe
synthesis with our technology? I believe primitive cultures have a certain wisdom about the natural world, that we're just beginning to scratch the surface on. I also believe while their methods are only effective in very low density populations, while ours are suited for high density populations but at an extreme cost to our mid to long term survival as a species. Should we totally assimilate them rashly in to the modern world, I believe we would lose precious information about our natural world forever, that could otherwise be used for humanities long term benefit.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Quite Likely It Is, Sir
There is a sort of 'model farm' described in Mr. Pollen's "Omnivore's Dilemma' that sounds quite intriguing. But at bottom, it remains the case that the present size of the earth's population is dependent on great inputs of energy, and that improvements in public sanitation and medical practice, and the declining lethality of warfare, measured by proportion of casualties to populations involved, taken together with these inputs, ensure numbers much larger than can be supported by the old ways. It is not an accident that population began to sky-rocket after the commencement of the Industrial Age.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
56. Quite likely, and quite necessary as well. nt
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
80. On energy:
It's obvious that it costs a lot of money and energy to produce all the food we need to maintain our population at six billion. But there is an additional, hidden cost that has to be counted in life forms. Put plainly, in order to maintain the biomass that is tied up in the six billion of us, we have to gobble up 200 species a day--in addition to all the food we produce in the ordinary way. We need the biomass of those 200 species to maintain this biomass, the biomass that is in us. And when we've gobbled up those species, they're gone. Extinct. Vanished forever.

In other words, maintaining a population of six billion humans costs the world 200 species a day. If this were something that was going to stop next week or next month, that would be okay. But the unfortunate fact is that it's not. It's something that's going to go on happening every day, day after day after day--and that's what makes it unsustainable, by definition. That kind of cataclysmic destruction cannot be sustained.

The extraordinary thing that is going to happen in the next two or three decades is not that the human race is going to become extinct. The extraordinary thing that's going to happen in the next two or three decades is that a great second renaissance is going to occur. A great and astounding renaissance.

Nothing less than that is going to save us.
more
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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
5. oh gawd here we go again...Rouseaus 'Noble Savage'! the key word is savage folks n/t
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Your assumption is incorrect. nt
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. let's start with my tribe
shall we?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
82. Start what? nt
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
10. thank you for this post
and for those who honor and respect the roots of humanity

http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. Today, the biggest threat to indigenous people isn't the white settler
It is multinational corporate capitalism - specifically mining and energy interests, who look with hungry eyes upon mineral resources in indigenous territory and would go to any lengths to acquire them.

Only a global socialist movement can ensure that their lives, land, rights and cultures are protected and respected and they are treated as *truly* equal - not lesser beings worthy of contempt, pity or idle romanticizing (which is all their supposed 'allies' do)

Building a movement that includes indigenous people is fraught with difficulties for precisely these reasons - the 'allies' have created so much distrust with their arrogance and know-it-all attitude. Is it any wonder that they regard every white person with a tinge of suspicion, even those who stand with them in solidarity?

It is a topic on which I would gladly write more. In short, I realized that to many the color of capitalist exploitation isn't just green, it's green and white. I realized that sometimes we should just shut up and listen.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
40. True.
Edited on Fri Nov-23-07 03:24 AM by greyl
You said "...sometimes we should just shut up and listen". Listen to who?

In my opinion, the main way other so-called primitive cultures should be included in a movement is by their example.

edit:
To describe tribal peoples as socialists makes as much sense to me as describing them as Republicans or Libertarians. Socialism is (to quote from The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia) "a general term for the political and economic theory that advocates collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods." "Means of production" and "distribution of goods" are concepts that arose during the Industrial Revolution and have no sensible application to tribal life. Tribal peoples didn’t have factories where they produced sandals, axe heads, and spear points that were then transported to points of distribution where people with money bought them. "Goods" were not "distributed." If you wanted something, you went and got it. The "goods" of life (whether it was food, wood, stones, or what have you) were not owned "collectively" or by the tribal government. No one owned them, just as no one owned the air or the water or the sunlight.

Species don’t evolve as individual organisms that then by chance come together in a social organization. Rather, they evolve in social organizations--flocks, hives, packs, pods, and so on--and these sustain the individuals. If the social organization of a species doesn’t work, then the species disappears. The social organization humans evolved in is the tribe, which worked for them for millions of years (and still works wherever it hasn’t been destroyed by the people of our culture). By contrast, not a single social organization subsequently invented by the people of our culture has managed to survive for more than a few hundred years (and that only in the midst of wholesale crime, crisis, oppression, corruption, and poverty). In Beyond Civilization (and elsewhere) I’ve tried to point out that many of the benefits of tribalism are still readily available to us individually--and these have nothing whatever to do with socialism.

The fundamental tribal transaction (as described in the essay "Talk About Wealth!" on the website) is "Give support-Get Support" (as opposed to the fundamental capitalist transaction: "Make Products-Get Products"). I have a very tribal relationship with my publisher, which works to our mutual benefit. My wife has a very tribal relationship with the woman who acts as her artist’s representative, which works to their mutual benefit. We have a very tribal relationship with our webmaster, Alan Thornhill, which works to our mutual benefit. But we don’t have a "socialist" relationship with these people (whatever that might be); it has nothing to do with collective ownership and management of anything but only with giving and getting support. We have played important roles in sustaining these people--and they’ve played important roles in sustaining us, and that’s what tribalism is all about.

If you absolutely must relate tribalism to socialism, then it would be reasonable to say that socialism learned some lessons from tribalism (its sense of egalitarianism, for example); to suggest that tribalism learned some lessons from socialism just makes no sense to me; it’s like saying that birds learned some flying lessons from the Wright Brothers.
www.ishmael.org/Interaction/QandA/Detail.CFM?Record=590
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
12. Going back to the old ways or killing off the planet trying to make the modern thing work?
Well I never thought it would come to this, but I guess the planet is going to have to take one for the team.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. "Old ways"? These ways are practiced today.
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 05:40 PM by greyl
That said, I'm not at all suggesting that the people of our culture should go back to the so-called old ways and become hunter gatherers.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
13. The epitome of incoherence
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 05:58 AM by HamdenRice


Once again, you are sharing with us your almost perfectly incoherent ramblings about "indigenous cultures" and how they are different from "dominionist culture."

Unfortunately you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. You have been asked over and over again to define them. You condemn all agricultural societies, then, because you don't have any idea what you are talking about, praise indigenous societies that engage in agriculture. Your ramblings on this topic are so absurd that they border on delusional.

Let me ask you a simple question, and already I know that because you can't answer it, I can expect evasion, misdirection, rhetorical questions and other "stupid human tricks" rather than a straightforward answer.

In Botswana, the majority of people are Bantu-speakers such as the BaKwena, BaKgatla, Bangwato, BaNgwaketsi, BaLete, BaTlokwa and so on. Traditionally, they kept cattle and farmed. They have been in the region for up to 3,000 years. The !Kung who are hunter gatherers and related groups have been there for at least 30,000 years. Which are "indigenous people"? What's your definition of "indegenous." Is it native to the area? Is it hunter gatherer?

If it's the latter, why have you posted an image of a woman who appears to be a Berber -- a member of an Islamic agricultural society that herds animals -- or a south Indian agriculturalist Hindu? Isn't she therefore "dominionist"?

Basically, greyl, you simply have not the foggiest clue what you are talking about.

Moreover, as Magistrate points out, we already have several billion people on the planet who cannot be supported by this magical culture (actually imaginary culture -- it exists only in your mind and in the minds of other equally ignorant neo-primitivists). No one is going to commit suicide so that a few thousand others can wander around in loin cloths.

Your position on this is simply too stupid to engage in seriously. Read a book on anthropology. Go to Africa or India or southeast Asia and live in a village. Learn something real -- anything real -- about this topic, and then get back to us.
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hermetic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Perhaps you should look at
the OP again. Greyl didn't say that. Nativeplanet.org did. Now perhaps Greyl writes for nativeplanet, too. I wasn't able to discern that. But, the OP was just a quote and link to another site. Live and let live, eh.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. It's part of a long-running set
of incoherent posts from the neo-primitivist perspective.

So you are correct, I am objecting to certain things that are part of the larger argument.

But specifically in this post, I am questioning whether greyl has any comprehension of what the term "indigenous" means, or whether "indigenous culture" as he uses it can be defined. And basically he can't. His critique is formless and therefore useless.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Do you have a comment on the content of the OP or anything at Nativeplanet.org?
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 06:13 PM by greyl
One who thoroughly misinterprets and misrepresents my position has zero grounds to call my position stupid.

edit: For example, you claim that I've condemned all agricultural societies("You condemn all agricultural societies"), but that is absolutely false. Once again, you're more interested in ad homs against straw men than having an honest discussion.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. Can you comment on the question you've been asked dozens of times?
Edited on Thu Nov-22-07 07:51 AM by HamdenRice
What is an indigenous culture? It's such a simple question and it is the core of what you constantly bring up, yet you refuse over and over again to even attempt to define it. Your transparent "stupid human trick" of changing the subject is an obvious attempt, once again, to avoid defining what you are talking about.

As for the cite, it completely contradicts your stupid schtick. For example, go to their indigenous culture mapping page and you see lists of "indigenous cultures" like this:

Kenya: El Molo (Elmolo), Kalenjin (Nandi, Naandi, Cemual, Keiyo Keyo, Elgeyo, Kipsigis Kipsiikis, Kipsikis, Kipsikiis, Tugen Tuken, Marakwet, Ogiek Okiek, Ndorbo, Pokot, Pokoot, Suk, Sekei and Terek Nyang'ori, Terikeek), Kikuyu (Gikuyu, Kikuyu), Kisii (Gusii, Kosova, Guzii, Ekegusii), Luhya (Luluyia, Luyia, Baluyia, Luhia), Luo (Jo-Luo, Dholuo, Nilotic Kavirondo, Kavirondo Luo), Maasai (Masai), Meru (Ameru, Mero, Kimeru, Mumeru, Ameroe, Meroe), Samburu (Sambur, Sampur, Burkeneji, El Lokop, Lokop, Loikop, Nkutuk), Swahili (Kiswahili, Kiswaheli, Suahili, Kisuahili, Arab-Swahili, Shirazi, Arab, Bajun)

Almost all of them according to your ludicrous theories about dominionist agriculture are "dominionist agriculturalists" who have cut down forests, planted many varieties of crops, established indigenous forms of property rights, fought over land, traded over long distances, herded millions of head of animals, and grown their populations many fold over what they were just a few centuries ago. In other words, that cite has at least attempted some definition of indigenous culture even if it is misguided and conflicts entirely with what they say they think indigenous culture is on their home page.

You on the other hand are such a hopelessly sloppy thinker that you have never tried to define anything, no doubt because you've never read a book about an actual culture that could plausibly be called indigenous, let alone lived and traveled among such people.

So answer the question. Stop bullshitting and explain what your theory of "indigenous culture" is. If you don't, you will once again confirm you don't have any clue what you are talking about and are just spouting woo woo, New Age, irrational bullshit.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #33
46. You're right - that site has very contradictory ideas of what an 'indigenous culture' is
Edited on Fri Nov-23-07 07:21 AM by muriel_volestrangler
The only one listed for Uzbekistan is Crimean Turkish. And yet the site explains "Stalin deported majority of the Crimean Turkish from the southern shore of the Crimean Peninsula on 18 May 1944 to the central Asian republics, primarily Uzbekistan". If there's anything that's the opposite of 'indigenous', it's "forcibly transplanted within living memory".
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. It's unreasonable to expect each of the thousands of human cultures on Earth
Edited on Fri Nov-23-07 02:46 PM by greyl
to fit neatly into one category or the other. When we speak of culture, do we always demand to include the geography in which the culture exists as part of the definition?

There's no dependable reason to assume cultures aren't "transportable". There may be changes due to a change in local resources, but at their core, they can remain largely intact. Latitude and longitude don't matter. edit: well, latitude could matter if it spells a significant change in available resources and need for certain resources because of different temperatures etc, but that's not the point. Point is, given the same resources and weather, there's nothing preventing a culture from remaining intact when its members are moved. Ours seems to have traveled to all corners of the globe, after all.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Yes, geography is part of the definition - the vital part
"having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment"

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/indigenous

Yes, our culture has spread widely (if we see my culture in the UK, and yours in the USA, as the same, which I would generally agree with). But I thought the point of this thread was that it's not cultures that remain intact that are important, but ones which are indigenous - that are established in the long term in a particular area.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. The descriptor "indigenous" must relate to geography, but culture doesn't.
The word indigenous does have its limitations, but its usually convenient and meaningful, especially when in relation to our global culture. Are nomadic cultures indigenous? If the Moxo of Bolivia were transported to a different planet, they wouldn't fit a rigid definition of indigenous, and may then be better described as traditional or tribal people, I suppose. This issue requires us to speak in generalities occasionally, so it shouldn't get bogged down in quibbling about a perfect definition of indigenous while the more important descriptor - sustainable - is being ignored.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. OK, if the indigenousness of a culture isn't the point
but the sustainability, that's fine. I had thought that website was claiming that being indigenous was important. I don't know what makes the Crimean Turks the sustainable culture in Uzbekistan, though.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. If you know a website that does a better job of gathering basic info
Edited on Sat Nov-24-07 02:50 AM by greyl
about as many of the diverse cultures on Earth as possible, I'd like to check it out. If a couple hundred out of the thousands of cultures listed there blur the line between indigenous and not, or don't seem to be examples of sustainable cultures, big deal. Personally, I'd disqualify any current culture that consumes any resources labeled with a brand name from my idea of sustainable. There are millions of humans on Earth who don't consume brand name products, and I think it's important to think about how they can possibly manage to be happy in spite of that lack.

There is extraordinary evidence that our culture is causing extraordinary damage to its life support system - Earth. Members of our culture are captives of a society that compels its members to consume the world. There are thousands of examples of cultures where this does not occur. It's not because its members are blissfully ignorant savages or unevolved - it's because they have no reason to abandon a lifestyle that has worked for them as long as they can remember.

I believe the following is true: The only place on Earth that sustainable culture/lifestyle can presently be found is in cultures that you and I agree can accurately be described as indigenous.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
54. You need to retract your false accusation.
You claim that I've condemned all agricultural societies("You condemn all agricultural societies"), but that is absolutely false. Once again, you're more interested in ad homs against straw men than having an honest discussion.

As that statement of yours follows a long line of misrepresentations about me, eg that I'm a right-wing government agent who has fashioned an elaborate online identity, I don't expect you to retract it, but I have no reason to encourage your use of straw arguments and falsehoods.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #54
93. Answer the question
You are demonstrating, once again, that your theory of indigenous societies is just crap.

You continue to throw around stupid straw men, to answer the question with questions, and do everything other than demonstate that you know anything about "indigenous cultures."

So once again: Can you describe the characteristics of an indigenous culture (and not negative attributes such as "they don't have dominionist agriculture); and can you describe even one practice of theirs and how we could adopt it?

Obviously you can't answer those fundamental questions.
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Agriculture isn't inherently bad
but when you have the means to produce large supplies of food regardless of the weather, your population no longer rises and falls depending on droughts or good weather as that of other species does. Then it becomes necessary to have some way of stopping the population from rising uncontrollably, or you will have more people than can be fed, and as the population continues to rise, there will be more people starving in each generation.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
16. The "Noble Savage" is a racist myth.
I have no use for New Age romanticism. The future of our planet depends of technology, not going ga-ga over romanticized primitive societies.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Good thing the OP has nothing to do with perpetuating it. nt
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 06:08 PM by greyl
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Uhm, the "Noble Savage" myth
comes straight out of the Enlightenment. It's closely related to the idea that the so-called "common man" is capable of self-governance and had considerable influence on the late-eighteenth-century democratic revolutions. It's always been popular in the US in the form of the frontiersman/cowboy mythos. (Davy Crockett, The Virginian, etc.)

Now, that's not to say that the OP isn't infested with its own form of racist woo. But it's at least preferable to the pontifications of a talking gorilla.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. Learn more about what you're trying to talk about here:
The silly notion of “purity” that could never work in a truly primitive life aside, this is largely true. Most of the great movements in history were essentially primitivists; Jesus, Martin Luther, and many, many others held essentially primitivist views, and sought to push back the overwhelming, dehumanizing complexity of civilization back. Today, we know that civilization is defined by its unhealthy relationship with complexity,46 and that complexity is subject to diminishing returns.47 In that pattern, civilization damns itself to collapse. Primitivism makes sense of that pattern, and offers hope for the future by throwing light on just how dehumanizing civilization is.

Those who beat the drum most loudly against the “Noble Savage” are also those with the most religious zeal—not necessarily in Christianity or any other conventional religion, but in progress.48 A fine example can be found in Bruce Thornton’s Plagues of the Mind:

By denigrating Western civilization—the imperfect but still best hope for controlling humanity’s penchant for evil and for providing the greatest freedom for the greatest number of people—the myth of the noble savage nurtures the false hope that human perfection and freedom are possible without civilization.


What is most interesting here is that in this volume dedicated to seperating “good knowledge” form “bad knowledge,” Thornton preaches so dogmatically about how important it is to never question the importance of civilization. We must ignore the fact that is has increased the level of violence in our world from an occasional and limited affair to an ubiquitous way of life, the way it has decimated the living world and brought on a new mass extinction, the way it has institutionalized deceit, treachery and alienation, and the way it has even broken us down as human beings, stripped us of our health, our senses, and ultimately, even our personhood and dignity. This must never be questioned, Thornton urges. We must not doubt civilization; we must maintain our faith.

more
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. Wait, what?
Those who beat the drum most loudly against the “Noble Savage” are also those with the most religious zeal—not necessarily in Christianity or any other conventional religion, but in progress.

Or maybe some of us would rather not treat indigenous folks like some kind of bizarre ass shining beacon of hope, and as just people--some with good ideas, some with bad ideas.

I felt ambivalent about the OP but that quote is just a hot mess and it makes a lot of fucked up assumptions.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. The people being talked about there, are those who make proclamations of faith
in our Rube Goldbergian cultural structure.

What fucked up assumptions are you talking about?
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. Criticizing the Noble Savage myth
I don't like that assumption that people who criticize the Noble Savage myth are inherently proponents of progress at all costs. Sure, you see a lot of that in conservative academia (particularly among ultra right-wingers, usually with a dash of anti-multiculturalism). But among the common folk? Not so much. I don't see anything wrong with criticizing civilization, but at the same time the Noble Savage thing is just the flipside of the White Man's Burden and both are equally heinous. I have met way too many well-meaning white folks who almost fetishize Native peoples and their commitment to nature (particularly in the alternative religious community) and it makes me really uncomfortable. It's not that big of a leap from admiring such a commitment as something to emulate (which is laudable), and appropriating culture (so not laudable). As a Pagan, I see this a lot. I think one can have a problem with that sort of thing, and not necessarily do so because "progress" by Western civ's definition of the word is inherently "better".

I guess I just don't see things in black and white in that way. It doesn't need to be an either/or proposition, and this is where I find problems with both the "civilization at all costs" folks and the "kill your tv and go back to the land" folks. There has to be a happy medium between having toilet paper and raping the planet.

I hope that made sense. I suspect we're on the same page, but just getting bogged down by language and particulars.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #68
74. Ah. It says "Those who beat the drum most loudly against the “Noble Savage...".
I think that means that there are others who criticize the myth of the Noble Savage with all the best reasons.
The author of the piece, Jason Godesky, does so himself.

Like you, I'm bothered by the behavior of well meaning folks who almost accidentally minimilize and cheapen the value of humans in other cultures. I think the following link describes what we agree upon well.

www.ishmael.org/Education/Parables/Rapanah.shtml

...

There is a sense in which I am the "discoverer" of Leaver culture, the first to recognize that Leaver peoples are something more than merely "primitive," that they possess a secret that kept them alive through three million years and that will keep US alive -- if only we'll listen to it.

New Age hucksters have a different interest in Leaver peoples. They want to plunder them for their Tava stones -- their sweat lodges, their medicine wheels, their shamanic rituals, and so on. Once they have these, they throw away the rest -- they've got what they came for. There are plenty of people who want the Tava stones, as these hucksters know, people who care nothing about the Rapanah or their wisdom. They're hungry for novelties and especially for "comforting" novelties, novelties that make them feel more "spiritual" and less empty. May they live long and prosper.

The ultimate point of this parable, I suppose, is that not all explorers are looking for the same thing.

www.ishmael.org/Education/Parables/Rapanah.shtml
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #74
88. "Comforting novelties" --wow, that says it all
That's a good way of putting it. I see these frauds and fake Indians running around packaging and re-selling "Native American culture" (whatever that is--these guys never get into actual tribes, just this nebulous NA thing) and it really disgusts me. I've been really sensitive about this sort of thing since I moved to the Southwest, because it's really bad out here.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #68
83. A coherent post!

clap clap!

I was beginning to think this thread was doomed.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. A complete non sequitur, as usual.
n/t
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. No, it expands on the subject, not changes it. nt
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Whatever.
The person who called the "Noble Savage" mythos New Age woo was someone else; I merely pointed out to him that it had its genesis in the so-called Age of Reason by one of that Age's most prominent thinkers.

Not that it matters. You've demonstrated many times that your thinking processes are not like our Earth thinking processes.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. I merely offered you more information about the myth of the noble savage. nt
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. No. You suggested that I "learn more"
about what I was "trying to talk about," O Enlightener of the Supposedly Ignorant.

As an actual idigenous person, I'm heartily sick of the patronizing BS spewed by wannabe "primitives." If you want to live by munching acorns and roasting ground squirrels over a fire started by rubbing sticks, go for it. Just don't expect a lot of indigenous company round your cheery little campfire.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #67
71. Please forgive me for encouraging you to learn and providing the material to do so.
Edited on Sat Nov-24-07 02:09 AM by greyl
You called yourself an actual indigenous person. What does that mean? In other threads, you've also made excuses for Christian missionaries who helped destroy the culture of the First Americans. To me, that doesn't make sense.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. Oh noes, a Native American that doesn't fit the delusions of the romanticists, LOL!!!
Edited on Sat Nov-24-07 02:26 AM by Odin2005
I see an aneurysm coming! :rofl:
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. Wayne Newton is a so-called Native American, but he's a member of OUR culture.
Edited on Sat Nov-24-07 02:35 AM by greyl
Having spoken with his relatives living on a reservation whom he never communicates with, I have no delusions that people with a certain genetic makeup must all live the same way. Do you understand the difference between culture and the fabricated divisions of race?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #76
92. It's the romanticists that don't understand the distinction between culture and race. n/t.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #38
72. What a load of BS.
Primitive societies are on average more violent per capita then modern societies. More romantic claptrap.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. Can you support your claim? Let's see the evidence. nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #77
91. Go read "Before the Dawn", a good book on human prehistory.
Edited on Sat Nov-24-07 02:18 PM by Odin2005
The author goes after the notion of primitive societies being "peaceful," stating that 60-somthing % of primitive societies were warring almost all the time and that 80-something % of such societies engaged in warfare on at least a very regular basis. He also criticizes archaeologists that he claims glosses over evidence of violence because it doesn't fit the politically correct conceptions of primitive societies.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
43. "preferable to the pontifications of a talking gorilla"
Priceless! Is the pontificating talking gorilla related to the signifying monkey?!

:rofl:
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #43
78. A talking gorilla, how evil. Counter-cultural art must be suppressed at all costs.
The point I'm trying to make in all my work is this: "If we want to survive on this planet, we must listen to what our neighbors in the community of life have to tell us." Thus it made sense for the teacher in Ishmael to be one of those neighbors---a nonhuman. Among those neighbors none is more impressive and authoritative than a gorilla (which is why I chose to make Ishmael a gorilla rather than, say, a parrot or a salmon).

For anyone interested in studying this question more deeply, I highly recommend the monograph "Apes of the Imagination: A Bibliography" by Marion W. Copeland.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #78
85. No one is supressing anything. We are callling out bullshit.
Edited on Sat Nov-24-07 11:40 AM by HamdenRice
Your entire schtick is such utter and transparent bullshit. Can you define one attribute of an "indigenous" culture? Can you name even one practice they carry out that might be useful? (Btw, I know they exist because I have actually lived in developing countries and advised government clients on sustainability in some cases based on older practices, but you are just playing make believe.)

What a tosser you are. You never answer any questions because you are clueless.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
73. I have little respect for Rousseau.
Rousseau's vulgar and crude proto-Romanticism, the myth of the Noble Savage included, was the begriming of the end of the Enlightenment.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
50. baloney.
the bahai concept is much more realistic.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
86. 6.999 billion of us should commit suicide so 100,000 white guys
who are north American and western European libertarian, social Darwinist, neo-primitives can run around in loin cloths pretending to hunt and gather. That's really what this post comes down to.

Unfortunately, the proponents of this crap are so cluelessly ignorant of the cultures they patronize that when the Campbell's soup cans run out, they would starve to death because they actually have no idea how to hunt or gather anything that isn't on google. That's why neo-tribalism is a mind-numbingly stupid idea.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. LOL!
You sir, win the thread. :rofl:
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