Michael Moore cut this scene from Sicko because no one would believe it

<http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/19529-michael-moore-cut-this-scene-from-sicko-because-no-one-would-believe-it>

Amazing Norway.

I like this quote from the "comments" section:

"It is usually labeled socialistic, liberal, elitist, European, unfair...these are all words that are laden with symbolism in the US, therefore used in the wrong context."

No shit.

*I* AM Symbolman! Cut that shit out!

Okay, at least tell me where I can get a larger version of your cool "Fascists" sign :)

Then go to www.symbolman.com to see my Hollywood award winning Symbol animation :)

P.S. I've agreed whole-heartedly with many of your posts I've seen so far...

...to 11" by 8 1/2" size for my work cubicle. It's a good thing I work at home, eh!

But I have to say I think giving a chainsaw murderer a chain saw in prison is maybe not such a good idea. Just my take. :-)

It's a very nice place and treats its people well, but she complains that the taxes are insanely high. The income taxes can hit around 40% even if you're not rich. May still sound fair, but then you pay up to a 25% sales tax on most things you buy, cutting the money you have to spend to less than half of what you earned -- not counting the various other taxes and their social security. Want to buy a car? Add around an extra 50% to the price for taxes. I drive a small gas-sipper, but there's no way I could afford it in Norway.

She also says people often take weekend trips to various EU countries in order to buy goods at a lower sales tax rate. That reminds me of Americans like my grandfather escaping the price gouging of the pharmaceutical companies by buying their drugs in Mexico.

Maybe that's why my friend lives in Germany.

USA - ridiculously low taxes (not to mention ridiculously low minimum wage as well) = shithouse services

AUSTRALIA/UK - higher taxes = better services

NORWAY/GERMANY/FRANCE - High taxes - very good services.

BTW if you lived in Norway you'd earn Norwegian wages - you could afford a car as easilly as my mate did as a student in Norway just 2 years ago.

In Iceland I pay incredibly high taxes by US standards. It amazes me when Americans whine about their "high" taxes... I gues it might be at least partially due to the fact that they feel like they get very little for it...

I pay almost 40% in income tax and 24,5% in sales tax. But it is totally worth it, IMO, based on what I get - I am still amazed that after my son was born, we walked out of the hospital with no charge and nothing to fill out or even sign. Then a doctor came to our home twice and a midwife (educated baby care professional) came to our home twice a week for the first month (and was there for up to a couple of hours) and then once a week for a couple of months after that. Both parents got several months of paternity/maternity leave - all paid by the government. Prescription medication is subsidised by the government. University is extremely low-cost - almost free. And the list goes on and on. (In Norway things are even better - they also have dental care included, which we do not. But then they have tons of oil money... ;)) Iceland is one of the most expensive places in the world to live. Yet it is regularly in the top 3 (last year number one - always well above the US) in listings of nations with the highest standards of living, and there are no starving homeless and really almost no "poor" people by US standards.

It is simply a matter of different priorities and attitudes. People genuinely care that everyone is cared for and appreciate the safety net that exists if something should go wrong. I never hear people griping and moaning that "their" tax money is being used to help someone else - I think people actually appreciate that idea, rather (which would be unthinkable among the BrainRushed right-wing masses in the States). And they understand that their nation and they as individuals are stronger if everyone in the nation is cared for. It is just an underlying societal given.

I get more than my money's worth, and after having lived in both the US and Scandinavia (Iceland and Denmark), then I say I am proud to pay high taxes so that I can live in a nation that cares for me very well - along with everyone else. It is well worth it.

between the attitudes and systems found in the US and in Scandinavia and some other Euro nations. Unfortunately we're sliding the wrong way.

As it stands; I pay 33% of my wage in income tax (I have a lower than median wage - yay working for unions) I pay 10% GST, two separate taxes on petrol (one levied on top of the other) stamp duty on any car I buy (or any home if I could ever save a deposit) capital gains tax if I had any investments that made any profit and a host of other compulsory funds like superannuation and third party personal injury insurance on my car.

I receive(d): An excellent public education from the age of 5 through to 18. A heavily subsidised university education (was free until early 90's when a deferred payment scheme was introduced meaning you pay nothing until you are earning a certain amount) Competent and trustworthy pollution/health/food etc bodies, free health care - anything from the flu to multiple bypass surgery, subsidised medicines which are free if you need to spend over a certain amount on medications in one year, ambulances, public electoral funding, child care, fire services and a host of other things - if I had kids of my own I'd be getting a heap more.

Only 20% (give or take) of US citizens own a passport - if more of them traveled the bullshit stories spun to them by politicians about the awful services in "socialised" nations wouldn't be so readily believed. Even here at DU, a place FAR more "socialist" than the US as a whole there are many people who refuse to believe this sort of country is possible or have repeated easily disproved propaganda...it's a little scary.

in that situation to acquire monetary wealth? Less cars really mean healthier people and a healthier environment. They really seem to have their priorities in order. I would gladly give the majority of what I earn back to the community that takes care of me, the community that takes care of each other.

And I am only going to add this bit.

We can all have what Norway has. All it takes is people like you and me organizing. While the government may think our organization will be "violent radicalization" or "homegrown terrorism", we will be a "rights movement" instead that has the support of people all over America. We can demand dignity and respect in America and come up with an agenda that will lead us to a sustainable future.

I don't care who gets elected in 2008. I am still going to fight for this dream because this is my American Dream.

it's not called a "tax" and you get lower quality service? Between premiums, deductibles, and many other expenses, I'd be hard pressed to find people here that don't spend as much or more of their income on cost of living stuff, but it's not called a tax.

Also, in our country we somehow believe it is more patriotic to pass along the ecological and societal damages, along with all of that cost, to our progeny.

You make it sound as if Norwegians are all taxed to the point of living in cardboard boxes, which is something I've yet to notice.

Go USA! Woo!

I would easily say that's a fair deal for all the services Norway provides. Compare to America where only the poor and middle classes pay taxes, and those taxes are spent killing the children of those taxpayers

K&R

Very close to English. Some funny pronuciations. Easier than German...actually Scandinavian languages are right in between German and English in many ways.

Not as gramatically simple as Spanish but there are so many cognates and it's case free (save with pronouns as is English.) Definitive and indefinitive object ("The" and "a/an") and plurals work a little funny as well, but it's not too tricky.

Saved all the crazy difficult shit for Icelandic... ;)
Since the isolation of that language (before which there was basically one Scandinavian language), all the other Scandinavian languages have simplified greatly. Not Icelandic - grammatical rules and changes that have basically no context in English...

Have rented the DVD and will buy it when I get around to it, just to support MM.

Liberal as I am, I was gobsmacked by these scenes from a truly egalitarian society. The Norwegians actually put into practice the ideals outlined in the US Constitution instead of merely paying lip service, as subsequent generations have done in this nation.

but reading the comments here makes me proud to be part Norwegian. :)

And I, as someone trapped behind the Iron Curtain of Bushie TV Lies, salute you and your nation.

It is Free Nations like your that gives the vast majority of humanity, who live under slavery like BushPutinism or much much worse, hope.

You Norweigans give me hope, as do all the other Free Peoples of the world.

One note of caution, though: NEVER FORGET that your own mostrous BushPutinist forces are somewhere within your country. They are undoubtedly heartened by the victory of totalitarianism in Amerika and will likely stop at nothing to turn Norway from freedom to their dark side.

Beware, sir. You may think you have your totalitarian monsters cornered by your egalitarian ways, your Constitution, and your people who apparently still value Liberty and other Enlightenment Principles.

But Totalitarian Monsters NEVER die. They are always with us, dreaming their Bushie dreams, preparing to leech off and destroy the lives of innocent millions.

Eternal vigiliance. If you hadn't noticed, democracy is in retreat all over the world and the New Totalitarianism being fashioned by Bush, Putin and the Chinese, may well now be the world's dominant governmental form.

I am not suggesting you get hysterical about it or anything, but just know, as Thomas Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

Well, that was never so true in 1939 or now, when totalitarian evil that is BushPtuinism is spreading so rapdily across the globe, crushing resistance, will, and Liberty all at once.

Look at Sarcoczy in France. He is taking the first steps (which few ever recognize) to turning France into a BushPutinist State.

Eternal vigilance, my Norweigan friend. Know that all of us in the Third World of Petty Dictatorships (like Amerika, though we still have one foot in each world, for this brief moment) are rooting for you, for your success at preserving your Liberty in the face of Norwiegan BushPutinists is the success of all of humanity.

I come from the mighty Thorsons

It's beautiful! I wish I could go. :)



And check out Jens Stoltenberg. He's definitely no Chimp!

Its the America I dream of every day.

Only colder with a funny accent.

'Cause goodness how it's pouring down today!

That aside, Norway is, for the first time in 6 years, no longer the best place to live in in the world. Iceland jumped up to first place on the UN list, and demoted Norway to second place. Norway is not paradise, there are stupid politicians, lots of taxes, lots of rules, and quarrels about the allocation of funds. People do have horrible hospital experiences, schools are underfunded, infrastructure is incorrectly built and badly maintained. But for the most part, it's just exceptions to the rule. For every tunnel that is poorly constructed, there are many that are feats of engineering that connect a country with extremely widespread and difficult topography. For every school that hasn't been renovated, we have a near 100% literacy rate, and free university tuition. For every patient that has to spend their hospital stay in the corridor of their ward because there are no rooms available, there are thousands of patients who are not forced into bankruptcy because they got sick.

No country will ever be perfect, and there will never be enough money to do everything (at least not without driving inflation skyhigh.) But compared to other countries, Norway (and the rest of Scandinavia) is as close as it gets.

next to me.

Ég heita Óláfr.

Icelandic is actually a lot closer to the Old Norse spoken 700 years ago than modern Norwegian. We do have problems understanding Icelandic - we understand about as much as we do German. My reaction comes from having had a Nordic linguistics exam on Tuesday, where part of the curriculum was Old Norse. While Norwegian, Swedish and Danish are a lot closer to each other - mutually intelligible, in fact, Icelandig, while belonging to the same language family, is the cousin to the three sibling Scandinavian languages.

why I am trying to learn it. Scandinavian, particulary 'Viking Era' history, is a hobby of mine.

The Vikings were truly globetrotters - going as far as Istanbul to Newfoundland. Fascinating.

Komdu sæll og blessaður Ólafur, hvað segirðu gott? :)

I will try to answer but I am not sure I have the right of it, but it sounds like you are wishing me a happy greeting and asking how I am?

Komdu sæll! Allt fínt.

Sorry if I have the gender application wrong. I am VERY new to it, as in, I just started actually doing the lessons this week. :)

Óláfr

People will always try to point to anecdotes to avoid change. The stories of waitlists, lines, bad experiences, etc. are greatly exaggerated to propagandistic proportions. Shit happens everywhere. I really hope that people will not buy into the anecdotal propaganda and look instead at the facts and stats. This system works, though it is of course not perfect.

Sorry you are now number two for your sake, but now we are getting some more attention... ;) And I liked your leaky tunnel! :)

:toast: Love that place!

I'd bet it was rather effective, actually.

That's quite a surprising way to make someone think about what they had done.

Hell he is probably electable.

*that* is what sanity looks like.

go to prison, and greatly improve my quality of life! :hi:

Bring it on! :sarcasm:

I'm getting a down jacket and moving to Norway. Maybe I should buy a chainsaw, too.

I called "dibs" on Madagascar awhile back.

If we get another Repub in the White House,
I shall formally declare humanity a lost cause
and devote my remaining days to teaching
lemurs how to make fire and simple stone tools.

I wondered where the UNICEF guy went. Seems like the right place for him.

It did amaze me that chainsaw murderer worked w/ a chainsaw and it was OK. :crazy:

But I do like that they live in group homes. Not too big to be overwhelming. You don't lose track of people that way. They don't feel dehumanized.

I like that they will pay for your tropical vacation. B-)

I think I wanna be Norwegian. :-)

A place where prison is where people learn how to become one of society again. A place where cops are mediators and observers. A place where money isn't the rule of law. A place... screw it. I must be dreaming.

Well at least I know a place like Norway actually exists. I feel better about planet earth now. And as for America? I feel just the same. Not good.

I think the loveliness of their prisons and cops is being a tad overstated but they're certainly a huge improvement on the situation in the US.

Most first world nations have maternity leave, sick leave, holiday pay, protection from unfair dimissal, national health, education and would never dream of abominations against justice like "three strikes" and rendition.

Americans just don't seem to know about these places, or if they do they believe the imperial spin.

Since I was a child I always had a strong feeling that this society had serious flaws. Right on down to the general interactions with the public.

I just saw a documentary on a bike race in Belgium, a few days ago. I'm a lover of bikes and biking. And these 80 year old men on bikes at least their age, were going to ride 200 km. over dirt roads. Their attitudes. The amazing foods on the roadsides of the race. And the fact that the communities fight off the encroaching asphalt, in order to keep their beautiful dirt roads. These all were things I value, and things that would hardly be on the radar screen in this country.

Oh well.

K&R

But one thing I have been told about Norway is that they do NOT have a presumption of innocence in a criminal trial. Not good!

"presumption of innocence in Norway"

Trials are public, but juries are only used in criminal cases heard by the court of appeals. Charges are stated clearly and formally, and defendants enjoy a presumption of innocence. Defendants have the right to be present, to have counsel (at public expense if needed), to confront and question witnesses, to present evidence and witnesses, and to appeal.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78831.htm

Saying we "coddle criminals", howling for the death penalty etc etc. The problem here is not the sentences, it's the hopelessly hole-ridden court system, incompetent prosecutors, and corrupt police.

There's a campaign going on here to close the loopholes so violent criminals who are sentenced to 30 years DO stay in prison for 30 years. I favor that campaign because it does not call for the death penalty -- not even life in prison -- not even bigger sentences. Just close the loopholes.

A supportive society works. You do not need vengeance and punitiveness to be safe, that is what actually fuels the craziness that creates the crime.

This is incredible. I wish Michael Moore would do a film on just how the rest of the world really lives.

Of course no one here would believe you can actually lower crime by treating people humanely. It probably would be his one flop.

Seems that living in Norway is not all a bed of roses.

We do not pay 50% of our income in taxes. We pay a graduated income tax - we pay nothing on the first NOK40,000 (divide by 5 to get dollar), 14.4% if our income is in a certain bracket, then 28%, and 36% and 50%. 36% is what most Norwegians pay - it's what I pay, and I have a good salary. Only those with unusually good income pay 50% on the income earned above the 36% bracket. I don't have a car, so I don't have to pay car taxes. Gas is expensive in Norway, because of taxes. Food isn't, at least not if you compare it by how long you have to work to earn the money to buy food rather than just compare the money used to buy it. Minimum wage is about $20 an hour, for example, so most people can live off of a minimum wage, while buying a house is nigh impossible for anyone who's single, because there's been an American-type house market for the past 10 years. To be fair, tho', most cities have a topography that doesn't allow unlimited expansion, so the supply of houses is smaller than the demand. That drives the prices up.

For our taxes, tho', we get health care, schools, university tuition, child benefits, unemployment benefits, social services, pensions. Our employers don't have to pay health insurance, but we have the right to 5 weeks paid leave every year, 1 year maternity leave at 80% salary (if we worked 6 of the 10 months before birth.) We have a 40-hour work week, and we don't live in fear of our employers.
That's worth a lot.

Taxes are the big harry monster for many uneducated Americans. Although we see ourselves as generous, the very fact that we do not want to share our wealth for the greater good shows that at heart we are really very selfish and self-centered as a nation. The conspicuous consumption of so many Americans, even those who can not really afford it, is truly a disease.

We complain a lot, over things most people would consider insignificant. And we're awfully smug and pleased with ourselves (as you may have noticed ;)) Yet we also hold the "Law of Jante" near and dear - 'You should not think you are anybody', i.e., you should not think you're more important than anybody else. But the belief that we need to help everybody, and that we must be fair, is still rooted in the Norwegian soul. And I am eternally thankful for that.

Some very valid points, IMO.
On the subject of generosity, Americans do tend to view themselves as generous, and some that I have spoken with actually believe that the US keeps the world running...

In terms of raw dollars, the US gives more foreign aid than any other nation. Many people point to this as evidence that the US is the most "generous" nation on the planet. Yet as a percentage of income, the US is nearly last in foreign aid among industrialized nations. So, basically (and in very general terms), Americans are stingy, there are just a lot of them... :P

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

I often hear outrageous claims from Americans about the UK and Australian systems (tax/education/healthcare/voting) and wonder why they never think to check when they hear this stuff spouted. Particularly if those people are plugged into the 'net. It took me less than a minute to find the Norwegian tax scales on a Norwegian govt site.

For our taxes, tho', we get health care, schools, university tuition, child benefits, unemployment benefits, social services, pensions. Our employers don't have to pay health insurance, but we have the right to 5 weeks paid leave every year, 1 year maternity leave at 80% salary (if we worked 6 of the 10 months before birth.) We have a 40-hour work week, and we don't live in fear of our employers.
That's worth a lot.

With you there, some things are just a tad more important to me than the ability to afford to buy and run a Hummer

many "knowledgeable" US residents that I would be paying much less taxes. In reality that is not so. When we add everything up including taxes (income and property) Soc Sec, health insurance with deductibles, medications we find out that we are paying more here and getting less for it. In England employees typically start off with 4 or more weeks paid vacation and 6 weeks is quite common. The vast majority of health issues (apart from elective surgery) are dealt with very efficiently and in many areas Drs are encourage to help patients to do the best for themselves to stay healthy - which is very different from (and much less expensive) than what makes the most money in this country which is treating symptoms. A "for profit" healthcare system is just that - the plan which creates the greatest profit. To quote Bill Maher - "these is no money in healthy people and dead people - the profit comes from those in between"

i know where im fleeing to now if i gotta ;)

About 25 years ago, I turned down an opportunity to get a job in Norway, for what seemed like good reasons at the time. (Actually, I was just intimidated by the thought.)

I could kick myself now. I'm half Norwegian and can even speak a bit of the language, but only children, not grandchildren, of Norwegian emigres can qualify for an ancestry visa. :-(

I have a similar problem in Germany, by the way. There grandchildren of emigres can get ancestry visas. Unfortunately, it was my great-grandparents who emigrated from Germany.

were mainly people with a conservative bent and the liberals all stayed in the "old country"?

In the late 19th century, Scandinavia underwent an evangelical revival which was not sanctioned by the state churches. Their culture was like that of the Southern Baptists: no drinking, no dancing, no card playing.

By and large, the Scandinavian immigrants, like immigrants from much of Europe, were rural people, not very sophisticated, attracted by the promise of free land.

Affluent people stayed in the Old Country.

My German great-grandparents were unusual in that they were well-educated city people, but my great-grandfather wanted to come to America to have adventures.

I've heard plenty of stories of very elderly Scandinavian immigrants going back to the Old Country and being shocked at the way people lived. It even happened in Minneapolis.

During the height of the 1960s counter-culture, one of the Strib's columnists told of overhearing two elderly women with Scandinavian accents tut-tutting over the appearance of a hippie couple. "They'd never allow that in Norway," one of them said.

I had just come back from a trip that included Norway, and I knew that they very definitely DID allow hippies in Norway.

rehabilitation, no two-party system, no insurance/big drug lobbyists adding to their coffers...

Send the Bush Admin over there. Their heads would explode and we'd be done with them.

I mean, there's all these countries that work miraculously well with liberal policies. Where is the country that has worked so well with conservative policies? I'll give you the entire history of the entire world to find an example.

yeah, I love telling conservatives about these conservative countries.

But not so much success stories.

Saudi and Iran are successful because of their oil, but not really the trendy vacation spot. they got quite the laundry list of social problems.

No taxes, no government regulation, and everyone has a gun.

Paradise.

it has been transformed into a oasis of freedom and commerce.

Pinochet's Chile was quite popular (with the sharks who got to feed on the bodies of leftists thrown alive into the sea from helicopters anyway)

Diem's South Vietnam was a great place for torture and graft, had those evil commies not stuffed everything up the little guy might have really had something there

And then there's the US, where no-one goes hungry, no-one is working poor, no-one lacks healthcare, there is no crime and people make love regardless of gender in the streets

I have conservatives more and more each day.

I love my country, but I almost want to move now. Sheesh.

let alone this. He does tend to paint other places with a very rosy brush while the US is the land of pain and suffering.

I'm sure they'd be willing to confirm or deny the accuracy of this piece.

Maybe look into state provided services in France? Or did you just decide it wasn't true because the use of a nations wealth for the benefit of all is too alien?

It is very easy to verify that France does indeed provide the benefits discussed in that scene and more. You could start with looking up the National Union of Family Associations.

They tend to be a little bit darker than the folks shown in the movie. I doubt those folks get the same treatment.

A few other points to ponder before you head to the SAS counter at the airport:

* Oslo is among the most expensive cities in the world.

* They tax beer to within an inch of its life. People even cross into Sweden and bootleg theirs back with them.

* I had a colleague years ago whose wife is Norwegian (Norwegian-American, I guess). He told me, "Every recipe starts with 'Boil'..." And since they're not as diverse as, say, Sweden, it'd be hard to find any other kind of food.

Again, I ask you, I beg you. What is to prevent someplace with a more equable climate from duplicating this success? (other than the fact we got statehood back in '59 :evilgrin: )

When you think you become far more rational, and henceforth far more human.

as Scandanavian countries on the social services/equity dealie but it's MUCH better than the US.

We have fairly high taxes on all alcohol - and ciggies - if you smoke you wanna stay where you are until you get lung cancer and then come over ;) but beer is still very cheap. Expensive beer would probably be one of the few things that'd cause a riot here.

Sydney + Melbourne are both expensive (though I think less so than Oslo) but other cities and regional centres are relatively cheap

You wont get a wider variety of food/cuisines anywhere on earth and lots of fresh produce and a far healthier system of meat regulation

We have nice weather

We just elected the ALP after 11 years of Coward, to this tragic Makhnovshchina they still pretty much suck but they are to the left of any US party and at least we can hope for improvement now.

Having said all that I'm really hoping to be able to live in the US in a few years - anyone wanna do a swap?

I have a very high regard for Australia

why their wealthy people aren't all crying the blues about "having to support everyone else" with their tax money like they do here. I mean, I hear this type of whining from so many people, even lower-middle class people. Is it just that Americans are inherently more selfish than the rest of the world, or what is it? :shrug:

system. It's like they think that they will spend their money and have to keep paying for everything like they already do...?

money "off-shore"....They still have to pay taxes, but like our ueber-rich here in the US, they figure out ways (or atleast many try) of how to avoid paying. I've met a few of these Scandinavians - they live here in the US....But all in all, they realize that the system in Norway certainly works better than here.

You very rarely hear people here complaining about their tax money going to help others. It just is not part of the culture. The common welfare is very important, and people realize that they get great benefit from the system as well. But I think that it really comes down to a deep-rooted sense of family and of wishing everyone well. I do not know how to really explain it, the attitude here is just completely different. I cannot imagine a Scandinavian ranting that part of "his" tax money went to pay for an operation on a dying kid... It sounds incredibly selfish and childish to even type that sentence.

Funny how people in the US pay relatively very low taxes to most of the rest of the Western world, and yet seem to bitch about taxes more than anyone else... I wonder if that will ever change...?

.

to say the least.

A successful country that has unarmed cops and 30 pound Poodles in the K-9 Corps has got to be considered as having a pretty good handle on things.

It's also amazing to think that a little more than a thousand years ago these same people were the "Scourge from the North" that pillaged and terrorized Europe for a few hundred years.

And yet, Norway is NOT becoming Armageddon. No terrorist bombings, no rampant crime in the streets...

What gives here?

In Iceland there is a saying, "In the US, they only have two political parties - the right wing party, and the further right wing party."

... wow. :wow:

Presume many of them speak/write English --- ?

Wonderful people --- wonderful society ---

A Garden of Eden in comparison to what we have going on here ---

violence creates violence --- period!

doobage?

The video didn't mention that Norwegian citizens are given a stipend of that oil wealth, which helps pay for all those wonderful things. It would never happen here. Never, when Exxon Mobil et al can make such obscene profits.


BTW, the murder rate is low, but the suicide rate is almost equal to the U.S.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

edited for suicide

What's the correlation of suicide with seasons?

the suicide rate in Shetland (and rates of substance abuse) is astronomical. It is basically dark there almost all day in the dead of winter and that can really screw you around.

That's just beyond my wildest imaginations.

They have created the world I want over here.

as is all the nordic countries for that matter. they understand a prison is supposed to actually rehabilitate you, not make you a worse human like the prison capital of the world here does.

Moore must have omitted something from that clip. No country could be that utopian.

I'm a socialist democrat and all- I agree that we should all be so lucky as to live in Norway. But I'm too skeptical to believe the place is that perfect.

Oh...wait...I guess that's not a downside either.

Try really hard to be cynical. There's got to be something wrong with that country.

But they would say "suprisingly mild".

You can get the government to give you a car. It seems like an easily abused system. But then again, they are just giving the things away. It's hard to abuse a system where you can just take what you want. "You don't have to bother to trick us sir, we'll just give you the car." One that gets better mileage than American cars, mind you.

:shrug:

maybe if we ask really nice we can petition them to change it to something from Dimmu Borgir, Royksopp, or Apoptygma Berzerk...

It strays from the health care theme into general socialism.

Sadly, it will be a long time before something like that could be implemented here. We're too stubborn, too stupid and under the thumb of corporations.

What is it about us Americans who love revenge and expect it from our judicial system. Take the Jenna, LA, situation. The White judicial system was out for revenge on the Blacks for what they did charging the one as an adult. But, there it is, a different world view from Norway where everyone is expected to be treat each other with respect and equality.

toward other means for ensuring their survival and promoting the common good. Unfortunately the ruling classes in this country have relied on mass slaughter and imperial expansion to increase their wealth since the founding. I wonder how long it will take the people here to realize that there is a better way, and that their leaders are not their friends, incapacitate them one way or another, and work together to create a decent society that best serves our common human needs.

(edit out stray period and to add a few words.)

Immigrants? People who weren't white or Norwegian at all? When a population is almost totally homogenous, it's a lot easier to think of a much more egalitarian policy and society. There's no "other". That's the challenge we have in this country.

one? Or a totally homogeneous one of some other sort? I hope not. If so genocide of one sort or another would be step one toward that goal.

But I think it's easier for some other people to think that way.

collective welfare. That's just human nature.

sw

:rolleyes:

I'm wondering if they have eastern european or arab immigrants and, if they do, if there is a feeling of discontent with their presence. Would the Norwegians continue to have a deep sense of fairness if their population was more heterogeneous?

The US likes to think of itself as the worlds most multicultural nation. It's not. Other countries with "blended" populations have far better social systems than the US.

It's erroneous to assume all white people are homogeneous - folks from the Balkans could explain why.

There's also factual errors presumed in your post.

Immigrants as a percentage of the population of the US have never exceeded 10%. In the last 2 decades it has dropped to 5% or lower.

In that same period immigration has accounted for more than half of Norway's population growth (wow they've managed a rapid change from reasonably homogeneous to large scale immigration and still don't have the problems you guys do and you've had a lot longer to get used to it)and immigrants currently account for over 8% of the Norwegian population.

In Oslo 18% of the population are immigrants from non Western nations.

The issue in the US is not race it is CLASS. Class is intertwined with race in the USA but it is essentially a problem of HUGE wealth disparity between classes, nations with a good social compact ALWAYS have a much narrower income gap - it is not coincidence

It's not because they're communies
It's not because they're "all white"
It's not because they have more resources

It is because privatization is not an obsessive ideology.
It is because public assets are not flogged to the lowest bidder.
It is because basic rights are provided not sold
It is because people don't view taxes as an evil burden

A post on the fly is always going to have errors.

It's not fair to compare Norway to the U.S. There are less people in Norway than there are in NYC. The country is also way smaller geographically than the U.S. Much less regionalism- the culture among the people is much more homogenous.

Sometimes people forget that the United States is FUCKING HUMONGOUS!!!

And don't think there isn't resentment towards immigrants in northern europe. When I was visiting Denmark, that's all anyone would talk to me about--- and they were talking about citizens of their own country! Everytime I asked a Dane about the country, they would say something to the effect of "Everything here is great- except for those fucking Greenlanders!"

France has done pretty well with the millions of Spanish, Portuguese, Armenian, Southeast Asian, colonial African, and North African immigrants they've had over the last century or so.

:thumbsup:

is that there are so few people there. I just couldn't see their happy take on the penal system happening in major metropolitan cities. Yet, it's a wonderful model to strive towards.

The prisoners take a ferry to the mainland to go to work. It's really a weekend retreat, kind of a pastoral work-furlough program as opposed to a prison as we think of one. But the prisoners do have to serve out the time of their sentences, whatever they are. Moore doesn't mention what happens to those people who get sentenced up to the maximum of 21 years. There isn't time in a lifetime to serve that kind of sentence on weekends.

Another thin he doesn't mention is what happens to uncooperative prisoners who run away or refuse to work, or who may become violent. There must be other prisons of a different nature to handle those people. Unfortunately, all he shows us is an interview with a couple of "inmates" who said they wouldn't think of running away.

7,300 total crimes.
http://www.ssb.no/en/yearbook/tab/tab-155.html

Maine - 1,300,000

33,000 property crimes, 25,000 thefts
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/mecrime.htm

You have to treat people equally and humanely for them to peacefully co-exist.

the US would be better off if more Americans traveled the world exploring how other nations actually live. We can chant it all we want, but America is so not "number 1". It fell short of that about two hundred years ago.

Travel is key to understanding.
I think that a lot of people in the US would even be surprised that people in other nations do not tend to even really consider a comparative hierarchy of nations... That is, why even need to claim that we are number one? In other words - "we are better than you - ALL of you!". It is so much propaganda BS. People in most other nations do not wear flag pins, force children to pray to a cloth in the mornings, and try to convince others they are "better" or condescend to entire nations. In my experience, that is almost a wholly American phenomena. And I would argue that it gets in the way of sensible change and improvement as well as annoying a hell of a lot of people around the world. To those that loudly proclaim, "USA is #1", I would argue that they should stop talking about it and just make it so - and then forget about it and enjoy their lives.

An amurikan,
very fortunate to be able to read D.U.
from a Canadian Home.

I saw a documentary here (In Germany) about this island a while before SICKO came out. My wife, who is German was also astounded, but not surprised. I hope this is included on the DVD.

It boggles my American mind, having grown up in the 'prison-planet' mentality between Texas and California (3-strikes anyone...?). So to see this... well... it baffles my mind and opens my eyes simultaneously.

...I was thinking that in the U.S. we did have a similar criminal rehabilitation system here where hard criminals mixed everyday with normal law abiding citizens....it was called ENRON.

I think most large corporations in America harbor and tap into the criminal culture mind-set placing these elements into top positions of power and authority to pillage and plunder and even murder American consumers and the corporation's own workforce with impunity, as long as these actions make a profit and meet corporate goals and objectives. The same holds true in our corrupt government system as witnessed by some nearly seven years under BushCo.

Michael Moore's next documentary project really needs to be an exposé on the "Hypocrisy in Amerika" done in a tasteful and entertaining but existential way as only academy award winning Michael Moore is able to do.