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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 01:47 PM
Original message
Scooter Libby asked that Marc Rich be pardoned for 'tax evasion' but there's too much more
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 02:02 PM by blm
- alot more to the story and tax evasion has just been used as the cover story. Over the course of the Plame-outing threads we have seen names of more obscure BCCI characters at various times.

Marc Rich was involved with BCCI and IranContra and his name pops up in the end of the BCCI report as one of the UNANSWERED questions. Be mindful that this report was submitted in late 1992, so the outstanding matters would have needed attention from the incoming Democratic administration.

Also of interest is the matter of Pakistani nukes and Iraqi and Iraniam arms dealers. I am thinking that the background machinations that led us to war in Iraq are also leading us to war with Iran, and that by pinpointing their machinations we can better counter them.

From the BCCI Report:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/

Matters For Further Investigation

There have been a number of matters which the Subcommittee has received some information on, but has not been able to investigate adequately, due such factors as lack of resources, lack of time, documents being withheld by foreign governments, and limited evidentiary sources or witnesses. Some of the main areas which deserve further investigation include:


1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.


2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.


3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.


4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al-Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.


5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.


6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.


7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and British investigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.


8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.


9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.


10. The nature, extent and meaning of the ownership of shares of other U.S. financial institutions by Middle Eastern political figures. Political figures and members of the ruling family of various Middle Eastern countries have very substantial investments in the United States, in some cases, owning substantial shares of major U.S. banks. Given BCCI's routine use of nominees from the Middle East, and the pervasive practice of using nominees within the Middle East, further investigation may be warranted of Middle Eastern ownership of domestic U.S. financial institutions.


11. The nature, extent, and meaning of real estate and financial investments in the United States by major shareholders of BCCI. BCCI's shareholders and front-men have made substantial investments in real estate throughout the United States, owning major office buildings in such key cities as New York and Washington, D.C. Given BCCI's pervasiveness criminality, and the role of these shareholders and front-men in the BCCI affair, a complete review of their holdings in the United States is warranted.


12. BCCI's collusion in Savings & Loan fraud in the U.S. The Subcommittee found ties between BCCI and two failed Savings and Loan institutions, CenTrust, which BCCI came to have a controlling interest in, and Caprock Savings and Loan in Texas, and as noted above, the involvement of BCCI figures with Charles Keating and his business empire. In each case, BCCI's involvement cost the U. S. taxpayers money. A comprehensive review of BCCI's account holders in the U.S. and globally might well reveal additional such cases. In addition, the issue of whether David Paul and CenTrust's political relationships were used by Paul on behalf of BCCI merits further investigation.


13. The sale of BCCI affiliate Banque de Commerce et de Placements (BCP) in Geneva, to the Cukorova Group of Turkey, which owned an entity involved in the BNL Iraqi arms sales, among others. Given BNL's links to BCCI, and Cukorova Groups' involvement through its subsidiary, Entrade, with BNL in the sales to Iraq, the swift sale of BCP to Cukorova just weeks after BCCI's closure -- prior to due diligence being conducted -- raises questions as to whether a prior relationship existed between BCCI and Cukorova, and Cukorova's intentions in making the purchase. Within the past year, Cukorova also applied to purchase a New York bank. Cukorova's actions pertaining to BCP require further investigation in Switzerland by Swiss authorities, and by the Federal Reserve New York.


14. BCCI's role in China. As noted in the chapter on BCCI's activities in foreign countries, BCCI had extensive activity in China, and the Chinese government allegedly lost $500 million when BCCI closed, mostly from government accounts. While there have been allegations that bribes and pay-offs were involved, these allegations require further investigation and detail to determine what actually happened, and who was involved.


15. The relationship between Capcom and BCCI, between Capcom and the intelligence community, and between Capcom's shareholders and U.S. telecommunications industry figures. The Subcommittee was able to interview people and review documents concerning Capcom that no other investigators had to date interviewed or reviewed. Much more needs to be done to understand what Capcom was doing in the United States, the United Kingdom, Egypt, Oman, and the Middle East, including whether the firm was, as has been alleged but not proven, used by the intelligence community to move funds for intelligence operations; and whether any person involved with Capcom was seeking secretly to acquire interests in the U.S. telecommunications industry.


16. The relationship of important BCCI figures and important intelligence figures to the collapse of the Hong Kong Deposit and Guaranty Bank and Tetra Finance (HK) in 1983. The circumstances surrounding the collpase of these two Hong Kong banks; the Hong Kong banks' practices of using nominees, front-companies, and back-to-back financial transactions; the Hong Banks' directors having included several important BCCI figures, including Ghanim Al Mazrui, and a close associate of then CIA director William Casey; all raise the question of whether there was a relationship between these two institutions and BCCI-Hong Kong, and whether the two Hong Kong institutions were used for domestic or foreign intelligence operations.


17. BCCI's activities in Atlanta and its acquisition of the National Bank of Georgia through First American. Although the Justice Department indictments of Clark Clifford and Robert Altman cover portions of how BCCI acquired National Bank of Georgia, other important allegations regarding the possible involvement of political figures in Georgia in BCCI's activities there remain outside the indictment. These allegations, as well as the underlying facts regarding BCCI's activities in Georgia, require further investigation.


18. The relationship between BCCI and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro. BCCI and the Atlanta Branch of BNL had an extensive relationship in the United States, with the Atlanta Branch of BNL having a substantial number of accounts in BCCI's Miami offices. BNL was, according to federal indictments, a significant financial conduit for weapons to Iraq. BCCI also made loans to Iraq, although of a substantially smaller nature. Given the criminality of both institutions, and their interlocking activities, further investigation of the relationship could produce further understanding of Saddam Hussein's international network for acquiring weapons, and how Iraq evaded governmental restrictions on such weapons acquisitions.


19. The alleged relationship between the late CIA director William Casey and BCCI. As set forth in the chapter on intelligence, numerous trails lead from BCCI to Casey, and from Casey to BCCI, and the investigation has been unable to follow any of them to the end to determine whether there was indeed a relationship, and if there was, its nature and extent. If any such relationship existed, it could have a significant impact on the findings and conclusions concerning the CIA and BCCI's role in U.S. foreign policy and intelligence operations during the Casey era. The investigation's work detailing the ties of BCCI to the intelligence community generally also remains far from complete, and much about these ties remains obscure and in need of further investigation.


20. Money laundering by other major international banks. Numerous BCCI officials told the Subcommittee that BCCI's money laundering was no different from activities they observed at other international banks, and provided the names of a number of prominent U.S. and European banks which they alleged engaged in money laundering. There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. More needs to be researched on why Clinton pardoned Marc Rich
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 02:14 PM by KoKo01
and how Libby became his lawyer. Given what we know about Clinton pushing NAFTA through and the Telecommunications act of '96, plus his inability to deal with the jackals of the Right...make one wonder how long he was compromised in his Administration. Maybe his election was even pushed by "Powers that Be." I say this sadly because I with the exception of NAFTA I defended the Clintons up until stuff started to tumble out about their policies. And, when I saw what Bush did in covering up everything...I wondered why the Clintons allowed that Witch hunt to go on...including sticking with Janet Reno who was no friend of theirs..

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Clinton pardoned Marc Rich, I believe.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. OOP'S...I meant Clinton .....don't know why hands typed Bush...it's fixed..
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 02:22 PM by KoKo01
thanks. As I said in my post...more research needs to be done as to why Clinton pardoned Marc Rich...and why Libby was chosen as Rich's lawyer. The word was that Clinton was heavily pressured to pardon him...but Clinton had to know the storm it would kick up since he was already under a cloud because of Monica. Why would he have wanted to add more pile on from the Media as he left his presidency with the Rich pardon hanging over him.

And, does anyone remember that Denise Rich gave alot of money to Clinton's defense? Which is howthe RW went after him about the pardon... conveniently covering over the connections of Rich himself with BCCI. :shrug:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. I am inclined to believe that Clinton was greatly influenced by Poppy on oil region matters
Edited on Wed Feb-21-07 07:34 PM by blm
and allowed him to have his dealings as long as they were on the QT. I doubt that Clinton was actually involved with the dirty dealings himself.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Here's the tough part - this says Rich needed FURTHER investigating. What was done
by Clinton administration to further investigate on this? This report was submitted in December 1992 - which would have meant a five year investigation's report was inherited by Bill Clinton.

All we know is that this further investigation was never done, and Marc Rich was pardoned by an outgoing Pres. Clinton.

>>>>>
9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.
>>>>>
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. What is the info Sen Kerry is not allowed to proceed with? Could there be
info on Rich?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Probably documents Bush1 kept classified that only a president could unclassify.
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 05:12 PM by blm
Like the argument in the Plame case that Cheney had every right to out an agent because Bush gave him that presidential power to declassify at his own will.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Bush** didn't pardon Marc Rich.
<snip>

Marc Rich (born Marc David Reich on December 18, 1934) is an international commodities trader. He fled the United States in 1983 to live in Switzerland while being prosecuted on charges of tax evasion and illegally making oil deals with Iran during the hostage crisis.

He received a presidential pardon from United States President Bill Clinton in 2001, which required him to pay a $100 million fine before the charges would be dropped.

Most recently, Marc Rich was linked to former United States Vice Presidential Chief of Staff Lewis "Scooter" Libby. Libby served as Rich's lawyer as far back as 1985 and charged him US$2 million for legal fees.

<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich



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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. When GOPs attacked Clinton for Marc Rich pardon, they OBSCURED the reasons by focusing
on the salaciousness of Clinton and Denise Rich's possible relationship which, coupled with the tax evasion baloney, was certainly a convenient smokescreen for the real crimes Rich had been involved with - his obvious work with the BFEE dealing arms all those years.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Sheesh...blm...you and I must be on same wavelength. I just finished
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 02:21 PM by KoKo01
correcting my typo of Bush for Clinton and added the stuff about Denise Rich giving to Clinton Defense as obscuring the Marc Rich connection with BCCI. :D Agree....that more digging would be good on this...but I think folks tried before and it deadended on Google.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. That whole Denise Rich angle was a great smokescreen for BushInc's real purpose.
And the damn media cooperated fully.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. Recall Marc Rich helped effect peace efforts under Clinton, EARNING pardon.
As I recall.

Details were not released, however there was some confirmation from some leaders in another country.

Clinton pardoned Rich for his criminality in tax evasion, but still made him pay the taxes he owed.

Investigate all you want, but I don't think you'll find Clinton complicity.

Most curious to me is how our media spun Clinton as partisan for pardoning a man represented by a top Republican, while avoiding mention of pardoned man's help creating middle east peace. That needs investigation.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Because Israel used Rich's services, too, we are supposed to ignore that he was
an armsdealer and moneylaunderer? Rich was loyal to no country - he was loyal to the BFEE and was a part of the BFEE's connection to BCCI.

I suppose going easy on AQ Khan is acceptable, too, since he was also acting covertly for BFEE all those years?

Clinton's involvement in the pardon was likely as manipulated as anything else the BFEE has succeeded in the last few decades. Doesn't mean that Clinton should get a free pass, does it? He was well aware by then that Poppy coopted him for protective purposes and he was trapped by it long ago when he chose to move past the outstanding matters left him reIranContra, BCCI, Iraqgate and CIA drugrunning.

Clinton got stuck and couldn't reverse it.

Now he is left rehabilitating Poppy Bush's legacy in the public's eye.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks, blm. This is important background to tie things together!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. I hope people stick to this aspect of the Rich pardon, and not the RW version
that centers on speculation about money exchanges and a Bill-Denise Rich fling - that was all hype to obscure Rich's involvements with BushInc.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. Dear God...do we want to go down this path again?
I've put Mark Rich deep in my memory banks.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Same names pop up in Plame outing, Iraq war, possible Iran War and 9-11. You really
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 02:34 PM by blm
think that NOT TAPPING one's memory banks is a good thing?

I would advise relegating the BULLSHIT hyped part of the Marc Rich pardon story to the trash part of the memory bank, but the lesser known resy of the story is more relevant to everything going on today.

It is no fault of any of ours that this story is relevant today for what WASN'T exposed at the time and how the secrecy is linked to and has LED to everything happening today.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yes, didn't Khan's name even show up in the Plame trial?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yes - but, we're supposed to be conditioned to accept coincidences by now.
Some of us just aren't that willing to cooperate with the conventional wisdom setters. The shame is that so many Democrats ARE perfectly willing to ignore so many facts - even after 9-11 and this Iraq war.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. It must be that we are congenital conspiracy theorists.
:sarcasm:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. What is outrageous is that there are plenty of Democrats labeling these facts as coincidence, too,
in their own push to wield power and protect secrecy and privilege.

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Veronica.Franco Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. Follow the money ...
There is no left versus right with these criminals ... there is only profit and loss ... Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton ... NO THANK YOU ...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Unfortunately, it took me way too many years to see it for what it is.
I defended Clinton for years and swore that Clinton had no choice and was forced to ignore the outstanding matters for some greater good - now, I know by his own book and his focused efforts to rehabilitate Poppy Bush in the public eye, that his priority was protecting Bush, his agenda, secrecy and privilege.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
20. So, you want to investigate Bill Clinton??
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. No - I think Clinton was used and may have been duped by Poppy Bush.
Edited on Wed Feb-21-07 09:39 AM by blm
I could give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was unwillingly duped, but it would be hard to believe.

Especially since he never mentions one word about BCCI in his book. That would be akin to George W Bush not mentioning one word about receiving the Hart Rudman Report on Global Terror when his book comes out in 2012.

No - I want everything tracked back to its roots - Clinton is a small part of it, we would be naive to think he wasn't a NEEDED part, though. He just kept the books closed for Poppy and looked the other way while Poppy continued along with his business, that's all, but that's all Poppy needed. Clinton DID actively deny and downplay the CIA drugrunning story when it was revealed in 1996 - again, protecting Poppy.

So, having already coopted protection from the first Clinton administration, my assumption is that Bush2 won't worry too much if a second Clinton administration takes office.

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks for this story, BLM. I can't believe all the incestuous
relationships here. It boggles the mind. Clinton pardons Rich who is a BCCI GOP crony who evenutally gets VP Chief of Staff Scooter Libby as a lawyer. No such thing as a conspiracy when these people are all so obviously connected. I still can't figure out the Clinton piece. What did he get out of it? Not much.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. There are Democrats who don't like to acknowledge these things.
So much for truth.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Not just that they don't acknowledge them, they think it's OK just because
Edited on Wed Feb-21-07 03:57 PM by blm
Clinton can do no wrong in their eyes.

As if the death of thousands on 9-11 and this Iraq war and terror bombings all over the world just happened in a vacuum.

Reveal the entire network of terrorists and their REAL financiers and you can get people all over the world to agree to stop cooperating with and being manipulated by the actual terrorists and the governments who have covertly endorsed their operations.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks for you work on this, blm!
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
30. -------------------------------------------------------------
Edited on Wed Feb-21-07 09:14 PM by MethuenProgressive
---------------------------------

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Hotler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
31. Kicked!
Hollywood couldn't write this stuff......It would be a good read if it wasn't so true.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I think Geffen's remarks about Marc Rich pardon outrage can bring the REAL story out
if it is pursued in any way.

I hope that it DOESN'T revisit the feigned outrage from the RW where they wanted people to believe Clinton took money or was having an affair with Denise Rich - that was pure RW bullshit. The GREATER story is Marc Rich's real crimes of armsdealing as a BFEE tool and the protection sought for him by Scooter Libby a BFEE lawyer. I have no doubt that Clinton was MANIPULATED into that pardon, but it was still a bad decision for this country - and another decision that ended up protecting Poppy Bush, his secrecy and privilege.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
33. a very tangled web all of these people weave -- same names keep popping up
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. And we are told to believe it's mere coincidence - nothing behind the curtain.
.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
35. kick
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. and another kick
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