Venezuela election UPDATE!

The voters wait patiently

Have just returned from a two-hour mini tour, from 10am to 12am, of the voting stations in the local area. In most of the stations there are no queues, but in two of them the queues were quite large. Outside the Escuela Francisco Pementel in the barrio of Quinta Crespo, Calle Santa Teresa, the queue was 250 metres long stretching around the corner into another street on the corner of Dolores. I was told that in this area the electoral roll is 10, 000 whilst in those without queues the roll is as low as 2,000.

In another station at the Instituto Nacional de Nutricion in the Calle San Juan about 80 peple were waiting patiently in the almost midday sun to go and cast their vote.
All so far in this area is peaceful and there have been appeals on TV from even the opposition for a referendum without violence.

The BBC is predicting a close result with it being too close to call. When you try to send a comment about the BBC reporting of the events in Venezuela, they reserve the right not to print comments which they consider to be unfair and inaccurate. Yet their reporting has been biased in the extreme. They reported the opposition march on Thursday as having hundreds of thousands whilst the official opposition spokesman put the number at 160,000. The Chavista march on the Friday was reported by the BBC as having tens of thousands when all the evidence, even that of aerial photography, showas a massive crowd of 900,000 to a million.

Even worse when they select words like socialism from the Bolivarian project, they put the words in inverted comments as a way of denigrating the content. Their own correspondent here on BBC global in Spanish began his report by saying that both parties were neck and neck. A massive campaign against the BBC bias in reporting events here would be something for HoV to undertake.

We read the situation here diffrently. We still estimate that the vote will be nearer 60% to 40% in Chavez’s favour. From the queues I have seen it should be a good turnout. Hwever only the result will show who is correct.

I now move on to the Barrio 23 de enero area to try and get some more information from further away.
Darrall Cozens
Caracas
http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/02/the-voters-wait-patiently/

during an awards speech, his audience howled.

Thanks for the update!

getting into the bushite swing of things with Chavez.

There went another of my sacred cows. :(

that means about the bbc? That they really don't care for Democracies and they're as corportist as the next media outlet?

:(

like cnn did after Turner?

but then they now take ads from Chevron et al. No surprise.

Bushbots ("Have Your Say" is the program). And Karzai's recent hour was really horrific. I listen every day via shortwave and sometimes their reporting does leave out a few things....latest faux pas for me....how all the Iraqis are flooding back home, with no mention of how Syria and Jordan won't take anymore in and that for those that come in, there are around 4 million displaced (in and out of Iraq==well over 2 million outside of Iraq...)

Tony Blair started the ball rolling with the BBC--cuts and a big row over some reporting....

But their regular news tends to follow the government line.

A lot of institutions and people seem to be following this line against Chavez.

Chavez is helping the poor people in Venezuela AND Venezuela has OIL..Good Luck, Chavez!

Tensions high ahead of vote that would expand Chavez's powers

President Hugo Chavez would take on expanded powers and have a shot at being president for life under constitutional changes being considered Venezuelans Sunday in a vote that raised tensions in South America's top oil exporter.


An emboldened opposition and recent violent clashes involving protesters point to a potentially volatile dispute if the vote is close, as some pollsters predict.


Lines snaked outside many polling stations, and Information Minister Willian Lara said across the country there was "a massive turnout." Voters were awakened in Caracas by fireworks exploding in the pre-dawn sky and reveille blaring from speakers mounted on cruising trucks.

snip

About 100 electoral observers from 39 countries in Latin America, Europe and the United States were on hand, plus hundreds of Venezuelan observers, the electoral council said. Absent were the Organization of American States and the European Union, which have monitored past votes.

more

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071201.wchavezvote121/BNStory/International/home

and the National Lawyers Guild.

having "a shot at being president for life." unlike what I'm still hearing on the teevee. :eyes:

I support Chavez and many of his policies. He seems to be very popular and has done a lot for Venezuela. Most of the anti-Chavez propaganda is coming from Bush's corporate media and the capitalists in Venezuela.

However, removing term limits is a very bad idea.

-a socialist.

yet I don't hear the same level of concern, actually, I don't hear any concern expressed about those countries at all, why do you think that is? Do you feel it is a bad idea in those countries as well?

apples and oranges.

and, from what I read in the reforms proposed by Chavez, elections would be held, as they are in Canada, the UK, Australia where the people could vote out Chavez or whoever was in the Presidency. Again, why the alarm? I don't think it is the "term limits" at all that is the concern but using it is convenient, imo.

constitution of that country in a way that directly benefits himself.

that I'm referring to the referendum, which was initiated by Chavez.

The people will decide and I don't expect him to win this one. IF he wins it will be with a small majority.

Add.

1) as someone pointed out Canada, the UK and Australia, all have Parliamentary forms of gov't. Do you understand how that works, and why it's so different?

2) Chavez proposed legislation that directly benefits... Chavez.

From what I know, I like much of what Chavez has done, and much of what he's trying to do, and I certainly don't want the U.S. interfering anymore in any fucking way in S.A., but I'm with HRW on this one. And the bundling of so many issues onto one referendum, is another poor idea.

the PM is not limited by term limits, only by whether he/she continues to be the leader of the party elected to govern. The electorate can turf the party/PM via elections and if they choose, as has happened, to keep electing the same party/PM multiple times it has not created problems.

The issue raised by the poster I originally responded to was related to "term limits" and I pointed out countries that do not have term limits yet don't raise concern.

As to directly benefiting Chavez, that is only true IF the people of Venezuela continue to vote him in, not much different than that which happens in other countries.

Venezuela is not a parliamentary democracy but, then again, neither is the US who's Congress, I believe, does NOT have term limits and it's members can run over and over again and be successful as long as the voters want them to remain in place. That doesn't seem to be an overarching concern which, given the comments in this thread, is interesting in itself.

most certainly is. There are 535 members of Congress, and ONE president and as the last 7 years have demonstrated to the world, the President is waay more powerful than the collective members of the Congress. Yes, they're supposed to be co-equal, but in reality the potential to abuse the powers of the executive branch is significant. That's the difference. And Chavez is introducing legislation that has potential to benefit him.

I believe power does corrupt, and the longer someone wields it, and the greater power that person is invested with, the greater the odds that that power will be abused.

I don't care how much I loved a president, I would be very wary of him/her if he/she suggested doing away with term limits.

To be accurate, I would think the phrase should be "potential to benefit the President" because Chavez can be voted out and another President voted in.

I agree Congress is not fulfilling it's role as a co-equal branch of government but I fail to see where Congress' failure to fulfill it's role should be transferred to a fear of a change in Venezuela's constitution, as voted on by it's citizens if the reform referendum succeeds, in both cases the voters have the power to unseat those who abuse power as long as there are elections which, in both cases, elections remain in the respective Constitutions.

As we have seen in the US, term limits have NOT stopped the abuse of power because it has been orchestrated by those other than holding elected positions and merely rubber-stamped by those who WERE elected/selected to the office. Do you believe the abuses of power that have already occurred in the US would end if another republican were to be elected to the office of the President or do you believe those abuses would continue and more would be instituted?

I am neither a champion of Chavez nor a disparager of him and have not posted on either side of the larger issue but I have been fascinated by the inordinate, imo, importance Venezuela and Chavez have generated in the US when I cannot see any imminent danger from either the country, it's leader or the results of the referendum.

passionate detractor. RE Chavez and his benefitting: No, it's not the quite accurate to say *any* president could benefit. Sure any president could benefit, but he's the one most likely to in the immediate future. Sorry, it's self-serving as HRW pointed out. He could have put up the referendum without it and without the extra-constitutional powers it grants the executive branch; there are some very good things in the referendum. I have an inherent distrust of people in power, and I don't do hero worship- ever.

than the Politburo did. But, Chavez is a dictator! :shrug:

I think I can safely say that if Venezuela didn't have oil, this whole debate would not be occurring and the referendum would be merely a blip on page 18 of the MSM, if reported at all.

lol

:)

:rofl:

but the US government has removed rights with no approval from the people. Whether it's a parliamentary system or a presidential system, it is a representative government which more often than not alienates citizens particularly when the representatives are owned by special interests. Referenda are becoming more popular as citizen are demanding more direct democracies across the globe. Bush could not get away with his crap in Switzerland.

Chavez has been very democratic here - the people will decide. What's most troubling is the way in which a democratic process is being portrayed as a dictatorial system. Perhaps BBC and MSM US might discuss Pakistan a little more objectively. That election was a complete fraud; the judges who knew Mushie was violating the constitution were fired and both Bush and Brown have gone along with this crap - Mushi appointed his own judges, took off the military uniform and declared himself the legitimate elected president after the constitution was already violated andh he was supported by men who are attacking Chavez.

There is no better example of an inversion of reality.

Venezuela/Chavez. The reactions by the US government and others toward what has/is occurring in Pakistan versus a democratic referendum in Venezuela is VERY striking in it's, dare I say, hypocrisy.

Thanks for posting your points, they are key to any honest discussion on the issue of Venezuela, imo.

They are brazen liars.

Having the ability to stay in office as long as he can (I know, he has to be re-elected, but incumbents have a significant advantage). I don't like the idea of a politician so entrenched that he's near impossible to remove.

Also i should point out, the Government of Venezuela is different then the Government of Canada, UK and Australia.

Just my 2 & half cents.

UK, Australia AND Venezuela. Should Canada be upset the US HAS term limits simply because Canada does not? I don't think so.

None of the countries that have no term limits have NOT had a problem unseating those in power, it happens often because there are elections, encumbents are thrown out. I believe there are NO term limits for Congress yet encumbents are turfed as shown during the 2006 election, no term limits there doesn't seem to stop the voters from turfing those they want turfed.

halfway through his effort to implement the New Deal? That certainly would have been popular with the robber barons. Not so popular with the vast majority of Americans, though.

Yes power corrupts. The power of the economic elites in SA has had a century or two to pretty completely corrupt themselves. Maybe now is a good time for the poor majority to have a little power for a while.

as long as they have fair and square elections, I don't see the problem.

I agree with being vigilant but this whole "dictator" thing is just like the "yellow cake" thing.

It's bullshit. It tries to create alarm instead of trying to inform. That should be our first clue that we're being propagandized.

but the comparison to Blair or Thatcher is a poor one.

Presidential term limits are a very good thing. Would you really like to see the repeal of Presidential term limits here?

we could have gotten rid of our corrupt POTUS by now. :shrug:

They are going to keep updating.

Reforming Venezuela's Constitution (Speech by Ambassador of Venezuela to US, Nov 19)



Funny how the media forget to inform their readers of THAT.



Sure wish we had that recall option, don't you?

There's alot more to this that's very important like the Central Bank. But the MSM is treating it's viewer's like idiots as usual. You would think Americans would get tired of getting treated like little kids!

**President for life!!**

Sheesh.

the *President for death!*

why make it more complicated. Cui bono?

Please dont say the poor worker..

but the alternatives are not much better:

1) Having Chavez followed by a hack loyalist from the same party, which is likely, or

2) Have Chavez transfer power to a candidate of the upper class.

Or possibly both, in that order.

oil cartel there.

Eliminating term limits for prez.

President can handpick provincial leaders.

President can declare indefinite state of emergency.

Prohibits large land estates.

No outside moneys for political aims.

Creates new classes of communal property. Whatever that is.

Anti-imperialist principals.

President controls Central Bank.

Work day goes from 8 to 6 hours. Yippee.

Voting age 16.

Social security for the poor.

The institution of community councils, federally funded, to identify and handle local needs. Social security for workers in the private sector otherwise not covered -- informal workers. Universal education. Students and workers get to elect their university administrators.

If I close my eyes and think of allowing Bush these new abilities, I'd cringe. So I suppose the Venezuelans are really thinkiing this over carefully. And by Venezuelans, I mean the people who make up his supporters. Not the goons. :) I hope that doesn't come across too bigoted.

This is so frustrating. I just dearly hope THE PEOPLE get their needs met. Please!


edit- Hey, that's the second time today I've used the word frightened. I guess I'm scared?

Gee. I don't see it that way. I'm not sure where you stand on this. I am guessing you just posted this as a context.

.. and, by and large, that is the level of "discourse" regarding Chavez here.


Sorta like this.. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2387574&mesg_id=2389830

:hi:

K&R