Happy 3rd Anniversary in the Senate, Obama!

Does he http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2568127&mesg_id=2568127">really think he's ready?

- Dave

... who won't overshadow him in the experience department?

- Dave

eom

... be the nominee.

- Dave

... you want to use in the primaries?

Why not the other Dems in the field?

- Dave

Define experience.

Why does your definition of experience supercede mine?

Years of community organization and activism.

More years in elective office than all but two others running.

Direct involvement in community expansion by partnerships with business.

Constitutional law professor.

Why aren't those things "experience"?

And no; Bush isn't the standard. But, what was FDR's foreign policy experience when he won in '32? He did pretty well! How about Lincoln's?

This is a canard and you're using it like a club.
The Professor

... and I'm honestly agnostic about Obama.

- Dave

... with my Gen Y brother (an Obama fan), I tried to elicit a single policy, legislative achievement, or other objective criterion on which I could understand his support.

We're in sync on Hillary. He can articulate a number of objective criteria upon which he has eliminated her from his primary vote list.

While I suspect that our next discussion on the topic will go much differently (he'll probably have a laundry list of reasons for me), I was surprised to find him at a loss for facts.

This experience has been repeated with just about every Obama supporter I know.

- Dave

... but have landed on Edwards. I think Obama is a gifted speaker, but I don't think he's seasoned enough yet. I think it is extremely presumptuous to reach for the keys to the Oval this early. He's essentially saying that he's as qualified as JFK or RFK, and I just don't buy that.

- Dave

Yet you criticized both of them along with Obama in your linked post because of their limited Senate experience. :wtf:

... I've set aside my misgivings about Edwards' single-term experience in the Senate, although I'd still like to hear him explain more cogently what prompted him to leave. I've expressed that in prior posts.

As for Senator Clinton, my vote was hers to lose; she lost it because so many of her stances on policies that I care deeply about are just bass-ackwards from the direction I'd like to see us move toward.

I flat out don't think that Obama is ready. If he's the nominee and eventual winner, I hope like the dickens that I'm wrong.

- Dave

What point am I supposed to make of that? I should vote for Quayle?

Is there a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States">single name on this list with less experience than Obama?

- Dave

What experience counts, what doesn't?

The primary season gives us a chance to weigh and evaluate candidate not just on their experience in previous offices, but their experiences in the private sector, in non-profit work, in academia, in life. We judge their character and relate their values to ours.

Or we could save all this time and money and just have monster.com look at everyone's resume instead of holding primaries.

By the way, since you brought it up, I could pick through that list and argue for or against the resume of many presidents. What counts as experience? I could point out Grover Cleveland was mayor of Buffalo for one year, and Gov. of NY for two years, before elected president. I could point out Abe Lincoln was a one term congressman. Washington, Eisenhower, Taylor, and Grant never held office.

... but we probably all ascribe different weights to each.

1. "experiences in the private sector": I will have to educate myself more about his private sector experience (e.g., the clients he represented).

2. "in non-profit work": Dito.

3. "in academia": I can skip that one. He's a very gifted orator. I remarked on that early in 07 when Hillary and he did the dueling church appearances to mark Selma. He put her to shame.

4. "in life": By all appearances, he has a loving and close-knit family. I can skip that one too.

If he's the nominee, I'll vote for him for at least one reason: judicial noms.

- Dave

I just meant in general. I know a great deal about Obama's general assembly record. But not much about public sector work, for example. But I generally don't think experience in government alone translates to Presidential timber.

Just trying to facilitate the discussion of how we see experience in the job search for a job with no equal.

... where Obama is concerned. I don't see myself working against his candidacy during the primaries, for sure. But I still haven't really had an Obama supporter explain to me what - besides the feel good buzz of his oratory - qualifies him to sit in the Oval. If I want to read an inspiring quote, I own a copy of Bartlett's, and have several other quote books on my shelf. If I want to hear an inspiring quote delivered by a firebrand, the Internet has downloadable videos of past Presidents and other inspiring speakers.

About the only reason I'd vote for Hillary at this point is judicial noms.

Edwards' candidacy resonates for me, and the more I learn about his policies, and the more I see of his willingness to remain open to persuasion on the policies where he's out of sync with where I'd like to see the President, the more I like.

I still wish Governor Mark Warner of Virginia had run.

- Dave

I'll be the first to admit, Obama's campaign has been seen in the media as inspirational and short on substance. He has a tendency to be quite nuanced in positions he takes, and not as skilled at explaining them in those nuanced terms. Perhaps hat's why the media ignores it and focuses on his speeches. Hillary is the same way. Very intelligent in policy concerns, but unable to relate. It's like having a nobel laureate teaching a general ed. course. If they actually get into policy discussions, they completely lose folks in the discussion.

The substance is there with both, but substance is hard relate in retail politics. Frankly, not everyone can sit down and do the research. It's all about slick mailers and slicker websites, and that is unfortunate. But if they mailed policy papers to voters, no one would vote.

My personal experience is from the years right after journalism school, when found work doing oppo research on Obama during his senate run, so I find myself with a deep knowledge and understanding of how he votes and works himself politically. (I wouldn't think of saying, "trust me, he's a good guy" because, after all, it's just my judge of his character.)


To close, I think we as a party are incredibly lucky to have so many good candidates this cycle. For the first time I've been voting, I'm pleased with all the candidates we're presenting.

... can you point to other legislative highlights or relevant information that would help an agnositic, but persuadable type?

: )

I'm planning on continuing to work my tail end off for Edwards, but if Obama is the nom, I'd like to be as informed as possible to pivot and start working for him.

- Dave

It isn't about the "experience" that Hil, Bush and Cheney have, it is about people being fed up with the same lame ass whining from both sides of the aisle.

It should kind of illustrate a pattern here that Huckabee was the other winner. This is about something other than the hapless status quo defenders.



Laura

... except 2000 and 2004 are still fresh in my memory.

- Dave

That doesn't bother me. He's brilliant.

What bothers me is watching him adopt the same slick tactics that have served the corporati so well and us so poorly. As I type, I'm watching a rerun of his audience chant "USA!USA! USA!".

I don't trust anyone who has to choreograph this appeal to nationalism in this way. That's not change. That's the some old under new management.

... was slightly off-putting, but it's an election night win, so I took that with a grain of salt. I didn't perceive it as choreographed by the campaign.

His oratory is natural and gifted; it's the policies stances (and lack of specificity) that bother me.

Plus, I can't help but wonder: how many caucuses were swarming with GOP "independents," with marching orders to help put Obama over the top?

LOL...I may have just channeled Hillary for a moment: vast blah blah blah.

:rofl:

- Dave

:spank:

lol

... is slick enough to escape sometimes.

:rofl:

- Dave

... or the other candidates in the Democratic field?

- Dave

... that's in the other window.

- Dave

They're reaching critical mass. Might be time to duck and cover.
The Professor

I'm certain he's going to seriously look it over, heavily contemplate your logic, begin asking himself "oh my god, he's right. What am I doing?", and withdraw from the race within days. Be on the lookout for it.

... can you also pass along a message to Hillary?

"Fire Mark Penn."

- Dave

She said she's going to seriously think it over, heavily contemplate your logic, begin asking herself "oh my god, he's right. What am I doing?", and fire him within days. Be on the lookout for it.

Good enough for me.

... to the pile of pro-Obama objective facts.

- Dave

... and what an appropriate celebration.

- Dave