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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:25 PM
Original message
More rhetoric...
Cicero (46 BCE)
The supreme orator, then, is the one whose speech instructs, delights, and moves the minds of his audience. The orator is in duty bound to instruct; giving pleasure is a free gift to the audience, to move them is indispensable.

Source: Cicero, De optimo genere oratorum. Trans. H. M. Hubbell. De inventione/De optimo genere oratorum/Topica. Cambridge: Harvard UP, 1949. 1.3-4.

Quintilian (95 CE)
I cannot imagine how the founders of cities would have made a homeless multitude come together to form a people, had they not moved them by their skilful speech, or how legislators would have succeeded in restraining mankind in the servitude of the law had they not had the highest gifts of oratory. The very guiding principles of life, however intrinsically honourable they are, nevertheless possess more power to shape men’s minds when the brilliance of eloquence illumines the beauty of the subject. And so, although the weapons of eloquence are powerful for good or ill, it is unfair to count as evil something which it is possible to use for good.

Source: Quintilian, The Orator’s Education. Ed. and trans. Donald A. Russell. Cambridge: Harvard UP, 2001. II.xvi.9-10


Ralph Waldo Emerson (1837)
The poet, in utter solitude remembering his spontaneous thoughts and recording them, is found to have recorded that which men in crowded cities find true for them also. The orator distrusts at first the fitness of his frank confessions,—his want of knowledge of the persons he addresses,—until he finds that he is the complement of his hearers; that they drink his words because he fulfils for them their own nature; the deeper he dives into his privatest, secretest presentiment, to his wonder he finds this is the most acceptable, most public, and universally true. The people delight in it; the better part of every man feels, This is my music; this is myself.

Source: Ralph Waldo Emerson, “The American Scholar.” Nature, Addresses, and Lectures. Cambridge, MA: Belknap, 1971. Vol. 1 of The Collected Works of Ralph Waldo Emerson. Ed. Joseph Slater, et al. 6 vols. to date. 1971-. 63.
http://www.u.arizona.edu/%7Etkinney/pdf/handouts/definitions.pdf

Plato: Rhetoric is "the art of winning the soul by discourse."

...............More Rhetoric........

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."-- Dwight David Eisenhower, 1961

"Treaties, you see, are like girls and roses; they last while they last."-- Charles de Gaulle

The idea that a congressman would be tainted by accepting money from private industry or private sources is essentially a socialist argument."-- Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA)

"Capital punishment is our society's recognition of the sanctity of human life."-- Senator Orrin Hatch (R-UT)

"Our dreams must be stronger than our memories. We must be pulled by our dreams, rather than pushed by our memories."-- Jesse Jackson

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"You've got to work things out in the cloakroom, and when you've got them worked out, you can debate a little before you vote."-- Lyndon Baines Johnson

"The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were."
-- John Fitzgerald Kennedy

"The Republican nominee-to-be, of course, is also a young man. But his approach is as old as McKinley. His party is the party of the past. His speeches are generalities from Poor Richard's Almanac. Their platform, made up of left-over Democratic planks, has the courage of our old convictions. Their pledge is a pledge to the status quo--and today there can be no status quo."
-- John Fitzgerald Kennedy, 1960

"Democracy is no easy form of government. Few nations have been able to sustain it. For it requires that we take the chances of freedom; that the liberating play of reason be brought to bear on events filled with passion; that dissent be allowed to make its appeal for acceptance; that men chance error in their search for the truth."-- Robert F. Kennedy

"What is objectionable, what is dangerous about extremists, is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents."-- Robert F. Kennedy

"Perhaps a new spirit is rising among us. If it is, let us trace its movements and pray that our own inner being may be sensitive to its guidance, for we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close around us." --- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"The law may not be able to make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me."
-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
"I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality .... I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word."
-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"With public sentiment, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed."-- Abraham Lincoln

"Politics would be a helluva good business if it weren't for the goddamned people."--Richard M. Nixon

"I am not the problem. I am a Republican."-- J. Danforth Quayle, Republican Vice-President

"A tree is a tree. How many more do you have to look at?"-- Ronald Reagan, 1966 (opposing expansion of Redwood National Park

"The United Sates has much to offer the third world war.--- Ronald Reagan (speaking on what the US has to offer the Third World. He repeated this error nine times in the same speech.)

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes strong than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power."
-- Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"I have no color prejudices nor caste prejudices nor creed prejudices. All I care to know is that a man is a human being, and that is enough for me; he can't be any worse."--- Mark Twain

"They attack the one man with their hate and their shower of weapons. But he is like some rock which stretches into the vast sea and which, exposed to the fury of the winds and beaten against by the waves, endures all the violence."--- Virgil

“A politics that is not sensitive to the concerns and circumstances of people's lives, a politics that does not speak to and include people, is an intellectually arrogant politics that deserves to fail.” ---Paul Wellstone

“The future will not belong to those who sit on the sidelines. The
future will not belong to the cynics. The future belongs to those who
believe in the beauty of their dreams.”---Paul Wellstone
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well done!
With your permission, I'd like to link to this in _another thread_ on words.

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. go for it...
and thanks!
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Done.
And thank you for putting the time and effort into that incredible compilation.

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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. well done.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. You forgot Augustine, from On Christian Doctrine
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 06:47 PM by alcibiades_mystery
Augustine was, of course, a teacher of rhetoric (and general party animal) before his conversion. The early Christians hated rhetoric, considering it "mere sophism" and pagan contempt for the "one truth." Augustine puts forth a interesting argument to the Christians: Should not the righteous, too, have the ability to move people with speech? Why should we cede the art of persuasion to the wicked, Augustine asks.

The point, of course, is that rhetoric is not an evil in itself. Nor is great oratory. The anti-Obama camp is actually deploying the oldest criticism in the book: because somebody is a great speaker, he or she lacks substance. We've been trained to suspect this, so the argument has caught on with some of our less discerning brothers and sisters. It may be the oldest argument in Western culture; indeed, it may even found Western culture if we suppose Plato's critique of the sophists to be in any way foundational.

Of course, Plato (or really, Plato's version of Socrates) was wrong. :-)

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. well...I am just practicing...
the art of rhetoric...or stringing along some words in order to make a point. I was surprised that the word had such a tumultuous history..but I am unclear about another word that describes the use of words to inspire...here's some more definitions I found helpful in my rhetoric practice.

Aristotle: Rhetoric is "the faculty of discovering in any particular case all of the available means of persuasion."

Quintillian: "Rhetoric is the art of speaking well."

Francis Bacon: Rhetoric is the application of reason to imagination "for the better moving of the will."

Kenneth Duva Burke (May 5, 1897 – November 19, 1993) was a major American literary theorist and philosopher. Burke's primary interests were in rhetoric and aesthetics.

"Rhetoric is rooted in an essential function of language itself, a function that is wholly realistic and continually born anew: the use of language as a symbolic means of inducing cooperation in beings
that by nature respond to symbols."
"Wherever there is persuasion, there is rhetoric, and wherever there is rhetoric, there is meaning."

Andrea Lunsford: "Rhetoric is the art, practice, and study of human communication."

Francis Bacon (1561-1626): Advancement of Learning
The duty and office of rhetoric is to apply reason to imagination for the better moving of the will.


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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Ha
Don't even get me started on Kenneth Burke, or Andrea Lunsford (or Lisa Ede for that matter).

:-)
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rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. UC Berkeley Rhetoric Dept.
This thread sounds suspiciously like its source studied in the Rhetoric Dept. at the University of California, Berkeley campus.

"Rhetoric is the discovery of the available means of persuasion with regard to any subject."

Aristotle, Rhetoric, Book 1.

True or untrue? Conclusion valid or invalid?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Rhetoric is studied all over the United States
In fact, the sources cited here sound very little like what they study at Berkeley rhetoric, which is Lacan and feminist epistemology. :silly:
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rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thanks for Explanation
I have a B.A. and M.A. from the UC Berkeley Rhetoric Department. Didn't study any feminist studies or theory at all. Aristotle, Cicero, Quintilian, Chaim Perelman, Plato, Kenneth Burke, I.A. Richards, Wayne Booth, Stanley Fish, and others.

You got some business with that department? Take 1A or 1B and get a lousy grade?

I'm a little surprised at the nasty edge of your post, Mate.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Oh I wasn't being nasty
Just kidding around.

Love Berkeley rhetoric.

Cheers.
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rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. How Ironic
I catch your ironic drift, Mate. Interestingly, you didn't bother to refute my hypothesis about your 1A or 1B grades.

But I'll play along. Despite my studies in that department, "Lacan" epistemology escapes me. What do you mean?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I did not go to Berkeley, so I don't even know what 1B or 1A are
I was referring to Professors Silverman and Butler, specifically, but you would agree that Berkeley rhetoric has one of the leading feminist and queer studies programs in the nation, yeah?.

Now you're the one who's being nasty, though.

Seriously. Let's be friends.
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rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Things Change; Query
I'm cool with a discussion on the merits, of course.

I graduated from that department in 1975, and took my M.A. in 1977. I had no sense, from the first class I took in that department in 1972, until the mid-1980's, when people I knew there had finished their Ph.D.'s, that it was consciously a gay-oriented or feminist oriented department. I know a few lawyers who took degrees in that department in the early 1990's, who said nothing about either consideration.

We studied literature, poetry, political discourse and philosophical discourse, from the rhetorical perspective. Personally, I read a lot of Marx, Max Weber, Shakespeare, Kenneth Burke, and the ancients, and focused on learning argumentative writing.

If the department has the flavor you're suggesting, that's a recent development. Universities change, particularly Berkeley. By the way, I'm also a straight, married male in my mid-50's.

Why do you say the Rhetoric Department has that reputation? Is it based on any specific experience, essay, or professor?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. It's based on my understanding of the field
Berkeley rhetoric has been critical theory heavy since the early 1990's.

There's nothing wrong with that, either. It's a great program.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. no...just trying to make a point...
I'm woefully ignorant about all of this stuff....
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream."
Idiot-in-Chief
—LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000
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