Why the Generational Split among Women Voters in Iowa? Did Some Identify with "That" Woman?

I have a theory about why there was a generational split among women voters last night in Iowa.

That theory can be simply summed up as follows: empowered, younger women did not see "that" woman as the villain, nor did they necessarily respect Senator Clinton's decision to stick with Bill.

I know this is an unpopular issue to bring up in some parts; but the "strategery" put forward by Mark J. Penn - who Gore had the good sense to fire - has been largely predicated on the idea that Senator Clinton would reap a monolithic crop of women's votes. Last night put that premise in serious doubt.

Any other theories on the generational split seen in women's votes in Iowa last night?

- Dave

I would hope that is the case, however the vote went...

Me too, but there are a lot of voters who vote on feelings, not facts.

- Dave

When I watched the Democratic caucus from Iowa last night on C-SPAN, the Barack crowd looked overwhelmingly male and around 20-40 years old to me. I realize this was just one precinct, however, their results were pretty close to the final count. I think this is just a story the media has made up to have something to say. It would be interesting to see if there are any statistics to back it up.



Oops, edited to correct "CNN" to "C-SPAN".

... can be found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa#Demographics">here.

- Dave

The Clinton administration is a hazy memory for them, not the peace-and-prosperity Pax Americana recalled by voters who were old enough to be trying to make a living in both the Clintons' 1990s and Bush's 2000s.

Hillary Clinton just doesn't have as much sentimental value for younger voters.

... a lot of media measures show 18-25, 26-30, and 30-35 when breaking down demographics.

But your point is well-taken.

- Dave

... the story is still fresh.

Even those of us born at the tail end of Vietnam, or as Watergate was becoming a crisis, understand that each story deeply affected the nation and changed its history forever.

We may not have "experienced" the stories, but we still know them.

- Dave

Doesn't she appeal more to older women/

I thought that Oprah appealed to the 50-something female demographic most.

... but maybe we could get Mark Penn - head of Burson-Marsteller - on that after he's let go by the Clintons.

- Dave

I doubt Monica had anything to do with it.

Supposedly empowered younger women will often run as far away as they can get from the word, "feminist."

Or maybe they just liked Obama better?

But Corp Gov Activist is partially right...

She won't get the female vote JUST for being female; and...

Wow...I was just about to say that NO ONE wants a Cuckold, but
then I googled it, and turns OUT...

they are VERY popular!

:blush:

... the blush-making stuff (YIKES, who knew?!?), you touched upon a meme I've heard from Gen Y'ers: "if she's so smart, supposedly, how come she couldn't figure out that the person she's supposedly closest to was cheating on her?"

Fairly or unfairly, that's out there.

- Dave

But I think that many women were disgusted that she didn't leave him.
OR take the stand that they had an "open" marriage and that she was
OK with it.

I think she would bring the 'pukes and libertarians out in DROVES to
the polls. People DISLIKE her intensely for lots of reasons, and she
hasn't bothered playing to the base of her own party.

are also young stay at home moms.
I think that Obama's message may have resonated with many of those women.

... one factor among many?

I think so.

- Dave

that any woman anywhere based her vote on memories of Monica Lewinsky? Perhaps I shouldn't feel insulted by the implication that women are such complete and total idiots that they'll decide their vote for president based on how they feel about a soap opera involving a dalliance 10 years ago, but -- sheesh.

If there was a generational split, I'd suggest it's perhaps because younger women want the kind of change that Obama represents more than older women tend to. Or maybe older women have to some extent been turned off by Obama's "Hillary's too old" rhetoric -- I know I have (I'm 6 months younger than Obama, and find his Baby Boomer bashing pretty repugnant). I honestly don't know why anyone would support Hillary, so it's hard to say. But to assume that the crucial factor was in how women thought about a fellatio incident from 10 years ago as they went into the Iowa caucuses -- I'm highly skeptical. I'd like to see some evidence.

... coming from Gen Y'ers on that subject. There seems to be a perception that Senator Clinton made her mind up to stay with Bill out of one or more of the following: (1) an outmoded sense of duty; (2) a calculating sense of political expedience; and/or (3) a desire to wear the martyr mantle.

- Dave

And why are they still talking about the Monica incident? I'm 46, and I haven't heard anyone talking about it.

... use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Y">slightly different age ranges.

- Dave

Since as Marc Halprin , Al Hunt, John Meachum, Shelby Steel explained
Obama is a blank slate. No one really knows Obama or what Change Means.
Young people can put their individual ideas of what change means on that
slate and tell themselves he believes in the exact same change they wish.
Since he has not committed, no one really knows. The emotions carry
the moment.

Women who support Hilary are reality based. They realize that in DC
change takes a lot of understanding of how the system works and they
see Hilary as the one who will not let them outsmart her too often
and will hang in there with a ferocious tenacity to get things done.
Their emotional response would be pride in seeing a woman as President.
A woman as President does not drive them---A competent tough woman
is what they see is needed. HRC has shown she can be tough and
she can be nice

The DC Media are the only people I know who are so shallow that they
cannot get past the"marriage". Ordinary people sitting out here
on a Cul de sac in Ohio.--long ago, decided each couple works out
their own marriage their own way --and we do not need a bunch
of gossip hungry journalists to determine America's future.

I support J. Edwards BTW. Yes, if something happens and he
cannot win, I go to Hilary.

... in most voters' decisions (there are a few genuine single issue voters out there).

I wouldn't bring this up, if I hadn't heard quite a few Democratic women bringing it up recently.

- Dave

Secondly, I don't think most of the younger female vote had Monica on their minds when they chose to back Obama-eight years ago they were 10 and 11 year olds, and probably more into soccer and friends than politics. Obama represents change for them, and he isn't a "used to be" (used to be a senator, used to be first lady). He's young and they relate to him. and he was successful in moving a large chunk of younger generation to get off their asses and get involved in creating the nation they want to see, and I applaud him for that.

For Clinton, the draw from older women is simple. Many of those women that sat in my precinct caucus last night were 80+ years old.They were not the least bit shy of saying they were voting for Hillary because she is a woman. If they don't remember when women couldn't vote, their mothers sure as hell did-and fought like hell for the right. I sat in my caucus last night marveling at these ladies. Can you imagine starting your life without the right to vote, and ending it with a woman president? I've always had the right to vote...my mother has always had the right to vote. We do not have any concept of anything different.

... said, "The diesel engine. When I saw a train that didn't require a man to shovel coal into it anymore, I knew America could achieve anything."

We expected him to say something like the first man on the moon.

Your point is well-taken.

- Dave

Women over the age of 60 are much more likely to remember the days of segregation, blacks in the back of the bus, whites in the front, etc. They are the least likely to be able to stomach a black president - or at least think that this country is forward enough to vote for one even if they themselves like Obama. Perhaps the overall results of last night will sway them - we will see.

Conversely, many younger people of my generation (i'm 30) all have black friends, went to school with black kids.. and although there was racism - it was undercurrents.. not outright. And, most of us frankly HATE racism and will do whatever to fight it.

So for those who think Obama can't get elected because of Race.. i don't believe that to be true.. but, I do think that there are some people who are not yet ready to push the button for him, until they really see with their own eyes that the younger generation of this country have moved on beyond race.

I'll add that as a High School Graduate in 1995.. my memories of the Clintons were much more on the Gossip side, and much less on what Bill actually did for the country. Now, I can look back and realize what he did for the economy, etc...

But, in 1995 as i'm graduating High School - there were a lot of Cigars passed around, and none of us smoked! One of my good friends was named Monica.. and she took the brunt of so much teasing for 4 years (in college) that I don't know if she's ever recovered.

And, i'll tell you what - if my husband cheated on me.. maybe the first time i'd do everything I could to work it out. But do it the second time (Flowers, Lewinski.. and on, and on) and You're ass is out the door, and i'm not even letting you take your fuckin' underwear. A lot of women of this generation have NO respect for someone who (in our view) is willing to be a doormat - especially when it appears she did so just to climb a political ladder. That's even worse!

So.. there you go - that is why (IMO) Hillary will have a difficult time attracting young people, and from my first post.. why Obama may have trouble attracting older ones!

... is PRECISELY what I'm hearing from my Gen Y friends.

- Dave

Honestly pretty true. You judge a candidate on his/her character.. and her "character" when standing next to Obama (to ME anyway) is pathetic. She comes across as a shrill woman who has calculated her way to the whitehouse since she stood next to Bill as he said "I did not have sexual relations with that woman".

Honestly.. if she'd divorced his sorry ass and kicked him to the curb.. i'd be 100% more likely to want to support her (still don't know if I would vs. Obama) - but to the whole Womens Lib generation.. where we all go to college and strive to make the same or more salary as our husbands.. Hillary acting like a doormat just looks sad to me (and others in my age range).

And, admittedly.. i WAS playing soccer & volleyball and going to parties during Clinton Era #1.. so all I really remember was Bill fooling around and getting more media attention and Letterman jokes then Brittney Spears does. Bush is a HUGE political embarassment.. but Clinton was a social one.

I've heard that over and over - that exact phrase.

I guess Mark Penn didn't dare focus group *that* issue.

; )

- Dave

:rofl:

- Dave

... can you help me out with http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2592030&mesg_id=2592030">Obama's stance on gay rights?

His appearance at the http://visiblevote08.logoonline.com/">LOGO/HRC VisibleVote forum was so-so for me.

- Dave

Kind of boggles the mind. People who are doormats do not succeed as far in life as HRC.

As for "political climber"--well that term fits most politicians.

This argument from younger women, if it's really widespread, seems simplistic. If true, maybe they could take some time to ask why many older women see Hillary as a heroine, a survivor, a woman strong enough to actually be president. (Disclaimer--I'm not a Hillary for president supporter, but I do understand why many women are).

If their Moms are voting for Hillary well...you wouldn't want to vote like your Mom (this is not your Mom's Chevrolet or whatever). Obama has put out some very deliberate anti-Boomer rhetoric in his quest for the presidency but I don't know if many young voters are even aware of that. I think young people in general are going for him simply because of their disgust with B*sh. They don't really appreciate what women of Hillary's age have had to go through and they want to distance from that generation.

So I'm not sure I accept this as a general opinion held by young women not supporting Hillary, but it's an interesting question.

... with a number of opinionated Gen Y and X friends and family members who let it rip when it comes to Hillary.

- Dave

seems to me it's fair to ask questions about how they got there. I appreciate your offering these opinions as info about the thinking of your significant others. Not intending to criticize, just understand it. So often people spout what they hear or what they think is an acceptable opinion rather than their real opinions (or to cover the fact that they have no opinions). At this point I don't know if that is operational here. I'm not out to change anybody's hard & fast opinions, just trying to see how hard & fast they really are and to expand the thinking on this. Hillary apparently is making these latter days work for her. Bill seems OK with it. Relationships often mystify others, even when we are close to them. Why is this a weakness in Hillary?

The idea that Hillary is "weak" (a doormat) because of her response to her husband's rather adolescent sexual preferences --ie. as many as possible while also married-- is very interesting to me. One could just as easily see her as incredibly strong and resilient considering the ghastly public spotlight put on it all. Is this a fear response about the tenuous nature of marriage these days in general? Do older women have more tolerance because they like Hillary, have lived it? How about younger women or men who have experienced betrayals (sexual or otherwise) and gone on to patch it up? Would they see this differently? Is this "Leave him or be damned" a hard line opinion or should it be more what all women should do? Dunno. Knowing Hillary nobody will likely conclude that she is "standing by her man" in the Tammy Wynette sense. In fact, it seems to me that it's the more independent type of older professional woman who typically supports Hillary for President...the ones who know how to turn situations around and keep the big picture--tremendous assets for CEOs.

Whether Hillary's decision to stay with Bill is out of loyalty, forgiveness, love, acceptance of what might be seen as an addiction, or just using him is hard to fathom. In taking Bill's help now she is extracting a certain level of payback. He seems to be atoning, but addictions are strong. I doubt he has many women lining up to get it on with him, but there are always the odd ones (& one would have to be odd or disturbed to want to be the next Monica).

How Hillary handled Monicagate is relevant to a certain extent IMO...they are players in an archetypal human drama that we have all witnessed to a greater degree than we ever wanted to.
The way women of all ages seem to have interpreted this behavior is relevant. Personally I'd like to vote for Hillary because of her overcoming of Monicagate, but her other policies take precedence and stop me from supporting her.

Just chattin :) Social psychology my thing.

... and to address one of your questions: it seems to be a trend among my circle that "once is forgiveable, but more than once, and it's over."

Hence, the doormat meme.

- Dave

I know plenty of people in marriages and relationships that have had infidelity incidents and the relationship survived. It can be a big sign of maturity. For that matter, I know people who do have open arrangements. WhatEVER. Adults conduct their relationships as they please, and I don't give a damn. I hate the gossip/judging cycle, it's got nothing to do with me or anyone I care about.

Is this "Leave him or be damned" a hard line opinion or should it be more what all women should do? Dunno. Knowing Hillary nobody will likely conclude that she is "standing by her man" in the Tammy Wynette sense. In fact, it seems to me that it's the more independent type of older professional woman who typically supports Hillary for President...the ones who know how to turn situations around and keep the big picture--tremendous assets for CEOs.

Yup. It's just not that relevant, except that obviously Bill is an asset to her in some ways, so why sould she walk away from that if she didn't want to? She probably even loves him anyway. Good for her!

That being said, I support Obama or Edwards over her. Why? The war, and economics, respectively. A blowjob back in the 90s is the last thing on my mind! (Although I suppose I do "identify with THAT woman" in the sense that I probably would give Bill one if I got the chance too! Why? The most superficial and obvious reason: he's hot. And, of course, bragging rights. :evilgrin:)

:spray:

- Dave

:)

that Hillary did not do a couple of things (and I am a woman and I can say these things)

1. She never ONCE busted his ass publicly

2. She stayed with his sorry ass (she did NOT have little children at home)

3. She has consistently sold out women on issues...her own gender...when the Repubs were in charge and it really did not matter a DAMN way or not so you should vote your conscience..can you say Omnibus Bill and date rape drug?

4. She has never once, in any way, hinted, suggested, mentioned, leaned toward, or in any other way gave a nod to any type of statement about her war vote. I am not talking about bowing down and rolling all over the ground in abject horror...I a talking about saying simply what everyone else did...had I known the real story, I would not have vote that way. This is an off the hook statement she could have made, and has NOT...why? Because it would be untrue.

5. Her health care plan. Not enough...and she of ALL people should know better. Oh wait..silly me..I forgot how much money she is taking from special interests in that regard.

6. Her plan for Iraq....sad

and finally, a last comment...I will say this again....

I have known men like Bill Clinton all my life (and so have you ladies)...he will NEVER let her win this thing. Wait for it. It is called raging, massive EGO. Think long and hard how well you all THINK he will accept being first lady.

Not...gonna...happen.

OK...I am having a crappy day....fire away...I am going for ice cream...Greaters...butter pecan and cookie dough...in a homemade waffle cone that might still be slightly warm.

... echo of what I'm hearing from many (strike that: most) of my Gen Y and Gen X women friends.

- Dave

and dammit...I want to see a woman reach the white house, but not this way. And not by capitulating. That plays too close to the hand of stereotype.

sigh...it is frustrating.

... is that it is very realistic for the right woman, now.

- Dave

She projects herself okay, but the other half of the job which entails projecting ideas/images that appeal to others, not so much.

Young people tend to respond to the latter, imho.

... still youthful and hopeful, albeit seasoned and experienced enough in the political arena to understand that policy wonkishness matters.

If she were a Frosted Mini Wheat, she'd appeal to neither side of me.

- Dave

lol, and I see her as a Bush apologist. I can wait for another woman president.

Still, I'm glad she's running. The run will move this country forward even if the coronation does not.

I agree with your points.

- Dave

But, whatever. Whatever gets kids out is fine with me. My kids back Edwards and, they came to that conclusion before I did. They're always out ahead of me. lol

Modern moms rock!

- Dave

last January in D.C.

... GREAT PIC, MOM!

:hug:

- Dave

of either generation. There might be a lot of sociological influences that divide the voters by generation but that has to be one of the dumbest ones.

... suggest a very different generational outlook on staying with a cheater.

- Dave

Several weeks ago, I saw a female pollster-pundit on some TV show...Tweety or KO. They talked about the split among women, and it is not a generational thing. When the interviewer tried to speculate about the reason why some women were not supporting HRC, the pollster quickly said: "Oh, it's the war." She went on to say that K-L really put off many women who might have given Clinton a good look.

I wonder why the MSM is not mentioning how important the war is? Oh, never-mind...we all know why we can't talk about the war.

Now we understand that O and Edwards are not pure on this issue either, but Clinton doesn't want to deal with her bellicose attitude at all.

Maine-iacs rule ... Maine reminded me a lot of WV.

: )

That's a very interesting perspective. Thanks for throwing that into the mix.

- Dave

My town of 600 people sits about 60 miles from the Canadian border. I am not a pundit but just a reader dependent on dialup. In a discussion about the General Election at Kos on 1/26/2006, I wrote the following. Your question sent me looking through my files, and here it is:



Obama lacks credentials but his opposition to the war will mean that he can raise the issue.

Oh yeah, my sister settled in WVA. Second most tree covered state in the union...Maine ranks first.

... thank you for sharing!

Even the stark contrast in housing in Maine reminded me of WV. The people there felt very familiar.

Where in WV did your sis settle? Does she like it?

"Oh yeah, my sister settled in WVA. Second most tree covered state in the union...Maine ranks first"

How does it do in - ahem - "weed" production? WV would be the 4th largest producer in the world, if it were a separate nation.

:rofl:

As for your town's size: that's about the size of my hometown (where we lived until I was 16). Beautiful property, in a narrow valley, with a creek running thru the property.

As for your town's proximity to Canada: we used to do beer runs to the duty free store just across the Canadian border when I was in college in MA. The excess cases more than paid for each trip when we sold them in the dorms.

; )

- Dave

My sister lives in Morgantown.

I kinda think of these two states (not Morgantown) as similar in that we live in a constant economic down-turn to the point where it is difficult to know when the rest of country hits a recession. My life in DogPatch USA. Although it is so beautiful here, I can't imagine leaving for long, and never in the summer.

... is an eclectic town, and close enough to Pittsburgh to get to *some* culture.

"I kinda think of these two states (not Morgantown) as similar in that we live in a constant economic down-turn to the point where it is difficult to know when the rest of country hits a recession."

Coal is in the midst of an oil-driven boom right now. The area where I grew up is definitely in an economic expansion. But 30 minutes in any direction...

"My life in DogPatch USA. Although it is so beautiful here, I can't imagine leaving for long, and never in the summer."

The lure of the mountains grows stronger the longer I'm away.

- Dave

They're making a more thorough, balanced judgment.

She is pretty in touch with things for her age group. She went to Kerry rallies in 2004 and was a huge JK/JE supporter and has already been to her first anti-war march. I'm proud of her and although Clinton is not my first choice I try not to impose my views on her too much. I want her to read and explore and make her own decisions.

She sounds like quite the little wonk in the making!

: )

- Dave

I think she has an amazing future ahead of her in public service. She wants to be a high school history teacher.

I had a subscription to TIME and Newsweek when I was 8, so I can relate!

; )

As for being a history teacher: wow. Awesome! I started out in History in college, switched to Government. Someday, I'd like to teach history and civics in high school.

- Dave

... gender/generation brackets?

- Dave

Why would I vote for a woman who is a pro-corporate DLCer?

It's refreshing to have a woman speaking authoritatively in the debates and being taken seriously as a candidate. I can remember Geraldine Ferraro.

But I don't "identify" with Hillary or "that woman" - they're individuals to me, and their personal lives have no bearing on my political allegiances.

After tonight, this Kucinich fan will surely vote for Edwards in the Texas primary.

... and - wow - you can remember Ferraro?

: )

- Dave

:)

Have always been interested in politics, thanks to a father who is. I was the only kid in kindergarten who knew who Caspar Wineberger was.

I got the bug by kindergarten too - politically-active parents (the whole extended family, really).

Newsweek and TIME subscriptions by the time I was 8.

: )

How'd you find out about DU?

- Dave

back in 2004, before the election, when I was living in the UK.

Huge Anglophile here.

; )

- Dave

why would you assume LSE of all places?

or someone who seems more in touch with it or closer to it. On average, I think I'm more likely to feel that a 36 year old woman speaks "my language" than a 70 year old man all things being reasonably equal in terms of basic political worldview.

... and welcome to DU!

- Dave