Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

X-Rays showing no bullet or shrapnel

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:28 PM
Original message
X-Rays showing no bullet or shrapnel
MSNBC just said, "As a matter of fact, Bhutto died not from a bullet or shrapnel, but from a concussion suffered when she ducked back into her SUV" and then the broadcaster said that the Pakistani Government has X-Rays that prove this :eyes:

WTF?

I thought that Islam forbids autopsy's? And Bhutto's husband did not allow one to take place, so, how did the govt get X-Rays of her head to "prove" she died from a concussion :eyes:?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent questions.
And then there's the impossible physics of the situation.

And then there's the political expediency of her dying at her own hand ... but we won't go there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Political Expendiency, indeed
MSNBC just had some fool on saying, "Bhutto was Bush's only hope to bring about peace to Pakistan"

Who knew, Bush and Bhutto were best buddies? :eyes:

Too bad we may never know the answers.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. PIC of the x-ray


A handout released on Friday by Pakistan's Interior Ministry shows images of opposition leader Benazir Bhutto's skull. Interior ministry spokesman Javed Iqbal Cheema said on Friday Bhutto had not been shot, nor had she been hit by shrapnel from the blast but she had been killed when the force of the explosion crashed her head against a lever on the sun-roof of her vehicle.
(Interior Ministry/Handout/Reuters)
Photo Tools
Email IM Print Purchase Cart Recommend Recommended No users recommend
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. So she was basically killed by the blast concussion with the sunroof ....
...lever causing her ultimate demise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. Well, judging from the xray, the blast concussion caused her
brain tissue to find itself in far too close proximity to the metal sunroof handle. But let's not quibble over the sad details.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. To get even geekier, I'd say it was the shock wave travelling through her brain tissue...
...delivered through her skull by the metal sunroof handle.

:cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Well, there's that.
Ad least she didn't suffer. I'm sure she was immediately "gorked".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Interesting
Glad to know they were so "expedient" when it comes to proving no culpabilities in her death. To bad they could not be as expedient when it came to her life....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. That could be anyone's head. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Exactly
The official line is that she "killed herself by jumping back into her suv" nothing more to see here, move along folks.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Could be a UFO, as crappy as it is.
That's gotta be one of the WORST X-Ray photos I've ever seen.

THIS is a skull x-ray:


THAT is a blue blob.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I'd say.
Edited on Fri Dec-28-07 01:50 PM by lizzy
It's a very poor quality photo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Worse
it looks worse then just a poor quality photo, it raises more questions then it provides answers....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberalla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. How do we know this is an X-ray of her head?
It could be someone else with head fractures...
Just asking, not arguing...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. ah, now WHO would lie about such a thing?
:think:

AH, nevermind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. right--looks like somebody took two copies and scissored in "fractures"
whoever did this crap--not very convincing to a layperson. Is this a credible fracture anyone? or cut&paste ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Right. There are two horizontal lines going through the whole
photo where the fractures are supposed to be.
It's like the piece has been cut out and then pasted back in slightly shifted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. I was thinking the same
...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. An x-ray is not an autopsy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Thanks
I never said that it was, my question was and still is, how did the govt take X-Rays? and why? to prove their "theory"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I guess when you string two thoughts together like this:


"husband did not allow one(being the autopsy) to take place, so, how did the govt get X-Rays" .....(bolding mine)

One would get the impression you confused the two. No?


Anyway, perhaps her husband authorized this non-invasive procedure???

Or maybe they did it while they were working on her. It's usually one of the first things done in an ER. That said, I don't know if they ever, in fact, DID "work" on her.....do you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Thanks
You are right, i am wrong. I did think that X-rays were apart of an official autopsy. Sorry i was being confusing. The news media said that they "preformed" surgery on her... Who knows what to believe anymore.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. well, they probably took the x rays to find out if something
was inside her head. We don't know that these weren't taken while she was still alive or not.

I don't see how it helps Musharif to lie about the cause of her death. She's still dead, and at an assassin's hand. That she was killed by the concussion blast is certainly plausible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. It greatly helps Musharif
If she died, by concussion, they she "killed herself" and neither the Govt or the Bombers could be held responsible for it. And it makes her less of a martyr if she ducked and hit her head on the sunroof....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. no, it doesn't mean she killed herself, anymore than the other
20 people killed by the bomb killed themselves.

Nothing is going to help Musharif here. He's fucked, IMO.

Let's just hope that whoever replaces him doesn't favor the extremists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I hope his "Govt" falls
I do hope he is "fucked" as you put it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. That's silly.
The concussion was caused by the violent impact of her head striking the sunroof as a result of the detonation of the bomb. The bomb was responsible. She didn't just bump her head.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. I agree
....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. X rays are not invasive
so certainly different from autopsy, which involves actual cutting into a corpse.

That explosion was enormous. My guess is that either massive skull fracture or cervical disconnection was seen on Xray. "Concussion" merely describes the mechanism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. This still begs the question: where did the original report come from?
Edited on Fri Dec-28-07 02:08 PM by IDemo
Wasn't the initial report (presumably from an eyewitness close at hand) that Bhutto was "shot in the neck and chest"?

-- "She was hit in the neck and slumped back in the vehicle."

and - According to the account told by photographer John Moore of Getty Images, Benazir Bhutto was shot in the neck and chest as she waved to crowds of supporters - and at least one enemy - while standing through the sunroof of her vehicle leaving the Rawalpindi rally.

That sounds very specific, much more so than "shots rang out and she fell/ducked/disappeared". I'd like to hear more from one of the people who offered that firsthand account.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That is the $64,000 question
I wonder if we will ever find that out?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
41. The original report was reasonable.
If I were there, it's what I would have said. It's specific, but strangely so: It's summarizing, as if after the fact. I think he's wrong; not that he's lying, just that he's doing what eye witnesses have always done, remembering what he believed he saw and not what he actually saw. Try this narrative.

I hear loud noises that I identify as gunshots. I see Bhutto quickly move downwards into the car; abductive reasoning says I was right, they were gunshots, and adds that the bullets caused her rapid downward movement into the car--it's my fear, it's the shooter's goal, so it's what my mind suspects at once, and it's compatible with the facts (not entailed by the facts, an important distinction). When she's taken out of the car, her face is intact--so I figure that a high-velocity bullet didn't go into her skull (after all, no part of her head splattered onto the car roof). However, there's a lot of blood on her neck and her clothing, and blood on the car seat and the floor. Her neck and torso were exposed. I've already suspected she was shot, and believe that was confirmed. There were two shots fired. I could say, "She was shot either in the neck by one bullet, in the chest by one bullet, in the neck by two bullets, in the chest by two bullets, or in both the neck and the chest." I simply don't know--I haven't seen the bullet wounds in her chest, now have I? If I say she was just in the neck or chest I might be too specific. So I'm sloppy: "She was shot in the neck and chest", treating "neck and chest" as sort of a single body part. There are times when "or" can mean "and," and "and" can be intended in such a non-committal way that if it turns out to be "or" there's no falsehood involved. Language is not always precise like we want it to be.

Note the implied timeline: It's important. If the shots rang out, and just a couple of seconds later the bomb went off, then the bomb could have caused the concussion as she was ducking or being pulled down into the car by her bodyguards. (That's what the official report implies: to partially discredit it somebody needs to transcribe the timeline from a videotape and show that the bomb blast happened after she would have been back in the car.) On the other hand, the bomb would immediately attract everybody's attention: Who's going to pay attention to a slight deflection of the course of Bhutto's head as she's ducking down/falling into the car when there's this loud "boom" and bodies are being flung about? All the bodyguards would know is that she was heading down into the car and when they looked at her after the big boom, she was unconscious and bleeding, slumped in the car: What do you think, "blunt trauma to head" or do you blame the air-borne lead that must have been whizzing around a few seconds later? The lead. It also means that nobody would have been watching *outside* the car to see the concussion happen, or if they glimpsed it their mental attention was elsewhere. Actually, reports seem to be saying that people saw her finish her "fall" or "ducking" into the car--something it's almost impossible to believe people noticed if the bomb blast went off as she was falling/ducking in. However, I'd expect people to remember seeing what experience says is a surety--we fabricate memories all the time, and eye witnesses are hideously good at remembering things they don't actually see, and misremembering things they do see, especially when the mistakes are in keeping with their expectations and biases. In any event, when attention returned to her seconds after the bomb blast, whether she was shot or concussed, she'd be slumped in the vehicle. And while it's compatible with either of two scenarios, it's most likely to be taken as confirmation the narrative already in people's minds: she was shot in the neck and/or chest.

The second scenario the official report replies is not the case: There was gunfire, she somehow returned to the cabin of the car, and sometime later there was a bomb blast. Then we might expect somebody to have noticed that she banged her head--bodyguards or admirers standing a few feet from the car. On the other hand, the head-thump might not have been salient, or memorable, since people might be looking around after the gunshots--and most seem to have concluded, whether at the time or in retrospect, that she was shot. Falling unconscious people hit their heads, and that's not memorable. Having her finish her ducking into the car with a collapse or slump would only confirm their initial assumptions.

But note there's also silence where we expect noise: If you get shot, I imagine you usually jerk or twitch. There are no reports of this, even from people near the car--and the bodyguards are quiet, while I'd expect them to say that she was limp as she began to fall or not limp as she ducked. Moreover, you'd expect those on the scene to be a bit more specific: "I saw a bullet wound in her neck when she was taken out of the car" or "when she was slumped in the seat"--but there aren't any such reports. It's unlikely that anybody would have ripped off her dress on the street to allow somebody to say, "I saw bullet wounds in her left shoulder and left side of her neck". But we still have "shot in the neck and chest" or "neck and shoulder"--the only parts visible, the only parts that could have been shot and been consistent with her face and head being pretty much intact, but with blood on her neck and clothing. And, finally, people have said there are no bullets in the body because they passed through: Has anybody considered that if the bullets came from the side and hit her chest they'd have hit the sunroof, either on their way to Bhutto or on their way out--and even if the bullets came from the front or back, if there's an exit wound in her neck or chest you'd expect blood splatter on parts of the car *other* than the sunroof handle. Those first on the scene would have seen it. Perhaps others in the thick crowd would have been hit by the bullets before they came to a rest. Yet no enterprising investigative reporter seems to have unearthed such a witness, a secondary victim, or shown that the sunroof is not intact.

In other words, I think it's likely people are reporting their inferences as observation along with actual observations, or their inference is interpreted as observation. The first eye witness accounts are exactly what you get from inference--only the narrative inference furnishes, and nothing less than inference would furnish. Until the blunt trauma cause of death was advanced, there was nothing to cause anybody to doubt the eye witnesses. With the claim of blunt trauma, you have to look and wonder if the narrative isn't a bit too pat and idealized--the marksman fires from a distance, hits her twice without anybody noticing the bullets actually hitting her or seeing exit-wound splatter, or finding the bullets either in her body or hitting one of the dense throng around the car; she falls down into the car as the bomb blast happens, but people watch her slump into the car instead of looking at the loud boomy thing; nobody says where the neck wound is, but they all know it's there; she's not said to have been stripped, but even the photographer some 30 yards away seems to advance as observation that she was shot in the chest. Too many people know things they can't know, have seen things I don't believe any reaonable person on the scene would have seen. But it forms a plausible narrative and comports with the facts known at the time: Just perfect for shaping memories and filling in gaps, something the brain loves to do, unaware that reality and what it fills in aren't always the same thing.

My usual caveat: This only means that the skull-fracture account isn't disconfirmed by initial reports, and both of the narratives are completely possible. Personally, I think the initial reports are wrong but with no dishonesty involved (however hard it may be for people to conceive of such a thing), but wouldn't be surprised to find out otherwise and that the doctors are lying. I just think eye witness error is more plausible than a cover up, perhaps because I've personally seen "eye witnesses" be even more horribly, self-assuredly wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. And there's this note from Hindustan Times:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks
another good read....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
22. Now they are saying it really is her fault
"Why did she not think about her teenage kids?" MSNBC is on a roll today :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. An x-ray is not an autopsy. It is non-invasive, and not prohibited. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
33. An x-ray is not an autopsy (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
35. It's hard not to be skeptical
I watched IBN (CNN out of India) for hours yesterday and they repeatedly showed an interview with an injured eyewitness who claimed to have seen her shot prior to the explosion of a suicide bomber.

During the hours of these broadcasts, IBN ran numerous crawls of various versions of the death. Not one of them did not mention gunfire. One rumor mentioned two semi-automatic weapons. They said she was shot in the throat/neck and chest, or head and chest.

The contention in at least one of these rumors, then, is that two or three person were involved, which would corroborate the "congratulations" intercept allegedly captured by intelligence (not that I'm much inclined to believe that report).



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
36. Just to add to your excellent question
Another question is what is MSNBC doing vouching for a generalized, unspecified source? Who was speaking for the Pakistani government? And why should MSNBC believe them? Or worse, was this hearsay, passed from a reporter to another reporter and broadcast globally. I didn't see it, but it sounds terribly irresponsible.

Remember the chaos after the JFK assassination? There were--according to Bugliosi's tome--myriad rumors that were being reported as "fact." But that was back in the day before we naturally assumed that governments lie all the time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. She kept saying
that it was the Pakistani Govt the released the X-Ray photo's. So, i guess that's the end of that....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
39. And who's x-ray is it? We'll never know.
A link to all the changing stories: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/bhutto.death/index.html

And a link to a piece of videotape with 3 gunshots. Watch the back left of the vehicle, a hand with a gun reaches up.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2007/12/28/bts.cheema.bhutto.cause.ptv
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
College Liberal Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Thanks
Thanks for the links.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Apr 29th 2024, 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC