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I agree with RFK JR on virtually everything he says, except ONE thing.

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 02:57 AM
Original message
I agree with RFK JR on virtually everything he says, except ONE thing.

RFK Jr is one of my heroes. He has done so much for the environment, he's enlightened us about the dangers of mercury in immunizations, he's an outspoken critic of the neocons and he speaks the truth to power in so many ways. I could go on and on. I wish he would run some day, or get appointed Attorney General.

But there's just one thing I don't get.

How/why is he endorsing Hillary?!?!?!?

(for story see link http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/11/29/robert-f-kennedy-jr-endorses-hillary-clinton/)

WTF? Something doesn't seem right here.

He really strikes me as someone who thinks everything through. I could see supporting her if she gets the nomination... but to endorse her over some of the others during the primaries is really raising my eyebrows.

He supports impeachment efforts. Hillary does not.

He's been very critical of the war. Hillary on the war? ...crickets...

He's outspoken against torture. Hillary recently had a questionable remark about torture.

The one thing that really makes me wonder is, that he's very outspoken about the undue influence that large corporations have on politics. Hillary to me is the one dem candidate who has the most ties to large corporations.

I don't see how this adds up to an RFK endorsement of Hillary?!?!

There's only one thing I can think of. I remember he said on his show one time that if Hillary had to give up her seat in the senate, he might run to fill it. Maybe he's just looking at that aspect. But that doesn't fit with my image of him either.

I'm hard pressed to think of another thing I disagree with RFK on, but this is kind of a biggie.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. And Edwards is the only Dem candidate that has an endorsement
of a major environmental group,Friends of the Earth! Why wouldn't Bobby be concerned with that?:shrug: :shrug: Naybe he does want his Dad"s Senate seat?
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. maybe hillary promised to endorse him if he runs to take her empty seat
nt
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. So he sold out his convictions for his own ambition?
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. no, I wouldn't put it that way
endorsing a candidate is not exactly selling out your convictions.

anyway I doubt his endorsement will have a significant effect on Hillary.
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. He doesn't run for the seat.
The Gov would appoint a replacement. Then that senator would run in the next election (2010) to complete the rest of term (2013).
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Kucinich4America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Bobby endorses Hillary for one reason.
He wants his daddy's senate seat, and she's in it.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's all I can figure
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 03:11 AM by sandnsea
Whatever his reason, he's done enough good that I can overlook this one thing. It isn't quite the same as endorsing McCain.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. They're both New Yorkers.
Sometimes its a matter of familiarity and personal relationships. That's my guess. Its a big reason why Oprah endorsed Obama.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Don"t insult NYers.Hillary is a carpetbagger! She is no New Yorker!
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 03:49 AM by saracat
:rofl: But then, so was Bobby but we "liked" him
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. Oh no! RFK Jr....Please say it isn't so!
:wow:
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ArkySue Donating Member (647 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
8. Answers
"How/why is he endorsing Hillary?!?!?!?"
"He really strikes me as someone who thinks everything through."

He is endorsing Hillary BECAUSE he thinks everything through. Do you think he endorsed her on a whim? He doesn't want to run for office. He could have done that at any time.

Amazing that anyone who endorses Hillary, no matter how revered, is automatically a sell-out, or confused, or crazy.
Maybe it's you that can't see past the bs about Hillary. You've bought all the RW garbage hook, line, and sinker.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I'm puzzled, too. And I don't buy rightwing garbage, thank you very much.
Hillary is a tool of global corporate predators and a war supporter. RFK, Jr., is the opposite of her on almost any issue we could name. He is a real leftist (majorityist), at least in so far as I can tell, from listening to his Ring of Fire broadcasts. So his endorsement is mystifying, and needs an explanation.

That he's running for Senate in NY is the best one I've heard yet. He'a also familiar with Diebold/ES&S election theft systems, and may figure she's going to "win," no matter how much support she loses. So--somewhat like Gore, perhaps--he is bowing to the inevitable, and wants to be in a position of influence with the emperor, and/or (as has been suggested here) has ambition to run for the Senate.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. i think you just about nailed it. one more possibility
is that there is a friendship/relationship type connection.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. There's another possibility
RFK jr might be right about Hillary, and you might be wrong.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. nah.
total BS.

not going to waste my time with that.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
12. he wants her seat in NY..eom
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
14. His opposition to Cape Wind has been staggeringly unhelpful
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
16. Perhaps because of her excellent record?
Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Trust for Historic Preservation 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Wilderness Coalition 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Children's Defense Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Organization for Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 91 percent in 2006.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 100 percent in 2005

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence 100 percent from 1988-2003 (Senate) or 1991-2003 (House).

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Public Health Association 80 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers 84 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 88 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of Government Employees 83 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Committee for an Effective Congress 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005.

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 80 percent of the Senators.

According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on social policy issues than 83 percent of the Senators.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 92 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Bread for the World 100 percent in 2003-2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Partnership for the Homeless 100 percent in 2003-2004.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=WNY99268

She was promoting universal coverage before it was cool. Furthermore she helped to create the SCHIP program. And most importantly she was dead on in the debate the other week where she said political will was the most important thing needed to push health care reform through and we know without a doubt she has that.

She has fougt unrelentingly for a woman's right to choose as well as women's rights both domestically and abroad

Create a Strategic Energy Fund - Hillary has proposed a Strategic Energy Fund that would inject $50 billion into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels. Hillary's proposal would give oil companies a choice: invest in renewable energy or pay into the fund. Hillary's proposal would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share for drilling on public lands. Instead of sending billions of dollars to the Middle East for their oil, Hillary's proposal will create a new clean energy industry in America and create tens of thousands of jobs here.

Champion a Market-Based "Cap and Trade" Approach - Hillary supports a market-based, cap and trade approach to reducing carbon emissions and fight global warming. This approach was used successfully to limit sulfur dioxide and reduce levels of acid rain in the 1990s. By capping the amount of emissions in the environment and allowing corporations to buy and sell permits, this approach offers corporations a flexible, cost-efficient method to do their share to reduce emissions and combat global warming. The program will reduce emissions, drive the development of clean technologies, and create a market for projects that store carbon dioxide.

20% Renewable Electricity Standard by 2020 - Hillary believes we need to shift our reliance on high carbon electricity sources to low-carbon electricity sources by investing in renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind. As President, she'll work to require power companies to obtain 20 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.

Make Federal Buildings Carbon Neutral - Hillary believes that the federal government should lead the way in reducing carbon emissions from buildings. Buildings account for 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and the federal government owns or leases more than 500,000. Hillary would require all federal buildings to steadily increase the use of green design principles, energy efficient technologies, and to generate energy on-site from solar and other renewable sources. By 2030, all new federal buildings and major renovations would be carbon neutral, helping to fight global warming and cutting the $5.6 billion that the federal government spends each year on heating, cooling and lighting.

Protecting Against Exposure to Toxic Chemicals - Hillary wants to make the products we use safer, especially for children. There are tens of thousands of chemicals used in the U.S. and hundreds of new chemicals introduced each year, but little health testing is conducted for many of them. Hillary would require chemical companies to prove that new chemicals are safe before they are put on the market, and would set more stringent exposure standards for kids. She would also create a "priority list" of existing chemicals and require testing to make sure they are safe. To improve our understanding of the links between chemicals and diseases like cancer, Hillary would create an "environmental health tracking network" that ties together information about pollution and chronic diseases.

Hillary's Record

In the White House, Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier, to expand early learning and child care, to increase funding for breast cancer research, and to help veterans suffering from Gulf War syndrome who had too often been ignored in the past. She helped launch a national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy and helped create the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, which moved children from foster care to adoption more quickly and the number of children who have moved out of foster care into adoption has increased dramatically.

She was instrumental in designing and championing the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which has provided millions of children with health insurance. She battled the big drug companies to force them to test their drugs for children and to make sure all kids get the immunizations they need through the Vaccines for Children Program. Immunization rates dramatically improved after the program launched.

Hillary has been a leading member of the Environment and Public Works Committee since she was elected to the Senate. Today, she chairs the Superfund and Environmental Health Subcommittee and in that capacity has promoted legislation to evaluate and protect against the impact of environmental pollutants on people's health and clean up toxic waste.

Global warming and Clean Air
Spoken out forcefully about the need to tackle global warming in hearings, speeches, rallies and on the Senate floor and co-sponsored "cap and trade" legislation.
Worked to reduce air pollution that causes asthma and other respiratory diseases by writing and helping to pass new laws to clean up exhaust from school buses, and other diesel-powered equipment.
Supported legislation to reduce pollution from power plants, including harmful emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, and carbon dioxide - emissions that contribute to poor air quality, smog, acid rain, global warming, and mercury contamination of fish.
Aggressively fought the Bush Administration's ill-advised attempts to weaken clean air laws.

Improving Water Quality and Protecting Drinking Water
Helped to overturn the Bush Administration's attempt to allow more arsenic in drinking water.
Cosponsored legislation to protect lakes, rivers and coastal waters by fighting the spread of destructive invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.
Helped ot pass new clean water laws, including measures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

Protecting Public Lands
Fought oil company efforts to pen the Artic Wildlife Refuge in Alask and Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters to drilling.
Cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act, which prohibits road construction and logging in unspoiled, roadless areas of the National Forest System, and voted for additional funding and manpower to combat forest fires in the west.

Reducing Dangerous Chemicals and Cleaning Up Hazardous Waste
Supported legislation to restore the "polluter pays" principle by reinstating a chemical company fee to fund cleanups of highly contaminated "Superfund" waste sites.
Cosponsored the "kids-Safe Chemical Act," which requires chemical companies to provide health and safety before putting new chemicals in consumer products.
Proposed legislation to create an environmental health tracking network to enable us to better understand the impact of environmental hazards on human health and well-being.

Tackling the Toxic Legacy of 9/11
Pushed for health care benefits for first responders, residents and others whose health has been impacted from breathing the toxic dust and smoke in New York City after 9/11.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/20/134810/677

Hillary Clinton co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom she had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 through the end of 1981. For much of that time she served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so. During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

Following the November 1978 election of her husband as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton became First Lady of Arkansas in January 1979, her title for a total of twelve years. Bill appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee the same year, where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.

Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992, where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system. One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place. She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.

And a bit of stuff from the White House years:

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage. She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare. She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.

The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome. Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage.<124> She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare.<125> She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.<43> The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome.<43> Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.<43> In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.<43> As First Lady, Clinton hosted numerous White House Conferences, including ones on Child Care (1997),<126> Early Childhood Development and Learning (1997),<127> and Children and Adolescents (2000),<128> and the first-ever White House Conferences on Teenagers (2000)<129> and Philanthropy (1999).<130>

Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

"...Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries..."

More:
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/israel/index.cfm
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/darfur


The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%
easures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

HILLARY'S EXPERIENCE ON THE WORLD STAGE:

Her historic speech at the UN Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing in 1995 not only galvanized women around the world, it helped spawn a movement that led to advances politically, legally, economically, and socially for women in many countries over the next decade. Among other initiatives, she spearheaded the Clinton Administration's efforts to combat the global crisis of human trafficking. She persuaded the First Ladies of the Americas to use their collective power to eradicate measles and improve girls' education throughout the western Hemisphere. And she is widely credited with helping women in Kuwait finally win the right to vote.

As First Lady and now as a two-term senator who represents the most ethnically diverse state in the nation and who sits on the Armed Services Committee, Hillary Clinton has become a fixture on international issues over the past 15 years. She has traveled to more than 80 countries, going from barrios to rural villages to meetings with heads of state. She has consulted with dozens of world leaders - Nelson Mandela, King Abdullah, Tony Blair among them -- on matters as diverse as America and NATO's roles in Kosovo, eradicating poverty in the Third World, and the plight of women living under the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Today, she is one of the most influential voices in the world on human rights, democracy, and the promotion of a "new internationalism" in foreign affairs that calls for a balanced use of military force, diplomacy, and social development to strengthen American interests and security globally.

While American First Ladies historically have made great (and often overlooked) contributions to our nation, Hillary Clinton's wide-ranging experience on international issues as First Lady is unprecedented. Indeed, she is the only First Lady to have delivered foreign policy addresses at major gatherings of the United Nations, the World Bank, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the World Economic Forum.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. nice job of copy/pasting. but you missed a few things
voted for the Iraq war.

voted for the Lieberman Iran resolution.

sat on the board of walmart

her husband was the president of the united states for 8 years, during which time the humongous subsidies to the oil companies continued and nothing was done to help the renewable energy industry.

is one of the largest recipients of campaign donations from health care and drug companies. wants to mandate health insurance like car insurance.

continuously turns her back on government whistleblowers who are trying to disclose significant corruption.

I could go on.... no copy/pasting here.

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Kucinich4America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Spam
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. ha ha ha!
You used both of these statements, "He really strikes me as someone who thinks everything through" and "he's enlightened us about the dangers of mercury in immunizations".

Looks like RFK Jr isn't immune to incongruity.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. what problem do you have with that? He was CORRECT about mercury in immunizations.
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 12:09 PM by garybeck
it's only the spin and lies that continue today, that make it seem like he was wrong. but if you look at the facts, you'll find that when mercury was taken out of the immunzations, autism rates started to decline. If you're trying to say he was wrong on this issue, I invite you to do a little more research and see what you find.

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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. If by "correct" you mean "incorrect," then you're right
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Yeah, I have done a little more research. Hence the laugh.
Coincidentally, Scientific American just ran a story about this.

Is There Really an Autism Epidemic?
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=is-there-really-an-autism-epidemic

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Maybe you should continue your research
I wouldn't believe everything I read in Scientific American. It doesn't take a genius to see the correlation.



Autism rates:

USA - 1980’s: 1-2 per 10,000 children
Late 1990’s: 1 in 500 (2 per 1000)
2000: 1 in 250 (4 per 1000)
2004: 1 in 166 (6 per 1000)
2006: 1 in 175 (5.5 per 1000)


Exposure to mercury

AGE SHOTS HG CONTENT

BIRTH Hep B 12.5mcg

8lb infant (3.6kg)– EPA Hg limit: 0.36mcg = 35 times over
4lb infant (1.8kg) – EPA Hg limit: 0.18mcg = 70 times over


2 MONTHS Hep B 12.5mcg
HIb 25.0mcg
DTaP 25.0mcg
(subtotal for visit):
62.5mcg
Avg. weight: 10lbs/4.5kg EPA limit: 0.45mcg = 138 times over


4 MONTHS HIb 25.0mcg
DTaP 25.0 mcg
(subtotal for visit): 50.0 mcg
Avg. weight: 14lbs/6.5kg EPA limit: 0.65mcg = 72 times over

TOTAL Hg EXPOSURE IN FIRST YEAR: 212.5mcg !!

Thanks to RFK and the freedom of information act, we know for a fact that the drug companies had a secret meeting when the evidence started coming out and we know that they discussed putting out propaganda to convince people that there is no correlation. I'm sure Scientific American would be one of the places they would try to put their propaganda.

I think you've fallen for it, hook line and sinker.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. You're contradicting your own posts
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 05:25 PM by progressoid
"if you look at the facts, you'll find that when mercury was taken out of the immunzations, autism rates started to decline."

But then you post this:

USA - 1980’s: 1-2 per 10,000 children
Late 1990’s: 1 in 500 (2 per 1000)
2000: 1 in 250 (4 per 1000)
2004: 1 in 166 (6 per 1000)
2006: 1 in 175 (5.5 per 1000)

Lets ignore the fact that the CDC says the latest # is more like 1 in 150 not 1 in 175. If Mercury was removed from vaccines in 2001, why did the rate of autism continue to rise for five more years? Considering most children are vaccinated at 1 yr old, there should have been a decline by 2003 not 2006.

A more likely explanation is that the changes in what constitutes autism and the prevalence of diagnosis has reached it's saturation point. Not unlike the recent increase og ADD and ADHD in children.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Actually there is strong evidence that autism is down since thimerosal has been removed.
open your mind

dig deeper

here is a 5 minute interview which lays it out very objectively:

http://solarbus.org/realnews/audio/thimerosal.mp3

peace
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Why did you post that clip?
Just about 2:30 into the interview he says that the rates have actually become steady @ 1 in 150 and that "we are just better now at recognizing and diagnosing it." Gee, that sounds kinda like what I posted earlier.

He also disagrees with RFK Jr. About half way through Kirby even says "I don't think the science is there yet"; referring to the connection to mercury.

I don't discount the possibility that there could be a connection between mercury and autism. The problem is RFK's methodology is flawed. His conclusions are based more on conspiracy and conjecture (maybe even fear) than sound statistical analysis or a reliable scientific method.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. You need to listen to it again. And turn your ears on this time.
He is *MOCKING* those who say that just our detection methods are better. He is disagreeing with that idea. Listen to the next sentence... he says that it's a pretty bad indictment of modern medicine if we are saying that 10 years ago we were that bad at diagnosing. And he goes on to explain that it is not that difficult to diagnose autism.

Furthermore, to characterize him as flatly disagreeing with RFK about mercury causing autism is not correct at all. Listen to the whole interview. He gives a lot of evidence that shows a link. He is right to say he's not 100% sure. But that is not the same thing as saying there is no link. Far from it. He sites many studies including the one that showed a 5x higher incidence of autism among children who had immunzations, over those who did not. His book is all about the link between the two. He says the science is there to show that children exposed to mercury will get autism. He just doesn't make the leap to say he's 100% confident, which is correct, and shows that he is an objective researcher. It's not his job to make conclusions like that anyway. He lays out the evidence which is pretty clear.

Now, you mysteriously failed to mention the issue which prompted me to post that clip - your contention that autism is not going down since thimerosal was removed. If you did listen to the clip, you now know that is false. The very first state to ban thimerosal has shown a 20% reduction in autism. Other states as well.

Now let's get back to your original contention - that it's a "laugh" to think that thimerosal plays a role in autism.

Now that you have read something besides Scientific American do you still think it's a laugh? I don't think so because your last post said "I don't discount the possibility that there could be a connection between mercury and autism." So why would you "laugh" at someone who suggested such?

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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. No, it's a laugh at *how* RFK Jr. et. al. have arrived at their conclusions.
Which is why I wrote, "The problem is RFK's methodology is flawed. His conclusions are based more on conspiracy and conjecture (maybe even fear) than sound statistical analysis or a reliable scientific method."

Simply because X and Y occur at the same time doesn't necessarily mean there is a causal relationship.

One could easily make the argument that the dramatic rise in ADD/ADHD in the last twenty years can also be directly traced back to vaccines. Using this methodology, it should be the main culprit. Yet it isn't considered. Why not? I'm sure I could scrounge up some nifty charts and graphs to prop up my claim. Would that make it true?

Better yet, one could make the claim that the rise in autism is directly linked to the dramatic drop in mumps, measles, and rubella. These kids are getting autism because they didn't have the protection that comes from fighting off these viruses. Of course, there is no evidence of that, but they occurred at the same time so they're linked, right? Maybe God wanted them to have mumps and since we intervened, he gave them autism instead!

This is fun - Lets make some more assumptions based on vague associations. Finland has the most firearms per capita in the world but doesn't even rank in the top 40 nations with gun related murders. Therefore, more guns equals less murder.

Here's another good one. America consumes the most milk products per capita in the world. America also has the highest rate of osteoporosis. Therefore milk causes osteoporosis right?

But this is most troubling to me: Mr. Kirby also mentions a study about pesticides and the role of "other neurotoxins". Yet that is deliberately avoided in the interview. Why? It's because RFK Jr. is secretly in the pocket of Monsanto (as is Hillary). He's trying to deflect the blame from them onto the pharmaceutical companies, the CDC and the FDA. Nuff said.



Regarding your assumptive comment, "read something besides Scientific American". Actually, it's just one of many email updates I receive from various journals, magazines, foundations etc. It just so happened to coincide with your post. But thanks for your concern for the deficiency of my reading sources.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. I don't get it either. Where was Hillary when Bobby was bringing attention to
elections?

here's my take on Hillary's silence:

I am convinced that the failure of the DLC to acknowledge Gore's win in 2000 (in fact they blame his "loss" on breaking with the DLC and becoming a populist-i'll post a link below) and their active role in keeping Kerry from challenging Ohio in 2004(thanks to Clinton ally James Carville (also posted below) was calculated as to allow a HRC run in '08. If either would have taken the office they won, then HRC and her corporate cronies would not have had a chance in 2008. Also look how they try to undermine Howard Dean. Anyway, here are some links:

FIRST..GORE BROKE WITH THE DLC TO BECOME A POPULIST:

Published on Sunday, August 20. 2000 in the Boston Globe
Thank You, Al Gore
by Robert Kuttner
A funny thing happened to Al Gore on the way to his surprisingly effective acceptance speech. He became a liberal.

The speech was as liberal as anything FDR or LBJ or Jesse Jackson or one of the Kennedys might have delivered. It was built around a commitment to fight for ordinary people, against large and powerful interests. This, of course, is precisely what made it effective.

The emotional heart of the speech, Gore's honoring of four ordinary American lives, did not just salute the struggles of workaday families, the way Ronald Reagan often did. It identified who was dishonoring their struggles - corporations. He singled out heartless HMOs who pressure a family to sacrifice a child; drug companies that force a pensioner to choose between food and medicine; corporate polluters; corporations that pay workers inadequate wages.

And he identified the solution: strong, reliable public Social Security; better Medicare; welfare reform that rewards work rather than punishing the needy; higher minimum wages; and more investment in public - not voucher - schools, so that working families don't have to send kids to crumbling classrooms.

What is the evil? Corporate power. What is the remedy? Effective government.

-snip
http://www.commondreams.org/views/082000-105.htm

SECOND, AFTER GORE'S WIN THEY BLAME HIS 'LOSS' ON BREAKING WITH THE DLC:

Strange Theory on Why Gore Lost



The so-called Democratic Leadership Council has decided that Al Gore should have acted more like a Republican in order to win the 2000 presidential electoral college vote in addition to his nationwide popular vote victory. This strange finding has drawn some attention, including coverage by the Associated Press and the Environmental News Service -- we have a few excerpts from their reports for you here.
Al Gore, the self-styled environmental candidate in the 2000 Presidential election, lost his bid for the White House because he campaigned on an outdated "populist" platform that was too liberal for most Americans, according to a new report drafted by the Democratic Leadership Council.

The 40-page report, titled "Why Gore Lost, And How Democrats Can Come Back," concludes that the Democratic Party must move towards the political right -- towards the Republicans -- if it wants to regain control of Congress in 2002 and the White House in 2004.

Al From, the DLC's founder and CEO, opened a freewheeling discussion forum by arguing that Democrat Al Gore made a huge tactical mistake by continually emphasizing that he would "fight for the people and not the powerful" as the nation's first president of the 21st Century.

-snip

http://www.progress.org/goredlc2.htm

AND FINALLY, CLINTON ALLY JAMES CARVILLE'S ROLE IN THE QUICK KERRY CONCESSION:

Did Carville Tip Bush Off to Kerry Strategy (Woodward)


By M.J. Rosenberg | bio




On page 344, Woodward describes the doings at the White House in the early morning hours of Wednesday, the day after the '04 election.

Apparently, Kerry had decided not to concede. There were 250,000 outstanding ballots in Ohio.

So Kerry decides to fight. In fact, he considers going to Ohio to camp out with his voters until there is a recount. This is the last thing the White House needs, especially after Florida 2000.

-snip

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

-snip

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward


THERE ISN'T A PERSON ALIVE WHO COULD CONVINCE ME TO VOTE FOR HILLARY. I HOPE FOLKS WILL TAKE THE TIME TO DO THEIR OWN RESEARCH FOR VOTING FOR HRC.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
37. Then vote for the republican if she gets the nomination...
Thats your choice, bring another 4-8 years of GOP nightmare.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. No I intend to write in a POPULIST Dem should she get the nomination but am
actively working to see that she doesn't.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. RFK Jr. is the real deal. He supports Hillary because he believes in her candidacy.
I don't happen to agree with him on that.
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
24. of course he might just think she would be the best president
but I guess that you can't disagree with somebody and still support their overall record and think that they might just make a good president--not on DU anyway.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
26. " he's enlightened us about the dangers of mercury in immunizations"
If by that you mean utterly incorrect and ignorant, then I would agree with you. I think he is a good guy, but he could hurt a lot of people with that sort of bullshit. He is NOT enlightened about vaccines...and the fact that you, and many others, think so is quite frankly alarming.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. what's alarming is
that the propaganda put out by the drug companies is working and folks like you still don't realize



check out this great PowerPoint:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070617062252/http://www.evidenceofharm.com/Autumn%2006.ppt

there's a ton of good info here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070617062252/www.evidenceofharm.com/





RFK is right on this one. You just have to dig deeper than the drug company propaganda.

or... I supposed you'd like to stick 212.5mcg of mercury into your kid's vein in his/her first year of life, when the recommended maximum exposure is .9 mcg?

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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
29. Clintons and Kennedys have been friends a long time.
I'm HOPING he wants her Senate seat.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
32. maybe he thinks he'd be more influential with her in the WH
than with the other candidates. She listens to him, perhaps.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
34. See last name. His heart and labor are in the right place, but like virtually all of the
ruling class, he still believes that there needs to be a ruling class.



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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
36. You are blind
Thats why you can't see it. It's that simple.
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Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
38. He's one of my heroes too.
I admire that crap out of him

But I disagree with his endorsement.

That's okay though, that doesn't change my feelings towards him. He still rocks!
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
39. I don't get his defense of his murderer cousin, Michael Skakel.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
44. He Accepts Certain Realities, Perhaps?
Just saying ..
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
45. Because he's a rich, east coast WASP beneath it all
and those are the rules.
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