I'm generally against the Death Penalty...

but hope to keep it reserved for people like that couple involved in the 'Baby Grace' case.

These people are not worthy of spit!

/sorry. just my 2 cents.

far better for them to fester in a cell for decades thinking of what they did, anyhow. Death is too easy for them.

But to look in eyes of that little girl and think about what was going through her mind as those beasts beat her with leather belts before holding her head under water then slinging her across the room by her hair. It really brings out the what I refer to as 'the libertarian streak' in me.

Think of the freedom they will miss, the life of cement block walls looking out at the sunlight for forty years with no chance of getting out. Let that be their special hell.

I can't attribute much humanity to either of these two. However, human they are and it is not up to me or anyone else to decide whether death is appropriate or not.

:thumbsup:

:applause:

and some actually look forward toward crossing that threshold between life and death. I say lock 'em up and throw away the fucking key and don't give 'em an easy way out

Not about them, no matter how beneath contempt they are.

I'd pull the handle, inject the serum, or open the gas on these assholes. Better yet, I'd like to subject them to the same kind of death she had to bear. When it comes to children, all utopian ideas are off the table.

And to walk a path of death along with them.

approve of. You see yourself in them; that's what scares you.

are you talking about? That's an asinine assessment.

...whether they are in a prison cell, or making a speech on C-span.

My mind, my life, my conscience!

who abuse children don't fare very well in prison.

But it's hard to be vehement about it with scumbags like that.

then you're not really against the death penalty.

Sid

:thumbsup:

I could google - but just give a link or something.

She's a cute white girl who lived a tragically short life with horrible parents. I'm sure the media will be all over this case.

They will ignore the other 100 or so w/ very similar situations and the same birthdate... different race, different country, different gender, not cute.............



I'm thinkin' that none of the story will be put in context (past experience tells me this).

I'm thinkin' that this sad sick story will dominate the news cycle for weeks or more (Natalies certainly back).

Sadly I think that it will be long time, if ever, before humans loose the instinct to identify more closely with those who look like themselves. Though it is more likely that the demographic tides will change before this happens but the same sentiment will remain.

i don't get that at all from the pics on the site with the news story.

My idea of a tweeker is skinny though I'm no expert. Wasn't there something I heard not too long back about a new 'Meth' like drug taken Texas by storm?

I admit I could certainly be wrong - but..... 'look at their eyes'.

It's rather distinctive.

does that make you any better than those who would look at the photo of a little "ethnic" child and say "oh well"?

What context exactly are you looking for concerning the bashing of a tiny little girl's head across a room, into a wall and onto a tile floor? Her death is not more disgusting because she was white and cute. Her death is what it is because it's hardly imaginable how it could have been MORE disgusting.

I hope her "mother" NEVER........ NEVER.......... NEVER....... gets out of jail.

I hope the boyfriend is strung up by his balls while they drive hot toothpicks under his fingernails, and I hope that some big sonuvabitch brutalizes him in the exact same way he did that little girl - 20 years from now, after he's had time to grow up and think about it.

Find the pic's of the 'ethnic' child you speak of w/ the same birthdate. Show me the MSM outrage, the coverage....

I will then look into his/her face and make a determination.



Why should I allow the MSM to do it to me? Give me a pic of another child w/ the same birthdate (statistically it will balance out).


I will not allow the corporate media to hogtie my brain.

Let me say that again.

Shame on you for allowing your legitimate hatred of imbalanced coverage infect your humanity.

Who exactly has hogtied your heart? This little girl was a baby. If you care about her color, that is your problem, your disease, and your infection, and you will have to deal with it.

The disease of society must also be dealt with, but that issue takes nothing away from the tragedy of this little girls death.

in an immoral war that is destroying 100's of thousannds of Americans lives (wives, kids, other relatives). The Economy which was looking better in '29 than it is now. Oh, and the whole 'civil liberties issue' I know it's not that important, and no one talks much about it. The homeless in this country. The fact that 8% +/- don't know where their next meal is coming from. The fact that our schools have been given a 'no child left behind' recipe book for failure at the enrichment of yet another Bush.....................


I'm sorry, we were talking about a very tragic case involving a pretty white girl.......... what did I miss?

Tell me what I should be outraged about.

It illustrates in perfect relief the point made.

then there's something seriously wrong with your soul.

You do realize that compassion is not a finite resource which has to be carefully partioned out, yes? Well, for most caring people it's not, anyway. For political ideologues who care more about issues than human life, maybe it is.

Guess what! A hell of a lot of ppl are not like me. Some sell their children into slavery, some into prostitution, some sell them for 'wages' at the local rug-maker, others to the local shoe-maker. Many parents are so overwhelmed they just 'sell them'.

OK, Yeah, I live in the USA, in fact I live in one of the 10 most wealthy regions in the USA (my profile has not changed in 5 years).... guess what.... I do not consider my 'white race MSM - propaganda - distraction reality to be the "REAL WORLD".


PS - Please do not allow me alone w/ Grace's 'parents'

There is no coverage of many such cases. They happen with a certain amount of frequency, too.

But to be outraged at such people isn't very helpful. They are rare individuals who need to be locked up, but they will always be with us. Or, if there is anything we can do to prevent such things from happening, it goes deeper than just being outraged at an individual case.

How does that make it less terrible?

Look, I understand what you and alittlelark are saying and we basically agree. Yes, the media largely ignores when horrible things happen to non-white or non-American people and that's shameful. Yes, of course things like this happen daily and we'll never hear about it because the victims live in another country or are so marginalized here that their stories don't make the news. I think everyone on DU shares that sense of anger when victims are silenced. But I just don't think it's necessary to make pejorative statements about how this little girl was "white and cute" as a method of decrying the media's choice to focus on her case to the exclusion of other similar cases, because then it really comes across as minimizing what happened to that little girl rather than being outraged at media sensationalism. There's just a much more sympathetic, compassionate, and tactful way to express anger at the media.

"Sensationalized" or something along those lines. When you start in with the words like "white girl" then it leads people to feel that you would be satisfied if white and black girls got the same amount of coverage which then throws your argument about the lack of "Economy" and "Iraq" coverage out of whack.

just curious.

I'm going to bed now.

It illustrates in perfect relief the point I made as well s your moral weakness.

And, uh, what was your premise.... oh yeah, cute white girl w/ horrific parents. Why argue w/ me?

The media will do all of your arguing for you.... because they are ignoring the NEWS.

She was cute, but she is dead...... see the other 100 w/ her birthdate w/ the same story.

That's disgusting. :puke:

I feel sorry for you. You've somehow lost your ability to feel compassion.

Imagine if dad had taken the child away from her mom to Texas where he and his live in girlfriend tortured and murdered the child.

Do you think that the reporter would have considered it important to bring up mom's criminal past? Do you think the reporter might have found some space to include any meaningful reactions from her? Or do you think they would have relied upon the tearful quotes from the maternal grandmother?

My heartfelt condolences go out to the child's father.

How many do you think have been wrongfully executed? Do you know the DP does NOTHING to lower crime?

In 'Cut and dry' cases like this that involve children then I'm more inclined to agree with DP. If there is just a teeny bit of doubt then I'm against it. Though I must say that given a cool-down period then the 'BlueBear' side of me begins to prevail.

My own thoughts are really so complicated that I don't really know where I stand on the issue. I suppose that's why I say 'generally'.

In the last 20 years, courts found the cases of 200 people to be "cut and dry" enough for them to be sent to prison, and they were all released afgter DNA evidence exonerated them. Fortunately, those people were alive to exonerate. Executed people aren't so lucky.

There is no reason to support the DP other than revenge.

2 suspects being interrogated separately shortly after being arrested giving a very detailed and nearly identical account of what happened implicating both themselves and the other.

Even confessions can't make guilt 100% certain. Do you know about the West Memphis Three? I HIGHLY recommend the documentaries about that case. It will make you doubt the accuracy of our judicial system, I guarantee it. And when our judicial system is far from 100% accurate, we shouldn't have it kill people.

If you don't like these movies, I'll donate $20 to the charity of your choice.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117293/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0239894/

You should read articles like this
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/us/25jeffrey.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Or look up the correlation between states that use the DP and their crime rates. The correlation is that states that use the DP generally have a higher rate of crime.

Or look up the other countries that use the DP. We are not in good company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Death_Penalty_World_Map.png

There is no evidence that the death penalty stops anyone from committing murder. There is evidence that it may increase murder rates, by increasing the violence that is accepted in a society.

to work for the rest of their lives, at the most menial kind of tasks, in service to others somehow, no chance of parole ever, no diversions or entertainment of any kind.

Isn't that like "sort of" being against murder unless you disagree with the execution?

People say this all the time. "I'm generally against the DP" until they hear about some crime that hits too close to home for them. Like being for it if the murder involves a child, against it if the murder involved an elderly couple. I think if a person says they are for it in any case, then they are FOR it.

then they can live through their punishment.

I'm against the death penalty, even for people as fucking bad as these two.

throwing away the key is not a good idea. our system should be focued on REHABILITATION, punishment is a horrible thing to be handing out. a long time in jail, yes. forever? no.

They may be too far gone for rehab. Meth is the nastiest of the drugs.

I believe rehabilitation can work 80 or so % of the time, the rest just need to be kept out of the general population.

maybe the mentally disabled too? thats offensive in my opinion. no life is worth less than anyone else's.

It is a brain-killer... the body is affected to a much lesser degree. Those w/ 2-3 years of hard core meth use are only vaguely recognizable as 'human'.

Meth is the evilest of all drugs.


Some ppl just need to be removed from society and placed where they cannot hurt anyone.

Due to the fact that when I find bad eggs in the fridge it's straight to the garbage bin for me. ;)

I understand where you are coming from though, but I personally have never been in the position as say the biological father of this girl.

I easily see how it could be seen as a crime to let these people walk in the eyes of the victims family. True, many people are able to forgive and I have the utmost regards for people who do. I suspect that my agnostic beliefs play a role in my thought process on issue as these.

I read the affidavit at the link. These people murdered their little girl on purpose. They deliberately tortured her to death.

where you agree and disagree? your personal outrage? if not yours, then who's? and who gets to decide said line?

I think that there are many too many people in U.S. jails. Nonviolent offenders absolutely should be offered education and other services in an effort to rehabilitate. I don't think that most nonviolent offenders should be in jail at all.

I think that jails should be reserved mostly for violent offenders. Some people's crimes deserve life in prison. I don't decide about those - a jury decides.

the failings of our society greatly affected them, whoever they are. a ruined childhood with abusive parents, the destruction and destabilization of a life, etc. all of these can push people to do horrible things. i can understand your point on serial murders. yet, a husband who cold-blooded plans out to kill his wife is the same as a serial murderer? i dont believe so. and what about manslaughter charges? where should we put them? they have to be let out eventually. killing someone out of passion does not make you a serial murderer or mean you will murder again. what happens to you IN prison makes you a monster.

It's not perfect, but it's better than any other approach I can imagine. I am completely, totally, 100% against the death penalty. However, I do think that there are people who should not be allowed to live outside prison.

A young man in my area was just charged with five murders over the two years since he was last released from jail. While in prison he escaped once and seriously assaulted a guard in another escape attempt. He has a long, long history of violent crime. After serving less than half a 20 year sentence for armed robbery, he murdered at least five people since 2006. A convenience store owner, a young man standing outside his apartment, three other totally innocent people shot down by this monster. He shouldn't have been let free two years ago.

Yes, he had a horrible childhood. His father was just rearrested for similar crimes, plus sexual abuse of a minor. By all means, let's treat the murderer humanely, give him decent work to do while he spends the rest of his life behind bars. But let's not let him out to murder five more people.

And yes, the prison system in this country is horrific and should be completely overhauled. Like so many other things in this country, it's all wrong.

Having them spend the rest of their life in prison is the best thing for society. I don't support life in prison to make people suffer, I support it because there's too much risk that they will murder again.

I do, however, think that we should rehabilitated people with life sentences. Many times they can become positive role models for those who are not serving life sentences.

For these two, I would wholeheartedly embrace a torture penalty. Just for a couple of decades. How could that possibly NOT be a fitting punishment?

put them in jail for 40 years, detox them, rehabilitate them. anything else is just medieval and creates a horrible reflection on our culutre and society.

are fucking liars, almost always.

If you are responsible for less than 500,000 deaths - incarceration for life.


ABOVE 500,000 deaths.......I'm open to death penalty arguments.

And what exactly are you saying? That they really are gun-ho for DP and say they aren't or that they really despise DP and say they're for it?

I'm guessing the prior.

So you are so lucky to have never encountered an issue that gave you conflicting thoughts? You are lucky...I guess. I saw a recent study where conservatives tended to be able to more quickly make decisions on issues than liberals. I'm not saying your a conservative but I would guess you're in a minority.

The funny thing about 'knee jerk' reactions is that the 'thinking' brain is not involved.

I'm still pretty cool...






Are you saying I'm not cool?

"I'm still pretty cool..."?



j/k

:D

....if I saw a young 2 year old being tortured to Death, I'm not sure I could contain myself....but I hope so.

if I saw someone torturing anyone to death I would use deadly force in response. the DP and deadly force in defense of others are two different things.

except in cases of really bad criminals...

oh wait, that means I'm FOR the death penalty...

(/snark)

I'd much rather see these jackasses rot in a cell for the rest of their lives... Besides, I believe it's been shown that the death penalty does little to prevent crime.

harsh than the death penalty. Then they in some way are more brutal? Maybe? In some sort of way?

I see life in prison as being harsh, very harsh, but I don't see it as being barbaric like the death penalty.

death by general population.

I still don't believe in the death penalty, but you won't see me lighting any candles for these assholes.

And it doesn't seem to be currently a major issue in the current political realm. Can anyone tell me the positions of our Democratic candidates on this issue?

On edit: I think I already know Clinton's belief on this but I don't know about Obama and Edwards.

If anyone is trying to read into this message, then please stop... As far as I know, there is nothing deeper than a stupid comment here.

In Soviet Russia, message reads into you...

I hope those accused receive a free and fair trial and if convicted, receive imprisonment.

Justice is about ensuring the rights of everyone in society. In this case, justice's job is to remove these people from society because there is far too much of a risk that they will kill again. Society is no better off if we execute these people and it is in fact worse off spending the extra resources required to get a death sentence.

The death penalty is based on the attitude that justice's purpose is to make criminals suffer for their crimes and IMO that attitude is a bastardization of justice. This attitude leads us to do things like have a prison system that creates more criminals than it rehabilitates. These outcome of such a justice system makes society tangibly worse off, even though some members of that society feel better with this system because they rejoice in the suffering of criminals.

Not to mention the fact that we have an even more difficult time getting other nations to end their brutal execution practices when we still have the death penalty.

Most nations have abandoned it as they have public hangings &/or be-headings.

People that are condemned with the DP in most US States remain on Death Row for 12 to 20 years before the actual sentence is carried out. That seems cruel to me. What is the purpose of the DP?

There is no way that all DP sentenced can be 100% accurate in guilt. Is it alright to execute some innocent people in order to execute some guilty ones? Selective DP concepts are still pro DP notions.

We had a terrible one here in Missouri where a stepfather and his friendkidnapped, raped and then killed a nine year old girl.

Crimes that are that awful are mind boggling. What do you do with monsters like that?

But I think it is still cheaper to keep them incarcerated than to go with the death penalty.

No justice - no peace

or you actually don't support it and are naturally offended by a brutal crime.

but could get into the personal revenge thingie quite easily.

I really had no strong opposition to the death penalty for the reasons you cited. However, the day Ken Lay died of natural causes without serving his much deserved imprisonment, I thought, I am now against the death penalty. I want the people who commit these horrible crimes to rot in prison.