After careful research...the term "shuckin' and jivin'" did NOT originate in Minstrel shows...

...apparently it originated in the black community itself.

Nonetheless, it does mean "going through the motions," ie, being lazy on the job. And it's not an expression I've often heard used in reference to somebody who WASN'T black.

So this would probably be the equivalent of using the word "Shylock" in reference to the campaign of a Jewish candidate--not an outright slur, but rather telling...

n/t

Because nobody ever used it as an excuse to murder Scotsmen (although, let's be fair, excuses were rarely needed way back when).

But "lazy" has certainly been a word used as an excuse for discrimination against blacks.

I mustae happen'd a least once inne history of thae warld...

"lazy", I've also heard in reference to Roma, Greeks, and Arabs... All could be taken as racist or ethno-biased but "lazy" is not exclusive either... I've met Japanese folks who consider gaijin "lazy"...

Just playing devil's advocate and not making any excuses for the aforementioned racist comment.

We're frugal.

(At least half of me knows that!) :evilgrin:

The other half likes to tip generously and publicly...damn me for coming from two conflicting ethnic steriotypes...

First Shucking and Jiving means "trying to appear as something special" or being pompous

If a Jewish candidate acted similarly I would refer to him as "Ongehblozzen" or all puffed up.

...it may have changed a bit over time.

Shuck: To try to shed your true image in favor of a false one.
Jive: Trying to adopt a new social status, pretending to be "all that"

Not a very nice Jewish character...a money shark. Shylock has become sort of a secondary word for loan shark. Again, one need not be Jewish to be a "shylock"...but the word "shylock" definitely does have somewhat antisemitic origins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shylock

Both the "pound of flesh" and "Hath a Jew not eyes..." lines are attributed to Shylock.

From Shakespeare's character in Merchant of Venice.

<http://www.shaksper.net> The Global Electronic Shakespeare Conference

They had a discussion of where Shakespeare derived the name but the search function is a pain in the butt.

That doesn't mean they're not racist.

Reminds me of the argument that black hip hop musicians are to blame for racist, black-face frat parties.

Second of all, I haven't seen any proof that minstrels shows originated in the black community--since black people, at the time of its origins, were still largely enslaved, and the stereotypes in use all had their origins in the dominant white community.

The only thing genuinely black about minstrel shows were the musical instruments--banjo, tambourine, etc--and maybe a LITTLE of the music. But that wasn't exactly borrowed--it was stolen wholesale.

White people used to rather watch white people in blackface perform black music than white people doing it.

Next you'll be saying rap, bump and grind.

Rap is a specific kind of music, a subset of hip hop.

And bumping and grinding is a kind of erotic dancing for people who don't know how to tango.

Why are you asking?

including me use the term to mean we're just messing around or kidding.

...maybe I should stop acting like such a know-it-all.

I have every idea it's a regional thing. I come from a town of 5,000 people in the mountains so it really isn't representative of what other people might do. It's a pretty backward, one horse hitching post place. :D

She's from rural Yadkin County, and says her good ole boy cousin and his friends say this. She does think the comment was rather... pointed.

I guess I'm pretty naive about these things. I truly never knew it was considered racist. I thought it was a southern thing because I've always heard white people use it talking about themselves.

it may very well not be racist if a group of whites used it to talk about themselves or their friends in a colloquial sense.

but for a prominent politician to use it to describe another black prominent politician -- stinks of a racist comment to me. at the very least, a very poor choice of words.

I don't like the way it sounds coming from a white person about a black person. I just never thought about it before and never used it in regards to a black person.

Way back when, beofre combines and such you harvested the corn with the husk on, palced it in the barn and later on in winter enerybody sat around and pulled the husks off(shucking it is called), and gossiped, jaw-boned or did some jivin.

So nothing racial at all and I cannot recall it as having ever been so until the urban black useage evolved to where it also meant you were putting someone on or lying to them. Bit even then it was not really racial, but morea classist thing.

And "nigger" is just a corruption of the Spanish word "negro" which means black,

Perfectly innocent.

:eyes:

because it does become racist when they take it out of context.

would be able to recite the dictionary!

okay thats stretching it a bit.

if no, what's your point? do you find yourself needing to use the term on a daily basis?

I just heard about it too.

Apparently some people are arguing it's not racist.

well this should be good....

so far in this thread i have not seen the CORRECT definition of the term...not the least bit surprising

it is in the thread but not in the OP

Could go back to original meaning, common meaning, or even a nonsensical insult. Intention matters.

i think it means the same thing regardless of whether it's meant to insult or describe a certain behavior -- to "shuck & jive" is a specific act.

whatever the case, if used by a white man to describe the actions of a black man, i would say it's unequivocally racist in nature.

on edit: any effort on the part of a white person to describe it otherwise is an attempt to apologize for racism.

funny that the OP says after "careful research"....:rofl: not so careful, as it turns out.

with a black person. When trying to say someone is shuckin & jivin the man, the white persosn should now say that that fellow is dancing and lying to the gentleman? You know this pc crap about who can use what terms and words and who 'owns' such and such word has entered into the ludicrouse and it begs the wuestion as just who the fuck is the 'Grammer-Linguistic' king who decides this shit.

Anyone who cannot tell when something is said derogatorily and when it is said commonly is an idiot or an over-sensitive person in serious need of professional help(Drs. Phil & Laura excepted).

If it is derogatory pile on, if it is not...shut the fuck up and let those people converse.

i don't even know where to start with you...:rofl:

go on wichya bad self!

since you feel so strongly about it, next time you're around a bunch of your black friends (cuz I'm sure you have so many) say something like "Man, that's crazy they way you were shuckin' & jivin' back there!"

then come on back here and let us know how it turned out, k!?!?



!!!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!!

has a father from Tobago and his mother came from the lowlands of South Carolina, and was raised in the Bronx. I goddam well know of what I speak we don't mince words and no subject has ever been off the table between us...that is why we are so close. I am damned well acquainted with the fact that words and phrases change meanings over time and distance. But I was under the impression that someone was actually trying to research the ORIGINS of the fucking thing. Bit the white, skinny assed touchy-feely nasal challenged self appointed guardians of all Balck people and the down trodden, hi-jacked the fucking thread!

he should be a perfect resource for you to find out both (a) the origins of the phrase, and (b) whether or not it is, or could be construed as racist for a white person to use it when describing the actions of a black person.

because while the thread is about the origins the reason it was started is to determine whether it's racist to use it. Why else would we be discussing it? Ergo, not hi-jacked.

slimeball druggie types, and punks of all colors who come up all smiles and buddy, buddy wantin this or that. Jim uses a word I forbid in my own house and have for over 40 years(he does not do so when visiting) when he uses the S&J. A long time ago it became sort of accepted that Jim would give a look if something didn't fit right that I said innocently, and I with him, yes all you litlle pastyfaced self appointed guardians of the helpless blacks, they do use derogatory terms about you just as often.

But my point is this, its context, its locale, and its the people involved that set the meanings of what is being said.

Once again, The shuckin and jinin provenance is fairly simple. As I said earlier. Shucking is the word fro removing the husks from ears of corn. 2-300 years ago and up until machines that shelled the corn as it was havested were invented(around the 1930's) the ears of corn were havested with the husks on, and then stored in the barns or cribs. LAter in the winter months the farmers sat around in the warm barns and shucked the corn and talked. Somewhere along the line it was common when asked what you were upto or some such "Oh jes sittin round shuckin' n jawbonin, or gossipin, or chinnin(there are more colloquilisms). It is a lead pipe certainty that the slaves used the phrase as well, ffor where else would they learn the language but on the plantations and the farms where such shuckin and chinnin took place? Now the jivin had to come MUCH later as its almost synonomous with teh early jazz era music scene. Sorta of a natural progression it seems to me to take a phrase that was common that meant sitting around doing something and gabbing, then move it over to cover sitting around and playing music and maybe dancing as well. At least that makes sense to me. Its adoption to street slang I'll leave to someone else to try and work out the lineage.

A s I mentioned Jim is very dark, and he looks a lot like Rosie Grier, size and face, me I am as large, and not much prettier, but once having auburn hair on my head, my skin is a wee bit light. Anyways now you have the image. The setting is a few years ago, not many after Jim and I met, we were in a cafe having coffee and someone we both new from separate sources stopped by and sat down. As the conversation progressed the guy just casually asked how the two of us, Jim and I, became friends, as we are and were then as well, cranky, grouchy, curmudgeons in young bodies(real good senses of humor mind you, but not to tolerant of jackassery). Well, before I could answer, Jim piped up, and with an absolutely straight face, looked the guy square in the eyes(which made him real nervous) and said, "Meet? He's my brother, the one the folks kept locked in the dark basement." The look on the guys face was priceless if I were an artist I would bet I could draw you a near perfect photograph of it, but couldn't have for about fifteen minutes then necause I have never laughed so hard in all my life.

Now that's gotta be waaaaaay more than you ever wanted to know...but all this jibberish about what is black and what is crap somehow brought that memory right up to the top.

That's how I was taught and it rather surprises me when I hear whites use this sorry defense.

I was raised by a Southern Belle mother who revolted against her racist upbringing big time (hell, she married a, a, a, CATHOLIC!). Among their circle, my grandparents were even pretty far ahead of their time.

Using any offensive language (cursing, racial/religious epithets) etc. was reserved for only the most intimate of situations. I won't say I never heard the "N" word, I heard it a lot from extended family--but to say it outside of the family, to anyone, regardless of color, was simply not "done"--and that's a major taboo, actually.

Most English speakers have many dialects and they go on and off automatically. I don't speak the same way to my child that I do to my husband, to either one as I speak to my co-wokers, or to strangers--like on DU.

I'm all for free expression, but the language of politics is not the same as the language of family or work or worship or business.

I have admired Cuomo for many, many years--but this was racist and stupid and he REALLY needs to apologize--and not the faux apology that numbskull at the Golf Channel offered Tiger Woods. He broke a taboo and he's a smart man--he should definitely have known better.

Now go back to where you came from, boy.

It seems, ironically, there's a whole lot of shuckin' and jivin' going on.

about Tiger Woods.

use when referring to themselves or other white people. If it is racist, and the origin might very well be, I've never heard it used in a racist way.

it's a term i've only ever heard black people use...
i've never heard a white person use the phrase but if they did in reference to a black person i would think it had a racist undertone to it

outside of the region I grew up in and then it was white people referring to themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuckin'_and_jivin'

"Shuckin' and jivin' (or shucking and jiving) is a slang term primarily used by African Americans. It refers to the speech and behavioral mechanisms adopted in the presence of an authority figure <1>. Shuckin' and jivin' usually involves clever lies and impromptu storytelling, used to one-up an opponent or avoid punishment <2>. Such behavior is believed to have originated in the era of slavery"

For a white to use it sounds pretty fucking racist to me.

whom. The wikipedia give present day useage and a very bad afterthought guess as to the origins. The blacks substituted the word jivin (jive by the way is a 20th century coined word) to replace jawing, chinnin, gossipin etc that were used in various regions.

History has a way of changing words and meanings. ( And I don't usually use Wiki as a reference) Last time I talked to racists I know-- like my father or brother-in-law-- shuckin' and jivin' was always used as derogatory term, often to differentiate between "blacks" and "niggers". These magnanimous racists have kindly decided that there is a difference.

I find that disgusting. And very, very wrong.

Cuomo was probably just accusing Obama of peeling corn.

Makes perfect sense.

:rofl: