From all the Obama and Clinton dust up, something has hit me and it seems in American society, sexism takes a back seat to racism. Now, I'm not suggesting one is worse than the other, only that it seems misogyny doesn't get the attention that racism does.

Look at our popular media culture, from slasher flicks to what is going on now, women seem to be taking a back seat instead of an equal seat.

If we have ANY CHANCE to overcome the monied forces that have consolidated their power to oppress, we MUST understand how the -isms have FAKED US OUT and pitted us against each other. See here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2713755

There is nothing TPTB fear more than our recognition of our common interests. They employ Rush, Sean, Glenn and the Savage, giving them carte blanche to divide us using SEXISM, COLOURISM, RACISM as their weapons.

I ask, at this point of this "thread's life," that anyone reading this POST THEIR FEELING AND UNDERSTANDING of how the -isms serve to separate us from that which serves our COLLECTIVE BEST INTERESTS. Please do read the whole thread and think about all the issues that have been raised. Do they resonate with YOU??? Have they given you something to think about??? Please don't be shy.

:wow:

Give it a rest.

He just meant that more people on the Earth had heard of the Beatles than Jesus - and he probably was right at that point of time.

we just choose not to say it. Plus, Lennon was making a statement and the word is appropriately used.

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there is no god, god is "dead", and/or you need to get over your childhood fantasies and think like a rational human being.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

does anything else need saying?

oh oh, something tells me I am going to get flammed

Listen to Terry's Gross's NPR program (Fresh Air) from yesterday:

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13

About 3/4 of the way through, an Iraqi women's advocate talks about how the war is affecting women. It is unbelievably bad. Women always get it worse than men do in war, and this situation in Iraq is no exception.

No flames, but educate yourself, hon.

Your presentation reveals your intent. :rofl:

while racists are portrayed as drooling idiots.

Yet, it's overlooked.

Just think if either of them said the equivalent in racist terms.

:mad:

Just treat everybody as inferior and all those claims of sexism and racism flush right down the toilet.

:hurts:

misogyny is a few steps behind, but neither is terribly close to 12 (or 1, depending on which way you count).

Look at all the snide "jokes" about "mAnn Coulter". Compare to the number of "Stepin Fetchit Thomas" or "Br'er Keyes" style references. (I.e., very few, thankfully.) So we've made only half the progress we could have.

But let me digress ...

We have made great strides in eliminating racism, but we should redouble our efforts to end all such corrosive ideologies, and sexism is certainly one of the deepest and most destructive. The effects of common purpose will reinforce all good outcomes -- that is, we will find it easier to fight MORE evils than fewer.

Why not strive to end them all?

We just have to stop limiting ourselves.

--p!

minds of male supremacists, they don't even deserve it, because dignity and respect is earned by manly, alpha-male traits, which by definition, women don't have. i'm certainly not saying that all man are out-and-out male supremacists, but there is a vestige of this animalistic social ordering system in human society that can not be denied, and sadly, there are almost as many women who subscribe to it as men.

Where would we find a black person arguing that blacks are indeed inferior and should keep to lower end jobs? Yet women have Phyllis Schafly, Ann Coulter, etc. out there arguing for the inferior position for their own gender!

at least not to the extent that they are willing to fight and kill for it, as men have been. and of course they have not been as willing to fight and kill to *deny* other people their dignity. in the world we live in, this 'passivity' shall we say, means that women get no respect.

every bit of suffering they got in life because of Eve's "original sin" (tempting Adam with the apple). ANYTHING to legitimize brutality against those of us who are less violent and aggressive by nature. :puke:

"and sadly, there are almost as many women who subscribe to it as men."

Black and Hispanic males are. 8.2% of black males between the ages of 25 - 29 are in prison. That's why racism has such a stench about it.

and none of the specifics of sexism. Check out "Hot Teacher" who violated her parole...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2668381

Men are simply more violent than woman (testosterone and all that) that's why there are more of them in prison. Women are beaten EVERY DAY and often law enforcement does NOTHING about the enslavement and imprisonment they endure. If you doubt it, then read this:

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200184637&sr=8-1

along with all of the reviews of the book. It might give you a different perspective on the situation.

Oh, and BTW; women make up 52% of the world's population, and yet the vast majority of the world's poor are women: http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/womenpoverty.html

thats rights! Us Caucasoids!

At least, according to the FBI-Website anyway...while Blacks/Hispanics make up 58% of the U.S. Jail population.

And just think, some Black lady at a library function had nerve to ask me if I would give up *the privileges of White-skin* if the given the chance.

I asked her?

If someone had spiked her V-8 she was drinking?

The question is why some people consider racism to be qualitiatively worse.

Racism is considered an important issue, but not because awarness of racism is intended to punish women.

and we are all products of that sexist society.

Therefore, sexism doesn't strike us as abnormal. :shrug:

or on death row. Not to mention prison rape which is so commonplace it is sometimes applauded.

I'm just saying that we (as a society) are much more blind to casual sexism than casual racism. The criminal justice system is an exception to this though.

sexist language.

Sad (and sickening), but true. :-(

DWF?

:evilgrin:

stand out.

that is our chance of being a victim of sexual assault/woman specific violence or an attempt at sexual assault/women specific violence in our lifetime. It USED to be 1 in 8...WAY back in 1992. We have come a long way baby ( do I need the sarcasm emoticon here?)

Our crime in the eyes of those who try every 2-3 minutes of every hour of every day to harm us? It is the crime of living while female, and nothing galls our patriarchal society more than to see this offense on constant display. Force is often used...harassment, intimidation, abuse, rape, murder: the price we pay for breathing.

Although women make up more than the majority of human beings (above 52%), they also are the largest group of people who live in poverty and extreme poverty.

Just to rule out that we're judging the color of the grass from across the fence.

MY PERSONAL VIEW from the "bottom" of the social totem pole and the "upper-middle" economic one. However much I would sincerely love to engage on these issues, I shall not unless asked.

Exhibit A:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2668381

my race has always trumped my gender, and even my sexual orientation. i have experienced sexism, but the racism has always been more prevalent.

I can only imagine. Despite the sarcastic undertone, my original comment was serious.

I'll refrain from further comments, I made enough ignore lists as it is. ;)

just pisses us off all the more?

There was a thread on DU the other day where I found myself defending HRC for staying with Bill after that pathetic Monica Lewinsky thing.

Now, HRC is not my candidate by a long shot, but the blatant sexism in that judgment (that she was undeserving of the presidency because she made a choice the OP wouldn't have) just floored me. It pointed out something that women face every day in situations like these:

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't--and utter strangers feel perfectly free to make the call.

Even feminists argue about it--some don't mind push-up bras and heels, some are appalled by them. Can you be a feminist and oppose abortion, work as a stripper, be a stay at home mom, be a Mormon, read Camille Paglia, wear a burqa if you choose to? I'm pro-choice and I have a tough time calling an anti-choice woman a feminist--but it's not for me to make that call.

IMHO, narrowly defining the choices a woman is allowed to make in her own life isn't feminism, but other feminists have no problem with that. Which feminism is "correct"?

Simply put: we're immersed in it so the violations don't stand out and are not a taboo, we can't agree on what it is, and if it doesn't fit our own personal definitions of it, it isn't sexism.

if you haven't seen it. 1/3 of the way down the page after the BartCop Radio banner.

http://www.bartcop.com/2095.htm

Good idea.

For that reason, we're more finely tuned to it, more aware.
I have the same gut reaction to both - but, before this race, I can readily quote in my mind several specific cases of racism but I have to really think about sexism.
I said before this campaign - because this certainly changes things. With Tweety & Comp out there, I predict that sexism will catch up with racism in awareness really soon.

I marched with my mother for Women's Rights and the passage of the ERA in the 1970s. My Grandmother was a suffragette. Having worked for a huge corporation and always been compensated less than my male co-workers for the same jobs I've always been acutely aware of sexism. It just doesn't find it's way into the mainstream media the way racism does because it's SO prevalent in every society that there's nothing "newsworthy" about it.

into my mind instantly. But before Mathews, I just couldn't pinpoint an event so public. yeah, it's going on constantly. And, no, it's not publicized much.

are you aware of the female infanticides that are rampant in some cultures (rural areas of India, where Mr. B@L is from), China, Africa, etc)?

Rape as a punishment in many countries?

Female genital mutilation?

Domestic abuse?

There's plenty of horrors to go around, and it sure as hell doesn't stop at racism and sexism--but you may want to think before you react so quickly next time. Thanks.

and is so well known, nobody hardly thinks about it, except to applaud in some cases. 8.2% of black men between the ages of 25-29 are currently in prison.

As I say above, there's plenty of horror to go around. We're violent to each other because we don't like someone's race, gender, choice of lover, religion, clothing color, etc...

I'm not quite getting how your post fits in here. :shrug:

Everyone should be able to see that all of the "-sms" are dangerously wrong. They all are symptoms of disease. And any attempt to divide people into feuding camps are misguided at very best, and tend to cause more divisions.

It's not sexism when rape has become a tool of war? It's not sexism that kills thousands of women a year at the hands of their intimate partners? It's not sexism that gets women stoned for adultery or even for being the victim of rape?

Your post is exactly why racism is seen as being worse than sexism - people are blind to the affects of sexism.

Arabia, for example. Still happening in this century. Women there have been executed for adultery or pre-marital sex and can be jailed for being out at night, it seems.

... in some cultures/countries

sexism has gotten some women beaten to death - or stabbed - or shot or WHATEVER....

and terrorized in every country throughout history. It seems like some men just can't get enough when it comes to hurting and murdering women (just look at any nation that is controlled by fundamentalist extremists; women ALWAYS pay the highest price for that insanity).

of one or two, here or there. witch burning was a veritable industry of its own in the middle ages.

Slaves were both male and female.

The "sexism" we discuss today doesn't have that "slave history" element.

That's not to say either sexism or racism should ever be tolerated in any form.

Beg to differ on that one, unless I misunderstood your post (I may have).

That makes sense.

Otherwise, we might end up talking about countless atrocities throughout the history of the globe.

There aren't piles of dead babies in the streets or hanging from trees. It doesn't lessen the seriousness of the problem but that lack of visibility makes it harder to grasp. Only when the gender counts become radically imbalanced does it become obvious.

We are all being played by all sides and in all the ways that keep us distracted and bickering among ourselves. Race, gender, age, region, religion, class. All these and more are in play. Candidates and their supporters of all types regularly court voters who share their values (and race, gender, ...), while likely to allege bigotry and bias of those who might question their positions. This collective behavior will make it harder for everyone to unite around our nominee, no matter who that might be.

And now a few footnotes:

While most slaves were blacks, the first documented slave in the English colonies (VA) was white. The first blacks brought to VA were not slaves but were indentured, a fate shared by a high percentage of whites coming to America -- they were "sold" to pay the ship's captain for their passage.

There were also black slave owners, and in a few cases these free blacks also owned white slaves. By the late 1700's, most colonies had outlawed blacks owning whites.

And I remember when inter-racial marriages were finally legal in all states and when a married woman was finally allowed to own property separate from her husband.

whites weren't slaves in the N. American colonies, they were indentured servants. There were very few black slaveowners, and there's no documented evidence that they owned white servants. That anecdotal "evidence" is straight from the RW reactionary and racist sites to say that "they were just as bad, so why are we being picked on?" The slave codes rendering black people to permanent slave status were passed in the late 1600's.

it is due to sexism being more accepted because it is a cycle that has been going on for centuries down to the family level of marriages and parents/ children. Racism is more on a group level, and separation is easier with groups.

A woman has to accept sexism many times, in order to retain relationship with parents, or husband. And if she wants children, she needs a partner who may or may not be sexist.

Interesting, isn't it?

It's also less dangerous - white men are more likely to concede something to the men of a minority than to women, since there are more women than men. Then they'd be conceding more than half and possibly losing control. In their view, anyway.

C'mon now. You can't POSSIBLY believe that the answer to the thoughtful question of the OP is because 'racism goes against men'. I mean, c'mon. Really?

I say sexism is down to the family level. Racism can be, but not very likely.

It's all good Annces, we've all had our moments of 'oops!' when we thought someone replied to us when they didn't. :)

It's like the "ripple effect." Colourism is also very much on a family level.

and you're not offering a better explaination, are you?

anti-whatever the dominant racial group is. and being anti-nazi is just as bad as being a nazi. nice try OMC.

..

This is why I feel that Clinton and Obama's runs are of such great import. Their candidacies have started and will continue to start these important and ignored conversations.

I cannot proclaim one of these ingrained forms of hate and discrimination less bad than the other. They are both prevalent and reprehensible. They have both stunted our society's growth. We are well served to work for the equalities of every person.

this dialog may start again because of it. But the despearation has hit everyone and if we're not careful they'll use these things to weaken our resolve against the oppressors in Washington.

This thread is dropping...

That's all.

Stereotypes are only okay sometimes.

The problem is hate, period--and how it can be so carefully manipulated to divide us.

Neither one is "worse," they are both reprehensible, but it seems racism is more taboo and it's easier to spot.

We are living in desperate times with a mutual oppressor--the RRRepublicans that have taken over OUR government, OUR press, OUR faith, and OUR business. It's to their advantage to make us hate each other rather than them--and it makes for good television to boot.

Let's not brawl with each other when the rival gang has destroyed our neigbborhood. We need to stand together now and iron out the differences whn we have a chance...

Who is "the best" guitarist, singer (as you'll often see in the Lounge) or polititian, as the clusterfucks in GD and GDP will ask.
Apples and oranges, pomegranates and figs.

Binary thinking is our biggest obstacle. It's either THIS or THAT and NEVER the twain shall meet. NOTHING stands on its own merit. Hillary is the "next" Joan of Arc, John the next FDR, Dennis the next Henry Wallace and Obama the next Messiah. NONE of it has any substance.

The candidates are NOT the problem. They are no more than a reflection of OUR COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS. WE are not willing to engage and sort out what is in our collective best interest.

and starstruck "journalists."

It's sexy but it obscures the fact that all "isms" and bigotry are being manipulated to weaken us.

Maybe we just need to start calling them by one name: bigotry/hatred/prejudice because they hurt every one of us even if we aren't the direct victims.

I can't believe it's 2008 and we still even have to have this dialog. Siiiigh...

that's it in a nutshell

if women were as important as men, then sexism would be ranked as evil as racism

we pay lip service to women being equal but i see no evidence that anyone really thinks so, even progressives

they ALL want to dominate the woman, have her subservient.....male

not saying all individual males, i am speaking as a whole

the air we breathe.

BUT after all the absolute sexist SHIT I saw on DU starting after the debates last Saturday night - I really got to thinking - because I was FREAKING STUNNED - that I was seeing this crap on a progressive site - and then it struck me - I think some of the posters never even thought some of the shit they were writing was sexist - so maybe its because folks know when they are being racist but don't have a clue when they are being sexist.

Here is an example - there were some here at DU who wanted to make a HUGE issue out of Hillary's response to John Edwards remark about change. These folks, most likely not Clinton supporters, wanted to make Clinton's "passionate" response into the Dean scream. There were remarks about her, losing it, blowing her top, I can imagine her throwing dishes in the white house etc etc etc.

Now I think A LOT of people - do not see the sexism in this - the reason this is sexist is that had Clinton given the SAME EXACT response BUT was a man - not one effing comment would have been made about this. But as a woman, I have experienced situations where someone has told me to calm down, or accused me of being emotional or WHATEVER - and THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE SAID THESE THINGS to a man in the same circumstance. I tried to explain that in a response to a male poster and his response to me was that he is not sexist and never has been - and I believe he believes it - but to call Clinton out for that particular clip was COMPLETELY sexist because as I said if she were a man NOTHING would have been said....

In another post a woman posted "a man crying in the work place would be perceived as feminine (and therefore weak)"

My response to her was did you forget the sarcasm thingy - I don't think she did - I don't think she realized HOW RIDICULOUSLY SEXIST her comment was

ok I have to stop I'm going to pop a vein - hopefully you get my drift....I don't know if my theory is correct but I have to tell you sexism hasn't really been an issue for me in a long time - but since last Saturday is sure as hell has been....it has been very astonishing to me

culture that we as progressives need to keep pointing it out.

No HRC fan am I, but I've seen her attacked because:

She stayed with Bill
She shouldn't have stayed with Bill
She's ambitious
She doesn't think for herself
She wore the wrong color
She's too careful about her appearance
Cleavage
She's cold
She's too emotional
She wears pants
She wears skirts (and she has big hips) :eyes:

It's not just her, though--Edwards has been vilified because of his hair and his choice of home; Obama because he MIGHT NOT (but actually did) salute the flag during the National Anthem), etc. ad nauseum.

It all makes for great TV and stupid voters who can be easily led by the pathetic, ass-sitting pundits.

We need to stick together now more than ever--and we are letting this stuff tear us apart while those in power enjoy their popcorn.

We need to call it all out--racism, sexism, homophobia, and any other -isms and phobias we see and demonstrate why any one of them hurts all of us.

We're in desperate times and we need to find common ground. When we've had some success, let's start airing our difference.

I have been a feminist since I was a little girl, my Mother ran for political office, back in the mid 60s, my mother was separated from my father, not very common back then, so some man came to our house and said to her if you can't keep your husband how do you expect to hold political office....I HEARD THAT and from that moment on I have been a feminist. I have been politically active all my life and the two main issues I have worked on are women's rights and the environment - and now of course the idiot invasion/occupation of Iraq. I have personally experienced sexism in ALL kinds of ways, but not so much in the recent past, and so I was absolutely totally floored to experience here at DU.... guess it was time for me to wake up and realize it is unfortunately alive an well....

Ok and here is my FAVORITE sexist story - when I was probably 20 I worked in this little grocery store and one evening some kid came in the store and actually punched our stock boy in the face. I was a witness and charges were actually made and so I had to testify. So when I went to testify one of the lawyers questioning me - don't remember which side - asked in the middle of the questions about the incident if I was married - now I was a VERY angry feminist at that time and I thought WHAT THE FUCK does that have to do with anything - but because I did not want to hurt my "friend's" case I kept my mouth shut - but I still shake my head at that one....hmmm if I was married at the grand old age of 20 would I have been more believable....huh?

You know I truly think that for the kids growing up today - and I may be wrong about this - but at least the ones I know - the little ones, tweens and teenagers that race and gender is not as much an issue - maybe the only way to be done with it is for all the racist sexist freaks to attrition off to the great here after.....

That's probably why.

WORLDWIDE.

Baby girls are being aborted or killed after birth under their "one child" rule.

I call infanticide--hell, let's just call it MURDER--oppressive.

If you mileage varies, you are ignorant and blinded by a personal agenda.

Gad, is this 2008?

which stems in large from sexism.

The overlaps are like that HUGE spiderweb discovered in Arizona.
We are ALL connected. What hurts one of us hurts ALL OF US.

:hi:

Racism affects men so it's worse than sexism (or so it's often perceived).


And this is a good primer on how homophobia stems from misogyny .

The thing about racism, is it can be more subtle than sexism. What I mean by that is only an idiot or someone who is proud of being a racist, is going to come out and say blatantly racist comments. Our current brand of more public racists go for the below the belt, and they step back and act indignant at "accusations" of racism.

By way of contrast, blatant sexism, including blatantly sexist comments, (as I see it) is A-OK in the minds of many who don't care, or don't believe and are not afraid of what it sounds like. It's ingrained in our culture, it's in our schools, it's a powerful marketing tool and is tossed out to us every day, and accepted as "normal"

a line from the movie "Something to Talk About". Julia Roberts' character says of southern women "we're bred to have low expectations."

I think as women we have low expectations many times. We certainly don't ban together as women.....I recently read on another board a post from a woman saying she wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton because women can't be the commander in chief.

You never hear an Afro-American say Barak can't be the president because he's black.

my niece told me the other day she heard a woman call into a radio station stating that a woman can't be President because of PMS - I SCREAMED HELLO Senator Clinton is 60 I think and I don't imagine there is too much PMS happening in her life

and even if there was PMS happening that is just plain stupid....GOOD LORD....

My niece was livid that this was said by a woman....

socially acceptable. Especially if it shows its ugly face with a laugh and a "just kidding".

Even among people who consider themselves liberal.

and asked her what she thought was "THE WORST" sexism or racism Her first response was racism. Then I told her my ranking of sexism, colourism, racism and asked WHEN she first realized that SHE was supposed to be the "BOY." She didn't answer immediately, as is her wont, I waited several minutes in silence to hear her light switch go on... HOLY SHIT! WHAT led you to question this? I told her I was doing my DU thang, talking with a lot of folks who have NO CLUE and a few who feel it important enough to get one.

hear people trying to minimize the existence and significance of sexism. i think that most white progressives at least recognize the existence and 'wrongness' of racial discrimination, although many of them are oblivious to the ever-present multitudes of its manifestations in the lives of non-white people. i think that the various discriminations are different, and sexism may be more subtle than racism, but it's definitely there, and there are a lot of progressives who barely even think it still exists.

and Welcome to DU, Votes For Women! :hi:

Having been profoundly affected by the trio of -isms I listed and often asked "Which is worse?" has required that I put a lot of thought into what they really are and how they manifest themselves. Most often they cannot be separated.

Sexism was the first to hit me in the face. When my beloved baby sis was born my mother's disappointment was palpable. Dad was delighted and considered 3 kids plenty even if they were all girls. Mom did not. Sis never really climbed out from under the load of crap that was dumped on her head. Indeed, I question whether she'd ever thought about it much until our conversation last night (which is to be continued today as it got a bit intense).

My brother's birth was accompanied by much pomp and circumstance. HE was the "special" one. I cannot tell you how many times I heard "because HE'S a BOY" come out of my mother's mouth. Baby sis had to fight to make sure te chores were distributed fairly. "He EATS, he WASHES DISHES." I was out of the house by the time it got ridiculous. She is 4 years older, she COULDN'T but he COULD "because HE'S a BOY."

A friend who has 4 brothers recalls her mom refering to them collectively as "the BOYS." I'd wager most of those who've posted on this thread became aware of sexism as children. It places undue demands on males and all too often puts females under the thumb which, of course, "works" for patriarchal systems.

That in a nutshell is why sexism occupies position #1 in my personal ranking. It's GLOBAL. It's ubiquitous. AND it's the LEAST mutable of the 3.

happening in your own family; i think this is why so many girls end up growing up believing that they are inferior, should stay in their 'place,' etc., or at the very least, they stay silent about it even if they object.

The preferred child. The blonde one. The "lighter" one. Or even the one who looks the most like daddy...

when people are so young that i think they become internalized in both the minds of the 'perpetrator' and the victim.

I started having more and more in depth conversations with a strong female feminist friend of mine. I mean, I knew it had been around quite a bit (I was in the army for some time and before that had a good liberal knowledge and upbringing) but the complexities of it didn't start to really emerge until our friendship evolved.

to see things "through their eyes." I am truly grateful to have been born into such a diverse family. We HAD TO confront these issues. These -isms were intensely personal to me at a young age, affecting me profoundly. They've been UP IN MY FACE for nearly 6 decades. They've taken their toll on my hopes, dreams and achievements. I WISH I could just wave a magic wand and disappear them all! :nuke:

In her professional career, she has had far more difficulties because of her gender than her race, though both have been factors.

She works on a high enough professional level that she is often the only woman on that level, and virtually always the only person of color, male or female.

After integrating the elementary school, the first time I saw another face like mine in a classroom was as a junior in high school. I attended a conservatory and was the lone black spot in the middle of the wind section. Some were "offended" by my presence and NOT shy about letting that be known. (If only I had lighter skin, eyes and "better" hair...)

I branched out after Fred the Mechanic played Coltrane's "Ballads" for me. Knocked on George Coleman's door. "You have to teach me." "Girl, I know NOTHING about the oboe." "I know the oboe, you know the music." "AWWRIGHT! Come on in!" My "graduate" studies were late night sessions in dark, smoky clubs.

The jazz scene is misogynist in the EXTREME. I am wary of black male musicians to this day, so harsh was the abuse heaped on me. I wasn't some untrained singer they could blow off. They knew I KNEW what was going on and were extremely threatened. I expected that from the wannabes, but NOT from the Who's Who I encountered.

The WORST was on my birthday. George was the headliner, invited me to sit-in as ALL the press would be there. THAT'S what teachers DO for their students. Upon seeing me the "lite-n-brite" club owner demanded he pay my entry and cover. (If only I had lighter skin, eyes and "better" hair...)

I took the stage and at that moment MrBIG entered. He said, "SHE thinks she can play with US???" jumped onto the stage, grabbed my lip and started to DRAG ME ACROSS THE STAGE.

The African-American rhythm section DID NOTHING. (If only I had lighter skin, eyes and "better" hair... they would have considered me something their honor demanded they protect). It was slow-motion for me as I thought "Now I will be forever remembered as the "girl" who punched out MrBIG." George grabbed him by the neck and pulled him off me a nanosecond before I let loose. THEN I had to play. Got a few nice mentions and no one referred to the assault.

She also was the first black child in a previously segregated white elementary school. Her family then moved to a college town that was virtually all-white. She did well, and went on to a major college, and then a professional career in business and government, including a stint in a fairly important position in the Clinton administration. Now she is in the private sector.

Usually her colleagues are older white males. She finds herself dismissed, simply as a female, and has instead had to cultivate her own network, mostly of other professional women, in order to advance her career.

This is not to say that men haven't helped her out, simply that she has had to prove herself constantly, every step of the way, of her expertise and leadership abilities in a way many men are not required to do.

and too often to those wet behind the ears is quite a drain on the psyche. It can get real old, real quick once one has scrapped and fought to get to one's level.

Funnily enough, the men in the jazz scene who were consistently the NICEST to me were well-established "Old White Men." THEY felt no threat in acknowledging the trail I was blazing and were VERY supportive.

When I was being "groomed" for an executive position in the music industry, I got QUITE an education from that same group. Being all ears and fresh-faced, armed with the latest info and many questions, they were delighted to educate me. My stint in the corporate world was short-lived. I was offered a power position in PR and heard the knives being drawn. I retreated quickly.

I really just want to play music and touch the unknowable. I don't want to harm anyone. I have a great talent, feel a responsibility to it, and if it's not your thing just press "OFF." I've NEVER had a problem with an audience. They always get real quiet. The "suits" have told me:

If we promote YOU, then YOU would define the instrument and we're NOT going to let YOU do that. (SONY) I asked "Who's "WE?"

If I showed up with something like YOU, I'd probably lose my job! (GRP) This was said to me by an A&R guy just after he'd seen a standing ovation for my performance.

What's an oboe? (CBS)

there are no differences between races of people- other than the color of their skin.

DNA will bear this out beyond a shadow of a doubt. here's what you apparently don't get - IT DOESN'T MATTER who is or isn't 'different;' we should all be entitled to the same rights and respect, *regardless* of our differences. here's something else - you're no better than a woman, and women DON'T HAVE TO BE THE SAME as men to be entitled to the same dignity.

Both racism and sexism are horrible and unacceptable.

Less damage. :evilgrin:

as a society we seem to categorize ourselves into role playing. Majority of CEOs are men, nurses and teachers are mostly women, plumbers are mostly men etc. If we could get out of that for a start.

How many times have we heard "you'd better check it" if a woman does it? Like the time I installed the hot water heater.

Homophobia is included in SEXISM.

... insofar as the sheer amount of lives taken by racism and the violence manifested in association with racism.

I'm not saying the below is true elsewhere except perhaps in the UK -- but for the US and the UK, this is how I see it:

Comparing racism to sexism is comparing apples to oranges. Both are bad, but different in scale and effect.

I know of no true "martyr" to the women's suffrage movement -- I know one woman campaigned herself to death and died of severe B-12 deficiency, another woman in the UK jumped in front of horses as a protest and died of her injuries. From what I hear there may have been deaths from force-feeding during prison hunger strikes -- but that may be a modern invention since I can't find it on Google. Of course, deaths of high-standing people make the news, deaths of middle-class or working-class women, especially Catholic women in the UK at the time (severe anti-Catholic prejudice ran rampant then), may not have gotten much press. The martyrs in this country to racism are impossible to count, Dr. King's martyrdom gets a lot of mention because he was a nationally known figure but how many other people died that never got a headline? (That is NOT to denigrate Dr. King.)

Women were never considered "property" or counted as only 3/5ths of a person by law. There were severe restrictions on a married woman's right to own property in her own name and make financial transactions, but they were still wives. They may have felt "enslaved", especially since they had no choice in their government and no choice over their bodies (at that time Margaret Sanger's work was considered pornographic and obscene), but their status was very different.

Law enforcement responses to suffragettes and civil rights activists were quite different. Suffragettes were locked in prison in horrific conditions and subjected to force-feeding when they utilized jail solidarity by hunger strikes -- but they were rarely beaten or tortured. Civil rights protesters were often beaten, tortured, and sometimes killed, as well as subjected to horrific conditions in jail.

The women's suffrage movement did not generate huge organizations of men determined to keep women down -- however, many groups sprang up such as the KKK that used violence to suppress the voices of blacks who wanted to exercise the rights they'd already been granted according to the Constitution.

No one can deny the effect of racism was horrific and that people targeted by racists were subjected to far worse treatment than those targeted by sexism.

-----------------------------

As far as scope, however.... I think that racism is less common in our country than sexism. It is demonstrably less socially acceptable than sexism. Even if I am wrong and racism is more common, because it is less socially acceptable very few people will admit to racist tendencies. And outside of the Anglo-centered world, sexism becomes much worse than it is here in the US (genital mutilation, honor killings, female infanticide/selective abortion, to name a few ways).

Some argue that sexism has been around longer than racism, but as far as I can tell looking at history, from the moment we met people that looked different than us, we discriminated. Women were always there.

I think part of the reason why it is more socially acceptable to exhibit sexist tendencies is that, to be blunt. women and men do have significant biological differences, much more so than the surface differences between the races. We stereotype babies from the moment the ultrasound tells us the gender and it doesn't stop.

So which is worse? Depends on your definition of "worse".

I'd define "worse" as more pervasive and invasive.

:eyes:

Hekate

Anything for short term profit for the few.

Sexism, racism, age-ism -- all symptoms of the basic evil of an economic system that is unequal and unsustainable!

You want to end racism and sexism in real terms and not just spout feel good identity politics bullshit? Then stop the capitalist exploitation of all people period. Once people feel empowered in their lives they will stop looking for scapegoats to make them feel better.

They are also systems of power, and even after abolishing capitalism those privileged by such systems will seek to perpetuate them.

Perhaps we can create a society where people do not have such tendencies toward domination... but certainly abolishing capitalism is only part of the answer.

and will not be magically eliminated with the socialist revolution.

... the systematic ending of an entire people.

The threat of genocide is never entirely absent, and the prevention of genocide requires untiring vigilance against the slandering of minorities (which is the well-spring of genocidal atrocity).

"The larger issue is eliminating the black race from this continent."

Even the worst sexists can't take it that far, lest their own societies die out.

I think on it's face, the majority of right thinking people can recognize genocide for what it is. I think ALL people who care about human rights, true democracy, true liberty and true freedom, will always see genocide for what it is.

But look at how we in this world look at women. Here in America, in our cinema we have no problems with watching endless movies where women are raped and murdered, all in the name of entertainment. Hell, back in the 70's a whole genre was created where sex, nudity and violence against women started and to this day it continues. We apparently have no compunction as a country where when an adult woman shows emotion, she is portrayed as weak, when in comparison an adult male who does the same is portrayed as a tough man.

What I'm getting at, is it not worse when one aspect of discrimination is so deeply ingrained that it is almost seen as accepted, where the other (genocide) is automatically seen for what it is?

I understand it may seem like I'm trying to say systemic acts of genocide are not equal to sexism, but I'm not. I'm just trying to point out it seems as if sexism (probably because the world is controlled by men) is seen as way below, when to me, it can be just as bad as racism.

First, I'm not trying to equate the two or quantify one as being worse than the other.

And there have been some excellent replies that have added to the depth of this question.

From what I've read, I think it is fair to believe that there are levels or gradients of the two (and this is not to mean that a small gradient is allowable - what I'm getting at is, a difference can be seen in sexism as it relates to a military person not believe women would be good in combat versus that of a misogynistic male who is willing to do harm to women).

The point one poster made was sexism has been around so long it is more deeply ingrained and probably pretty true.

It just seems to me that of the two, here in America we are more at ease with acts of sexism than racism and I think the recent treatment of HRC and her "tearing up" and her stern reply in one of debats (characterized as her "losing it") clearly show we permit more acts of sexism than racism (recall the "bitch" question in the McCain campaign and what I consider to be almost no repercussions at all - at least Don Imus lost his job for a while - even though that one contained both sexist and racist content).

Lastly, someone brought up gays and sexual orientation. One time a black female friend and I were talking and she made a negative comment about gays and I asked her what was the difference between gays wanting to avoid discrimination just like people of color and how the two were very similar. Her reply was along the lines to keep in mind they can be different because people can hide their sexual orientation and people can't hide color of skin or gender. I'm not saying it's right, but pointing out, there are so many levels to these types of discussion and so many interesting and important layers to take into account.

The language we use to discuss these issues is also quite inadequate. When I "rank" the -isms, it is not about which is "worse," (ALL stupid biases SUCK SEWAGE and having been subjected to them, the very concept of "worse" is a moot point) rather which is most pervasive and immutable. Sexism is far and away the pack leader. It's the default setting for every patriarchal society and VERY deeply ingrained.

As for HRC, Robin Lakoff's "The Language War" has a chapter on her coverage as First Lady. It's as timely today as the day she wrote it.

"Colourism" is another ism that has no borders and transcends cultures. It tends to affect women more negatively than men. That lifelong message that you're somehow "less than" if you're not blonde and stupid if you are... How does one explain the billions the cosmetics industry makes on BLONDE DYE ALONE?
I've tried to get DUers to engage on this topic, Did you ever go blonde? Why? Did people treat you differently? Were you the dark-haired kid in your family? The only blonde? but maybe it's just too uncomfortable. And that's just caucasians...

Colourism is pervasive, subtle and the dirty little secret no one wants to verbalize. It's an insidious bias that one can often find in one's most intimate contacts.

If we really WANT to begin to deconstruct all these isms that continue to divide us, we have no choice but to drop our defenses, face them squarely and engage in those sometimes painful exchanges.

Thank you...

http://www.pamspaulding.com/weblog/2005/07/skin-and-color-of-money.html

Skin and the color of money
Sunday, July 31, 2005

"Can black people tan?"
-- a white college student at Fordham, back in 1983, asking me whether I could turn browner in the sun, as we sat outside in the late spring.
My answer to that question, by the way (after I picked my jaw up off of the floor) was to calmly say "yes," and I took off my watch so she could see the contrast between my tan and what was underneath my timepiece. I then held my arm up next to her olive-skinned Italian forearm to show her that my non-tan color was lighter than her skin tone.

Gina was quite friendly and earnest when she asked the question. The fact that she felt comfortable enough with me to ask it, made me feel that she deserved a response that would not humiliate or embarrass her by pointing out her ignorance. I was, however, quite perplexed by the blunt question for several reasons. It made me curious about what she exactly thought "black" meant in physical terms (educating her on the fact that race is a social construct probably would have been too much for her to handle). In her world, though, were we that different? Did she have no concept that all humans just have varying amounts of the same chemical, melanin, that affects the complexion they have? Was she just racist? That last word is loaded. Gina was not outwardly hostile toward someone of another race. To narrowly define that word here -- she is a victim of growing up in a world of cultural, institutionalized racism and lack of exposure to people of another color.

<snip>

The Melanin Thing, and the Brown Paper Bag Test

"They said, if you was white, you'd be alright, If you was brown, stick around, But as you is black, oh brother, Get back, get back, get back."
-- A 1947 blues song, "Black, Brown, and White," written by Big Bill Broonzy.
By the way, Broonzy couldn't get the song recorded in America (labels turned him down); he had to do it in Europe.

This whole melanin thing is quite complicated, and cultures around the world are obsessed with it, as human beings follow natural inclinations to categorize and organize things, including people. The assignment of other humans into easy visual cubbyholes by those in dominant cultures makes it infinitely easier to give political and economic power to (or withhold from) whole classes of people. It all spirals down into a pitiful morass of bigotry and insane systems of repression that are also accepted and perpetuated within those populations deemed racially "inferior."

Here at home it's still a taboo in much of the black community to talk about the internecine wars that can be started up over skin tone. It's called Colorism. As Bill Maxwell in a 2003 article in the St. Petersburg Times noted quite nicely...

more at link.

colorism is the interracial difference in a race due to differing shades? Sort of like "high yellow" vs a more black? And I assume this means say, a difference between a more Westernized looking black woman vs that of an African one?

(I truly hope this is not offensive to anyone - I'm just trying to get the proper meaning of "colorism").

for it is a manifestation WITHIN a group. There are the maxims "Blondes have more fun" and Gentlemen prefer blondes." In African-American communities it has a long and ugly history which has served to perpetuate BOTH sexism and racism. It's the glue that conncts them. In India it has been enshrined by religion with the caste system. In ALL cultures it is a tool to opress women in particular.

http://www.racialicious.com/2007/03/23/fertility-clinic-mixup-results-in-black-baby-for-white-parents/

A Park Avenue fertility clinic’s blunder has left a family devastated - after a black baby was born to a Hispanic woman and her white husband, the couple charges in a lawsuit.

The mistake, made during in-vitro conception, wasn’t discovered until Jessica Andrews was born - and it became clear she didn’t look anything like her mom, Nancy, or dad, Thomas, the suit says.

The baby’s complexion was much darker than that of her mom - a light-skinned native of the Dominican Republic - or dad.

"Jessica doesn't look like them," said the couple's attorney Howard Stern, of Long Island.

Except that she does!

The full article is in the NY Post:





Oh, for fux sake! It's the white DAD who looks like the odd one out. The other three -- the mother and two daughters -- are peas in a pod.

That woman is in denial. She isn't "light-skinned", and she doesn't look white. She looks mulata, which is what she is. Just like her kids -- both of them. If the baby had turned out blond and blue-eyed, would she be worriedly seeking genetic testing for fear that clinic had used someone else's egg -- or just keeping her suspicions to herself and celebrating her "luck"?


I can understand suing the fertility clinic for fertilizing this woman's ovum with sperm not belonging to her husband. But I take vehement exception to the tone of hysterical loathing concerning the resulting child for being -- let's be honest here -- just about the same color as her mother.

The girl is STILL her daughter, and even with unrelaxed hair (don't lie, lady!) does indeed resemble her. Just how badly do the Andrewses plan to treat this kid, if they're already invoking the threat of "physical and emotional illness for not being the same race as her parents and siblings"? Perhaps the fact that they're leaving a nice paper trail of negrophobic remarks that their daughter might someday discover gives us some indication.


Heaven help that girl.

because my "going blonde" in my late 30s has been quite an education.

I'm very much appreciating your thoughts on this subeject but I can't really address it now. I'll try to get back to it tomorrow. VERY interesting.

It seems to be a topic most are afraid to touch! ;-)

First off, I'm basically a WASP that had parents who were very activist during the civil rights movement, so I'm probably more sensitive to things like this than average (I was born late in my parents' life).

Going blonde late in life has been quite an education. I'd considered it for years in passing, but never had the nerve. Then I nearly had a heart attack and survived (I've had insulin dependent diabetes since a very young age). My son was only three at the time and surviving it just rocked my world in many ways. It really did "rejuvenate" me to survive this in the dictionary sense of making me feel both younger and more alive than ever.

Shortly after recovering, I just called my stylist on a whim and made an appointment to go platinum blonde. I never hesitated, I just did it. For a while, I simply had to get used to myself looking so different and that took quite some time. I suppose it bears mention that I've always been something of a fashion fan so this wasn't a TV style "makeover" thing.

When I finally got truly comfortable with it, I began to notice that people were, in fact, treating me quite differently--particularly strangers.

I really did get more attention from people. I'd get waited on sooner in stores, strangers on the street seemed more inclined to acknowledge and even speak to me--and strangers seemed okay with commenting about my appearance (I was taught never to comment on a strangers appearance-- :shrug:). They were not commenting upon my hair, ever, but what I was wearing, my body, my lipstick, my jewelry, etc. Not just men, although I got lots more attention from them, but women too.

Women's reactions were the most interesting, really. I seemed to be "liked" from the outset more by many and disliked from the beginning more by others. The difference was quite noticeable, really. Women alone or in groups were more inclined to "take" to me. Their attitudes were more welcoming and accepting than when I was a brunette. Alone or with their male friends they seemed a little less open than when I was a brunette.

Males, too, were far more inclined to be open with me as a stranger. They seemed more inclined to engage me in conversation in elevators, waiting in restaurants, etc. The comments were often more suggestive than I would expect from a stranger. Not overtly so, but as I say, they'd comment on my dress or my hair "cut," etc. this wasn't just in social situations either--I'd get it at work quite often (my work involved meeting people from small publishers and the like).

As for people who know me, my husband is inclined to mention that I've gotten less smart when we have an argument. We'd known each other for six years when we got married and been married for four when I made the change and we are still very happily married but of course we have disagreements--but even he never commented on my appearance in the midst of an argument before. To his credit, my son only wishes I'd go back to auburn (the color I had when he was born and growing to a toddler).

In my mind, it was only a cosmetic change, but I suppose my own attitude may have changed. I sometimes think I'm less shy than before (a lifelong problem) but I also think that peoples' willingness to approach me after "the Blonde" is the major factor there. I've never been the type to approach people myself and I used to fade because of it despite my inclination for clothes and grooming. Now I don't need to come to people and still don't but I get plenty of attention--some pleasant, some very uncomfortable.

I love the way I look (it really suits my complexion) and I did it strictly for myself and plan to stay with it until the grey is undeniable. It's probably worth it to add here that my husband is younger than me and neither one of us is comfortable with letting me go gray yet. Since he's Asian Indian as well and we're used to some stares already, I think that would be a little too hard to take right now.

Actually, I was ready to close this but that bears a mention as well. In social situations as a couple people would tend to shun us (he's not very dark, and again, I could write a book on colorism just from the experiences we've had in the South Asian community here!) but yes, we are more inclined to get approached and actually able to engage people than when I was a brunette.

Very interesting subject. Our very dark Kenyan friend is married to a much lighter woman and they too get treated quite differently, not just in the African American community either. And as I say, my husband gets more respect than most Indians from whites, it seems, and since Punjabis are a higher caste, he certainly does from his fellow South Asians.

I could go on and on on this! It's something I never really thought a lot about until I read your posts but it really clicked for me.

Do you have any theories on WHY ALL THAT IS?

AND 2 questions:

When you were brunette did anyove ever ask you if your hair was really brown?

Since you've gone blonde how many times have you been asked about your hair color?

As to whether anyone asked if my hair was really brown--I think you can figure that the answer is "never." And yes, people who have no business asking will ask me what my natural color is. I never really was bothered by that until it occurred to me that it just wasn't a question I'd ask most people myself and still don't, even when it seems obvious. I could be mistaken and besides, it's just none of my business.

I know several people who dye their hair and only the blondes have been asked now that I think about it (or maybe they are the only ones who talk about it :shrug:). How many times I've been asked? I haven't really thought about it, but it certainly isn't a question that seemed to come up in normal conversation before and now it definitely has on many, many occasions.

I get the "dumb blonde--hahahahaha (as in: "You know I don't really mean that"--but the source would never think of saying it if I wasn't blonde) thing very often. I might have done the same stupid or awkward thing before and it never was blamed on a physical attribute. What used to be considered a "brain fart" is now a "blonde thing."

As to theories, I need to think about that a little but I will get back to it, I promise.

Is that your REAL hair??? Complete strangers feel they have the right to grab my hair (I have waist length dreadlocks). I see the "hair thang" as a sub-heading of colourism, which again affects WOMEN.

We're REALLY getting somewhere now, thanks to you, Blondeatlast!!!

one purpose of the lie is to continue being racist, or rather, acting with complicity in a racist system. it's one of the maddening facts of racism in america circa 2007...that is really unacceptable, but it really isn't. sure if some newscaster or radio personality makes an insensitive comment, all hell breaks loose. but, whatever supposed taboo against racism there is did not stop the jenna6 situation, nor did it stop people right here on DU from saying they would not support affirmative action any longer because OJ got acquitted. racism is not dead, and it is not taboo.

as for obama, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a possibly viable candidate because he is biracial...and his father isn't american. he should check with OJ and colin powell about the dangers of being granted honorary white man status.
there is a long-standing joke in the black community about white folks being tolerant of "other" black people, but not their own black people.

In a democracy the majority have the ability to persecute minorities to no end.

Setting aside constitutional issues, the majority could vote to disallow people of hispanic descent from voting. The votes do not exist to do the same thing to women.

The founders built in that idea of protecting the minority from the majority.

But given your response, the question is why women, the majority, are still not treated equally?

The society which doesn't ask women to register for the draft, has a Womens Infants and Childrens nutrition program, passes a violence against women act clearly does not see the genders as equal.

Whether the structural, institutional and legally sanctioned inequalities are appropriate is a different question, and not really one I'm interested in debating.

Women aren't treated equally because the consensus view is that men and women are not equal. The only disagreement is how. If you ask most men which inequalities are bad, you get one answer. If you ask most women which inequalities are bad, you get another.

the fact is that the ONLY thing women are constitutionally protected from is that they cannot be denied the vote based on their sex. Technically they are not given equal status, according to the Constitution. Most of the slack is taken up through federal or state statutes, or Constitutions.

Whereas a persecuted minority may have NO connection of any kind to the hegemons. Ethnic minorities are at risk for being completely expelled from the nation -- or even physically obliterated for once and for all, so that no more of their kind can exist in the future.


What compares to that?

In a democracy the majority have the ability to persecute minorities to no end.

Setting aside constitutional issues, the majority could vote to disallow people of hispanic descent from voting. The votes do not exist to do the same thing to women.

You're right about this. There is nothing inherently self-limiting in the persecution of a minority by a majority. That train can go all the way to the end of the line. That's what's so uniquely scary about the phenomenon.

Did I do that? :crazy:

(I'll start posting with my own user name as soon as my account is activated.)

I found these stories about "mixed-race" twins of different color quite interesting, being of mixed race (white and black) myself. I found especially puzzling the reporter's insistence on describing the children as "mixed race" -- if someone born of two traditionally defined races has children with another person born of those two races, is it even appropriate to refer to their offspring as "mixed race" anymore?

And don't even get me started on that headline "Twin Girls Are Different Race". o_0

I didn't get to read before he posted. He's jet-lagged and racked out now. Inzwischen haben wir viel discutiert.

Can take away woman's right to make decisions over her reproductive rights No?

And who makes up this "majority?" They can never succeed at co-opting the decision, only at making it difficult and dangerous.

Sexism is WAY worse worlwide AND in our countries. Racism makes me angry....sexism makes me despair. We can't beat it, if we can't see it.

At least in society at large. Commercials make sex objects of women. We are supposed to always be hot. If you are not hot, you are a loser. Women are much more likely to lose jobs because of age discrimination (which is supposed to be illegal too) than men are.

Women are still second class citizens in many ways.

I've been victim of both racism and sexism. The racism occurred when I was young and I think it's had more of a negative impact on my life. The sexism I just blow off and It doesn't bother me as much.

When I was 11-13 years old I was constantly harassed at school by two or three other kids. I was called the N word and spic on a daily basis as well as other racial slangs. I never confronted these kids I just tried hard to ignore it. But now that I'm an adult I still feel very sensitive to any racial bias around me even if it's not directed at me. It deeply upsets me.

However when I hear a woman get called the B word by a male co-worker behind her back. It doesn't offend me. Recently we had a female manager take over our department and one of my co-workers called her an ignorant slut (behind her back) for no good reason. Crap like this happens all the time and yet it doesn't bother us the way it should.

I work in a white male, republican dominated occupation and I hear crap (comments about women-not your experience) like that all the time - but only when it comes to women. No longer do you hear the openly racist remarks, because those could be career-enders, but this does not include women.

Sadly, the women in my occupation have to seemingly take on the role of "go along, to get along" and at one point an older female co-worker publicly stated something, "we know this is a man's job and these are the things we have to learn to deal with if we want to continue to work in it."

It made me sick to hear a woman make such a statement.

Thanks again.

I've noticed that for the last two decades. It's also more "socially acceptable" to be sexist. even among liberals. This is REALLY illustrated in certain DU threads.

Although I'm sure many on here will make it an HRC vs. Obama thing, and it's not.

to it a few times)

Karenina has offered some excellent insight.

MORE EXCELLENT DISCUSSIONS!!! :bounce::bounce::bounce:

DO NOT MISS THESE!

Pamela Troy Fri Jan-18-08 06:59 PM
Original message: A Brief (But Timely) Guide to Misogyny
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2713066


McCamy Taylor Fri Jan-18-08 08:19 PM
Original message: “Women, Race & Class” The Most Important Book You Can Read This Election Season
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2713755

the thread dropped like a rock!

We're all being played, Madmom. To survive the upheaval that stands at the door a massive shift in our collective conscious awareness will be required. Frankly, I'm not convinced we're up to it. We squander our potential in finding more efficient ways to destroy each other.

Personally, I sincerely believe our constructs if "I and other" are about to be stripped of their false reality by circumstances WAY beyond our control. Our model has been competition. We've rarely exercised our capacity to rise above it.

The vague glimmer of hope still within me is the reason I've stuck with this thread...

Didn't think that one through, didya "Bridgit"?

the military, and local authorities, have contributed to the confusion in apprehending what is now, allegedly, an AWOL killer of women...think it through for yourself either way; if you have no compassion for a shallow grave filled with blunt force trauma, and a dead baby made so same-wise...then i guess that you do not, "NorthernSpy"

edited fer gramma :dunce:

what should be "headline news across the nation" is the manner in which... the military, and local authorities, have contributed to the confusion in apprehending what is now, allegedly, an AWOL killer of women...think it through for yourself either way; if you have no compassion for a shallow grave filled with blunt force trauma, and a dead baby made so same-wise...then i guess that you do not, "NorthernSpy"

I pointed out the self-refuting nature of your original post: it's just not true that Maria Lauterbach serves as an example of our society ignoring violence against women, because her story has been in the headlines all across America.


And rather than concede the point, you start babbling that I must not have any "compassion for a shallow grave filled blunt force trauma" plus a baby, etc.


Look: the only reason I'm not going to bother alerting on this little slander of yours is that its manifest stupidity renders it harmless to me, its target, even as it shines a most revealing spotlight on you.

would have a different take on the matter than, say, yourself. Women of all colors. If by moving beyond Lauterbach being white, or a Marine, makes it easier for you to understand such plights quite beyond issues of racism in America; which are vast, many & varied, then do so. I fact leave the baby out of it. The baby is gone.

The MSM usurpation of the last round of dem debates via racism, where racism lead the exchanges for some 40min; not to mention the MSM coverage and vying for such 'smack-downs' for months now and not these last some weeks, point to racism receiving plenty of attention much of it undo, much of it where there is none.

I do not therefore agree with your opinion in-whole, neither do I share your relationship with aggression however pointed, or passive.

:banghead:

But just where? Have I heard that little trifle, that aspersion, that slight previous? Oh! I do in fact recall; it were from no-less than two (2), tenured professors at university where it were I nonetheless received a 4.0 from within the dross I am quite sure; my little 4yr degree...still, there, where they were tenured within their curricula of flared nostrils condescended from their ivory towers w/patched tweed jackets filled with professorial disdain instead for any & all what otherwise fits best to *their* minds their notions of lives, lexicons & studied loves...no, my daring you, this is a world greater than the sum of it's parts...

Greater than the geometry of mere racism; as I have suggested in some thread elsewhere here at DU, suggested in fact that it is a cacophony of bigotries, my dearest (and yeah, go ahead and quote me), we however loosely refer to...not just one, but many, as they are all splinters within the eyes of we humans believe it or not, NorthernSpy. As this is your charge, check it!!. There are not 'sins', but for one sin, my dear one. And that is the sin of falling short of the Glory of God...one! One sin. Not one above the other, just one. Believe it. As though it were your salvation, as though it is ours. Yours, and mine. That is not a matter of semantics, or nuance. That is a matter of faith.

Do the Spanish Hands within this pic offend you? Then you are to be pitied, and not to be taken seriously in the least period

Unless you brought enough for everyone.

Honor killings in a number of Muslim countries (effects women) just to name one.

Domestic violence.

But at least here we don't kill a girl because she was raped, and therefore brought shame upon the family. How sick.

to reinforce your own sense of superiority. PLEASE don't take that personally. I see it as a part of a kind of "groupthink" ie. "At least I'm white." It's more about distancing. See: Alex Jung's article White Liberals/White Privilege on Alternet.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2522501

Violence against women is endemic, epidemic, culturally reinforced, ubiquitous and damn near universal on this planet. Comparisons of the "whys" are no more than candles in hell. Women are still DEAD.

A girl is killed because she was raped.

A Marine and her fetus are dead because...

???

I am coming to your defense and agreeing wholeheartedly with you. Now somehow I am reinforcing MY superiority? Give me a big fucking break.

STOP. LOOK. LISTEN. :hug:

This is not about YOU personally. Your response embodied that aspect of, "WE" don't stone, behead, hang, WHATEVER. But "WE" have "ozer vays" to achieve the same ends. When "WE" point at "THEM" ignoring the burnt bodies in our own backyards, we remain in the position of NOT GETTING IT while tooting our own horns. The Übermenschen have us pointing our fingers at each other's failings and foibles.

YOU NASTY SMOKERS!!! People are at each others' throats. Meanwhile the corporations contaminating our air, water and food supply continue bidness as usual, barely getting a notice.

Work with me on this train of thought...

The *cabal that has seized the reins of the U.S. *MIC is committing genocide in Iraq. IT IS ALSO COMMITTING A FORM OF GENOCIDE AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. *They have learned much from their predecessors. NO NASTY PHOTOGRAPHIC RECORDS. NO WELL KEPT STATISTICS. Think NOLA. Think Donut holes.

Meanwhile WE are so identified with THEIR story board that we are BLIND to how we're being played off against each other.

for thinking you're doing us any favors- coming to our defense. Fuck the fuck off, buddy.

I could get nasty. You're late to this rodeo.

its in everything we believe in. almost every interest/hobby/trait is gendered.

so much so that i think it blinds us to sexism

The FIRST "other" is FEMALE. This is why sexism ranks #1 on my "list." The concept of "colourism" aids and abets both racism and sexism which is why I think it is important for us to discuss, deconstruct and reverse engineer, even if just amongst ourselves on this thread.

Princess Lioness, you know much about colourism. I wish you would share more of your insight.

significant.

ofcourse black people are disproportionately poor so its harder to parse these issues

always wanting to threaten, Patriarchy, the way God, intended, women to be less than a man! Now get those damn shoes off and go back to the kitchen. Ya let 'em vote and learn to drive and pretty soon there are more women enrolled at the universities than men. No, wonder, we got kids in daycare and Dr. Laura, has a job straightening out this country.:sarcasm:

I would really love to hear your views on our collective clusterfuck!

It is, in many cases, much easier to identify racism than sexism on a collective basis. That's not to say that in specific individual situations one group has it better or worse than another, but you can identify a large predominantly minority community and see the problems much easier because the issues affect everyone as a community. For women, there aren't large "predominantly female" communities where 70-80% of the residents are female and experiencing the same sort of issues, so unlike racism, it's more difficult to identify as it is handled mostly as a collection of specific cases. Now outside of the US, as many have cited, in places like China, the ME, and Africa, it's easier to identify situations of collective sexism, but many people tend to focus on the issues at a national level (where they may have some control) as opposed to at an international level (where they may have little or no control).

Would you be willing to expand your comments on your experiences of 'male privilege?' Have you ever had occasion to recognize it?

You wrote:

"For women, there aren't large "predominantly female" communities where 70-80% of the residents are female and experiencing the same sort of issues, so unlike racism, it's more difficult to identify as it is handled mostly as a collection of specific cases."

Hmmm...

predominantly female with 8% of the males in prison.

Not arguing your point, I just think it's interesting that when we talk about the "ghetto" we are talking about a place that is both majority black and majority female.

Racism is very, very easy to define. Sexism? Is it sexist to look at softcore porn? Hardcore porn? Is it sexist if you think women look good in skirts? Are you a sexist if your girlfriend cheats on you and you get mad and call her a slut? Intellectual sexism ("Well, statistics have shown that women are...") will get jumped on in here as fast as any kind of racism. With the cultural stuff there is a broad range of sensitivity. The b- and c-words are as universally taboo as the n-word, but at the high end of the sensitivity spectrum you are going to get offended by something in pretty much every thread.

And what are your thoughts about colourism and how it relates to sexism?

"but at the high end of the sensitivity spectrum you are going to get offended by something in pretty much every thread."

Could that be because it's been so acceptable?

but the question remains as to whether it being acceptable is right or not. Not everything that people find acceptable is unacceptable.

Racism is the belief that genetic differences in ability between the races is the cause of (observed or invented) inequality. Racial prejudice is the expression of this belief on many levels, from slurs and innuendo to beatings and lynchings.

I don't think people here have any trouble seeing the steps from saying the n-word to participating in a lynch mob. People do have trouble seeing the steps from what some people see as sexist to raping or killing women. And therein, I think, lies the answer to your question.

Really, you hadn't noticed before?