Deer is tasty, land preservation is good, get some context..

Remember context clues from school. Some posters really need them.

Hunters, Farmers, and Environmental Protection groups work together much more than they disagree. They are united against sprawl.

Habitat destruction is far more damaging than farming or hunting. They are mutually exclusive. Hunters want a place to hunt.

If you moved from a city to a new house in a rural area, you are the problem. Play golf?

If you live in Manhattan (or other megalopolis), work in an office, commute on a train, worry about your covenants, and don't know what the ag department does you probably don't have the context required to judge people you have not met.

These days most hunters I meet are upper middle class or rich. Because many middle income and low income people can't afford to lease hunting rights or buy land at 5 to 10k an acre.

Here is a clue. If you eat meat, someone shot it in the head with a bolt gun, bled and gutted it. That process involves death and bad smells. This person in this day in time is probably an illegal immigrant.

That process is no different than shooting a deer with a rifle. In the end it is dead.

Steak, chicken, and fish, do not leave the farm in plastic wrap.

You eat long lined fish? Go smash a sea turtle to death, you do the same by purchasing those products.

If you do not like hunting, don't hunt. Post your property. Call the warden on trespassers.

Wishing death on people who hunt makes you appear to be a giant moron.

In the big picture there are real issues that need attention.

END RANT.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but it's interesting none-the-less.

people out of control. Wishing death on other people. Bizzaro behavior.

I never post topics, so my presentation is probably pretty bad.

methods of slaughter for the food on our plate. Also, as I pointed out in the other thread, a LOT of those middle class and rich donate the meat to help the needy.

I agree with you. Growing up in Wisconsin and knowing the hunters personally has given me perspective.

The anti-seal hunt faction likes to play up the hand held pick that used to be used more often, because it's more violent and bloody, but the reality is the vast majority of seals harvested are shot.

No point. Just commenting on the topic.

in the US. There is no industrial demand for deer or upland game birds.

Killing seals for fur marketed to consumers is not something I condone.

if you're in favor of deer hunting, then you can't object to the seal hunt on humanitarian grounds.

The seal hunt is quite small, in relative terms.

I will happily discuss the seal hunt on a different thread. I do not think they compare. However I am not Canadian, I have no cultural or environmental context to draw from.

Post one and invite comments. Discussing it here will muddy the already dingy waters.

how is it you believe it's "apples and oranges"?

I do not live in Canada. I do not know the politics behind, culture of, and environmental impact of seal hunting. Most people here do not.

If someone is gathering an animal for food for their personal consumption I could see that. If they are killing it for profit at a detriment to the environment, no.

I don't have the context to make an informed comment beyond that.

If that's the case, then the hunt does not threaten the population.

So, you should be ok with it.

humans have driven out many of the predators that do/did the job naturally.

In some places they are so abundant they are a nuisance. I object to hunting seals because the only reason they do so is to make some rich person a fur coat. I would only agree with seal hunting if it was to preserve a native way of life or culture, because that is usually done sustainably.

It is possible to favor deer hunting and yet object to seal hunting because they are done for two different purposes. I suspect that the Canadian seal hunts continues for the same reason Japanese whaling does: they simply do not like being told their actions are sustainable.

Deer populations are managed scientifically. Hunters are permitted only one or two every year. They are managed in such a way to ensure the populations continue.

is there any?

Science is involved in the development of the hunt quotas, and a seal census is conducted scientifically.

Nowadays the pelts are a secondary profit to the idea that massacring seals is going to make the cod come back. never mind that the seals don't eat the cod - they eat the fish that eat the cod. Plus all the Goofy Newfies who think this is a sacred tradition because their great great great great grandpa clobbered seals... sure, mine harpooned whales, doesn't mean I'm about to sign on on the Nisshin Maru.

nice

I happen to count anyone who thinks wholesale slaughter of sea mammals is okay for "old time's sake" as a very stupid person. Is this going to be a problem?

on edit: oh.... that wasn't a reply to me.

I mean, if you want to jump in and start a fight, have at it. I'm game.

On edit, it appears that maybe that's what you want.

Gauntlet thrown.

I thought that was a reply to me. I edited to correct myself.

You know that you can delete the whole thing.

If you're REALLY interested in the truth, you should be aware of it. I know Canadian seals is one of your favorite topics, so I'm a little surprised you're not up to speed.

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Yeah, I'll beat this to death, and the mods can delete it at will.

Have at it, poster.

rifle. The Elk dropped immediately, might have been dead before it hit the ground. The hunter has been eating that Elk for a year now. There's no antibiotics, no growth hormones, just good water and fresh plants entered this animal. The animal lived his life free until he became food, unlike the fish a cattle most eat. He wasn't caged and crowded. Hunting is more humane than the factory farming we now see.

If you have ever been down wind to a feed lot, you will not want corporate meat.

I know hunters too. I'm not impressed.

:hide:

a few hundred miles. There is(was) a large push for a union at Smithfield's. They employ many thousands of workers. The anti union commercials in english and spanish were over the top.

I am not a union member and do business with both union and non union shops and found it pretty bad.

...not like my father who used his vacation time (union printer - he actually made enough money to do this stuff back then (until the 80's when the pricks took over government)) to go elk and deer hunting every fall... but I agree with you 100%.

A lot of the land he hunted on is now peppered with McMansions. He can't afford to hunt in Washington state anymore.

Although I have firearms, I consider myself an archer, and enjoy primitive archery specifically. I've always wanted to go on a hunt with just my longbow, but just have never had the time. Anyway, I'll quit tangentalizing and say again, good rant.

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Due to number of factors- not the least of which involves the cattle and sheep ranching- means that a managed hunt is required to keep population levels under control. Otherwise, there'll be major winter kill- which is far less human to whole herds than the taking of specific animals.

Now, trophy hunting, trapping or bounties- that's a different deal entirely- and I am prepared to call many of those folks sick.

:D

but killing your own deer is heinous. WE've got more deer in this county than people. You cant raise a rosebush, a green bean or a fruit tree without putting an 8 foot fence around it. They have no predators except man. Without hunting pressure populations build up, then collapse. Hunters serve the natural order. That's a good thing.

So the anti-hunters who eat "free range" chicken are really no better than those who eat their chicken bought at Wal-Mart.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range

through which the chickens never go. They must remain inside for the first few weeks of their lives (which are only measured in weeks) so that by the time they are allowed out, they are not in the habit of doing so. So they don't. "Free range" is a marketing ploy just like "organic" is. Essentially meaningless.

I have no issue with hunting at all. Or fishing. They can be managed sustainably (although often are not- there are problems especially in commercial fishing).

See, supermarkets don't sell meat that comes from real animals, they sell meat that comes in styrofoam and plastic containers. Styrofoam and plastic was never alive, it doesn't suffer, and it's entirely guilt-free. No animals really had to die to make the meat in the store. On the other hand, hunters kill deer that only want to live and pick flowers and dance in the woods with their wildlife friends.

until the last few yeas of his life. one sub zero morning he walked into our farm house drank a half a glass of cold sake and went on about his fox hunting...he was 65 years old. he was an nra member until he found out they were backing semi autos for hunting...did`t seem very supporting to him...

a herd became so bad along the woods where i live that the county had to bring in bow hunters to thin out the herd. the herd or herds were growing to the point they were running out of food. yes some people have no clue about what it is like out in the country where most if not all the predators are gone. i`m not sure what will happen when hunting is no longer passed on from generation to generation, this is what is happening in wisconsin, i guess we will thin out the herds with our cars...my wife and i have bagged two deer.

there is a preconceived notion that all people who hunt are rabid nra, ignorant, right wing nuts. Some are, some are not. I have met many very nice people over the years. A few idiots but that goes for anything.

There are the Stereotypes and people who dont tell their co-workers or friends they like to go hunting because they will judge them.

But they have to be polite and ask for permission first. As long as they follow those rules and don't accidentally shoot our livestock (or us) I'm okay with them thinning the herd.

But the bear and moose are absolutely off limits.

The problem is, many hunters are careless, and that's why so many landowners don't allow hunting.

I insist my guests do NOT do anything I would not do. There is a gentleman's agreement most people will follow. If someone asks I will almost always let them hunt.

If they dont behave they don't get invited back. Never had to do that.

Due to the liability I do insist people waive us from any liability their estate may bring in the event of their death or injury.

That sucks, having to do that to your friends, but having my place taken from me by someones grown kid if they break their own neck would be worse.

size of deer herd 1.8 million ( those "damn madison liberal biologists" and their management of the herd)
# of hunters 630,000 (fewer and fewer evry year)
# of fatalities 3 (second safest year ever)
they are hoping for a harvest of 400,000

estimate cost of crop damge due to deer=??
cost of deer/auto accidents=??
revenue genarated by state deer hunt=??

Over 350,000 pounds every season feeds the needy. Just in Wisconsin.

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DEER IS GROSS!!! I had some once and it was like road kill in a crock pot. Blech!!

I agree though that people should think about what is behind those plastic packages at the market. Personally I'd rather eat wild game than the factory-farmed shit. It's one thing to shoot something and eat it and a whole other thing to raise these animals in little boxes stacked on top of each other, if you don't care about the ethics of it, the truth is it is A REALLY FILTHY WAY TO RAISE LIVESTOCK!

it was prepared incorrectly. Now, I will not say it is the same as prime rib. But if left to age and properly handled is is very good. People go wrong in a couple ways. Not cleaning an animal soon enough and not letting it age are the big ones. All good meat is aged.

I have paid gourmet price for venison meals in europe.

I NEVER eat pork, and eat very little red meat. It is getting more difficult to eat a healthy diet. Venison does not have the chemicals used on most livestock. It is certainly more expensive to eat healthy these days.

I know in Finland you were more likely to be eating reindeer than beef as that was what was most plentiful there. I've rarely had deer in this country that didn't taste gamey though. Also, if deer isn't naturally more gamey tasting, why is deer jerky much more gamey tasting than beef? I still think it is a lot easier to screw up deer than beef.

If you're ever in L.A. with money burning a hole in your pocket come to Saddlepeak Lodge -- old movie star haunt in the mountains overlooking Malibu, they only have wild game and fish flown in from all over the country. Ostrich, buffalo, venison, trout, you name it.

I think if you're going to eat meat, eat that kind. I'd rather eat the bad crock-pot deer a suffered through (in Lake Placid, NY) than a Mickey Dee's hamburger. THAT IS REALLY GROSS!!!

is QUITE tasty. A common treat here in mid-Missouri. And let me just thow the $.02 in: I HATE the idea of hunting, but it's a needed thing here, as elsewhere, because humans killed off all the big predators. And a lot of that meat gets donated to agencies who can use it to feed hungry people.

Most deer hunted from state farm lands usually have a more gamey taste to them because Game Wardens regularly put out salt blocks during non-hunting seasons.

But if you get a deer that has been living on farm property - well those are usually the best. The deer is getting a healthier diet and it shows in the tastes.

Most of the venison I've had comes from private property either in NC PA or Perry County - all private land

is part of the reason that rural working class
VOTERS tend to view Democrats(intellectuals)as elitist.
Don't believe me tho, go read "Deer Hunting With Jesus"
http://www.joebageant.com/joe/

Hunting is as sacred as religion to untold numbers of rural men.

Now, does anyone have a good recipe for bear meat?
My boss killed a huge one yesterday. He promised
to bring me some bear steak in the morning...
I'm being polite and I'll pretend it was greasy but delicious.
What to do? Maybe I should flash freeze it and send it to Steven Colbert??
Give him a chance to bite back for humanity's sake?

revolutionary socialists, veterans of the street wars of the 1930s...These were his closest friends. These were working class people: teamsters, boilermakers and longshoreman. And somehow, in spite of this fact, many working class people were wooed away from the Left to become Reagan Democrats...and why? Because of the perception of the Left (Dems and everyone else left of them)that seemed to spin out of control in the 70's as elitists, and snobs, completely out of touch with working class interests.

This is why I continue to insist that the Left in America screwed up in taking on tangetal issues before guaranteeing economic justice for all. Economic justice must come first, otherwise you get what we have today: an ant hill that's been blown to bits by some kid's M80.

wouldn't know the American working class if a longshoreman rear-ended their Prius (nothing against hybrids, just being snarky). It's simply a different movement from the 30s, or even the 60s. Not to say working-class elements still aren't active on the American Left, but the political left in this country is so infested with yuppy Liberal lefties, the boho chic, identity politics "I'm more oppressed than you" types, niche activists with no vision beyond their pet issue, and bourgoeis student activists, it's sometimes hard to tell.

THAT is a big issue.

Although I agree with you on every point, I think vision is the big one.

The one single thing that stands out for me is that the kind of leftie we are talking about - the working class - once had a vision of a better society, in particular by democratizing the workplace and guaranteeing equal access to everyone that wanted to work. That vision has been abandoned, or smashed, or simply demoralized out of existance and replaced by defeatist doctrine of going along with the status quo and saying fuck you to your neighbor, so long as one's own paychecks are coming in. The society has been led to believe that we live in a 'meritocracy' despite the fact that the game is rigged. They've been taught to believe that cancerous individualism is more important than community. And their pursuit of better wages and benefits been bought off by access to credit, even though it traps them in a double bind that creates a genuinely false and enslaving sense of prosperity.

You're right, the movement is different today. But though the ideas and demographics may have shifted, the basic need - economic justice, remains the primary issue. Without it, who gives a shit about the rest? When you're not making enough money to pay the mortgage, or live in fear of getting ill because you don't have medical insurance, who the hell cares about the way a chicken spends its life or whether a cow is brought down by a pneumatic hammer or a 30-06?

he has always said, Unless you are making a more than a million dollars you can't afford to be a Republican.

It is not classist or race based, or geographic. I work for a living, policy that helps me is important.

Single issues like gun control, abortion, and the like shatter the big picture.

Do you get up and go to work for someone? Yes? Then it is probably in your best interest to vote D.

I dont talk politics at work, I work in machine shops. I constantly see guys who are very right wing but are getting burned at their job.

Those pesky "wedge" issues we can't unite on
and that won't go away prevent any real progress.
We are "allowed" to protest damn near anything (and do)
because it's an energy draining diversion from the real
issues of corporate control of...damn near everything!

Check out http://www.joebageant.com/joe/
He's good old boy redneck turned socialist writer/essayist.
His book (and on line essays) absolutely nail whats going on in rural factory towns
re the plight of the average working man.

In Nevada, you can't oppose hunting, nor should you. It's our only real chance to get many people out here to give environmental concerns any consideration at all.

Eating meat, hunted or raised on a farm is lacking in need. Based in want.

No biggie, but that's what it is.

Flame away.

The fact that 25% of some nations are infected with HIV warrants attention.

I think everyone should have a choice to run their life in a responsible way, as long as it does not impede others.

Deer populations are exploding. This harms our ecosystem. Deer browsing prevents the regeneration of forests as deer eat nearly all the tree seedlings, destroy forest understory plants, and reduce overall species richness. Several studies found that deer browsing significantly reduces songbird numbers by destroying their habitats.

That's why more doe tags are issued and one must "earn" a buck tag.

I'd say there's a need.

That's nice.

any type of allegedly expanding populations.

Hundreds of thousands of pounds of meat are donated in this state alone every season.

What do you suggest? Birth control? Big pharma might like that idea, but I don't.

Because there's need for food? Because people are poor and need it?

Like I said, there's a better solution on both counts.

I can't teach the blind to read, so please don't ask me to.

Did you grow 350,000 pounds of lima beans to feed thoe poor last year?

Yeah, thought not.

Not everyone is or has an ounce of desire to be a "vegan". That doesn't make us blind or stupid.

Glad to see YOUR side go to prejudice against being vegan rather than supporting being rational.

Go look for irrational somewhere else. I'm sure there's a support group for the likes of you.

population explosion and all of the harm that it's causing. Because it is.

And, the fact is, hunting is one way to help control it. In addition to helping control the herds, people eat. People who may not have otherwise eaten. They eat. They eat food that you don't, but they eat.

Two birds, one stone - hunting helps control the population and people eat. It's a valid point and a valid argument no matter how nastily you call me "irrational".

As a vegan, you may not want to face the fact that hunting is, in fact, ecologically friendly, but it is. Many vegetarian environmentalists participate every year to help on all counts: to thin the herds for the environment and feed the hungry.

Dismiss idiotic talking points.

Good night.

Yet you share nothing. You don't try to convince, you only try to insult.

You should be ashamed.

Pity.

I still can't figure out just what your solution is.

The problem is that too many animals--in this case, predators--have been killed. Killing more animals isn't going to solve the problem. Balancing the ecology will.

Hunting isn't solving this problem.

Actually, I find this part of the argument lacking. In my experience most of the anti-hunting arguments stop at "We shouldn't hunt", and never give any alternatives to hunting for population management. What are your ideas?

See? Just like global warming is a made up talking-point, so is the white-tail population explosion.

To prevent starvation of the species and for our environments sake.

Hunting is a practical way to do this. The additional benefit is that people eat.

In many forests, trees are effectively not reproducing because deer gobble up seedlings before they can get established. In other places deer have put many wildflower species in danger of local extinction. Deer also have a more indirect effect on their surroundings. UW botany professor Don Waller points out that too many deer may have a cascading effect by tipping the balance in favor of some invasive plants which often have further detrimental effects on the environment.

Educate us on the life-r-death need on that topic, k?

Thanks.

I was referring to the word "need" as it was used in post 73. I suggest before you post in a sub-thread you make sure you've understood the conversation as it developed.

didn't manage them to accommodate the hunters.

You're kidding, right?

negates your influence to inform people about the uneccessary nature of meat consumption.

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It smacks of an O'Leilly anti war on Christmas rant.

Can there be an antagonist without a protagonist?

with people wishing death on other people for hunting was my point. Pretty poorly written, basically that hunting is not evil. It is not compulsory and people have a choice to not participate.

Some of the WACK responses are pretty impressive.

Never thought this post would draw so many comments.

I'd like to know.

In fact, if anyone knows the most ecologically sustainable fish species, I'd also like to know.

Thanks!

I don't eat fish that often. But I'd like to make choices that are best for the survival of species themselves.

I had a look at your link. I like that it addresses the relative damages that fisheries do to habitats and populations as well as toxicity.

Thanks.

for some of these animals. Leatherbacks, green, and Ripley's are all critically endangered because of humans. There is no other valid reason for their decline.

Nesting sites destroyed, long lines, netting, and other actions will probably lead these animals to extinction in the next 100 years.

200 million years of existence wiped out.

Some states use hunting and culling of feral pigs to prevent the destruction of their nests.

The big picture is that we have become less connected to the land, most people have no exposure to farming.

Hunting is part of a culture that while not environmentalist does require natural resources.

Making that community part of the political process, or at least not alienating them is important.

I can easily straddle the line of land owner, agriculture, and Democrat. If we make it easier for more people that is a good thing.

I live rural as well and have no problem with hunting/hunters as long as they're consuming the quarry, even if I don't participate.

Hunters, anglers and farmers (in the traditional sense) are allies in conservation, not the enemy.

However, I have no use for trophy hunters or destructive exploiters of the land.

Generalist freshwater fish that breed like crazy.

I have to confess, I was anti-hunting when I was a kid in NYC. Since age 18, I have lived in rural locations, including some places (Humboldt, CA for example) where the deer and feral hogs are so thick that the forests no longer regenerate tree seedlings any more. This has taught me the importance of hunting. I may even take it up myself one of these days...

-app

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:popcorn:

and I don't think people who hunt "like killing" as someone mentioned above. As a matter of fact, my husband is leaving for a big hunting trip later this week, and I hope he comes home with some game. No, he doesn't enjoy killing. He enjoys getting his meat in the age-old tradition of stalking wild game in the forest. He enjoys spending time in the woods and observing nature. He enjoys the "craft" of hunting. (He uses primitive weapons.) I prefer his wild game over buying meat from a big corporation that rapes the land and treats their animals inhumanely. At least the meat my husband will bring home is without hormones and antibiotics since the animal has been eating a natural diet. The animal will have lived a normal, natural life. I don't understand people who eat meat yet denigrate hunters. Don't they see that they are just letting someone else do their dirty work for them?

grounds? Does he use a GPS to track his position?

How...primitive of him.

I use a high powered rifle and high end optics. Laser range finder to compensate for drop and even have those little sunflower wind indicators out to correct for drift. Basically puts a shot under a silver dollar at 250 yards, every time.

Sometimes I set up on my back porch, drinking coffee, and listening to morning edition. That requires my wife to be on an early shift. Not a typical hunt but it works when I am feeling lazy or cold.

At 200 yards they have no idea you are there. Not a challenge, or thrill, just business.

Of course you can stalk them in the woods with a shotgun or still hunt from a stand for a traditional hunt

Dead is dead.

You sum up the hunting mentality perfectly.

to venison stew. I have great respect for everyones choice here. You can choose not to hunt. Some choose primitive weapons to make a more challenging ans skillful hunt.

As long as fences are not involved a hunt is a hunt.

I can choose to hunt in full camo with a bow, or with a rifle while posting here from my porch.

I prefer the rifle because it is the most efficient and effective. Instant death is the result of a proper rifle shot.

Each is legal and a valid pursuit.

Again, if you do not like hunting, don't go.

He can read a map just fine. But yes, he does get to the grounds in a truck with his other hunting buddies. It's kinda hard to walk to New Mexico from California.

Edited to add: the primitive weapon he uses is a muzzle loader. I suppose any type of firearm isn't all that primitive, although it does qualify for the primitive license. The point I was trying to make is that there are aspects of hunting someone can enjoy without necessarily getting off on the killing part. I don't really believe my husband enjoys that part all that much.

Thanks, Pavulon.

of articulating their position in at least a semi-sensitive way (knowing that there are many animal lovers here), they're provoking them with comments like, "deer is tasty" and "stocking my freezer with X,Y,Z" meat.

And most provocative are the in your face recipes for deer, or whatever.

You don't think that's going to draw a hostile response from some?

After reading through that first thread, it became very clear to me that there were hunters who were intentionally writing things to hurt and provoke.

Fine, hunt if you want.

But there is a way to articulate why you enjoy hunting, etc. with empathy, rather than meanness.

Your logic doesn't belong here.

:thumbsup:

to those wishing death on hunters. I dont post very often so the post is less than eloquent.

The point that urban sprawl and habitat destruction is something we can all agree on was supposed to jump out. It was a long day, so I may have missed it.

As with most topics on DU you have passionate people on both sides who often go over the top in their own comments and then react like victims when hit by the same type of comments from the other side.

It's the loss of basic civility, especially on the internet.

Thanksgiving thread, I observed hunter taunting first.

That's why I worded my post the way I did.

Vegans are often derided at DU (and in American society at large) for being intolerant, idiotic, fundamentalist, etc., but I rarely see a reasoned justification for hunting put forth, either.

"Meat is tasty" isn't a philosophical defense of factory farming or hunting. If vegans are expected to defend their "outlandish" choices, I can't understand why those who kill animals for sport and/or taste should be exempted from this requirement.

Cue "I had a tasty steak last night" responses in 3...2...1...

Real discussion about how the hunter is an environmentalist. Discussion about the MAJOR issues that the white-tail population causes and how hunting can assist with that issue and get the added benefit of feeding people.

Or... just look down your nose in what is now DU's legendary "righteous vegan indignation" and accuse others of mistreatment.

Not once did I claim that hunters were anti-environment.
Not once did I claim that deer overpopulation is not a problem.
Not once did I claim to be holier-than-thou because of my dietary choices.

I saw a moderate, reconciliatory post with which I agreed and in which I found merit, and I lauded the poster. When did that become a crime on DU? Do I need to respond to every single freakin' post in a thread to avoid claims of cherry-picking?

Get. A. Grip.

One that is practical, has deep roots, helps the evironment and feeds people.

I bet that beats the pants off the the amount of tofu donated in the same timeframe.

There are more deer now than there were when Europeans first arrived. I'm guessing this has to do with Europeans killing off their natural predators.

And you haven't put the food pantries out of business either.

Very classy.

:hi:

:hi:

Okay, I'm the first the admit I have no idea what is going on inside your head.

So if it's not misplaced anger, it's misplaced X. Please help us understand what X is.

(I don't think the misplaced part could be under any doubt, given that I didn't do any of the horrible things you've projected upon me. Or if I have, please quote them. Thanks.)

I have found myself in the situation where I was agreeing with a coworker from Texas who was also a conservationist, but for different reasons. I'll take a hunter over a coal mine any day.

I've eaten venison. Many times. A long time ago. Tried it every way you can cook meat.

It's just not that good.

Now, if you really want to eat game meat, I recommend a Brazilian big rodent called paca. Delicious.

That is just amazing. She's from Puerto Rico, and has a huge herb and vegetable garden that she uses for all her cooking. She brings a batch of herbs and pastes up here to Minnesota when she comes to visit, and works magic with them.

I've begged her to tell me what her secret ingredients are, but refuses until I marry her granddaughter :)

But, I'm not accepting an invitation to My Dinner With Chiguhr!

I know in Pennsylvania there are foodbanks across the state that will gladly accept unwanted deer. That's free, healthy meat that can be used for soupkitchens

From what I have seen a lot of the DU anti-hunting ideas come from watching Walt Disney cartoons as if they were documentaries. Complete lack of knowledge of the circumstances.

"...someone shot it in the head with a bolt gun, bled and gutted it."

The difference to me lies in the distinction between the person who enjoys engaging in the above activity and the one who does not. The latter do it simply for a paycheck, while the former do it for an absurd sense of enjoyment that seems to border on an almost pornographic deification of death.


"In the big picture there are real issues that need attention."

There are many people here who can juggle more than one issue at a time, so there's no need to concern yourself over that bit...

Who deifies killing a deer? The problem is not that hunters revel in death, the problem is that anti-hunters project that image onto them.

Jim, Rudy, Chris, Cooper, etc...


Just the hunters I know (or knew, to be more precise). Like I had said previously, this is only my perspective.

But to be honest, I've never known a hunter who didn't enjoy the kill.

Including myself.

yum

I am NOT a hunter. However I have hunted. A couple of times. Only got a kill once. I was 9.

My Mother's boyfriend was an avid hunter. Everyday, he either hunted or fished on his land. He was quite accomplished as a hunter well. He used to train the guys that trained the cops.

He made take a hunters safety course before he would take me hunting. I learned how to and how not to handle a firearm.

Then...he took me out two days in a row to hunt fowl. We sat in a duck blind with one of his buddies on two cold eastern Kansas morning.

On the second day, a group of bird are coming in. He coached me through as they came in closer. I got my first kill.

When the dog brought me the bird...it was unlike the other birds. A few days later, he tells me that my bird was an Arctic Squaw...and was thousands of miles south of it's usual migration pattern.

I felt horrible. First, I couldn't get out of my mind this bird I had killed. Second...the fact that it had made it that far off it's migratory pattern just to die at my hands...just kept spinning through my head.

He asks me if I want it stuffed...something he was against. I said no...I didn't want to see that bird ever again. He took me aside and said, "Listen, I'm proud of you for trying this. For going through the firearms course. For going out and shooting with me. But you don't ever have to do this again if you don't want to."

And I didn't.

But I tried it. It wasn't for me. But I can never pass judgement on hunters. Not after knowing this guy.

He ate everything he killed. He would donate extra meat to homeless shelters. He was so about the meat not going to waste, that if he came along a deer that had just been killed by a car (it had to be fresh...for obvious reasons)...he'd get out and throw it in the back of his truck. We always had tons of venison summer sausage hanging around (really the best tasting summer sausage I've ever had). He taught me that hunters are conservationists. They LOVE the outdoors. It's not just about killing. It's about being out in nature...and the cold crisp mornings away from civilization. It was about providing food for yourself. It was about the human spirit.


And you know what was most important about this guy?


He was a BLUE DOG DEMOCRAT. He would've given up all his firearms before you could've gotten him to vote for a Republican.



You know what many of you are doing? You're alienating a whole group of people. I know quite a few hunters who are democrats and are really perplexed by the parties overall anti-hunter and anti-firearm stance.

In this case, as a party, we need to pick and choose our fights. And our stance on these issues is putting a lot of our old school Blue-Doggers on the fence. Of all the things we could compromise on...this should be at the top of the list. And it just might bring a whole lot of people to our side of the fence.

and those poor creatures don't get eaten. They just die. Not to say you shouldn't eat grain. You should and I do. You just need to keep in perspective that small animals die and illegal immigrants pick produce for very low wages so we can eat healthy food.

If you want foods that don't require much death or suffering, try the processed junk that poor people eat...but then you might die from obesity, diabetes, or heart attack.

"Lots" of animals don't die in the harvest. A very few do. Most animals are smart enough to run from a (VERY LOUD) combine. Combines don't intentionally sneak up on them or hide in trees until they happen by. The comparison is ridiculous.

And I have seen numerous small animals mixed in dead with the corn and soybeans at the end of the day. Mice, voles, snakes, frogs, toads, the occassional gopher. Mainly it's just insects though, particularly grasshoppers.

Now, if you want to see a bloodbath, go out baling hay. The hay baler, for those who haven't seen one, has two rows of triangular razor blades, shaped like great white shark teeth, mounted on long bars that move from side to side. I've seen these things shred pheasants, the neighbor's free-roaming guinea fowl, and baby rabbits galore. The rabbits are the worse, because by the time first-crop alfalfa is ready to cut, they are tending to nests filled with young ones. The mother rabbits may run off, but the babies instinctively freeze when the tractor comes along. When I was a little kid, I'd try to save baby rabbits that had their backs scalped of all their skin by the baler blades, but of course they never lived more than a day or two.

nt

Got a link?

after dining on my hostas and lilies all summer.
Come help yourself to our local herd of deer.

to the fringe's over dramatic irrational rants I see on DU.

I'm sure of it. Since I bought my scooter this summer, I've had two near misses, once threading the needle between a doe and her fawn. I have seen hundreds--and that's not an exaggeration--of deer standing in and on the side of the road this fall.

When I do eventually hit a deer, my bike will stop and I'll hurtle into oncoming traffic at 35 mph, with entirely predictable results. Hey, those are the breaks. If I wanted the safety, luxury, and emissions of a car I'd get a third and fourth job. Since I don't want any of those things, I must accept a shortened life span, just as these Virginia deer must.

Seriously, when a scooter rider decides to take his chances with the 18-wheelers rather than the deer, as I had to do on Sunday, I think there's plenty enough of them.

The http://www.dgif.state.va.us/hunting/va_game_wildlife/deer_management_program.html">VDGIF, however, isn't in complete agreement with me:

Deer herds at the time of European settlement (c. 1600) were plentiful and widespread in Virginia. Over-exploitation during the next 300 years nearly extirpated deer by 1900. Since the 1940s, Virginia's deer herd has demonstrated exponential growth as a result of protective game laws, deer stocking, and habitat restoration. Through the 1980s, the deer management objectives were to restore and to increase populations throughout the state.

Today, deer management objectives have changed to control and stabilize populations over much of Virginia. The change in deer management direction from establishing and allowing deer herd expansion to controlling population growth has been based on cultural carrying capacity - the maximum number of deer that can coexist compatibly with humans. Liberalized hunting regulations enacted over the past decade appear to have stabilized herd growth in most areas. Current computer reconstruction models provide a prehunt population estimate of 850,000-1,000,000 deer in Virginia. Although frequently cited as overpopulated by the press, most of Virginia's deer herds are managed through regulated hunting at moderate to low population densities, in fair to good physical condition, and below the biological carrying capacity of the habitat.

If there are other ways besides cars, scooters and hunters to cull the deer population, Virginia doesn't seem to know it. Virginia is, however, heavily committed to trying to stabilize the population, which overall it considers "moderate to low" at about one deer per every eight Virginians. However, since one of those million Virginians live in Northern Virginia, and another of those millions are packed into the Richmond-Hampton area, where there are far fewer deer, I'd say there's plenty more deer per scooter rider around these parts!

I like deer and hold no animosity toward them. As I said, it's a virtual given that sooner or later I'm going to tangle with one, and it's going to harm me seriously if not kill me, and I accept that.

I'm just trying to remind all of you that sooner or later, the deer are going to get a point on the board for themselves. That's a fact of life for me and I'm cool with it. I don't hunt, and I'm not particularly partial to venison, but I do hope that if I buy it thanks to one, someone will eat the deer I take with me. And while you're at it, sprinkle some of my ashes over a quarter bag and smoke it to go with your venison jerky.

I come from a family of hunters. I also come from a family of farmers and several family members including my father, who worked for the Pennsylvania State Game Commission.

To farmers - deer are nothing more than rats, pests, nuisance and serious crop damagers. Farmers can sustain major losses if a deer gets into their field of corn and other crops and destroys it not just by eating it but by running through it and trampling the crops. Most farmers plant a one foot border around their crops where the plants are squeezed together as tightly as possible - this is pretty much a crop loss to farmers in hopes that it keeps deer out of the middle of the crops.

Most farmers gladly welcome hunters to help thin out the population of deer on their property. Oh, and hunting is not a sport of the upper middle class. Many hunters can get connections to farmers looking for help clearing out the deer and throughout most states are state lands set away for hunting.

Oh, and nothing sucks but to have deer overpopulation thru the wintertime where the deer will struggle and possible starve due to competition of food.

I do not hunt; hell I do not own a gun. But I look forward to venison every year. It's a much healthier red meat (see deer are not like cows standing around eating and getting fat). But I believe that hunting should be enforced and limits set to not clear too much deer population or remove breeding or young animals.

Anyone who has a problem with this can kiss my ass!