Just ran into the most obnoxious, homophobic, asshole I've ever met.

I was at our monthly meeting of the Ancient Aviators this morning. Just a bunch of old pilots who get together and reminisce.
Still several WWII guys among us.

This guy came over to a group of us who were chatting and said "I thought this was an EAA (Experimental Aircraft Association, folks who fly home-builts mainly) meeting. But it's Ancient Aviators?"

He looked to be about my age (mid 60s).
I'd never laid eyes on him before and it turned out he wasn't a member. Just at the airport on some other business.
"Yep, we're the Ancient Aviators. Sometimes we just use the initials. AA. But don't confuse us with the other AA. <chuckle>"

"What's the other AA?"
"Uh...Alcoholics Anonymous?"
"Oh...yeah. Ya know there's no such thing as alcoholism. They try to excuse it by saying it's a disease, but it's just an addiction, that's all."
"Unh hunh...whatever."
Jeez. Who the hell is this guy?

Then he went on.
"But you know what the very WORSE scourge on our culture and our society is? Homosexuality! It's NOT a condition. It's a CHOICE. Nobody is born homosexual!"
"Hold it! I disagree totally. It's not a choice at all. I think you're born that way. Most of us are born male or female, but some come out kind of in between. Everything I've read points to a different hormonal balance."

Now his voice rose and he was starting to get a little in my face.
"THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL!"
"Look, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. But I absolutely disagree with what you're saying."
"IT'S NOT AN 'OPINION'! I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG! I'M A NEUROLOGIST AND I KNOW!"

OK, that's it. I'd had enough.
"Back off."
"WHAT?"
"I said Back. Off. I don't know who you are or why you're obsessed about homosexuality, but this conversation is over."
"Hunh." And he turned and walked away.
If 'hunh' is a word, I guess he got the last one.
;-)

I'm 66 years old and that is as close to punching someone as I've come in 40 years.
whew
p.s. 5 will get you 10 he's a repug.

But I will quibble over one point - homosexuality is not some a state "in-between" male and female.

I, and my partner, are fully male. We just are attracted to other males.

What do you think about the hormone theory?
I read about it in a book called 'Brain Sex'.
Fascinating read.

pre-natal hormone exposure is a very likely explanation. But there's genealogical evidence, too.

In short, I have no idea.

He was having to translate down to freeper don't forget. :)

I would be interested to see if there is a neuro-chemical difference in gay and straight people, but mostly just out of curiosity. I've never really looked in to it because regardless of what today's science could tell us, people should be able to be who they are. People shouldn't need "well science says it's ok" to justify their existence or life.

Just some thoughts...

I should mention I don't even have any gay friends that I know of, just a functional sense of empathy, and some life experience that taught me lessons about how society treats people perceived as "different."

It's unfortunate some people have to have a gay daughter or something before they can look at them as people.

I've been a bit interested lately in the topic of "neuro-diversity." This is a phrase that has been used to describe me, (Diagnosed with attention deficit disorder) as well as homosexuals and seems to be used to describe people who are not exactly typical, but not abnormal either.

he doesn't need to be defended. I said it was a quibble.

Yes, those are all interesting issues, and we have precious little evidence to make a case one way or the other - it's mostly supposition.

By my thinking, the desire to reproduce is the most fundamental thing that drives evolution. So if a percentage of people don't have that desire, I suspect it's more deeply ingrained than just hormonal influences. That makes me think there has to be a genetic component. But.... we haven't found one yet.

But no matter what, I don't believe it's a flaw, I don't believe it's a deficiency - I believe there's a good reason for gay people to exist.

In a nutshell, 'Brain Sex' is about the physical/neurological differences between men's and women's brains. For me it answers the age old question 'Why can't a woman be (think) more like a man?'
;-)

Homosexuality is touched on tangentially in a few chapters.
I'm sure not a physiologist (right word?) and I got through biology with Ds, but the authors talk about 2 or 3 periods during a woman's pregnancy when the fetus is 'flooded' with hormones.

All fetuses begin as female. The ratio of testosterone vs estrogen, (or whatever) is what determines not only physical genitalia, but also (at least in part) the...I'm working on the phrasing...'mindset'?, or attitude?...feelings? sexual urges? toward the same and opposite sexes after birth.

I think they had a sort of scale from the ultra feminine, frou-frou Barbie Doll female on one end, to the uber macho, super-masculine man on the other. In between (which I guess is why I used that phrase) are the tomboy girl, the effeminate boy (not sure if that's an acceptable term either - maybe 'quiet, thoughtful, sensitive'?) and various permutations.

In fact, I think most of us fall somewhere in between the two extremes.

Anyway, I hope I haven't offended. It's been a very interesting discussion for me and I've learned something.
Thanks.

can't men be more like women?' Fewer wars, fewer crimes, and fewer prisons.

It's slanted toward the authors' preconceived notions. Many of their conclusions are not widely accepted, and their sources are cherry picked. It's pop science.

but I've known plenty of feminine boys who were straight and plenty of ultra-macho men who enjoyed the company of other men.

and a convenient excuse for my self-important self to have a post up near the top. hehe

I consider myself an atheist, but if there is a god, spinoza's or some other, observing the world "he/she/it" has created, suggests to me, God loves variety.

It wasn't my intent to equate being gay with a disorder, if I was at all unclear. I don't believe it's a flaw or deficiency. Maybe left-handedness would have been a better example of neuro-diversity for me to compare it with. Not better or worse, just different.

We're all a bunch of mutating mutant babies of mutant parents, with mutant ancestors, who themselves mutated from apes, so from a scientific perspective, it might be more surprising if we weren't so diverse? hehe

I'm gonna go quit thinking for the rest of the day now...Ah Fox, perfect...jk

-personman

I understand what you're saying.
Fox will give you brain cancer.
;-)

"We're all a bunch of mutating mutant babies of mutant parents, with mutant ancestors, who themselves mutated from apes . . ."

There's not one type, or two types, or four or 26 . . . there's 6 billion and counting!

Thank you for your post.

The urge to not reproduce is not limited to homosexuals; many heterosexuals have never felt the urge to reproduce. Conversely, the urge to reproduce is not absent among homosexuals; see the "gayby boom" in the gay communities with surrogates, adoptions and in vitro.

Human sexuality is very complex ... and at the same time, very simple: we are drawn to whom we are drawn. That's the simple part. Why is sometimes more complex.

Lesbian couples having babies by insemination.

I was speaking in the abstract. I've not known a gay man who felt the desire to fuck a woman for the sake of having a baby.

Yet, many gay people want children. But the desire to have one doesn't make a gay man attracted to women.

Most gays and lesbians are either fully male or fully female, but there are many people who really are in between, far more than most people realize. Many people are intersex and don't even realize it, a man could have ovaries, a woman could have undescended testicles and they would have no way of knowing unless a doctor tested them. A male having female chromosomes or vice versa is fairly common, but again most people have not been tested for having chromosomes of the opposite sex.

The truth is any one of us could be intersex and we would not even realize it. I took a class with a professor in college who wrote a book on this subject and is one of the nation's foremost experts on this issue so I have been well educated in this area, but before taking her class I had never thought about it. The truth is most people have not thought about this phenomenon, but I think if people were to be more educated on the issue we would have much more success in convincing people that being gay is not a choice.

What you say is true, most gay people are not intersex. But for the ones who are intersex the question is are they really gay, and what does it even mean to be gay? Is someone with both male and female chromosomes who loves another man gay or heterosexual, and what would it take to make them the opposite orientation? The whole issue of sexual orientation is much more complex than many people realize, and I think once people start realizing all the different biological factors at play it is difficult for people like the guy referred to in the OP to claim that homosexuality is a choice.

Sheesh. What a horses ass.

On a lighter note (and as an EAA member) Is Ancient Aviators just a local club? Are many of your members EAA'rs also? In the chapter i belong to, there are quite a few veteran pilots from WWII as well as Korea and Viet Nam. We have a former F-4 driver who was at Miramar the same time McCain was.

Our full name is Ancient Aviators of South Alabama.
One guy came up with the idea and it spread by word-of-mouth.
We meet at the Gulf shores airport where the manager has kindly turned the large lobby/reception area over to us on the second Tuesday morning of each month.

We have no dues, no officers, no board of directors, no bylaws.
It's perfect.
Sometimes we just take turns standing up and telling a flying tale and sometimes we have a speaker.

There were about 60 there this morning.
Lots of Navy guys because we're so close to Pensacola.
Today a retired admiral spoke about his years in anti-submarine warfare on P-2s and P-3s.

my neighbor thinks that homosexuals can be fixed, whatever the fuck that entails, he's a fundie who claims to be a democrat if thats possible

tell him about www.ngpa.org

It's great bunch of guys and gals that fly.

The NGPA is an organization of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender pilots and other aviation enthusiasts/ professionals from across the U.S. and around the world--promoting aviation safety and equal treatment.



Through education, outreach and special events, NGPA provides an affirming social and professional network for Gay and Lesbian members of the aviation community, from pilots and students, to flight attendants, mechanics, and air traffic controllers--all are welcome!

You're not too old to be an internet superstar!:party:
edit to add: See this post for gift ideas! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2402063

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

it's hard to imagine somebody who has that topic at the top of their mind at all times who isn't trying to sublimate some desire for dick.

usually the people who scream about it the most are angry at themselves because they suppress who they REALLY are. hey, if they couldnt be openly gay and accepted, why should anybody eh ? lol

They want tax cuts, after all.

I used to go to a doctor who sounded just like this guy, extremely homophobic and not at all ashamed of it.

My brother is a doctor (MD), but he is very intelligent and a hard-core liberal. However, he has told me horror stories about his classmates and other doctors, especially in regards to homosexuality. To his credit, my brother (single, too) was the first to introduce a section in his ethics class about the poor treatment of GLBT patients by doctors and how that needs to change. Many people then assumed he was gay and he got a lot of new gay friends and several new women friends. :)

usually , but not always, high income/wealth = registered republican

:shrug:

I have a story from Saturday I have to get off my chest because it is bothering me.

I was at home and got a call from the DJ at the bar I work for and he tells me one of the other bartenders' sister was just killed instantly in a car accident in Colorado. I throw on my clothes, call a cab, and rush to the bar. I move him and his friend off the Bourbon Street side of the bar to a quieter side. His friend is sitting beside him and I am knelt down on the other side with my hand on his knee as he is gasping for air through the tears. Along comes this dillweed asking; "may I take some time to suppose (:shrug:) something?" I explain this really isn't a good time. He then tries to press on (he is either a beggar, a Jesus "freak", or a dealer/looking to score). I tell him it really isn't a good time, to which he replies..."oh, must be a "fag thing"." I was so flabbergasted, I didn't say anything and just flipped him off. I wish I had walked up to him and said; "no, asshole. It isn't a "fag thing" it is a "dead relative" thing!" Moral of the story: People just plain hate gay people for being us! Fuck them, the horse they rode in on, and the little dog that followed!

a small span of time. Yep, you're most likely right, typical Repug view... Wonder what he thinks of alcoholic homosexuals??

Completely OT, but this AA thing you're in-- do you ever get to actually pilot old P-51's and Devastators and the like... or at least ride in them at all?

if so-- my jealousy has risen to heights heretofore unseen in humankind.

And a few others have their own aircraft, but nothing exotic.
Cessnas, etc.
I have another friend who rebuilt a Stearman PT-17


I've been up in it once
My only ride in a open cockpit biplane.
And the last time I went upside down in an airplane.
And I do mean THE LAST.
I'm too old for that shit any more.
;-)

I'm an astronaut. Now GTF out of here!

human sexuality? Unless homosexuality were a neuro disease how would he know anything more about it than anyone else?

I agree with him on alcoholism not being a disease. It is an addiction. Not that I'm not sympathetic, but in order to successfully overcome anything (disease, addiction, etc) you should be clear on what it is, and since AA doesn't try to cure it like you would a disease but through a bunch of religious hoo-doo put into 12 steps to make it sound scientific, it would seem that at least on some level, they realize that.

Secondly, you shouldn't have told him to back off. When he got in your face, you should have told him, "Look, I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm not attracted to you. I fully support homosexual rights, but I'm straight." (or if you're not, tell him you're seeing someone). This will of course cause confusion in him at which point you tell him, "What with all the trouble anti-gay conservatives are having getting caught having gay sex, I just naturally assumed you were trying to pick me up. You have to realize that you're putting out a very gay vibe - older, white conservative male, spewing anti-homosexual venom. How could I assume anything else?"

TlalocW

I shoulda said "You're a neurologist? Damn, you must not have paid much attention in med school. I thought the belief that homosexuality was a 'choice' went out with bloodletting."

And THEN punched him.
We were around the same age and I had 6" and 20-30 pounds on him.
I think I could have taken him.
;-)

I was really kinda shocked by what a visceral reaction I had. I'm not a violent person, not by any means. I'm actually more of a peace maker.

Having someone I knew make those comments would have more disappointed than angered me. Having a total stranger, who knows absolutely nothing about me say them just pissed me off.

on those going on about homosexuality, it just makes them sputter more though.

;-)

But you know he made up his mind that you're one and that's why you were "defending" it. :eyes:

Just because you're an aged pilot you're automatically straight?
Horse hockey.

It's hard for me to explain or even understand why I had such a visceral reaction. I guess I'm just bigoted about bigots.
:-)

Woah. Sounds like you had a run-in with someone trying to imitate Crazy Tom Cruise. Yikes. I'm sorry.

They're actually using them again, and to good benefit.

So tell me, how old were you when you chose to be attracted to women?

To get this reaction from the unflappable Trof, this guy must have really been a congenital asshole, an off-scale dildo, and - probably - a latent homosexual.

My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

Homosexual or straight?

Sorry to offend, but AA and alchoholism is a bunch of crap. People who are alchoholics just need to drink less. Or not at all. If they stopped drinking, then voila! cured!

Don´t get me wrong - drinking too much is a problem. But its not a disease, because there is no cure. Unless of course you follow the 12 steps and have a personal judeo-christian god remove your sins. As a person who was sentenced to rehab, I will personally vouch for the crap that goes on in AA. They are not interested in curing alchoholics - they are interested in creating protestants.

These are the original Twelve Steps as suggested by Alcoholics Anonymous.<8>

1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2.Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7.Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10.Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11.Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

This isn´t therapy, its religion. And its where your tax dollars go for treating every drug and alchohol convict that passes through the legal system in this country. Can you say Violation of the Seperation of Church and State? No you can´t, because AA added the words As We Understood Him to step 3 after much legal pressure. There you go, all fixed.

First off, there IS such a thing as "alcoholism", and people who have it do not need to "drink less". They need to stay away from alcohol, period, totally and completely.

If you've never seen physical addiction to alcohol, including withdrawls and DTs, you're lucky. It's ugly, and it can kill.

Those people don't need to just "moderate". They can't touch it. Most people who have been physically addicted to alcohol only need a tiny amount in their system for the addictive cycle- the physical, addictive cycle, complete with hellish withdrawls- to kick back in.

I also know- for a fact- that not only is there a physiological component to alcoholism, there's a genetic one as well. Genetic science- not AA- agrees with me on this. It may have to do with how the liver processes alcohol, it may have to do with a chemical in the brain called tetrahydroisoquinolone or "THIQ" for short.. my hunch is, there are a number of factors which come into play.

But it is NOT merely a matter of alcoholics just being unwilling to "drink less".

That said, I have problems with AA and the 12 steps, particularly in situations where people are forced to go. I know people for who the 12 steps have worked, AA saved their life. I also know people who got and stayed sober through secular alternatives -rational recovery, SOS, LSR- and I know people who've done it on their own. I also know "problem drinkers" who do drink less; but I don't categorize those people as "alcoholics", certainly not to the extent of having a physical dependence on the substance.

People looking to get sober need to know that one size doesn't fit all, and that there are alternatives- particularly secular ones and ones that aren't as dogmatic as AA can be. But it's my considered opinion that true alcoholics are not going to be able to "drink less"; if they really have it -disease, syndrome, genetics, physical addiction, whatever- they will need to abstain from alcohol or the problem won't improve, and in many cases it will kill them.

:D

Is he a born asshole? Or did he consciously choose to be an asshole?

Now, THERE'S a Zen koan for him.