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Without screaming at me (gulp) can I get some responses to this concern:

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:41 AM
Original message
Without screaming at me (gulp) can I get some responses to this concern:
Yes, I'm an Edwards supporter. But I don't "hate" other candidates. In fact, there are many reasons to deeply respect Obama. If he is the nominee, then I will start thinking about him and him alone. We're not there yet, but this is one of the big concerns / questions I have:

I have yet to see or hear anything of policy substance from Obama, and I'm genuinely looking forward to getting some of that.

I find him to be charming, brilliant and an outstanding and inspiring speaker with the characteristics of a leader who would represent us well in the world.... as long as all that can be combined with actual substantive policy that reflects real change.

It's why I've supported John Edwards. Because I don't have to look far to hear him say point blank: here is the policy issue, here is what I want to do about it step by step, here is what my plan will cost, and here is how I plan to pay for it.

To me --- THAT --- is what it takes to be a good presidential candidate. I really want to start hearing concrete specifics for radical change coming from Obama, with details. I'm already growing tired of the vacuous emotionalism. If I keep hearing the word "change" totally disconnected from any concrete specific plans for what that change will look like I'm gonna get frustrated really fast.

I sure hope his idea of a meaningful change isn't just electing a person of color. Because quite frankly that's not a good enough reason to vote for the next president of the united states. I really think he is capable of great ideas... I just want to hear them frankly and clearly.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. Bingo!
I've been thinking this all along.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. Not a chance that you'll hear anything like that.
You wrote: "I really want to start hearing concrete specifics for radical change coming from Obama, with details. "

He's not a radical, and his changes are evolutionary, not revolutionary or radical. He, like Clinton, is the the center of the Democratic Party, and that's why they are leading.

He's not going to win with specifics, IMO.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. We are beyond the point where "evolutionary" change amounts to any change.
We're past that tipping point. The only thing that will amount to change is radical change.

Now is the time for big ideas. And before you go all cynical, I encourage you to take a look at history and see that history is full of those "times" when evolutionary change couldn't get the job done, and the climate was ripe for and deeply in need of radical change.

Labor revolution leading to child labor laws, workplace safety and the wagner act
The depression, leading to the new deal
The civil rights movement

And so on...

We're at one of those points in history where the country needs radical change.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. I agree. There will be little change.
There will be no "big" ideas from either the Obama or Clinton administration. The biggest change is that we get Bush out.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. go to his website
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 08:35 AM by cali
there are specifics there on virtually everything- and he often speaks to these specifics as well. It's a myth that he doesn't. Just as it's myth that Edwards does nothing but. I've read all the stump speeches as well as listened to them. It's instructional.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I will do that (again.) I wish I could hear what you've heard him say...
...it must not be in the debates because it certainly wasn't there. :(
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Here is the debate transcript - you will find some specifics if you read
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 09:17 AM by MH1
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=4092530

A few examples:

* rebuild a nuclear nonproliferation strategy (he refers to a bill he worked on with Lugar to improve interdiction of potentially nuclear materials.)
* he says it "would take about four years for us to lock down the loose nuclear weapons"
* make a "commitment to work with the Russians to reduce our own nuclear stockpiles"
* Social Security: what we need to do is to raise the cap on the payroll tax so that wealthy individuals are paying a little bit more into the system. Right now, somebody like Warren Buffet pays a fraction of 1 percent of his income in payroll tax, whereas the majority of the audience here pays payroll tax on 100 percent of their income.
* Health Care: CLINTON: You mandate parents to have health care for children. OBAMA: That's exactly right.
* Open government: "part of the change that's desperately needed is to enlist the American people in the process of self-government." (okay that's not very specific but at least he mentioned this important issue - the others didn't as far as I heard. And in context I have a pretty good idea what he means.)
* Iraq: "What we have to do is to begin a phased redeployment to send a clear signal to the Iraqi government that we are not going to be there in perpetuity."

That's only going about halfway through.

Given the style and conduct of these debates, I think those are some good specifics Obama put out. I think the others did as well.

I think you are wrong to say Obama is not giving specifics. It seems to me that you didn't look very hard, or there is something clouding your vision.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. See I don't define any of those as "specifics" - but I will have to write more detail later
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 05:48 AM by Political Heretic
...at work.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. I did..
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 08:46 AM by sendero
.... and he does have some detailed proposals that are worth the time for everyone to peruse.

Click on the top banner to cut through all the dunning.

His site is somewhat of a contrast to the speeches I've heard, he really does get into specific on his web ISSUES pages.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. They are playing to there strength
With Obama it is his charm and the fact that he would be the first African American and with Hillary it is her inevitability and the first woman.
In there strategy they feel that the less said about substance the less chance of truing people away from them.
With Edwards he has none of that and so his strategy must be on substance in the hope of gaining support from his polices.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. lol my god.... electing a president is SUPPOSED to be about POLICY
...not being a powerful woman or being charming. :(
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. sorry, wrong
electing a President has little to nothing to do with policy. it has to do with leadership and the ability to react to changes in the world while maintaining a worldview you share.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. You noticed that too..
... he talks a lot about HOW he is going to do things and very little about what he is actually planning to do.

Unfortunately, the electorate seems to like hearing the "how" part, perhaps because they have little faith in the "what" from any politician.
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Wanna buy a house from a builder who keeps talking about "how" he's gonna build your house and not
a word about "what" your house is gonna look like.
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
8. You must have a set of criteria you're not revealing
"I don't have to look far to hear him say point blank: here is the policy issue, here is what I want to do about it step by step, here is what my plan will cost, and here is how I plan to pay for it.

To me --- THAT --- is what it takes to be a good presidential candidate."

This certainly defines Dennis Kucinich.

I'm not saying it doesn't define John Edwards, but if what you said is equally applicable to at least Edwards AND Kucinich, then, THAT (alone) is NOT what it takes to be a good presidential candidate.

So, what separates them?
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Gravitas.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Woo. n/t
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
13. Policy
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 08:58 AM by alcibiades_mystery
Yes, it should be about policies (and the capacity to implement them)

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

Click on the Issues tab and explore. Laziness is no excuse.
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WA98296 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
14. Agreeing.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
16. I share your concern
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michiganbuckeye1970 Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
18. Video killed the policy debate
The average voter is not interested in hearing explanations of how a policy will work (and probably would not be able to comprehend it anyway). Lest we forget the lessens learned from the last two campaigns involving *. The seemingly most likable person wins. You need to be able to reduce your policy goals into short sentences. Because of the blah weather yesterday, I spent the day watching the candidates speak on CSPAN. Almost to a person, there isn't a great deal of substance. Even in the Q/A sessions the candidates put on there is little in terms of real details.

I think in the comparison to Obama, Clinton is being hurt not because voters are making the conscious decision to reject her, but because Obama is a better speaker. He has a real talent for giving a speech. While he is no where near as good or effective as a speaker as Bill was in his prime, he is much better than our last two candidates. Unfortunately, Hillary is just not particularly good at speaking. I'm guessing her strength is more behind the scenes. You need to be a sales person in this type of election, and she is more of an operations person.

I like Hillary but I want to win this time around. Obama looks like the candidate best suited for this. The Republicans will go after him in a way that he cannot even imagine, but I think as long as he has a team in place to respond quickly, he'll be ok. He just needs to keep that easy sense of humor and stay positive and he'll do fine.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Though I supported Gore & Kerry & didn't need to like them, charisma is really important...
and in the charisma department, Hillary may score even lower than Kerry.

Winning is the first thing, therefore it is the most important.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
19. If you're looking for "radical change," don't look to any presidential candidates.
Not a slur against any of them specifically, but in general, yeah, don't get your hopes up.

The national economy has become a shaky shell-game with warfare/warfare-preparation at the core of our financial stability. In other words, if "Peace on Earth" actually happens, you'll be paying $321.09 for a Big Mac and riding a bicycle through snowstorms because the prices for gasoline...well, let's just say neither of us are Rockefellars...and we'd need to be, if we wanted to tank up...unless some enterprising wet-work specialist manages to whack out whoever came up with that "Peace" business, so America can get its war machine chugging again and revive our chimera-economy.

Plus, don't forget the trillions of US dollars/Treasury Bonds (read: they buy our debt to stabilize their own currency) that are currently being held by our good friends in China and Singapore. Name for me, please, any or all reputable economic blueprints that involve massive disbursement of unimaginable debt to nation/states which are not exactly our best pals...but only after eviscerating most of our heavy manufacturing and industry (in order to make those pesky union people go away, don'tcha know), followed by the deliberate transformation of the national economic concept into a "Service" economy that creates/manufactures/innovates nothing, and requires citizens to spend their devaluated dollars and go into credit-card debt buying shit they don't actually need...

This is what The End Of The World is going to sound like, possibly.

China: "We want our money back. And we're pegging the yuan to the euro. Eat shit and die."

That's just page one. No single president and no one election is going to come within even a parsec of dealing with what has become our established economic/social infrastructure...one that pays a few people really well, thus making them very powerful, which allows them to make sure the system stays as-is, lather rinse repeat. P.S. That comes eventually to involve media ownership, bullshit passed off as "news," ecological devastation, fundamentalism here and abroad fueled by a frayed and defunded social fabric where good schools are relics and health care is whatever you can afford at CVS.

I've been trying to argue that we have to look at this from a generational perspective. Ten elections, twenty, my lifetime gone and done before a dent is made, and that's that.

It sucks, but there is no alternative...and right now, no one president or one election will bring anything even remotely close to "radical change," because if you've heard the name of a politician, it means they're wired in, on board, and down with the program.

This shit is being held together with spit and baling wire right now...it is so comprehensively fucked up that expectations for "change" seem laughably naiive...but...

"You did this because you believed deeply in the most American of ideas – that in the face of impossible odds, people who love this country can change it." - Sen. Obama, Iowa post-caucus speech

Yeah, that too. It's true. True as anything you can imagine. But he ain't gonna get it done, not in one election or with two terms. It's not his fault, because the problems that have metastasized all through our country were well-entrenched before he ever talked to his kindergarten teacher about the office he's running for.

But it's a start...and a damned fine ideal to dedicate a life of work to.

Beats the alternative, anyway.

:toast:
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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
20. Try this for starters..
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

I would start there, and maybe then if you have questions come back to this forum and start up a discussion.

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cynthia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I beg to differ
I think a candidate has to SAY something substantial to make me want to do the research of reading volumes on their website or on issue sheets.

What I am hearing from Obama is too much showmanship, not enough substance. And when he has leaked a little in the direction of substance, I am appalled to hear right wing talking points.

Sorry, I'm listening and he is not inspiring me to read his stuff.
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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. You weren't asking for information either
THe OP was. Not sure I feel compelled to sit here and do someone else's homework for them. If they would like to know about a candidate, they do some research, and not just rely on other people to do it for them.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. That's it exactly! K&R
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. That sounds right.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. His Illinois Senate record is really impressive.
Lots of stuff for the poor - even juvenille delinquents who usually fall through the cracks.

He and Edwards are both looking out for the little guy. Hillary too. Just in different ways.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
26. IMHO Edwards has the ideal combination of populism and policy specificity.
I value the latter, but I hope he continues to hammer on the former.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
29. His website will have position papers, & he wrote two books (written by himself, that is)
Let us know what you find out -- there's lots of material!

Hekate

Edwards-Obama 2008
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Here's what I found out - I'm less impressed than when I started :(
Edited on Tue Jan-08-08 02:10 PM by Political Heretic
First of all, I have a problem with idea that in order to find out that a candidate actually has substantive policy plans (plans, not just stands, but actually plans detailing how they will accomplish what they stand for) you should have to go sift through a website as a first source.

I should be hearing policy concrete specifics from the candidate's mouth, then go to a web site to read the hyper-technical details, not just hear vacuous verbage about "hope."

Obama right now is reminding me of the episode of the West Wing where the President decides he wants to announce in the state of the Union that he will direct the government to cure cancer by the end of the decade. One of his staff explains why that is a stupid idea: "Did he find a cure for cancer? Because if he did, I think that would be interesting. But he didn't. He WANTS to cure cancer. You know what my response would be? Great! Me too. So now what?"

That's how I end up feeling about Obama. Look at these side by side examples:

Here is the information from Obama's website on the issue of Poverty:


The Problem

Poverty Rising: There are nearly 37 million poor Americans. Most Americans living in poverty work, but still cannot afford to make ends meet.

Minimum Wage is Not Enough: Even when a parent works full-time earning minimum wage and EITC and food stamps are factored into their income, families are still $1,550 below the federal poverty line because of the flat-lined minimum wage.
Barack Obama's Plan
Expand Access to Jobs

* Help Americans Grab a Hold of and Climb the Job Ladder: Obama will invest $1 billion over five years in transitional jobs and career pathway programs that implement proven methods of helping low-income Americans succeed in the workforce.
* Create a Green Jobs Corps: Obama will create a program to directly engage disadvantaged youth in energy efficiency opportunities to strengthen their communities, while also providing them with practical skills in this important high-growth career field.
* Improve Transportation Access to Jobs: As president, Obama will work to ensure that low-income Americans have transportation access to jobs. Obama will double the federal Jobs Access and Reverse Commute program to ensure that additional federal public transportation dollars flow to the highest-need communities and that urban planning initiatives take this aspect of transportation policy into account.
* Reduce Crime Recidivism by Providing Ex-Offender Supports: Obama will work to ensure that ex-offenders have access to job training, substance abuse and mental health counseling, and employment opportunities. Obama will also create a prison-to-work incentive program and reduce barriers to employment.

Make Work Pay for All Americans

* Expand the Earned Income Tax Credit: Obama will increase the number of working parents eligible for EITC benefits, increase the benefits available to parents who support their children through child support payments, increase benefits for families with three or more children, and reduce the EITC marriage penalty, which hurts low-income families.
* Create a Living Wage: Obama will raise the minimum wage and index it to inflation to make sure that full-time workers can earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs such as food, transportation, and housing.
* Provide Tax Relief: Obama will provide all low and middle-income workers a $500 Making Work Pay tax credit to offset the payroll tax those workers pay in every paycheck. Obama will also eliminate taxes for seniors making under $50,000 per year.

Strengthen Families

* Promote Responsible Fatherhood: Obama will sign into law his Responsible Fatherhood and Healthy Families Act to remove some of the government penalties on married families, crack down on men avoiding child support payments, and ensure that payments go to families instead of state bureaucracies.
* Support Parents with Young Children: Obama will expand the highly-successful Nurse-Family Partnership to all 570,000 low-income, first-time mothers each year. The Nurse-Family Partnership provides home visits by trained registered nurses to low-income expectant mothers and their families.
* Expand Paid Sick Days: Today, three-out-of-four low-wage workers have no paid sick days. Obama supports guaranteeing workers seven paid sick days per year.

Increase the Supply of Affordable Housing

* Create an Affordable Housing Trust Fund: Obama will create an Affordable Housing Trust Fund to develop affordable housing in mixed-income neighborhoods.
* Fully Fund the Community Development Block Grant: Obama will fully fund the Community Development Block Grant program and engage with urban leaders across the country to increase resources to the highest-need Americans.

Tackle Concentrated Poverty

* Establish 20 Promise Neighborhoods: Obama will create 20 Promise Neighborhoods in areas that have high levels of poverty and crime and low levels of student academic achievement in cities across the nation. The Promise Neighborhoods will be modeled after the Harlem Children's Zone, which provides a full network of services, including early childhood education, youth violence prevention efforts and after-school activities, to an entire neighborhood from birth to college.
* Ensure Community-Based Investment Resources in Every Urban Community: Obama will work with community and business leaders to identify and address the unique economic development barriers of every major metropolitan area. Obama will provide additional resources to the federal Community Development Financial Institution Fund, the Small Business Administration and other federal agencies, especially to their local branch offices, to address community needs.
* Invest in Rural Areas: Obama will invest in rural small businesses and fight to expand high-speed Internet access. He will improve rural schools and attract more doctors to rural areas.


That's nice. The chief good thing there is minimum wage indexed to inflation. But now, contrast that with John Edwards on the issue of Poverty:



A National Goal: End Poverty Within 30 Years

"Restoring our moral authority means leading by example and making clear that the hard challenges don't frighten us. There is no better opportunity than the challenge of poverty – the great moral issue of our time." -- John Edwards

In a speech at the National Press Club, former Sen. John Edwards called poverty "the great moral issue of our time" and challenged our country to cut it by a third in a decade and end it within 30 years. To get there, he has proposed major new initiatives to reward work, break up high-poverty neighborhoods, help families save, and encourage families to act responsibly. In his vision of a "Working Society," everyone who is able to work will be expected to work and rewarded for working. Edwards also called on communities to discourage the reckless behavior that threatens the future of many young people.

End Poverty by 2036: Edwards believes that ending poverty should be a goal our nation actively pursues. A national goal will rally support for the cause and help us measure our progress. In 1999, Tony Blair announced a 20-year goal to end child poverty in Great Britain and he has already reduced child poverty by 17 percent. Today, Edwards called for a national effort to:

* Cut poverty by one third within a decade, lifting 12 million Americans out of poverty by 2016.
* End poverty within 30 years, lifting 37 million Americans out of poverty by 2036.

Reform the Poverty Measure: The poverty measure excludes necessities like taxes, health care, child care and transportation. It also fails to count some forms of aid including tax credits, food stamps, Medicaid, and subsidized housing. The National Academy of Science has recommended improvements that would increase the count of people in poverty by more than 1 million. Edwards believes we need to measure poverty honestly, evaluate our performance, and hold politicians accountable for policies that change the number of people suffering hardship. He supports revisions along the lines recommended by NAS.


Creating a Working Society

Edwards has outlined a Working Society initiative to lift 12 million Americans out of poverty in a decade and beat poverty over the next 30 years. In the Working Society, everyone who is able to work hard will be expected to work and, in turn, be rewarded for it. The initiative includes major new policies in the areas of work, housing, education, debt and savings, and family responsibility.
Rewarding Work:

* Make Work Pay: Edwards will increase the reward for working by raising the minimum wage to at least $9.50 an hour by 2012 and then indexing it, tripling the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) for adults without children and cutting the EITC marriage penalty. In 2001, a $1 increase in the minimum wage alone would have lifted an estimated 900,000 people out of poverty.
* Create One Million Stepping Stone Jobs: Every American should have the chance to work their way out of poverty, but some willing workers cannot find jobs because of where they live, a lack of experience or skills, or other obstacles, like a criminal record. Edwards will create a million short-term jobs to help individuals move into permanent work.
* Create Opportunity in Rural America: Nearly 90 percent of America's poorest counties are rural. Edwards will invest more in rural community colleges, link training to actual business needs, and support rural small business centers.
* Strengthen Labor Laws: Union membership can be the difference between a poverty-wage job and middle-class security. Federal law promises workers the right to choose a union, but the law is poorly enforced, full of loopholes, and routinely violated by employers. Edwards supports the Employee Free Choice Act to give workers a real choice in whether to form a union.
* Enforce Workplace Protections: To help protect workers, Edwards will create a new Labor taskforce to target the industries with the worst abuses of minimum wage and overtime laws. He will step up enforcement of the misclassification of employees as independent contractors and strengthen workplace safety rules.


Overhaul Housing Policy:

* Create a Million New Housing Vouchers: Our current housing policies concentrate low-income families together, isolating willing workers from entry-level jobs and children from good schools. Edwards will create a million vouchers over five years to help low-income families move to better neighborhoods. At the same time, he will phase out housing projects that tie families to certain locations and are often lower quality and more expensive than private sector alternatives.
* Revitalize Devastated Neighborhoods: Edwards believes that it is better to invest in struggling neighborhoods than abandon them. He will reform and expand the HOPE VI program to replace dilapidated housing in areas of concentrated poverty.

Fight Abusive Lenders and Help Working Families Save:

* Create New Work Bonds: Edwards proposed a new tax credit to help low-income, working Americans save for the future. The credit would match savings up to $500 per year.
* Expand Access to Bank Accounts: As many as 28 million Americans don't have bank accounts. Edwards will subsidize bank accounts for working families.
* Defend Homeowners against Predatory Mortgages and Foreclosure: Edwards will pass a strong national law to prohibit the worst abuses in the mortgage market. The law will strengthen underwriting standards to ensure that borrowers receive affordable loans suited to their means and reach non-bank lenders and mortgage brokers. To help the estimated 2.2 million families already facing foreclosure, Edwards will create a Home Rescue Fund to help families get into more affordable mortgages and let families shed excess mortgage debt that exceeds their home's value through bankruptcy.

* Protect Families from Abusive Financial Products: Families need someone on their side to help them get a fair deal from lenders and investment companies. Edwards will create a new Family Savings and Credit Commission to protect consumers. It will review all financial services products marketed to consumers and oversee all types of financial institutions, whether chartered under federal or state law.
* Limiting Irresponsible Credit Card Practices: Edwards will restore balance in the credit card market through a Borrower's Security Act that creates a late payment grace period, limits penalty interest rates to new purchases, and ends the practice of universal default.
* Banning the Most Abusive Payday Loans: After the Pentagon concluded that exploitive payday loans undermined military readiness, Congress capped interest rates on payday and other loans to military families at 36 percent, a cutoff that many states use to prevent loan sharking. Edwards will extend this cap to all payday loans, which now average over 300 percent APR. He will also encourage states, local non-profits and responsible lenders to offer low- or no-interest emergency loans.



Strengthening Our Schools:

* Strengthen Public Schools: Edwards proposed expanding access to preschool programs, investing more in teacher pay and training to attract good teachers where we need them most, and strengthening high schools with a more challenging curriculum.
* Promote Economic Diversity: Our nation has two school systems, segregated by race and economic status. While not a substitute either for racial integration or improving schools in every neighborhood, Edwards will promote economic diversity within school districts and across district lines by giving bonuses to middle-class schools enrolling low-income students and double current federal magnet schools funding to attract middle-class suburban students to high-poverty urban neighborhoods.
* Create Second-Chance Schools for High School Dropouts: As many as one-third of all students drop out of school, and the rates are even worse for poor and minority students. Large majorities of recent dropouts regret their decision. Edwards will create second-chance schools to help former dropouts get back on track.
* Expand College Opportunity: Edwards will enact a College for Everyone program to pay public-college tuition, books and fees for students who agree to work part-time during their first year at a school. Additional student aid can make the greatest difference in the first year of college.


Support Responsible Families:

* Encourage and Reward Responsibility from Fathers: Welfare reform required mothers to work and helps them find jobs, but it failed to do the same for fathers. Edwards will help fathers find work, require them to help support their children, and increase child support collections by more than $8 billion over the next decade and use those payments to benefit children.
* Fight Teen Pregnancy: The U.S. has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the industrialized world. Edwards believes we should have more support for teenagers struggling to beat the odds.
* Home Visits for New Parents: Home visits improve prenatal health and the quality of care-giving after birth. Children receiving nurse visits are cognitively more advanced, have fewer behavioral problems, and are less likely to be abused or neglected. John Edwards will invest in home visits by registered nurses to low-income new parents, providing matching grants to states to serve 50,000 families.
* Invest in Family Literacy: Thirty million American adults have very limited literacy skills; the children of functionally illiterate parents are twice as likely to be illiterate themselves. John Edwards will restore funding for family literacy programs, which address the educational needs of both parents and children, and give them the support they deserve.

Recent Articles About Ending Poverty

Edwards Unveils New Policies For Fighting Widespread Hunger Among America's Families
Nov 21, 2007
Edwards Statement On Growing Problem Of Hunger In America
Nov 19, 2007
Edwards Statement On New Census Data On Poverty In America
Aug 28, 2007
Fighting For One America Tour - Work & Responsibility
Aug 15, 2007
On Day Three Of "Fighting For One America" Tour, Edwards Outlines Plan To Reward Work And Help Iowa Families Get Ahead
Aug 15, 2007
Upon Conclusion Of Road To One America Tour, Edwards Challenges Bush To Visit Impoverished Areas Of The Country
Jul 19, 2007
Building One America with Healthy Families and Communities
Jul 18, 2007
As "Road To One America" Tour Continues, Edwards Unveils Plan To Promote Economically Diverse Schools
Jul 17, 2007
Building One America By Creating Opportunity
Jul 17, 2007
Building One America By Rewarding Work
Jul 16, 2007
Building One America Starts in New Orleans
Jul 15, 2007
Edwards Announces "Road To One America" Tour As Part Of His Campaign To End Poverty In America
Jul 9, 2007
Giving A Raise To Millions Of Working Familes
Jul 2, 2007
Edwards Calls For Minimum Wage Increase As Part Of Plan To Build One America
Jul 2, 2007
More Than Just Talk
May 8, 2007
It was a nice moment. The sky was filled with thick, dark clouds and a monsoonlike storm was on its way, but there was the presidential candidate, John Edwards, in work boots, jeans and a navy blue shirt, talking with a handful of neighborhood people gathered outside a house that was being built in the Ninth Ward.
Ending Poverty In America Within A Generation
Mar 15, 2007


Now when I read those two side by side, I do not feel like Obama has the same level of depth to his plan. CAn't you see a difference?

Another example is Civil Rights. From Obama's site:


The Problem

Pay Inequity Continues: For every $1.00 earned by a man, the average woman receives only 77 cents, while African American women only get 67 cents and Latinas receive only 57 cents.

Hate Crimes on the Rise: The number of hate crimes increased nearly 8 percent to 7,700 incidents in 2006.

Efforts Continue to Suppress the Vote: A recent study discovered numerous organized efforts to intimidate, mislead and suppress minority voters.

Disparities Continue to Plague Criminal Justice System: African Americans and Hispanics are more than twice as likely as whites to be searched, arrested, or subdued with force when stopped by police. Disparities in drug sentencing laws, like the differential treatment of crack as opposed to powder cocaine, are unfair.
Barack Obama's Plan
Strengthen Civil Rights Enforcement

Obama will reverse the politicization that has occurred in the Bush Administration's Department of Justice. He will put an end to the ideological litmus tests used to fill positions within the Civil Rights Division.
Combat Employment Discrimination

Obama will work to overturn the Supreme Court's recent ruling that curtails racial minorities' and women's ability to challenge pay discrimination. Obama will also pass the Fair Pay Act to ensure that women receive equal pay for equal work.
Expand Hate Crimes Statutes

Obama will strengthen federal hate crimes legislation and reinvigorate enforcement at the Department of Justice's Criminal Section.
End Deceptive Voting Practices

Obama will sign into law his legislation that establishes harsh penalties for those who have engaged in voter fraud and provides voters who have been misinformed with accurate and full information so they can vote.
End Racial Profiling

Obama will ban racial profiling by federal law enforcement agencies and provide federal incentives to state and local police departments to prohibit the practice.
Reduce Crime Recidivism by Providing Ex-Offender Support

Obama will provide job training, substance abuse and mental health counseling to ex-offenders, so that they are successfully re-integrated into society. Obama will also create a prison-to-work incentive program to improve ex-offender employment and job retention rates.
Eliminate Sentencing Disparities

Obama believes the disparity between sentencing crack and powder-based cocaine is wrong and should be completely eliminated.
Expand Use of Drug Courts

Obama will give first-time, non-violent offenders a chance to serve their sentence, where appropriate, in the type of drug rehabilitation programs that have proven to work better than a prison term in changing bad behavior.
Barack Obama's Record

Record of Advocacy: Obama has worked to promote civil rights and fairness in the criminal justice system throughout his career. As a community organizer, Obama helped 150,000 African Americans register to vote. As a civil rights lawyer, Obama litigated employment discrimination, housing discrimination, and voting rights cases. As a State Senator, Obama passed one of the country's first racial profiling law and helped reform a broken death penalty system. And in the U.S. Senate, Obama has been a leading advocate for protecting the right to vote, helping to reauthorize the Voting Rights Act and leading the opposition against discriminatory barriers to voting.


Wow - don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that pay equity is an important issue, as well as hate crimes. BUT HOW IN GODS NAME CAN YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE PROBLEM NOT INCLUDE ANY MENTION OF THE TOTAL ASSAULT AGAINST CIVIL RIGHTS BY THIS PRESIDENT? No mention of privacy betrayals. No mention of domestic spying. No mention of the loss of legal protections or due process. No mention of torture. No mention of "free speech zones" or the curtailment of the bill of rights. How is that possible after the seven years we've lived through??

Now contrast with John Edwards:


Protecting The Constitution And Respecting Our Freedoms

"We are not the country of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo. We are not the country of secret surveillance and government behind closed doors. We are Americans, and we're better than that." -- John Edwards

America must do whatever it takes to defeat terrorism, but securing a lasting victory will take moral as well as military strength. President Bush's failure to respect the Constitution and our commitment to the fundamental rule of law has badly damaged our security and our standing in the world. President Bush has sent a message that torture and other human rights violations are acceptable, creating a precedent of disregard for the law that is being exploited by terrorists and repressive governments across the world. We must restore our moral leadership in the world, and we should begin here at home. If we want to spread democracy abroad, we must strengthen democracy in America, including our constitutional freedoms and the rule of law.

Say No to Torture

The Bush-Cheney Administration has undermined our standing in the world and endangered our own troops by sanctioning the use of interrogation techniques long considered torture. Edwards will protect our troops and our values by upholding the Geneva Conventions anywhere American security forces—military or civilian—are engaged. He will issue an executive order setting clear guidelines for interrogations and prohibiting torture. He will also ban the shameful practice of outsourcing torture to other countries through "extraordinary rendition."

Restore Habeas Corpus and Shut Down Guantanamo

The Bush Administration has claimed the power to seize and indefinitely detain anybody it labels an "enemy combatant" with no due process and no lawyer, even if they were seized here in America. It built a prison at Guantanamo Bay outside the reach of our courts, creating a symbol that galvanizes our enemies and alienates our allies. As president, Edwards will shut down Guantanamo and work to resolve the status of the detainees, hundreds of whom have been held for years without being charged. He will also restore the writ of habeas corpus to reinstate judicial review of detention, rather than allow unchecked executive power.

Protect Americans' Privacy and Freedom

Our government should protect the privacy, communications, and personal records of Americans—not spy on them without court supervision as the Bush Administration has done. Edwards will end the warrantless wiretapping of Americans' phone calls and e-mails and the data-mining of Americans' communications and personal records, restoring judicial review to surveillance of American citizens. He rejects retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies. He will fix the Patriot Act by restoring important safeguards to the provisions most susceptible to abuse: the "sneak-and-peek" delayed-notice searches, National Security Letters, and the business and library records provisions. He will also end racial profiling by law enforcement.

Defend the Constitution

Edwards will end the practice of issuing presidential "signing statements" that claim the administration can ignore the law. He will respect the proper roles of the Congress and the courts. He will not shroud the actions of the White House in secrecy. He will not abuse the executive privilege to hide information from Congress and the courts. And he will not interfere with the professional judgment of attorneys at the Justice Department or impose a partisan agenda on their interpretation of the nation's laws and Constitution.


Edwards then has three separate pages of greater length detailing additional "in depth" focus plans dealing with civil rights issues facing African American, Latino American and Asian American populations, and another separate page of equal length detailing his specific plans for protecting civil fights of women.


That's what I mean when I say I'm struggling to find the substance with Obama. And I'm certainly not finding it any time he speaks. :(

Yell at me if you want, but I went from being kind of neutral and questioning about Obama to feeling very dissatisfied. :( I was sorta hoping after Iowa that maybe he would be a lot like Edwards... but I feel less like that now.


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kelligesq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Oh I think Obama will bring change, but not the kind we think
I posted on this and it was immediately locked for reasons not relevant.

Appears to me to be substantial references to authored books, etc...so

SHOCK: Obama & The New World Order, Trilateral Comm, Council on Foreign Relations

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:Fx8DSHq-3L0J:adere...

When Obama's advisers are neo-cons, lobbyists, etc. can we really expect him to bring the change THE PEOPLE are looking for, or will he bring the final coup de gras to the American dream for the elites.

Looks to me like he's with the elites



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