Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

the running joke "why do you hate America"

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:04 AM
Original message
the running joke "why do you hate America"
we mock this question because our criticisms don't in fact mean we hate America.

The vast majority of critics of America actually LOVE America.

When the RWers ask this, they are establishing a crude strawman which deserves ridicule.

DU should be ashamed that the thread expressing hatred for the country got 49 recs (as I type). The people that recommended that thread are out of touch with progressives. They are. It's a dirty lie that we progressives hate America, and those people are helping perpetuate that lie.

So from this point forward on DU, "why do you hate America" is not a joke.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. You speak for yourself. The thread says America sucks. What he meant is that the
actions taken in our (American citizens') names are shameful and suck. I agree 100% with that. I really have no 'love' for America. Is it a beautiful country, in our national parks and not the slums of our cities? Yes. Have there been 'great' Americans; thinkers, democratic founders, scientists, writers, educators, speakers? Yes. Our Constitution is one of the greatest documents ever written. But we have failed to live up to the authors' expectations. While many in this country cringe in fear of the 'other' and seek to close down our borders (many on DU as well), I long for all borders to be free around the globe. I seek an exchange of ideas and cultures, not forcing our 'free market' capitalism on others who do not see its 'beauty'. I want and claim to be a citizen of the world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. that's not what he said
what you say is reasonable and defendable and I would think most progressives would generally agree.

The post I'm referring to went further, it made the RW parody of progressives as America haters seem true, which it's not.

(by the way, antiwar people don't hate the troops).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Presumably, you're speaking of this thread?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. did you READ that post???
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 11:35 AM by LSK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. yes
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. then why on earth would you start this thread???
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. did YOU read MY post?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. the Chicago Bulls SUCK this year
But I do not hate them.

There is a difference which you fail to grasp.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. well maybe YOU didn't read the "America sucks" post
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 12:00 PM by Enrique
because he didn't say the Bulls suck this year (which they do), he said the Bulls were founded in suckage, that they fundamentally and irredeemably suck and always have. He said Michael Jordan was only good because the refs let him travel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I guess you missed the middle part of it
"About a hundred years ago, during the gilded age of the robber baron, society said enough: The barons where given a choice, either strive to make life better in general for the masses of people, or continue to shit where they ate and be forced to change their ways. Most chose the latter. Thus people whose with names like Rockefeller, Mellon and Carnegie built an infrastructure for culture and learning that we still are benefiting from to this very day.

They were forced to be the exception when the rule was no longer tenable.

The result helped transform America into a country where the original ideal citizen was expanded to include just about all of us into the franchise.

Somehow, we're backing to shitting where we eat and no one has any inclination to change."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. that passage doesn't support your contention
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. yes it does
It implies that America has had good times and did good things.

But has now slipped up again.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. you're the one cherry-picking from the post
you're right, that passage is positive about that period, but it is the only positive thing it that post and it does not fit in coherently with the rest of the post.

The post is a broadside against the U.S., current and past. You have identified a part of it whose relation to the rest is not clear at all, and is cetrtainly NOT the point of the post, and you claim that it is.

I am responding to "America sucks", not "America has had good times and has slipped up."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. no, I am using that to support the Bulls analogy
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 12:45 PM by LSK
Before Jordan came the Bulls sucked.
America sucked for many when it was formed (slaves and women) and for a large part of its past.

The Bulls were great in the 90s with Jordan (even thou maybe he traveled).
America had its bright spot during the middle 20th century with FDR, WW2 and the 50s boom (even thou we still did bad things such as segregation, Japanese internment camps, etc).

After Jordan left the Bulls sucked.
America is back to sucking again.

I am still a Bulls fan.
I might even still like America.

But both sucked at times.

Do you see the difference?

If not, I quit and you can go celebrate a "win" on an internet messageboard.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. 50 cent words wrapped around ha'penny ideas
'cuz not one word of that makes a bit of goddamned sense?

how can you be forced to choose to make a change?
what is meant by "the rule"? What is meant by "the result"?
they chose to be forced to change their ways? how does that happen?
they chose, or were forced, its not clear which, to change their ways or to continue to shit where they ate, again unclear
but then "somehow" we're "backing"(sic) to shitting where we eat. Clear as fucking mud, all that bullshit.

For the life of me, I am embarrassed that anyone is giving this half-assed thread any credit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer
America (The USA) is not unique in the history of empires. We've reached that stage where we have become dependent on our client states and they are rebelling. Up until Vietnam we were able to keep control. Now we can't but keep struggling to do so which is bankrupting us economically and morally.

Hopefully, we will learn from our latest disasters (Iraq, the economic downturn) to go gracefully.

But, I doubt it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. another reasonable critique of America
also reasonable to question patriotism.

Both good ideas are undermined by the senseless statement that America sucks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Well, I K&R'd that post and had little quarrel with it.
America, in wielding it's power against the powerless, does indeed suck. As do it's predecessors in colonialism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. I am ashamed,
of my country. Citizens of this country have lots to be critical about. Hating American policies that are the major contributing factor to the woes not only of this society but of the world is quite rational. What is obscene is sticking up for a government that promotes such policies. What is obscene is the habit of excerpting one sentence out of context and using it as a bat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. it's the title of the freaking post
not the policies that suck, the country sucks.

Chomsky in the last few years has been strongly emphasizing to his audiences his opinion that America is possibly the freest society on earth, in fact that a lot of the information he presents is available because of our extraordinary public records practices.

He is possibly doing this because he has observed that his critiques are being misunderstood and/or perverted into hatred of the country, which is is NOT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. The title is "America Sucks"
not "I Hate America And Your Mother And Your Little Apple Pie, Too".

realizing that something sucks does NOT automatically equal hatred of everything that other people think the word stands for.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. I have no idea...

We Own The World
Noam Chomsky
ZNet, January 1, 2008

So we had the usual kind of debate going on, which illustrates a very important and pervasive distinction between several types of propaganda systems. To take the ideal types, exaggerating a little: totalitarian states' propaganda is that you better accept it, or else. And "or else" can be of various consequences, depending on the nature of the state. People can actually believe whatever they want as long as they obey. Democratic societies use a different method: they don't articulate the party line. That's a mistake. What they do is presuppose it, then encourage vigorous debate within the framework of the party line. This serves two purposes. For one thing it gives the impression of a free and open society because, after all, we have lively debate. It also instills a propaganda line that becomes something you presuppose, like the air you breathe.

That was the case here. This is a classic illustration. The whole debate about the Iranian "interference" in Iraq makes sense only on one assumption, namely, that "we own the world." If we own the world, then the only question that can arise is that someone else is interfering in a country we have invaded and occupied.
--------------------------------------------

So there is a problem and that problem is that the United States is just not a functioning democracy. Public opinion does not matter and among articulate and elite opinion that is a principle -- it shouldn't matter. The only principle that matters is we own the world and the rest of you shut up, you know, whether you're abroad or at home.

So, yes, there is a potential solution to the very dangerous problem, it's essentially the same solution: do something to turn our own country into a functioning democracy. But that is in radical opposition to the fundamental presupposition of all elite discussions, mainly that we own the world and that these questions don't arise and the public should have no opinion on foreign policy, or any policy.

----------------------
Just a little footnote. How many offensive nuclear armed missiles does the United States have? Well, it turns out to be 10,000. China may now have maybe 400, if you believe the hawks. That proves that they are trying to conquer the world.

It turns out, if you read the international press closely, that the reason China is building up its military capacity is not only because of U.S. aggressiveness all over the place, but the fact that the United States has improved its targeting capacities so it can now destroy missile sites in a much more sophisticated fashion wherever they are, even if they are mobile. So who is trying to conquer the world? Well, obviously the Chinese because since we own it, they are trying to conquer it.

It's all too easy to continue with this indefinitely. Just pick your topic. It's a good exercise to try. This simple principle, "we own the world," is sufficient to explain a lot of the discussion about foreign affairs.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20080101.htm



Cold War II
Noam Chomsky
ZNet, August 27, 2007
--------------------
It is instructive that Washington’s propaganda framework is reflexively accepted, apparently without notice, in US and other Western commentary and reporting, apart from the marginal fringe of what is called ‘the loony left.” What is considered “criticism” is skepticism as to whether all of Washington’s charges about Iranian aggression in Iraq are true. It might be an interesting research project to see how closely the propaganda of Russia, Nazi Germany, and other aggressors and occupiers matched the standards of today’s liberal press and commentators..

The comparisons are of course unfair. Unlike German and Russian occupiers, American forces are in Iraq by right, on the principle, too obvious even to enunciate, that the US owns the world. Therefore, as a matter of elementary logic, the US cannot invade and occupy another country. The US can only defend and liberate others. No other category exists. Predecessors, including the most monstrous, have commonly sworn by the same principle, but again there is an obvious difference: they were Wrong, and we are Right. QED.
------------------------
Under the heading “Secretary Rice’s Mideast mission: contain Iran,” the press reports Rice’s warning that Iran is “the single most important single-country challenge to...US interests in the Middle East.” That is a reasonable judgment. Given the long-standing principle that Washington must do “everything in its power to alter or abolish any regime not openly allied with America,” Iran does pose a unique challenge, and it is natural that the task of containing Iranian influence should be a high priority.
------------------------------
Iran rejects US control of the Middle East, challenging fundamental policy doctrine, but it hardly poses a military threat. On the contrary, it has been the victim of outside powers for years: in recent memory, when the US and Britain overthrew its parliamentary government and installed a brutal tyrant in 1953, and when the US supported Saddam Hussein’s murderous invasion, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Iranians, many with chemical weapons, without the “international community” lifting a finger – something that Iranians do not forget as easily as the perpetrators. And then under severe sanctions as a punishment for disobedience.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20070827.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. that doesn't resemble the "America sucks" post
I love Chomsky's speeches and articles and I find valuable information in them.

Much of the information in the "America sucks" post could have come from Chomsky. Maybe it did.

Chomsky, however, never says "America sucks", though the RW claims he does.

In addition to the "freest country in the world" bit, Chomsky also has been emphasizing repeatedly how he has observed progress since the Vietnam era, pointing to the fact that mass opposition to the Iraq war happened so much more quickly than to the Vietnam war, which took years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. You are offended by..
the word "suck". I don't know what to tell you. I haven't seen any mention of the "freest country in the world bit", or the assumption that the 'global opposition' to the war is a result of a 'free society'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. it's not the word suck
I would feel the same if it were "America is a bad country." It's not the word I'm objecting to, it's the thought.

What do you mean you haven't seen any mention of the "freest country in the world" bit? I mentioned above that Chomsky has been saying this repeatedly in the last couple of years, has been emphasizing it and credits his information to the freedom we enjoy here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. and I haven't seen it...
"Chomsky has been saying this repeatedly in the last couple of years"

But what does that have to do with anything anyway? You dislike certain terms others use to describe their country. I get it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
9. Loving your country and recognizing its flaws
are not incompatable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. exactly
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. What I hate is the difference between what America IS and what it COULD and SHOULD be. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. me too
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
18. Why do you hate america? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. because it sucks
:-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
20. America, FUCK YEAH!
I've lived in Europe, I'll live there again soon. It's nice, but America is cool too, it's got gusto.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
23. "America" hasn't been America since November 22, 1963. (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. Love the concept, hate the perverse reality. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Redbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
32. America does suck. We want it not to suck.
Thats why we are here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
36. Thanks for the heads-up; I K&R'd that other thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
38. We don't "love" it like a 3 year-old loves his Mommy. .
"Mommy is perfect." "Mommy never does anything wrong." "If you say something bad about my Mommy, you are a bad bad person"

Our love is a litte more mature. When we see her veering off her true path of a better future for all her Citizens, and a safer world, we will do everything in our power to bring her back.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
39. What does "LOVE America" mean?
I love my family, I really like my job, I like certain things about USA and others I don't. What does "LOVE America" mean as this is a strawman and deserves ridicule also, in my opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. carp, killed another thread. Hello OP, what does "love america" mean?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
41. You're the one spreading RW lies
because that post did not say "Hate America." You are using a RW meme to attack progressives on the rather shaky grounds that they are supporting a RW meme. What does that make you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC