Pope Benedict blames the "greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice" on Atheism....

from the AP, via the AtheistNetwork:



A.P. wrote:
Papal encyclical attacks atheism, lauds hope

By Philip PullellaFri Nov 30, 10:38 AM ET

Pope Benedict, in an encyclical released on Friday, said atheism was responsible for some of the "greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice" in history.

The 75-page "Spe Salvi," which takes its Latin title from a quote by St Paul (in hope we were saved), is an appeal to a pessimistic world to find strength in Christian hope.

In the second encyclical of his papacy, Benedict urges Christians to put their hope for the future in God and not in technology, wealth or political ideologies.

Atheism could be regarded by some as a "type of moralism," particularly in the 19th and 20th centuries, to protest against the injustices of the world and world history, he said.

Reciting arguments made by atheists, he said: "A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God. A God with responsibility for such a world would not be a just God, much less a good God."

History has proven wrong ideologies such as Marxism which say humans had to establish social justice because God did not exist, the Pope wrote.

"It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice," the Pope said. Such a concept was grounded in "intrinsic falsity."

Marxism, the Pope wrote, had left behind "a trail of appalling destruction" because it failed to realize that man could not be "merely the product of economic conditions."

ATHEISTS REACT

The encyclical is the highest form of papal writing and addresses all members of the Church. This document is written in a highly academic, professorial style in which the Pope quotes saints, philosophers and writers to make his point.

Atheism has been a hot topic recently thanks to best-selling books questioning the value of religion such as "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens.

The Pope seemed to be addressing the fresh interest in atheism in the developed world with phrases such as: "Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope." ....(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=21369

and then send the rapists on to the next children.

I blame it on you, Rat Boy.

Isn't it about time to show the world what you really are?

Yeah, isn't catholicism the root of all evil.

To follow such a man only because some old farts got together and lit a little fire is insane.

To follow a man whose previous job was to shuttle child molesters around the world is beyond insane.

?

But I suspect most Catholics don't buy into your limited definition of Catholicism.

You hardly know what my definition of Catholicism is. Maybe learn to focus more and project less.

Projecting what?

like all religions, Catholicism is a negative force on human history and we would be infinitely better off without it. Sometimes I think that the very best thing that could happen is if we invented time travel and went back and strangled Jesus at birth with his own umbilical cord.

:dem:

I mean, I know he was involved in some bad shit, but I thought the Crusades were a little before his time. :shrug:

What I meant was that both sides, Atheist and Religious have bloodied hands.

The Crusaders did.

In fact, the only declared atheistic country this world has ever seen was Albania under Enver Hoxha, and they were pretty harmless.

Stalin was a man with a huge ego with the intention of having people worship himself in place of Jesus. Atheism is NOT an ideology. It is just the lack of belief. The same goes with others that followed him - ei. Mao, Kim Sung Il and Kim Jong Il, etc.

Ultimately, this argument that militant atheism was the driving cause for communism is fallacious. While Christians and other religious groups certainly have been persecuted under communist regimes, it has been part of a general oppression of anyone that dared to oppose the regime in power. The Pope's reasoning is very flawed and it's a tired old defense for those unwilling to admit the violent history of religious conflict.

The religion was the Communist Party, much like the Republicans uber Alles today. Atheism was just a notion on paper. St. Basil's Cathedral would've been razed otherwise. Russian orthodox was practiced during the Soviet years anyhow.

Try again.

Romans? Jupiter, Apollo, Saturn... in short Polytheists, or religious.
Maoist China? Communist Party again. Cult in, cult out.
Egyptians? Ra... need I say more?

The church's history isn't exactly a position of authority on the subject. And Benedict is a throwback, which makes it even worse.

Shutup Pope-man. Like we care.

Of course, if the American Atheists published an otherwise identical screed against the Roman Catholic Church, you can bet the farm that the Vatican would start screaming and moaning about everyone hates the Church and why are Christians so persecuted? :eyes:

And that fatass Donohue. Remember, to the Catholic Church, America is just another country.

a Holy Ghost Enema
http://youtube.com/watch?v=k0FMZiEmM14

:silly:

Rec'd for the unintentionally humorous comments and dogma. Jesus would no more approve of the current state of Christianity than he did of the corruption of religion in his own time. Christ is barely a blip, an afterthought, in what currently passes for Christianity, though I wouldn't lay the blame at the Pope's feet alone.

Discussions about religion are always so entertaining.

Soviet Communism had as its hallmarks militant, extremist atheism, which outlawed even cultural expressions of religion, and punished those adamant about practicing the religion of their choice with anything from economic hardship, to exile in Siberia, to even torture and murder.

So you secular fundamentalists had better not tell me there was no such thing as the tyranny of atheism. You are just as much extremists as the religious fundies you so love to despise!!

Religion is dangerous because believers are not allowed to think. That's what religion is all about, stripping people of intelligence.

Atheism, on the other hand, is the power of thinking for one's self. Atheists are individuals, not worker bees. What one Atheist does cannot be applied to another.

How many times have you hear (especially on this board) someone say "Only fundies believe that" or "Not all think that way" or "He isn't a true ." The point here is that atheism, like religion, is just a way to view the world. There is nothing better or worse about it.

It's not an ideology. It's better.

Same with monotheism. Interesting how it sounds like...like...a religion!

Atheism is an ability to think.

I have the ability to think, but I am not an atheist. I present you with the evidence, create your conclusions.

your capacity for intelligent thought. That's what religion is. Thought not from within, but from without.

I'm sure Sir Thomas Moore, Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., Saint Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, Galileo, Sir Isaac Newton, Alfred Einstein, and many others would completely disagree with you on that one.

It is what it is.

are sitting there thinking you said something profound in that post. That's why I can't stop giggling to myself. "Thought from without." Oh, there I go again...

Here's a couple definitions of without from Dictionary.com:

4. at, on, or to the outside of; outside of: both within and without the house or the city.
5. beyond the compass, limits, range, or scope of (now used chiefly in opposition to within): whether within or without the law.

The next time you're inclined to make a fool of yourself, just let me know. Always happy to help.

to understand how simple is was to use 911 for so long in order to hold people in check.

I know plenty of highly intelligent people of faith, intelligence is not in question but common sense is, and common sense nine times out of ten falls to the way side in the face of fear and there in lies the problem.

Communism what it was at it's worst, it was the actions of a tyrant to control the people through fear and repression. Religious fundies want exactly the same only they go further and use God as the excuse.

I have yet to see any case where there was the "tyranny of atheism"causing anything whereas I have seen plenty of horrors committed by those who profess to be guided by a supreme being whether it is called God, Jesus, Mohammad or whatever.

SO TRUE

Howdy, Joe, long time no see.

Catholicism had as its hallmarks militant, extremist zealotry, which outlawed even cultural expressions of atheism, or other religions, and punished those adamant about practicing the religion of their choice with anything from economic hardship, to exile, to even torture and murder.

So you Catholic fundamentalists had better not tell me there was no such thing as the tyranny of Catholicism. You are just as much extremists as the atheist fundies you so love to despise!!

Of course, if his most Catholic majesty Louis hadn't revoked the Edict of Nantes, my ancestors never would have come here and I wouldn't exist.

Many people forget that the Catholic Church went under HUGE reform during the Second Vatican counsel. Just because the Catholic was tyrannical and murderous in the past does not mean it still is today.

And I got over it. Became the first person in my family to marry a Catholic in over 300 years.

Still, the Soviet Union is gone, wiped off the map by the people of Eastern Europe and Gorbachev. The Church is still extant. This thread has become some sort of strange pissing contest over who has caused more human suffering, the Catholic Church or atheism. I'd just like to point out that, while the Church was burning the relatives of my ancestors at the stake 300 years ago, a pope sat in Rome and applauded. Now a guy with the same job (who himself attended Vatican II, by the way), wants to blame everything bad on atheists, the same way his predecessor blamed the Huguenots and other Protestants in Europe at the time. Not terribly enlightened.

Spreading blame instead of understanding is not a very Catholic (or even christian) thing for the Pope to be doing right now.

They party was a religion on to itself.

you can BLAME anything on religion. That's cute. But see elsewhere in this thread for atheists stridently objecting to any breadth to the definition of religion.

abolished religion because they did not want divided loyalties. But everytime the athiest subject gets brought up, people have to say stupid shit like "Look at China and Russia". The crimes of stalin and others were not caused by athiesm, but by the fact that they were sick individuals. On the other hand, the crimes of the various churches (past and present) were not caused by religion, but by sick leaders who misintepretted their teachings for their own gains.

That's it, I'm going to find these proselytizing atheists who keep ramming facts down our throats and beat them till they're as ignorant as the rest of us.

That wasn't "militant atheism", it was the outlawing of religion as a means of making the State paramount. If people had religion/gods they might put them above the State, and there was no way the State could let that happen. Therefore it was necessary for religion/gods to be outlawed. The State had to be above everyone and everything.

Militant atheism my ass. Never mind that atheism is not a belief system, nor has anyone ever embarked on "inquisitions" to "cleanse" the world of believers. The USSR was a tyranny, yes, but not one of atheism. They sacrificed their victims to almighty Communism.

Do you care to respond to any of the comments in this subthread you started, or was it your intention to state something stupid and inflammatory and then run away...AGAIN?

:eyes:

His arguments are completely fallacious:

I see no fewer than 4 basic fallacies: Begging The Question, Bifurcation, Non Sequitur, and Strawman, at least .....

This former catholic is surprised Papa decided to attack Atheism now : Are their not more faithful apostates to get all holy with ?

Papa ? ..... I left 30 years ago, and never looked back ....

neither, but I bet if we had a list of the so-called religious atrocities in one column and the non-religious in another..the religious would win for the most stupid blood shed.

This pope sure knows how win new friends and influence people..what a turn off he is with his own house in sexual disarray..and attacking others for what his ilk does best.

The atrocities committed in the name of a belief in a supreme being, no matter the name, God, Jesus, Mohammad are legion in number. I have yet to see a list of atrocities committed by those who attribute their right to commit those atrocities on their non-belief of a supreme being.

This pope is doing what the bush cabal has/is doing, imo, creating a false bogeyman to keep the faithful in line.

The religious whackos are the ones who are bushit's base and they are the ones who believe in what exactly? They're easily led around by the nose is what I see.

bush and the pope just love suckers who are born every minute.

nazi.

Damn.

Denial is weird.

He did live during the time Nazi's and Soviet Union, so his opinion is probably slanted towards excessive anti-atheist sentiments.

When you're a leader of that magnitude, willful ignorance is inexcusable.

Same with BushCo and "Viet-what?"

:hi:

Yes, there is no excuse for ass-holery.

:)

his experiences there were even more personal than your post would maybe suggest.

I don't recall John Paul II making such inflammatory statements about atheists and he was involved in the resistance against the Nazis in Poland in WWII, after which he spent decades resisting the Communists while actually living under their rule.

Having past experience with tyrannical regimes does not give one a license to be an asshole.

Here we atheists are already feeling our oats because we have a couple of books on the best seller list a movie and a couple of main characters on TV who are open atheists (Bones and House, part of the Tuesday atheist lineup). And what does the Pope do? He goes and gives us something else to rally against. I believe a thank you is in store.

Thank you Pope Benedict for providing another example of how some wish to demonize us. Thank you for giving us another reason to gather together and get even more pissed. Thank you for giving us a reason to shout even louder.

Atheists. 15% of the population that votes. Thats more than any other significant minority group. And we are seeing numbers around 20% in the 18-35 age bracket. So go ahead. Piss us off some more.

He represents a paranoid institution that sees its already weak influence disappearing completely.

I'll never understand why people listen to his drivel

Whatever.

AND VIET NAM

By refusing to evolve in a changing world, they're condemning themselves to a slow extinction. Sure, they have more money than god (ill-gotten and otherwise), and will continue to be power in the world for awhile, but their refusal to change will eventually wipe them out. And this gay ex-catholic couldn't be happier.

Catholicism is alive and well, as far as I can tell. I wonder when we are ever going to hear about the bad sides of Protestantism, Judaism, etc?

Oh, but it's only fun bashing catholics.

It really heated up with anti-Irish sentiment back in the 19th century.

:mad:

not that of other religions. They, too, have taken their shots depending on the news item posted. I have seen criticism (bashing by your definition I assume) of the Baptists, those who follow Mohammad, etc, as well as those who declare themselves as atheists if the news item is related to such.

Do you agree with what the Pope has decreed/espoused wrt atheism?

You can hear about the bad side of Protestantism here on DU. Just look for posts about "evangelicals" and "fundamentalists." You may not know this, but all of these folks are Protestant, and many don't even consider Catholics Christian.

As for looking for the "bad side of Judaism," I do think this pope could give you an earful about that in private. I honestly don't think there's been any shortage of people out to publicize the "bad side of Judaism." Look for guys with boots and really short haircuts--I suspect they could tell you what you want to hear.

However, I'm amused that you would apparently be alright with my bashing the catholic church as long as I was bashing protestants and jews, as well. Very christian of you. Way to turn that other cheek. However, consider them bashed. All organized religion is an atrocity waiting to happen.

And catholicism may be alive, but I don't think it's doing well, at least not in this country, where they've never had such a bad image...deservedly so, I might add. And as long as they keep covering up their sins and fighting battles the rest of the world has long acknowledged as over, they'll keep on marching right off that cliff.

What can I get for you, Spoony? I'm fresh out of extra gays to throw under the bus, but if you're willing to wait about 20 minutes or so, I've got a lady considering an abortion dropping by for advice that you can harangue.

Maybe you should try reading threads that don't involve Holy Mother Church.

Including, apparently, der Popenfuehrer.

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

You heard me right, Ratzo, I'm one of those transuhumanists that "put my hope to the future" in technology. If you don't like that, fuck off.

It's a mark of maturity to be able to look at one's own self with a critical eye. Ratzo is demonstrating that Catholicism is not there yet. Didn't Jesus say something about removing the log from your own eye before going for the splinter in someone else's? Maybe after Catholicism comes to terms with the Crusades and the Inquisition and the persecution of Galileo as well as the recent scandals involving the buggaring of little boys, they can start talking about negative aspects of other world views.

It was called Vatican II. Look it up.

and that made all the stuff I mentioned just go away? Did that include the recent scandals involving pedophile priests? I thought that was more recent than Vatican II. Hey, Khruschev condemned Stalinism at the 20th Party Congress in 1956. Doesn't that count as well?

Oh yeah, before most of the parents of the parents of most people here were even born.

You obviously are not interested in serious discussion so I won't try it with you anymore.

Just saying "Marxism" does not cut it. I need detailed historical examples like, say, the crusades or the Spanish Inquisition.

Mao

It was a (failed) attempt to change China from an agrarian to an industrial society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_leap_forward

It's wikipedia, but it's also a decent introduction to what happened.

But then again, the Crusades didn't really have to do with Christianity. It was various medieval warlords seeking power and fortune, and they just used religion as propaganda to get the illiterates to sign up.

It's kind of like blaming the Iraq War on video games.

eom

He seems to be grasping for straws. "...was responsible for some..." Some. Anything can be cited as responsible for some...

He makes his base feel better, but at the expense of their roots, their understanding and watchfulness. Perhaps strategic, but usually foolish, and always an amoral move.

His professorial style won't fool his God, nor anyone of real consequence.

obviously not all priests, but the church most certainly covered up their crimes and hurt many children in ways that do not heal with a bandaid and then this asshole has the nerve to say atheists are the problem?

...not to mention The Inquisition or the totallllllllly corrupt priestly class in the French Rev, who were the first ones whose property was confiscated, and rightly so. The church is a racket, just like war.

edited for another "L"

I'm waiting for my comfy chair!!!

Oh, popey, you crack me up.

:rofl:

One could make the argument that the greatest of the "greatest forms of cruelty" would be burning in the fiery pits of hell for all eternity.

Now, which atheist was it that invented that one?

Sid

He even looks like the Emperor! :rofl:

and the Conquistadors and Puritans and Crusaders and the Chimpy fundies and the Catholic-Church-approved Hitler are all atheists. Right. What a sick and delusional monster. Maybe the Liberation Theology tendency will someday gain some influence in that sick and murderous organization, but I won't hold my breath.

make allegations about the "cruelty and violations of justice" perpetrated by atheists.

:puke:

I think religion - or at least mixing it with politics - has caused quite a lot of cruelty and violations of justice!!!

:evilgrin:

Oh wait, he uaed to be one.

Nice try Mr. Pointy hat.

sounds like an enema instrument of torture. But whether it's physical or a mental, to declare such a document a highly academic paper is to beg derision.

You DO NOT have to be an atheist to recognize that the worst atrocities of humankind against itself have been done by the faithful against the branded heretical. There are human monsters. As for everything else, well, shit happens as they used to say; sometimes there just are no explanations. But to depict Human frailty against Nature "picking" on humanity, human monsters picking on humanity as a requisite for hope? proof that humankind needs God? Get outta here...........................

NoFederales

...or a fucking liar. He's obviously not a Jew.

:grr:

What was that? A fucking tupperware party gone amuck?

What a fucking tool....:eyes: :puke:

Wow. Simply astonishing.

And it's a man who claims to worship and represent God's word. What a useless trophy for pure idolatry. A man who cannot handle his position at all. He is the reason why so many Americans have left the Catholic Church.

:nuke:

Jefferson was an American patriot who owned slaves. Pope Ratzinger was a Hitler Youth who wants gays and people who use condoms to prevent aids to burn in hell and believes that the poor should rejoice in their starvation, because it makes them like Christ.

Hmmm. I think Jefferson still wins this moral argument.

"Your Black".

I guess he's forgotten about:
Crusades
Inquisition
Conquistadors
Puritans
Catholic Church approved Nazis
Pedophiles

;)

:D

Name just one creative way of torturing, maiming, or killing a human that an atheist invented.

...And don't give me that Stalin bullshit. Stalinist Communism was as much a religious cult as any in history. Same with Mao, Kim Jong Il, etc.

Crucifixion? Try again. Romans were polytheists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

Or THIS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_Catholic_Church_sex_abuse_scandal

Or perhaps THIS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
You do remember the KINDER, KUCHE, KIRCHE bit, don't you?

Pot, meet kettle.