Note to smokers

Yes I have been highly bemused by the many smokers defending their addiction. Yes, it is an addiction. In fact, one of the strongest addictive agents known to man. Why? Not because tobacco in its natural form is that addictive... oh hell no. It is that addictive by the process that makes essentially crack tobacco... and it is legal. The process, in fact, is not that different from making crack cocaine, and why cocaine is far more addictive than the coca leave.

So here we are at a point where many of you are in denial, just like my father whose habit is fifty years old and running. (Yes he has emphysema, and COPD... and had a triple bypass... and he still smokes, addiction is that strong)

Reality is that your habit can send me to the local emergency room, or the local ICU unit... or the cemetery... due to my asthma.

One of the irritants in your smoke is cyanide. You know where else cyanide was used? Here is a hint, the death chamber at St Quentin State prison in California.

Another one of those major irritants is Carbon Monoxide... yep, may make your lips look a little redder, but that is because it is taking the place of Oxygen... and CO is not conducive to life.

Of course there are about 100 additives in your cigarettes, and most of them are in a list of Hazardous Materials that HAZMAT specialists deal with on a regular basis with.

Now this is not to tell you to stop smoking. I can't tell you to do it, nor will you listen... until you face that choice yourself, I don't expect you to quit. In fact, most of you will die a smoker... again that is the force of physical addiction.

But... I don't want you or need you to smoke in my local restaurant. No, I am not finicky about eating... and tasting my food. I am just finicky about breathing. You know that thing called life and breathing is conducive to life.

Now I would not ban your habit... just as I will never ask to ban alcohol... in fact I am all for legalizing drugs. But I want your habit to be highly regulated and highly taxed... and I would love it if by law the tobacco formula used in your cigs was changed to its natural form. It would be less damaging and chiefly addictive to you. The high may not be as good... but if you chose to quit, it would be that much easier.

:thumbsup:

I quit a month ago and I'm still craving those evil little coffin nails. Reminders like this help keep me on track.

Now, stay out of my bar, and I'll stay out of yours.

Not to say that I don't want to quit at some point, but they make me feel a lot better about what I smoke!

But I still don't subject others to my exhaust. It simply isn't polite.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but what are American Spirits??

point I could not suffer being in the atmosphere and my life changed. I feel cheated. I couldn't get my body and mind to conquer it so that it wouldn't bother me. Funny that no drug company ever came up with an antidote. They could have made as much money as the tobacco companies and all the chemical suppiers.

Where do you live that they still allow smoking in restaurants?

It's been illegal in NY for a couple of years, and I'm curious as to where the anti-smoking legislation has not been passed yet.

- as

I live in, restaurants still have
smoking sections. A new one that
just recently opened has smoking
sections. This is, after all,
tobacco country.

The lobby there most be hella strong.

I'm surprised that more states haven't passed legislation. I was in California last year, and there was no smoking in public places there, either.

- as

We have representatives that are
tobacco farmers. :crazy:

William Brisson, North Carolina House of Representatives
in District 22, which covers all of Bladen County and the
southern portion of Cumberland County.

NC will probably be the last state to pass anything.

- as

I see NC being the last hold out in
imposing any smoking bans. The shift
from tobacco to cotton and other crops
has not come far enough to effectively
overtake the pro-tobacco lobby in the
state.

Kentucky.

It'll be South Carolina that will be the last holdout against the smoking ban in restaurants and bars.

South Carolina is notorious for having the lowest cigarette tax - its at a high of $.07. That's right - 7 cents a pack.

Our legislature is 'considering' a smoking ban in public places, restaurants and cars traveling with children.

My belief is that the ban in cars carrying children will be the part of the legislation that brings the whole thing down.

Which states do not have legislation barring smoking in restaurants?

- as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_United_States

The "white states" have comprehensive statewide bans; the "black states" have none; colors indicate the types of bans in place/proposed. There's a schedule below the graphic map/Venn diagram.

I still read a lot here about smoking in restaurants, and was curious.

I'm in NY, and it's sometimes frustrating to read about smoking in restaurants because it's a non-issue here.

- as

in Texas it is done city by city. I work on the weekends at a diner with no 'no smoking' section. I even work in an office during the week where everyone smokes inside.

It's quite a change coming from the coasts. I walk into a restaurant in Indiana or South Dakota or someplace like that and ask if they have a smoking section and they just look at me funny and say, "Sit wherever you want, hon."

Allegheny County which is where Pittsburgh is tried to ban it nearly 2 years ago but a couple of restaurant owners fought back in court and it was shot down. It also shot down the efforts of some other PA counties/localities. We're still waiting for the stupid legislature to pass a bill - they are still trying to iron out between a strict version that would be an almost total ban and a version that would allow casinos 25% floor area and small bars to have smoking.

The legistlature have been promising this since last July. Perhaps this month it will finally get done but I'm not holding my breath - we have to have one of the most dysfunctional legislatures around.

Some restaurants anticipating a ban have decided to go smoke free on their own. A big round of applause for local chain Eat n' Park who decided to take the step and have reported their sales did not suffer.

And if you can't tell where I stand on this issue I'm with the OP. I don't have a health problem with smoking but having grown up with both parents who basically chain-smoked I loathed the habit since I was a kid.

I've cheered every step that has been taken on banning public smoking!

What a nice thing to wish on fellower DUer's especially since we all recognize that times are hard economically and you specifically mention this is "one of the strongest addictive agents known to man".....I could say more about the mean-spiritedness of this post, but I believe you've said it all yourself.

Edit:spelling

On Second edit:How nice you got 4 recommends before I could finish my spelling edit....perhaps some people should read a bit more for what the context of a post mine mean to a fellow poster?

That part is nec.

in fact alcohol should also be highly taxed

If you can't get the SOCIAL effects your habit has... oh well... and by the way... if we legalize marijuana tomorrow, it should also be highly taxed

Or education, as they do in my state?

Too much tobacco taxation is just the result of shirking by legislators afraid to ask taxpayers to pay for programs they want, so they look for a despised minority to shoulder the burden.

This is why I shed few tears for SCHIP. If we think child health care is important, we can all chip in, not just smokers.

many kids are sick due to tobacco, so that one actually made sense

sorry but it is.

does not affect children?

Okie dokie

How many links do you want to SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH? And that was the rational

I am saying your statement that funding schip from tobacco taxes made sense since some kids got ill from smoke. Please.
Kids have a myriad of illnesses and it makes absolutely no sense to fund it from a tax that will wax and wane depending on how many people are smoking. It is a regressive tax that no Dem should support. Schip should be fully funded by everyone.

and perceived "Sin" taxes??? How about highly taxing at LEAST one thing used mostly like by the better off? Remember luxury boat taxes and the outrage when for the first time a tax targeted people who already had too much cash??? Remember how quickly they where recinded when the makers of the boats and the rich bitched? Now look at automobiles as a simile-suppose the tax was only on cars over half a million-I wonder if we wouldn't as quickly have the same scenario-the screaming about class warfare and unfairness.Here's a more fair scenario,no taxes or minimal taxes on tobacco OR marijuana since one is addictive and the other beneficial...Let's target the real wasteful shit-vehicles that get under 20 miles per gallon,houses over 5000 sq. ft. and private jets??? Why not pate and champaign and caviar and all the baubles that everyone admits are just to invoke class???In a world where "fees" are imposed that bear no relationship to costs (think $100 to register your car for a year-for a clerk to punch "no change" into a computer and hand you a pair of one inch stickers) and real estate taxes bear no relationship to reality other than "We need the cash" allowing regression is the last thing we should do......

and I agree with you... those luxury taxes should be on the books as well

for you? Why isn't it legal for me to open and operate a restaurant that is exclusively for smokers?

The anti-smoking fanatics will say they have a right to go in every bar and every restaurant everywhere so anything that offends their delicate bodies must be banned. They will say that people have to work there because of course there are no other jobs anywhere to be found. I have heard all the nonsense a hundred times.

on your wait staff.

That is why

60% of all restaurant employees smoke, it shouldn't be a problem finding those who would fill the jobs.

one thing is to be exposed to it when YOU smoke, another to be exposed to it for eight hours. Yes, there are these pesky public heath studies that were the reason for the bans in restaurants to begin with.

As to your smoking numbers.. well the youth are also picking it up at an alarming rate...

The point is people don't have to apply for jobs in an all smoking bar -- now do they? Or is that the only job in town?

were agenda driven. Thanks for the clarification

I guess their heart studies are also agenda driven

Hell, science is agenda driven...

Thanks for the clarification. Now I know why George Bush has no problem selling bunk science to Americans

But of course you don't bother saying who financed them did you? Do you think everyone worked for free? Who paid them? Where did the grants come from? Besides my J.D. I hold a Master of Science degree and I participated in agenda driven studies which made their way into "peer reviewed" journals. Researchers play with statistics because they know people don't understand how they are generated. You are right -- there is a lot of bunk science.

It's true.

I roll my own, Amer. Spirit for the reason they use no additives. Also, it's harder to have to roll one than to just pick one up, so it's harder to smoke as much.

And yes, nicotine is the most addictive substance known. Success rates for quiting heroin and alcohol are better than for nicotine.

There are no inpatient rehabs for nicotine addiction. It's a double addiction, in that there is both the physical addiction and the psychological addiction.

In the past I've quit for a year, and a year and half. The way I did it was to go back packing for a couple of weeks far into the mountains and only brought enough drug for a day or two. By severing the physical addiction I was able to then deal effectively with the psychological addiction. It wasn't easy but it's nothing compared to the double mutually re-enforcing of both the physical and the psychological addiction.

I think someone could make a pile of money opening up and operating an in-patient rehab for nicotine. Maybe in a tropical or other beautiful location associated with low stress. They could offer behavioral modification classes, exercise opportunities, and good food. People could see it as a combination vacation and quit smoking opportunity. Many times addict rationalize that if they weren't under stress they would have a better shot at kicking the addiction. And nicotine use definitely lowers stress levels in the addict, temporarily.

There are no inpatient rehabs for nicotine addiction

yes, there are. try the Caron Foundation in Pennsylvania.

It was also the early 1990's when I still worked there. Actually I did investigate a while back and found a few, but none nearby. I wonder if companies would grant medical leaves to employees to get inpatient care to quit smoking. People who have never smoked or smoked only lightly think it's easy to quit.

you are worried about a couple of states distance?

it is a highly addictive drug... and I count my blessings that I never got hooked

reality is that these clinics should be part of a national health plan and available as part of it.

It makes way too much public health sense, I know

I also realize that it's difficult to imagine how powerful this drug is unless you've been addicted. I'm glad I got that monkey off my back. Monkeys are like that - hard to get off your back and even harder to get them out of the White House.

mind your own business. They're not your lungs, and it's not 'your' local restaurant, it belongs to the person who owns it, and they should be the ones to decide. If you don't like that, don't eata there. Thanks. :hi:

affects me and can send me to the local Emergency Room... so yes, IT IS MY BUSINESS

jeezusfuckingchrist...

from my dad in my apartment?

I really want to hear this one

Oh jesus fucking christ to you too by the way.

Tell your dad not to smoke there. Seems simple enough. Certainly doesn't require a law.

:eyes:

but WON'T tell his dad he can't in HIS, Nadin's, apartment?

Did everyone notice that?

Fucking. HYPOCRITE.

any other questions you'd like to ask?

Hell, WE UNDERSTAND why he has not quit.

Did you notice the beam in your eye before you posted this screed of a thread?

but as a former health care worker, cigarettes (and alcohol) are a public health concern.

And yes, I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WIHT TOBACCO SMOKE... I like breathing, something about life

It's that it is a screed, objectively speaking.

You missed my point. My point was, before you go preaching at other people about how much it bothers you, perhaps you ought to take care of the 'problem' in your own home first. I can't take your OP seriously because you can't clean house when your broom is dirty.

If you won't put your father out when he smokes- if you won't lay down the law in your own home about people smoking inside it- then I also can't take you seriously when you say your asthma is agitated by cigarette smoke. If it were as bad as you claim, you wouldn't tolerate anyone smoking in your home, family or not. Your 'condition' makes no distinction between family and not-family.

(If you expect me to take you seriously, you have to put your father out of your home when he wants to light up. It's just that simple.)

Okie, dokie

"tell your father to step out before you tell other people to do the same thing" to "go to the hospital"?

and it IS an issue

If you believe it is a screed, so be it

In the context of your problem with second-hand smoke in your own home, it sounds as though you're frustrated about that and you're coming on DU and taking it out on the smokers here.

It changes the whole nature of your argument, and makes it sound like you want to punish all smokers in retaliation for the behavior of your father. You gotta solve that problem first if you ask me - because it's a little harder to work up sympathy for someone who wants to change all smokers' behavior when you can't even control the one smoker who sounds like he's making you the most uncomfortable.

- as

wheel chair bound

As to smoking in general, YES IT IS A PROBLEM for more than just me.

And second hand smoke is an issue

As I said, if you feel this is a screed, SO BE IT!

I realize it must be very frustrating for you.

- as

before we fly them home... and down there it will be harder... stairs, wheelchair bound, I will be avoiding a whole floor

:eyes:

Fucking ridiculous. As is the inevitable bleating about how "this is how the Constitution is destroyed" and the comparisons to the drug war.

Last time I checked, cigarettes were still legal. Cigarette smokers weren't doing mandatory minimum sentences with non-violent users of other drugs.

Personally, I think we should end the drug war. Drugs like alcohol, nicotine, and pot should be legal- regulated, and as you say, taxed. But just because something is legal doesn't mean you can do it under every circumstance; in every setting that one would want. Telling smokers they have to go outside of enclosed, public buildings before lighting up is reasonable.

And I lost my dad to lung cancer- you have my sympathy.

I have no desire to light up in a public place, because it would catch me a nice fine.

But if outside is where I have to go to smoke, I think I should be able to do so without people complaining about that. Fair's fair.

- as

(I've seen smokers do that, even though there are regs against it here) but generally, no- I think restricting it indoors is reasonable; outdoors is not.

I'm not interested in keeping anyone else from smoking. Your body, your business.

And I was doing that before there was any type of ban in place.

Some of us are a little responsible. :)

- as

There's just a few really clueless ones.

The generalizations get tiresome sometimes.

IMO, one should not include all smokers, just as you shouldn't make a sweeping generalization about any group.

People are different. Broad brushes rarely work.

- as

Cigarette smokers have fewer restrictions placed on us than corporations do from environmental regulations. So, unless one wants to submit that environmental laws are also "draconian", "fascist" or any other but of dramatic hyperbole we use to justify our addiction, we pretty much need to shut the f*ck up about.

I neither defend nor justify my addiction. I realize it for what it is and take to heart that little line from Henry V: "Will you yield and this avoid; or guilty in defense be thus destroyed?"

I smoke on the balcony of my apartment, and in the delegated (outdoor) smoking section at my office-- and that's good enough for me.

stores. there was no place to hide. My grandpas (2), uncles (4), aunts (2), cousins (10) and father have died or are going to die of lung cancer from smoking. Those are the ones in my family that I know of. That doesn't count friends of our family.

I find myself without mercy about smoking. I don't feel I have to feel bad about it either. Until you've seen people die of lung cancer because of smoking, go through treatments and/or live with this level of suffering, you cannot know.

People walking through the grocery stores with a cigarette hanging out of their mouth. Yuk! I also remember seeing ashes on produce that fell off the ends of the cigarettes as the smokers leaned over the lettuce or whatever, with that burning tube of tobacco stuck in their face. Cigarette butts smashed in the isles too. I wonder if those same people throw their ciggie butts on the floor in their own home. Oh, and those lovely people who dump their car ashtrays into the street while they are stopped at a light. Or pitch their burning butts out the car window.

down was met with "are you nuts? It's freezing out there!"

Thankfully, things have changed.

I remember those hot days with the ac on and the windows rolled up. Gag! It literally made me sick to my stomach. The only thing I would have changed about my childhood would have been that my parents didn't smoke. Oh, and that I had a pony!

...ashtrays emptied in parking lots...

Ah, the good old days. I remember them well. I used to keep an ashtray for my friends. In college I carried matches for them too.

I also remember when the tide turned, around 35 years ago, maybe more. Without my asking, friends started sitting in the doorway of my apartment and blowing the smoke outside. Eventually newer friends started asking if I minded if they lit up in my apartment, and I found myself actually saying "Yes, I do mind, thank you so much for asking." I got rid of my ashtray when I moved in 1979, because it never got used any more.

Stores started posting signs asking people not to smoke inside. Now I don't even see the signs that much any more, really, because smokers just stopped doing it. There's less damage to the merchandise, too.

There are fewer smokers these days, or so I've heard. I'm really glad about that.

I, too, have a family history with my parents and grandparents all being smokers. I've watched family members struggle with the addiction, can pinpoint which cancer, which heart disease, was very likely a result of smoking. Which miscarriages. My brother has emphysema. My kids both started at 12 or 13 (turned them both into practiced liars for several years, I can tell you). My son, now 30, was able to finally quit for good. My daughter, now 32, will struggle with this addiction forever.

I've said it many times before: what sympathy I have is for the addicts of this legal substance. But there's a special place in the bowels of Hell for the manufacturers and advertisers -- the pushers. Did you know that the Joe Camel campaign's target audience was kids? Sure worked on mine.

Hekate

for these people. They knew what they were doing, and they also knew that their formulas were highly addictive

Good to know one of your kids has gotten the monkey off his back

so abused by cigarette smoke these days. Maybe you should be directing your efforts to ban smoking in restaurants in your area rather than spewing your hatred across the net to people who aren't likely to help you...especially in light of your attitude. Actually, I am amazed at how cooperative smokers have been to the non-smoking rules.

You know there are lots of noxious agents in the real world. I have been literally taken to the floor in breathing attacks in the laundry soap aisles of grocery stores. I have to leave. But I'm not on DU complaining about it like anti-smokers are too much of the time. This topic might be more appropriately posted in the Lounge.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6704205

Interviews
Living 'A Life in Smoke'
Listen Now <5 min 24 sec>

All Things Considered, December 31, 2006 · Smoking can be one of the hardest habits in the world to kick. Memoirist Julia Hansen, author of A Life in Smoke, tried to quit by -- among other things -- chaining herself to a radiator. She tells Debbie Elliott about it.

currently trying to quit. most smokers are in depp denial, and of course, addicted to nicotine. you have to be in denial to keep smoking when you know that is causes lung and other cancers, and a host of other illnesses. i have to quit in order to stay alive, and it's still tough.

I SEEM TO HAVE A CRAVING BUT NOT FOR CIGS. IT IS STRANGE

and good luck

I transferred my nicotine cravings to hot fudge sundaes for a short time while on Chantix. I hate to campaign for Big Pharma, but Chantix was a miracle drug in getting me off the cigarettes. Keep up the good work!

RECIPE FOR A CIGARETTE The Big List In the 4000 chemicals in cigarette tobacco, there are 43 known carcinogens. Some will be detailed as to what they are used for in the box below this huge listing of ingredients & additives for cigarettes. The lungs of smokers, puffing a daily ration of 20 to 60 low to high tar cigarettes, collect an annual deposit of one-quarter to one and one-half pounds of the gooey black material, amounting to a total of 15 to 90 million pounds of carcinogen-packed tar for the aggregate of current American smokers.

Acetanisole, Acetic Acid, Acetoin, Acetophenone, 6-Acetoxydihydrotheaspirane, 2-Acetyl-3- Ethylpyrazine, 2-Acetyl-5-Methylfuran, Acetylpyrazine, 2-Acetylpyridine, 3-Acetylpyridine, 2-Acetylthiazole, Aconitic Acid, dl-Alanine, Alfalfa Extract, Allspice Extract, Oleoresin, And Oil, Allyl Hexanoate, Allyl Ionone, Almond Bitter Oil, Ambergris Tincture, Ammonia, Ammonium Bicarbonate, Ammonium Hydroxide, Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic, Ammonium Sulfide, Amyl Alcohol, Amyl Butyrate, Amyl Formate, Amyl Octanoate, alpha-Amylcinnamaldehyde, Amyris Oil, trans-Anethole, Angelica Root Extract, Oil and Seed Oil, Anise, Anise Star, Extract and Oils, Anisyl Acetate, Anisyl Alcohol, Anisyl Formate, Anisyl Phenylacetate, Apple Juice Concentrate, Extract, and Skins, Apricot Extract and Juice Concentrate, 1-Arginine, Asafetida Fluid Extract And Oil, Ascorbic Acid, 1-Asparagine Monohydrate, 1-Aspartic Acid, Balsam Peru and Oil, Basil Oil, Bay Leaf, Oil and Sweet Oil, Beeswax White, Beet Juice Concentrate, Benzaldehyde,Benzaldehyde Glyceryl Acetal, Benzoic Acid, Benzoin, Benzoin Resin, Benzophenone, Benzyl Alcohol, Benzyl Benzoate, Benzyl Butyrate, Benzyl Cinnamate, Benzyl Propionate, Benzyl Salicylate, Bergamot Oil, Bisabolene, Black Currant Buds Absolute, Borneol, Bornyl Acetate, Buchu Leaf Oil, 1,3-Butanediol, 2,3-Butanedione, 1-Butanol, 2-Butanone, 4(2-Butenylidene)-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One, Butter, Butter Esters, and Butter Oil, Butyl Acetate, Butyl Butyrate, Butyl Butyryl Lactate, Butyl Isovalerate, Butyl Phenylacetate, Butyl Undecylenate, 3-Butylidenephthalide, Butyric Acid, Cadinene, Caffeine, Calcium Carbonate, Camphene, Cananga Oil, Capsicum Oleoresin, Caramel Color, Caraway Oil, Carbon Dioxide, Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder, Carob Bean and Extract, beta-Carotene, Carrot Oil, Carvacrol, 4-Carvomenthenol, 1-Carvone, beta-Caryophyllene, beta-Caryophyllene Oxide, Cascarilla Oil and Bark Extract, Cassia Bark Oil, Cassie Absolute and Oil, Castoreum Extract,Tincture and Absolute,Cedar Leaf Oil, Cedarwood Oil Terpenes and Virginiana, Cedrol, Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin, Cellulose Fiber, Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract, Chicory Extract, Chocolate, Cinnamaldehyde, Cinnamic Acid, Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract, Cinnamyl Acetate, Cinnamyl Alcohol, Cinnamyl Cinnamate, Cinnamyl Isovalerate, Cinnamyl Propionate, Citral, Citric Acid, Citronella Oil, dl-Citronellol, Citronellyl Butyrate, Citronellyl Isobutyrate, Civet Absolute, Clary Oil, Clover Tops, Red Solid Extract, Cocoa, Cocoa Shells, Extract, Distillate And Powder, Coconut Oil, Coffee, Cognac White and Green Oil, Copaiba Oil, Coriander Extract and Oil, Corn Oil, Corn Silk, Costus Root Oil, Cubeb Oil, Cuminaldehyde, para-Cymene, 1-Cysteine, Dandelion Root Solid Extract, Davana Oil, 2-trans, 4-trans-Decadienal, delta-Decalactone, gamma-Decalactone, Decanal, Decanoic Acid, 1-Decanol, 2-Decenal, Dehydromenthofurolactone, Diethyl Malonate, Diethyl Sebacate, 2,3-Diethylpyrazine,Dihydro Anethole, 5,7-Dihydro-2-Methylthieno(3,4-D) Pyrimidine, Dill Seed Oil and Extract, meta-Dimethoxybenzene, para-Dimethoxybenzene, 2,6-Dimethoxyphenol, Dimethyl Succinate, 3,4-Dimethyl-1,2-Cyclopentanedione, 3,5- Dimethyl-1,2-Cyclopentanedione, 3,7-Dimethyl-1,3,6-Octatriene, 4,5-Dimethyl-3-Hydroxy-2,5-Dihydrofuran-2-One, 6,10-Dimethyl-5,9-Undecadien-2-One, 3,7-Dimethyl-6-Octenoic Acid, 2,4-Dimethylacetophenone, alpha,para-Dimethylbenzyl Alcohol, alpha,alpha-Dimethylphenethyl Acetate, alpha,alpha Dimethylphenethyl Butyrate, 2,3-Dimethylpyrazine,2,5-Dimethylpyrazine, 2,6-Dimethylpyrazine, Dimethyltetrahydrobenzofuranone, delta-Dodecalactone, gamma-Dodecalactone, para-Ethoxybenzaldehyde, Ethyl 10-Undecenoate, Ethyl 2-Methylbutyrate, Ethyl Acetate, Ethyl Acetoacetate, Ethyl Alcohol, Ethyl Benzoate, Ethyl Butyrate, Ethyl Cinnamate, Ethyl Decanoate, Ethyl Fenchol, Ethyl Furoate, Ethyl Heptanoate, Ethyl Hexanoate, Ethyl Isovalerate, Ethyl Lactate, Ethyl Laurate, Ethyl Levulinate, Ethyl Maltol,Ethyl Methyl Phenylglycidate, Ethyl Myristate, Ethyl Nonanoate, Ethyl Octadecanoate, Ethyl Octanoate, Ethyl Oleate, Ethyl Palmitate, Ethyl Phenylacetate, Ethyl Propionate, Ethyl Salicylate, Ethyl trans-2-Butenoate, Ethyl Valerate, Ethyl Vanillin, 2-Ethyl (or Methyl)-(3,5 and 6)-Methoxypyrazine, 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol, 3-Ethyl -2 -Hydroxy-2-Cyclopenten-1-One, 2-Ethyl-3, (5 or 6)-Dimethylpyrazine, 5-Ethyl-3-Hydroxy-4-Methyl-2(5H)-Furanone, 2-Ethyl-3-Methylpyrazine, 4-Ethylbenzaldehyde, 4-Ethylguaiacol, para-Ethylphenol, 3-Ethylpyridine, Eucalyptol, Farnesol, D-Fenchone, Fennel Sweet Oil, Fenugreek, Extract, Resin, and Absolute, Fig Juice Concentrate, Food Starch Modified, Furfuryl Mercaptan, 4-(2-Furyl)-3-Buten-2-One, Galbanum Oil, Genet Absolute, Gentian Root Extract, Geraniol, Geranium Rose Oil, Geranyl Acetate, Geranyl Butyrate, Geranyl Formate, Geranyl Isovalerate, Geranyl Phenylacetate, Ginger Oil and Oleoresin, 1-Glutamic Acid, 1-Glutamine, Glycerol, Glycyrrhizin Ammoniated, Grape Juice Concentrate,Guaiac Wood Oil, Guaiacol, Guar Gum, 2,4-Heptadienal, gamma-Heptalactone, Heptanoic Acid, 2-Heptanone, 3-Hepten-2-One, 2-Hepten-4-One, 4-Heptenal, trans -2-Heptenal, Heptyl Acetate, omega-6-Hexadecenlactone, gamma-Hexalactone, Hexanal, Hexanoic Acid, 2-Hexen-1-Ol, 3-Hexen-1-Ol, cis-3-Hexen-1-Yl Acetate, 2-Hexenal, 3-Hexenoic Acid, trans-2-Hexenoic Acid, cis-3-Hexenyl Formate, Hexyl 2-Methylbutyrate, Hexyl Acetate, Hexyl Alcohol, Hexyl Phenylacetate, 1-Histidine, Honey, Hops Oil, Hydrolyzed Milk Solids, Hydrolyzed Plant Proteins, 5-Hydroxy-2,4-Decadienoic Acid delta- Lactone, 4-Hydroxy-2,5-Dimethyl-3(2H)-Furanone, 2-Hydroxy-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One, 4-Hydroxy -3-Pentenoic Acid Lactone, 2-Hydroxy-4-Methylbenzaldehyde, 4-Hydroxybutanoic Acid Lactone, Hydroxycitronellal, 6-Hydroxydihydrotheaspirane, 4-(para-Hydroxyphenyl)-2-Butanone, Hyssop Oil, Immortelle Absolute and Extract, alpha-Ionone, beta-Ionone, alpha-Irone, Isoamyl Acetate, Isoamyl Benzoate, Isoamyl Butyrate, Isoamyl Cinnamate,Isoamyl Formate, Isoamyl Hexanoate, Isoamyl Isovalerate, Isoamyl Octanoate, Isoamyl Phenylacetate, Isobornyl Acetate, Isobutyl Acetate, Isobutyl Alcohol, Isobutyl Cinnamate, Isobutyl Phenylacetate, Isobutyl Salicylate, 2-Isobutyl-3-Methoxypyrazine, alpha-Isobutylphenethyl Alcohol, Isobutyraldehyde, Isobutyric Acid, d,l-Isoleucine, alpha-Isomethylionone, 2-Isopropylphenol, Isovaleric Acid, Jasmine Absolute, Concrete and Oil, Kola Nut Extract, Labdanum Absolute and Oleoresin, Lactic Acid, Lauric Acid, Lauric Aldehyde, Lavandin Oil, Lavender Oil, Lemon Oil and Extract, Lemongrass Oil, 1-Leucine, Levulinic Acid, Licorice Root, Fluid, Extract and Powder, Lime Oil, Linalool, Linalool Oxide, Linalyl Acetate, Linden Flowers, Lovage Oil And Extract, 1-Lysine, Mace Powder, Extract and Oil, Magnesium Carbonate, Malic Acid, Malt and Malt Extract, Maltodextrin, Maltol, Maltyl Isobutyrate, Mandarin Oil, Maple Syrup and Concentrate, Mate Leaf, Absolute and Oil, para-Mentha-8-Thiol-3-One, Menthol, Menthone,Menthyl Acetate, dl-Methionine, Methoprene, 2-Methoxy-4-Methylphenol, 2-Methoxy-4-Vinylphenol, para-Methoxybenzaldehyde, 1-(para-Methoxyphenyl)-1-Penten-3-One, 4-(para-Methoxyphenyl)-2-Butanone, 1-(para-Methoxyphenyl)-2-Propanone, Methoxypyrazine, Methyl 2-Furoate, Methyl 2-Octynoate, Methyl 2-Pyrrolyl Ketone, Methyl Anisate, Methyl Anthranilate, Methyl Benzoate, Methyl Cinnamate, Methyl Dihydrojasmonate, Methyl Ester of Rosin, Partially Hydrogenated, Methyl Isovalerate, Methyl Linoleate (48%), Methyl Linolenate (52%) Mixture, Methyl Naphthyl Ketone, Methyl Nicotinate, Methyl Phenylacetate, Methyl Salicylate, Methyl Sulfide, 3-Methyl-1-Cyclopentadecanone, 4-Methyl-1-Phenyl-2-Pentanone, 5-Methyl-2-Phenyl-2-Hexenal, 5-Methyl-2-Thiophenecarboxaldehyde, 6-Methyl-3,-5-Heptadien-2-One, 2-Methyl-3-(para-Isopropylphenyl) Propionaldehyde, 5-Methyl-3-Hexen-2-One, 1-Methyl-3Methoxy-4-Isopropylbenzene, 4-Methyl-3-Pentene-2-One, 2-Methyl-4-Phenylbutyraldehyde, 6-Methyl-5-Hepten-2-One, 4-Methyl-5-Thiazoleethanol,4-Methyl-5-Vinylthiazole, Methyl-alpha-Ionone, Methyl-trans-2-Butenoic Acid, 4-Methylacetophenone, para-Methylanisole, alpha-Methylbenzyl Acetate, alpha-Methylbenzyl Alcohol, 2-Methylbutyraldehyde, 3-Methylbutyraldehyde, 2-Methylbutyric Acid, alpha-Methylcinnamaldehyde, Methylcyclopentenolone, 2-Methylheptanoic Acid, 2-Methylhexanoic Acid, 3-Methylpentanoic Acid, 4-Methylpentanoic Acid, 2-Methylpyrazine, 5-Methylquinoxaline, 2-Methyltetrahydrofuran-3-One, (Methylthio)Methylpyrazine (Mixture Of Isomers), 3-Methylthiopropionaldehyde, Methyl 3-Methylthiopropionate, 2-Methylvaleric Acid, Mimosa Absolute and Extract, Molasses Extract and Tincture, Mountain Maple Solid Extract, Mullein Flowers, Myristaldehyde, Myristic Acid, Myrrh Oil, beta-Napthyl Ethyl Ether, Nerol, Neroli Bigarde Oil, Nerolidol, Nona-2-trans,6-cis-Dienal, 2,6-Nonadien-1-Ol, gamma-Nonalactone, Nonanal, Nonanoic Acid, Nonanone, trans-2-Nonen-1-Ol, 2-Nonenal, Nonyl Acetate, Nutmeg Powder and Oil, Oak Chips Extract and Oil,Oak Moss Absolute, 9,12-Octadecadienoic Acid (48%) And 9,12,15-Octadecatrienoic Acid (52%), delta-Octalactone, gamma-Octalactone, Octanal, Octanoic Acid, 1-Octanol, 2-Octanone, 3-Octen-2-One, 1-Octen-3-Ol, 1-Octen-3-Yl Acetate, 2-Octenal, Octyl Isobutyrate, Oleic Acid , Olibanum Oil, Opoponax Oil And Gum, Orange Blossoms Water, Absolute, and Leaf Absolute, Orange Oil and Extract, Origanum Oil, Orris Concrete Oil and Root Extract, Palmarosa Oil, Palmitic Acid, Parsley Seed Oil, Patchouli Oil, omega-Pentadecalactone, 2,3-Pentanedione, 2-Pentanone, 4-Pentenoic Acid, 2-Pentylpyridine, Pepper Oil, Black And White, Peppermint Oil, Peruvian (Bois De Rose) Oil, Petitgrain Absolute, Mandarin Oil and Terpeneless Oil, alpha-Phellandrene, 2-Phenenthyl Acetate, Phenenthyl Alcohol, Phenethyl Butyrate, Phenethyl Cinnamate, Phenethyl Isobutyrate, Phenethyl Isovalerate, Phenethyl Phenylacetate, Phenethyl Salicylate, 1-Phenyl-1-Propanol, 3-Phenyl-1-Propanol, 2-Phenyl-2-Butenal, 4-Phenyl-3-Buten-2-Ol,4-Phenyl-3-Buten-2-One, Phenylacetaldehyde, Phenylacetic Acid, 1-Phenylalanine, 3-Phenylpropionaldehyde, 3-Phenylpropionic Acid, 3-Phenylpropyl Acetate, 3-Phenylpropyl Cinnamate, 2-(3-Phenylpropyl)Tetrahydrofuran, Phosphoric Acid, Pimenta Leaf Oil, Pine Needle Oil, Pine Oil, Scotch, Pineapple Juice Concentrate, alpha-Pinene, beta-Pinene, D-Piperitone, Piperonal, Pipsissewa Leaf Extract, Plum Juice, Potassium Sorbate, 1-Proline, Propenylguaethol, Propionic Acid, Propyl Acetate, Propyl para-Hydroxybenzoate, Propylene Glycol, 3-Propylidenephthalide, Prune Juice and Concentrate, Pyridine, Pyroligneous Acid And Extract, Pyrrole, Pyruvic Acid, Raisin Juice Concentrate, Rhodinol, Rose Absolute and Oil, Rosemary Oil, Rum, Rum Ether, Rye Extract, Sage, Sage Oil, and Sage Oleoresin, Salicylaldehyde, Sandalwood Oil, Yellow, Sclareolide, Skatole, Smoke Flavor, Snakeroot Oil, Sodium Acetate, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Bicarbonate, Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Hydroxide, Solanone, Spearmint Oil, Styrax Extract, Gum and Oil, Sucrose Octaacetate, Sugar Alcohols, Sugars, Tagetes Oil, Tannic Acid, Tartaric Acid, Tea Leaf and Absolute, alpha-Terpineol, Terpinolene, Terpinyl Acetate, 5,6,7,8-Tetrahydroquinoxaline, 1,5,5,9-Tetramethyl-13-Oxatricyclo(8.3.0.0(4,9))Tridecane, 2,3,4,5, and 3,4,5,6-Tetramethylethyl-Cyclohexanone, 2,3,5,6-Tetramethylpyrazine, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Thiazole, 1-Threonine, Thyme Oil, White and Red, Thymol, Tobacco Extracts, Tochopherols (mixed), Tolu Balsam Gum and Extract, Tolualdehydes, para-Tolyl 3-Methylbutyrate, para-Tolyl Acetaldehyde, para-Tolyl Acetate, para-Tolyl Isobutyrate, para-Tolyl Phenylacetate, Triacetin, 2-Tridecanone, 2-Tridecenal, Triethyl Citrate, 3,5,5-Trimethyl -1-Hexanol, para,alpha,alpha-Trimethylbenzyl Alcohol, 4-(2,6,6-Trimethylcyclohex-1-Enyl)But-2-En-4-One, 2,6,6-Trimethylcyclohex-2-Ene-1,4-Dione, 2,6,6-Trimethylcyclohexa-1,3-Dienyl Methan, 4-(2,6,6-Trimethylcyclohexa-1,3-Dienyl)But-2-En-4-One,2,2,6-Trimethylcyclohexanone, 2,3,5-Trimethylpyrazine, 1-Tyrosine, delta-Undercalactone, gamma-Undecalactone, Undecanal, 2-Undecanone, 10-Undecenal, Urea, Valencene, Valeraldehyde, Valerian Root Extract, Oil and Powder, Valeric Acid, gamma-Valerolactone, Valine, Vanilla Extract And Oleoresin, Vanillin, Veratraldehyde, Vetiver Oil, Vinegar, Violet Leaf Absolute, Walnut Hull Extract, Water, Wheat Extract And Flour, Wild Cherry Bark Extract, Wine and Wine Sherry, Xanthan Gum, 3,4-Xylenol, Yeast


Here are the some of the toxic ingredients in cigarettes.

Keep in mind that the product saccharine has been a controversy for years and regulated by the government... Why are cigarettes with these deadly ingredients still not regulated or banned in spite of over 450,000 deaths from smoking per year in this country alone? And how many people has saccharine killed?

Ammonia: Household cleaner
Angelica root extract: Known to cause cancer in animals
Arsenic: Used in rat poisons
Benzene: Used in making dyes, synthetic rubber
Butane: Gas; used in lighter fluid
Carbon monoxide: Poisonous gas
Cadmium: Used in batteries
Cyanide: Deadly poison
DDT: A banned insecticide
Ethyl Furoate: Causes liver damage in animals
Lead: Poisonous in high doses
Formaldehiyde: Used to preserve dead specimens
Methoprene: Insecticide
Megastigmatrienone: Chemical naturally found in grapefruit juice
Maltitol: Sweetener for diabetics Napthalene: Ingredient in mothballs
Methyl isocyanate: Its accidental release killed 2000 people in Bhopal, India in 1984 Polonium: Cancer-causing radioactive element

So where did you hear that cigarettes are harmless? Think about the above "toxic waste dump" next time you have an urge for a cigarette. Ahhhh! Won't your lungs feel goooood?!

http://quitclinic.tripod.com/quit1/id31.html

First they ban cigs, now it's feeding fat people. Halliburton Happy Camps for the non-perfect American can't be far off.

Three legislators want to make it illegal for restaurants to serve obese customers in Mississippi.
House Bill No. 282, which was introduced this month, says: Any food establishment to which this section applies shall not be allowed to serve food to any person who is obese, based on criteria prescribed by the State Department of Health after consultation with the Mississippi Council on Obesity Prevention and Management established under Section 41-101-1 or its successor. The State Department of Health shall prepare written materials that describe and explain the criteria for determining whether a person is obese, and shall provide those materials to all food establishments to which this section applies. A food establishment shall be entitled to rely on the criteria for obesity in those written materials when determining whether or not it is allowed to serve food to any person.
The proposal would allow health inspectors to yank the permit from any restaurant that "repeatedly" feeds extremely overweight customers.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/02/bill-would-make.html

I quit smoking thanks to Chantix three months ago, but I'm still easily offended at those who go off the deep end on anti-smoking. I was always a responsible and considerate smoker and legislation went much too far in my opinion. On the bright side, cigs will probably be cheaper when they become street drugs. At least they won't be taxed!

For smokers who do want to quit, I smoked for most of 30 years @ 2-3/packs a day and tried everything to quit. I found quitting on Chantix to be quite easy, though I didn't quit the 2nd week - I tapered for four weeks. I highly recommend it and it's a HECK of a lot cheaper than smokes. I didn't particularly want to quit and didn't expect to quit, but it was so easy that I did kick the habit.

Good luck all....

(Edited to fix moranic typo.)

have been around for years, and somehow the restaurant industry has survived, even flourished.

Same with bars. The doomsday prophecies of the angry smokers haven't come true. If anything, business is better than ever, and even the smokers have survived having to go outside.

Gee, oddly enough, with all the flailing from smokers about this 'anti-fat' law which isn't going to be passed anyway, no one has noticed that in Mississippi, where they're talking about it, there ARE NO smoking bans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_United_States

...how can that be, if this dead on arrival fat law is part of the grand conspiwacy to oppress smokers by making them go outside?

I support smoking being legal, but I also don't think having smokers go outside to light up="fascism", nor does it translate to "making cigs illegal".

What I did mind was being treated like a 2nd class citizen. I was terribly addicted with no solution (till Chantix). I worked for one of the first companies to ban cigarette smoking on their grounds and it was at least a mile to get out of the complex. I couldn't even smoke in my car. Fair enough. BUT, if I had been caught drinking or smoking a joint, they would have reprimanded me and sent me for rehab treatment. Had I been caught smoking a cigarette, however, I would have been fired on the spot.

Nicotine (and additives) are as (or more) addictive than cocaine. What always bothered me was that there are few in-patient rehab programs for cigarette smokers and there should be many. Treatment would have gone further in solving the problem than banning cigarettes.

Again to smokers... Chantix is the first drug that addresses the addiction center in the brain and I highly recommend it. NOTHING else worked for me and I tried them all several times.

Help should be available for anyone who wants to quit any addiction. I think that's public money well spent.

But specifics of your old job notwithstanding, most of these threads pertain to bans on smoking in indoor, enclosed public buildings. That's what most of the "debate" around this on DU is about, seems to me.

I very clearly recall people saying it would never happen.

I don't remember that at all. I do remember people saying that smoking bans would be a good idea, something I haven't really heard re: obesity bans.

I suppose we all have selective memories to one degree or another...

that cigarettes were just the first of our freedoms to go and that other larger ones would follow. It's all in the conditioning. Turns out he was right.

I'm a smoker, and I've been trying to quit for ages. I've actually been told by recovering heroin addicts that it's easier to quit smack than cigarettes. I'll have to ask my doc about this new approach.

I also wonder where the heck the OP lives that he/she still encounters smoke in restaurants. It hasn't been allowed there, or in workplaces, for decades here in Florida. Like most smokers these days, I try to be considerate. I don't light up indoors, except in my own place, and even try to keep my distance from others outdoors when feeding my filthy addiction.

It's an unhealthy, disgusting habit, and I'd be the first to admit it. But some anti-smokers are over the top. I've had people cross the street to tell me that my smoke bothered them (and all these vehicles spewing exhaust between us didn't?). Back in the Bad Old Days, my college library and student union allowed smoking in a segregated lounge for smokers, and sure enough some people would come in and then complain that our smoke bothered them. There were several non-smoking lounges as well, so having a place to relax and put your feet up that was smoke-free wasn't an issue. It was more like a moral imperative on some people's part to preach to the heathen.

That said, I hope to soon be a non-smoker myself. But I have no intention of then deliberately seeking out places where others smoke in order to berate them. In my childhood I was told that a lady never smoked on the street. These days, it's about the only place she can!

There's more about Chantix here: http://chantix.com
The web site offers a lot of support and they have live people you can reach if you have an uncontrollable urge to smoke. Amazingly I never felt compelled to use that. I gained some weight but not like I have in past stop smoking attempts. Most importantly, I am determined not to start up again and don't have the uncontrollable urges and I stopped taking Chantix over a month ago. Good stuff!

Prior to Chantix, I had tried

• Cold turkey - Quit 2 years, had 1 cigarette was hooked again. Tried cold turkey several times and always failed.


• Smoke Stopper classes - Multiple times - washed out every time. They were guaranteed, but on the 4th try they admitted they couldn't help me. I must admit I looked forward to negative smoking :evilgrin:


• Hypnosis class/Hypnosis tapes


• Nicorette gum


• Some apparatus that cut down nicotine


• Wellbutrin (Zyban)


• Quitting with friends/relativees


• and others I don't recall at the moment.

I was the type of smoker who had to have 2 packs in my purse if I left the house or I'd get nervous. Quite pathetic, but true.

There's also a Smoking Cessation group here on DU with some other accounts of quitting with Chantix. I have a brother-in-law who had a heart attack and still couldn't quit. He succeeded with Chantix as well. When it helps old, hard-core, heavy smokers like us, I'm pretty sure it could help a lot of people.

Good luck, FloridaJudy, and I feel just like you about the over-the-top complainers. Hope my experience is helpful to you.

that said... I read thread, after thread, after thread defending the habit, and complaining because smokers can't smoke indoors

Nobody is saying ban it.

In fact, those high taxes I said should be applied, can be used in smoking cessation programs

Having been a veteran of the war on drugs I know full well you cannot ban it... but unlike some other nasty habits, this one affects me.

Hell, my mom and I were talking about it. One side effect of smoking while pregnant are smaller babies... she had smaller babies, she never smoked, well kind off. She has been smoking second hand smoke around dad for the last fifty years.

As to treating smokers like second hand citizens... perhaps as a society we now do. When my dad picked up the habit it was accepted, and nobody knew the side effects... these days our society (and others) have turned against it due to its health effects. Yes, places like MEXJCO CITY will now ban smoking in restaurants, and 'bout bloody time.

Smoke all you want. I suggest trying to quit for health reasons... and know it is not easy... but is your decision and I cannot force you, or anybody else can force you, to quit has to be yours and yours alone. Nor do I want you to be forced to quit by the state. Just to be conscious of the side effects it has on you, and on others. And if anybody posts another cutsey articles on how non-smokers are envious of smokers I will once again remind them, that no we are not envious. In fact, in some cases they can make us VERY SICK.

Back in the day when cigarette dangers were not known. So I grew up with two parents who smoked (major second hand smoke) and smoked myself right up through the first 3 1/2 months of my pregnancy. My daughter weighed over 9 pounds. She's beautiful and highly intelligent, too. I suppose studies show something, but second hand smoke equaling small babies does not necessarily occur.

I wonder about the validity of statistical studies. My dad had lung cancer and had smoked, but quit 10 years before diagnosed. He did, however, work on the machinery in a soap manufacturing plant and used to come home covered in white chemical powder. Most of the guys he worked with died of lung cancer as well. Was it the cigarettes that caused the cancer or was it the lax safety measures where he worked? Kind of a chicken and egg thing, yet statistically he was listed as a former smoker = reason for lung cancer.

My State has one of the highest tax rates on cigarettes. Smokers are propping up the school system, but smoking cessation programs? I haven't seen any.

I have been a non smoker for just over three months. I was the rebellious type smoker who the more people lectured me to quit, the more I was told I couldn't smoke, the more determined I was to keep smoking. It's just the way many of us are. Push us and we will not respond - it can be in our nature.

Just some random thoughts - probably because my mind doesn't focus as well as it did three months ago. :hi:

some smokers have cravings for the rest of their lives. Others actually develop nausea.

As to the small babies the statistics worked at home... Hell, I was a major time premie.

But there are always exceptions to the statistics, and as to your father... you are right, in his case what came first? Though both could have combined for that result and both should have gone into the medical history. That said, even if you quit, you can still develop lung cancer a decade or so later... (them damn statistics)... I hope that you don't, or for that matter my brother, who also smoked for a good oh forty years.

The way things are going, there may not be a planet in 10 years, so maybe I'll beat the odds. I do expect to have cravings the rest of my life. I also know from past experience that if I smoke one cigarette, I'll be a smoker again. It's just like an alcoholic who can't have one drink.

But thanks for the kudos on quitting. Chantix was a very pleasant surprise in that quest.

a reaction to irritants in the air. I hope you don't live where there is a large degree of motorist traffic.
Gosh even those Metro busses pump out the plumes of diesel exhaust don't they? Hope you don't have to endure
walking thru malls during the year, especially the: perfume section, the candle stores, the center food court and Victoria Secret. All of these stores pump out abrasive odors to those as sensitive as you.
How can you pump gas? That must be tough what with all the fumes wafting around.
Wow...seems like there are an awful large number of locations in any given person's location that can be dangerous to people with as sensitive a system as you describe. Honestly, there should be something done about those odors as well, don't you think?

The anti-smoking faction in this country are really becoming even more of an irritant than the irritant they portray my choice of lifestyles. There! I Said it! I'm coming out of the smoking closet! I SMOKE! I practice an Alternative Lifestyle CHOICE! How dare you offer criticism to my lifestyle. Some say you aren't born a smoker, while others say maybe it's in your genetic make-up for the tendency to be stronger in you than in others. I don't know, I just know that smoking brings me a sense of peace.

I just had to laugh at a trio of women the other afternoon. My local Bar & Grill, like the rest of Tennessee has forced patron out to the curb if they wish to smoke. I've made the best I can of it, watching the passing cars and people as I enjoy my smoke. So here I was, outside...smoking. When these three women walked out. I held my burning cherry toward the ground and out of the footpath to diffuse any wafting smoke...I even blew my latest drag up and away from their direction...and what do they do?
They covered their mouths and eyes and made gagging sounds along with "oh my..." as their skin would apparently melt off if any trace amount of smoke be near them. The last woman gave me a glare that could have etched steel.

Even after having removed a sizable portion of the patrons from the establishment, kicking the remainder of smokers to the curb, the non-smokers are still not happy...

"I hope you don't live where there is a large degree of motorist traffic."

Do cigarettes get good mileage and get you to work? Do cigarettes transport rolling stock across the country? Do cigarettes get foodstuffs from the farms to the local market? If not. it's another bullshit analogy. Try reading about the concept of cost-benefit ratios.



"I don't know, I just know that smoking brings me a sense of peace."

From one smoker to another-- the peace is already there, regardless of whether we smoke or not. You're simply using that as an excuse to justify your addiction.

I still go outside and hang out with the smokers even though I quit. Smokers are my kind of people. It's one reason I didn't want to quit. I didn't want people to think I was one of THEM - the sanctimonious critics.

Loved this paragraph, ScreamWhisper - well said. :smoke:

The anti-smoking faction in this country are really becoming even more of an irritant than the irritant they portray my choice of lifestyles. There! I Said it! I'm coming out of the smoking closet! I SMOKE! I practice an Alternative Lifestyle CHOICE! How dare you offer criticism to my lifestyle. Some say you aren't born a smoker, while others say maybe it's in your genetic make-up for the tendency to be stronger in you than in others. I don't know, I just know that smoking brings me a sense of peace.

Lecturing by others isn't going to curtail a smoker's addiction, nor are high taxes and anti-smoking laws. Besides, what would states do without sin tax dollars? Some states rely heavily on continued addiction.

Even of former smokers, at least of those who haven't gone round the bend to preach their former colleagues. Perhaps knowing what a powerful addiction can do to a person gives them a tad more compassion for the foibles of others.

You'll also find some of the kindest people you'd ever hope to meet in AA meetings, for much the same reason I suspect. They recognize just what jerks they once acted like in their cups, and are willing to make allowances. Of course, you'll also find some self-righteous creeps there - who make Carrie Nation look like a moderate - but on the whole former drinkers tend to be a tolerant, forgiving lot.

by the way... YOUR SMOKE does affect me... does the fact that city transit can do that also (though it has never really had it) have anything to do with the effects YOUR cigarette smoke has on me?

Also I am NOT telling you to stop smoking... just don't do it where it will affect me... why is that a problem for you?

It's not in the least bit illegal.. and you SHOULD not have more rights than other because you are physically intollerant.
It seems to me, if going ito that bar (where you KNEW there were smokers) then whose fault is it you had asthma attacks?
Simply go to another bar where the owner prohibits smoking.
That's my point, The decision to ban from restaurants should have been made at a local level with the individual locations.
Not from one segments preference over another.

Basically all that happened is that the patron-base was flipped like a lightswitch.
ON = Smoker' rights
OFF= No smoker's rights
The thing is, history shows that the segment of the population who revel in banning the smokers, probably won't stop there.
They will find the next socially-questionable habit that annoys them and they will have their new targets.

If you have a smoker in your living room, that's your business alone.

1.- I don't go to bars

2.- THe state where I live you'd not be able to light up in a bar anyway, so that would not a problem if perchance I decided to go to a bar.

3.- This is not about civil rights, but public heath. Your smoking around people who can get sick can lead to a death. Your smoking around kids can stunt their growth and your second hand smoking can lead to increased lung cancer rates among non smokers due to second hand smoke. Your smoke can also lead to smaller babies among pregnant women, and the costs associated with taking care of premies.

So your "freedoms" supersede public health I guess, and the costs associated with your habit, why your habit should be taxed and highly taxed. What is amazing is that you can still smoke... there are places, even public places where you can still light up. Nobody is telling you to stop smoking.

As to history, as a HISTORIAN by training I call bullshit at your statement.

Now if we started doing with smokers what we did with TB patients for public health reasons back in the 1920s you MIGHT have a point. We are not there, nor we will be there.

Now here is something you may find amusing. MOST smokers realize what I posted above and realize why the bans in public places came out. You don't. This tells me more about your addiction and you, than you'd ever reveal otherwise. Don't worry, my dad does not get it either... then again he is 83 and he grew up in a society where smoking was not only accepted but the social norm.

Don't interrupt my good time and you can stay smug at home.

Yes it does have to do with civil rights once a person can be fined, or even sued for use of a legal product

Call bullshit all you wish. I can point to the over-sensitive PC crowd to prove that one by one, people's rights are slowly being
stripped away. If you really believe that second-hand smoke can cause that much socially malignant outcomes, then please
post any conclusive long-term clinical studies, or peer review journal article stating as such.

Gee..Tubercluosis...you mean that highly contagious disease... that tells me something about you and how you truly feel about
people who think and do differently than yourself, nice

All this should tell you is i support the freedoms of people to indulge in a legal use of tobacco, nothing more...nothing less.
See that shows me something else about you. You don't know me, my background, but you have me all summed up with a nice little bow
because your views arre challenged...and that's sad.

I hope you don't weigh over 300 lbs, because the gastronomically enhanced (challenged) will be the next target.

be aware though that YOU are also responsible for the death of others due to second hand smoke.

By the way you were the one making a case about banning which nobody has even suggested. Therefore I suggest a readying comprehension course.

NOBODY is advocating banning it. If I had it my way I'd change the highly addictive formulas used by US Cig manufacturers, the ones they admit were designed to do what they do... and have for sale a less addictive (and dangerous) product. You would benefit too. If for some reason you wanted to quit, it may be easier.

By the way you also made a spurious HISTORICAL assumption. I pulled out REAL HISTORICAL FACTS of what was done at one time. which also was argued was a violation of civil rights. So let me ask you a question... in your quest for your smoking pleasure you have no problem is somebody dies or ends up in the hospital? What about MY civil Rights? Oh wait, we don't care about them.

Now if you come to my state, you will NOT be able to smoke in a bar, you will not be able to smoke in a restaurant, health care facility or public space, beyond clearly marked places. And you know what? Everybody wins, the smoker who has a place to smoke, and the rest of us who DO NOT need your crap. But once again, NOBODY is even suggesting banning it. In fact, if you read the OP you'd even realize I am all for LEGALIZING all other drugs, since the war on drugs is quite the failure. But oh, well, readying ain't a strong suit for many folks.

...you know the one that could actually support your claims like:

"be aware though that YOU are also responsible for the death of others due to second hand smoke."
- Prove it.

NOBODY is advocating banning it. If I had it my way I'd change the highly addictive formulas used by US Cig manufacturers, the ones they admit were designed to do what they do... and have for sale a less addictive (and dangerous) product. You would benefit too. If for some reason you wanted to quit, it may be easier.
- call it whatever you wish...but if it's BANNED from restaurants, BANNED from sidewalks, BANNED from outdoor / stadium events...it seems like a proper spade has been called. Death of liberties may not necessarily come from 1 large blow (outright illegality) but a series of smaller cuts

By the way you also made a spurious HISTORICAL assumption. I pulled out REAL HISTORICAL FACTS of what was done at one time. which also was argued was a violation of civil rights. So let me ask you a question... in your quest for your smoking pleasure you have no problem is somebody dies or ends up in the hospital? What about MY civil Rights? Oh wait, we don't care about them.
- Your civil rights are in place, dear. You can certainly choose to not go into an establishment that allows smoking, just as I make a choice to go into establishments that have BANNED smoking

But oh, well, readying (as in "reading") ain't a strong suit for many folks.
-Apparently , so is spelling, but that would be awfully trivial of me to cheapen a debate with personal attacks.

" I am all for LEGALIZING all other drugs, "
- So you would legalize: heroin, crack, lsd, marijuana and the ever popular meth? Seems awfully irresponsible to me. Especially as tobacco is no where in the same league as would be qualified with "all other drugs."

I'm simply training my lungs to live in an ever increasingly hostile and caustic environment.
In a few years you'll be thinking "God, if only I had smoked." as you walk thru the tar-laden atmosphere
that will be most urban environments.

I thought you were replying to me at first!

I, however, find it possible to be happy. Blowing smoke rings. Politely.

"Not because tobacco in its natural form is that addictive... "

It's addictive because it's got nicotine. Nicotine is natural in tobacco. Do cigarette companies add nicotine? Sure.

"The process, in fact, is not that different from making crack cocaine, and why cocaine is far more addictive than the coca leave."

I keep seeing this myth pop up lately. The cocaine in crack cocaine is the same cocaine that's in cocaine. More of it? OK, again, sure.

"One of the irritants in your smoke is cyanide. You know where else cyanide was used? Here is a hint, the death chamber at St Quentin State prison in California.

Another one of those major irritants is Carbon Monoxide... yep, may make your lips look a little redder, but that is because it is taking the place of Oxygen... and CO is not conducive to life."

Sure, but these are just trace chemicals. Citing cyanide and CO is silly, sounds like anti-drug propaganda. Nicotine, tar, PAHs, and maybe acrolein are the real dangerous, and they're bad enough.

but I guess not, so that means i'm safe.

Funny you say that. I was at a concert once where smokers were sternly warned and tokers were ignored.
Good thing there was 2nd hand toke.

Reality is that most folks don't have the reactions to smoke that you do.

What should we do about other substances that one might leave a trace of that an allergic person might come into contact with?

allergic reactions to smoke among asthmatics is very high

And peanuts, my nephew is allergic to them. He stays away from them... I can't stay away from the smoke that easily.

You will not go into anaphylaxic (sp?) shock if you catch a whiff of tobacco.

owever...

Peanut allergy is a type of food allergy, distinct from nut allergies. It is a hypersensitivity to dietary substances from peanuts causing an overreaction of the immune system which may lead to severe physical symptoms for millions of people<1>. The Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America estimates that the majority of pediatric and adult food allergy patients have a peanut allergy<2>. Prevalence among adults and children is similar (around 1%) but at least one study shows it to be on the rise in children.<3> 25% of children with a peanut allergy grow out of it. It is usually treated with an exclusion diet and vigilant avoidance of foods that may be contaminated with whole peanuts or peanut particles and/or oils. The most severe peanut allergies can result in anaphylaxis.

Since peanut allergies are on the rise as well...?

I am terribly sorry for your allergy and I promise never to smoke in your home or a restaurant you are in... Or in your car, your bathroom, your closet or anywhere in an area you have deed to.

However, If you care to visit my home or ride in my car, I will offer you a gas mask.

I have... plenty of times... breathing is a problem. and lips turn a nice shade of blue... and things like SAPO2 are off into dangerous territory. Hell, some of these patients go into a coma and later die

I guess that is ok since the tongue did not swell, and breathing did not become a problem in ten seconds flat. (Yes I have also treated anaphylaxis)

"So here we are at a point where many of you are in denial"

i dont think ive seen any of that on DU, im pretty sure everyone is aware of the dangers of smoking. they are just in denial about people wanting to tell them when and where they can kill themselves. i dont blame them.

I see it every day in person.

:-)

No smoking in the restaraunts or bars of Maine, I've had years to adapt. I believe there is a private establishment somewhere in a nearby town where people can smoke, play pool, drink beer and eat hot dogs though.

If you have a neighbor that smokes in their home - and you're highly allergic to it, yet you go to visit, is it their fault if you suddenly have trouble breathing?

Yes, smoking is an unhealthy addiction that will most likely cause my death at some point if I don't die by other causes prior to that. I'm all in favor of bans on smoking - on the private level. If a restaraunt, or a bar wants to ban smoking (keep your filthy cigarettes away from our whisky, sickos) then by all means let them do so. But I don't think that it is right that this be done on a state level, or become federally mandated as it undoubtedly will in the future. Provided they don't outlaw smoking altogether.

The "Noble Experiment" (prohibition) created the mafia, I wonder what outlawing smoking would do? Eh, not much I suppose, increase crime, give more money and power to the black market, drug lords and gangs, etc. On the other hand - they wouldn't be able to tax it (as someone else pointed out). Perhaps it would be cheaper.

Marijuana smokers, heavy drinkers, people who eat a dozen doughnuts a day - they all complain about cigarette smoke. Inside or outside - it doesn't really matter.

Nonetheless, I smoke outside and don't do it around small children - if they happen to walk by my driveway (or the parking lot/wherever I am) while I'm smoking though, I'm not putting it out, they're pretty darn expensive.

if you READ the OP you would even find that I also advocate LEGALIZING what right now are illegal drugs.

if regulating a product is banning it, I have no idea what logic you are using

:sarcasm:

wisdom the most will only hide this thread. I'm and ex-smoker myself but every time I try to convince a smoker to give it up and use me as an example that there is a life after Marlboros, I get shut out.

But if they have to serve food in order to keep their liquor license, I guess you'll claim that as your local restaurant, too, right? :eyes:

in fact, I don't want to be around you for any reason at all. You, or any of the other sanctimonious and obnoxious cigarette police.

However, I live in a non-smoking town. Why, I wonder, can't a person open a smoking club whose sole purpose is to cater to smokers? The intent is clear, no one has to work there, or go there.

Why can't smokers who chose to smoke do so in a biz in that situation? Why? Because people want to pretend that smokers are worse than pcbs in the ground water, or mercury in fish because they can act like assholes toward people who smoke.

Your and others remarks, as someone noted above, make me not want to quit because I don't want to be an asshole like you and others on this site. You know what... if I die from smoking that's my biz, not yours. Are you out there lecturing all the fat baptists who will have heart attacks that they need to make sure they eat no more than 1000 calories a day so they don't put a burden on you for their addiction?

You cannot use the excuse that you aren't impacted when, as noted above, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a smokers bar or club or whatever.

Can we allow people to drink alcohol to own cars? They might drive while drunk. Might, not necessarily will. It might impact you if you are driving.

oh well, I guess I'm back to hiding threads and ignoring people. I'm sure your response will be a chuckle and a tsk, tsk, about my addiction to cigarettes. I don't need or want that, thank you.

The issue of smokers vs. non-smokers is becoming like the issue between forcing the 10 commandments on the courthouse lawn. They're only doing that to save our souls.

one of the products of your smoking are PCBs, funny isn't it?

And your addiction is YOUR business, not mine, unless you are close to me. Then it becomes my issue and a possible trip to the ER.

That is when it becomes my problem

cigarettes have the same effect as pcbs that were dumped at sites that made refriges, etc .Cigarettes have the same impact as a superfund site from some major manufacturer who (at least in my area) closed up shop and ran rather than deal with the issue.

See, this is the sort of crap that really disgusts me. Why do you even try to equate the two?????

jesus, you non-smokers will just not give it up, will you? Have I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior and, more importantly, have I admitted I smoke cigarettes? the whole point is that I don't want to be around people like you, so you had no need to reiterate what you said. get it? I've never been a rude smoker. I've gone out of my way to respect the rights of non-smokers. The hostility exhibited on this site... is UNWARRANTED for probably most of the people here. I honestly do not know one person who smokes who would try to annoy others with smoke, or blow smoke toward them or try to be around non-smokers (when, obviously, ppl are outside. Inside smoking has not been a part of anyone's experience here for years.

my point (also on the thread I started and stopped) is that non-smokers do not want to give smokers a choice, i.e. a smokers only bar, where no one is forced to work there because there are tons of non-smoking bizzes. But such a bar is not allowed in non-smoking cities because... again, why is any other business person is allowed to open a business that caters to other particular legal items, but not cigarettes?

safety regs for bizzes do not pass muster as an excuse in a bar, for instance, which exists to be a bar for smokers. because, as I again noted, there are plenty of jobs that deal with hazardous chemicals and people choose to work in those jobs, whether they are researchers at the CDC or off-shore oil riggers. why is It okay to force your pov on others if it involves a smoker's-only facility, but you wouldn't dare display that same level of interference in those researchers work, for instance, or try to regulate their workplaces due to possible exposure to hazardous chemicals.

see the hypocrisy is really annoying. especially when the argument is about others' health and safety when it in no way impinges upon you - when others can choose where to work. where non-smokers have tons of options of places to go for an evening out, but not one such establishment should be allowed for smokers.

ARE SIMILAR to the effects to many folks living near a superfund site. Perhaps you should read some real science.

That is for starters

Secondly, the reason why a smoking bar is not allowed is due to the effect on the workers... and eight hours of exposure to this crap, even if they are smokers.

Third, NOBODY is asking you to stop... you want to smoke, go ahead... but there are certain areas where you cannot, or should not do it. Those restrictions are not harsher than those on oh drinkers of alcoholic beverages who should not drive while intoxicated, (and by the way there is a special circle of hell for those who drive drunk and kill people)

That does not mean we tell drunks to stop drinking. We tried that one once... didn't work. Hell, the Russians tried this little experiment even more recently than we did, and it worked just dandy, for the Russian Mafia that is.

WE as a society, yes WE, put limits on many things, not only smoking, because the long term effects to all of us are that onerous

By the way... the arguments you are making have also been made by industry... regarding pollutants... as well as safety and against things like OSHA.

See, you are thinking of I, while many of us are thinking of WE. You are thinking of me, while we are thinking of the commons.

And no, I will never ask for your habit to be banned... that would be beyond stoopid.

It seems to me that even asking for folks to take it outside, is seen as a personal attack... so be it.

that is not what my posts said at all. -re take it outside.

and you know, my lungs, I suppose, are my biz. but it's okay to make the groundwater dangerous to drink (tho it still is) and let it impact small children... but if someone smokes, and not around children, it's the same issue? That has nothing to do with "true science." it has to do with you wanting to control others' behavior. that's really what this is all about. you all just do not want to admit it... yes, it's about "we" as in "we non-smokers want to tell you and anyone who would like to open a bar for you that we don't want that, even if we will never go there."

the issue, again, of health for workers is NOT AN ISSUE because no one would be forced to work in a smoking environment when there are plenty of other places to work. you cannot use that argument, again, because health and safety rules do not mean people cannot work in a smoking environment or one that deals with contagious diseases. I don't understand why you and others cannot accept that you have no ground to stand on when so many other employees are allowed to weight acceptable risk, etc. and work in one job vs. another. why don't you go close down some coal mines?

of course we as a society put limits on things. that does not address the issue of why someone cannot operate a business that exists to cater to smokers. my argument is about personal choice, not industrial pollution. it is not illegal to smoke. it should be possible to have a smoking bar/club in any city..

you are thinking of "we" when the entire thrust of your post, apparently, is how your father annoys you because he smokes in your house. LOL.

I do not smoke in any person's house unless they do. so maybe it's not just about me, but about the idea that you and others like you have no right to insist that no one can have a business that caters to smokers.

but that's just not something the true believers can comprehend, apparently.

maybe because that would mean you and others would have to admit that you are acting just like some fundie who wants to shut down any bars because people drink in them. when you cannot honestly claim a general health issue, it comes down to the same thing.

I really regret that I posted on this thread. It makes me ill to read people trying to blame current smokers because their parents smoked... incredible, really.

behind things like second hand smoke and its effects on others... and no, it is just not your lungs. Trust me, if we could make a device where you can smoke to your heart's content, anywhere and it didn't affect the rest of us... I'd have no problem.

But until then, unless you smoke away from others, fully... your smoke affects others

Just like a drunk driver affects others when he \she crashes after he \she had one too many

Just like anybody high on a medical prescription drug (such as cold meds) can be fined for DUI as well, and face harsher penalties if she\he crashes.

And yes, the effects of second hand smoke are that severe. The science, I know pesky thing, is there.

There are countries in the world where smoking is still accepted... by society. This just happens not be one of them. There are countries that are just making that switch... Mexico City for instance is just banning smoking in bars and restaurants. They are trying that little experiment of making places either non-smoking or smoking and I am willing to bet that the non-smoking will have a better turn out long term. Given that smoking is no longer socially acceptable either.

Oh and yes, the same arguments were made, but, but, but business will crash... bidness is booming where I live, and you know what, you take your smoking outside.



And yes I can make the arguments from a industrial safety issue since ALL restaurants and bars are regulated by a government agency. They have to follow OSHA rules and exposing your workers to certain chemicals is a no-no

By the way... this little arrangement works fine for 95% of folks smokers and non smokers alike. Because we realize as a society that we cannot ban it, that would be STOOPID, but you will not quit either. So you get to smoke, and we get not to smoke... simple. Have some folks taken it too far? Yes... a university campus, according to a fellow DU'er banned smoking on campus... now that is color me stupid. After all, some students and some faculty, as well as support staff STILL smoke. So you make the usual accommodations. If I was the anti smoking person you think I am, I'd be applauding that school. No, they are stupid... beyond belief.

But if you think second hand smoke is not that bad... read some science

I coming to the impression that you really just enjoy hearing yourself speak thru your writing. You keep making condescending and snide comments to other peoples POVs ...telling them to go research YOUR SCIENCE, but never provide a source yourself.
Here's a hint dear: ITS NOT OUR JOB TO LOCATE YOUR SCIENCE.
It's YOUR responsibility to post the articles proving your point.

Treat other members with respect.

Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive

Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior.

Who gave the quote, "you don't live longer, it just feels longer." I like that one. :)

I don't smoke where smoking is prohibited. I don't smoke in heavily traveled or congested public areas. I put out cigarettes if I am in my own outdoor space and someone comes into the area that I feel may prefer I don't smoke. I clean up after myself - I don't litter. I respond politely and comply to any requests that I move or stop smoking even outdoors, though to be honest that rarely happens because I am usually either alert enough of others or no one is bothered.

So please, leave me alone.

EDIT - bah...posted in the wrong part of the thread.

I have always been super conscious of not bothering people with my smoke, too. I don't even smoke in my car or in my own house, let alone others'. I am not proud of my smoking habit and try to avoid smoking around people - I have even tried to hide it from family members for MANY years... It was great to be able to go to a bar and smoke with others who smoke and not feel guilty or ashamed... Thank goodness there are still plenty of states and cities within states that haven't gone off the deep end and where we can still be left alone. The hostility towards smokers really is cruel and out of proportion to the threat to non-smokers.

if you actually bothered to read this.

In fact I don't want it banned... far from it. Highly regulated YES... taxed, yes... but I want the same for LEGAL marijuana

LOL...oh that's right....

When are they going to set out all the SPITTOONS to accommodate the massive shift to chewing tobacco and snuff?

Will someone spitting in a restaurant upset the same people? How does it affect THEIR health?

Copenhagen cures all.

I actually thought they where were outlawed, but from this link, they just went out of favor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spittoon

"After the 1918 flu epidemic, both hygiene and etiquette advocates began to disparage public use of the spittoon, and use began to decline. Chewing gum replaced tobacco as the favorite chew of the younger generation. Cigarettes were considered more hygienic than spit-inducing chewing tobacco. While it was still not unusual to see spittoons in some public places in parts of the US as late as the 1930s, vast numbers of old brass spittoons met their ends in the scrap drives of World War II."

Just a little fun fact.

so you stop your hysteria. If I had it my way, I'd get the tobacco formulas less addictive

I do like the tax ideas you have. I would like to throw in a tax idea I have had. I think internet service should be taxed based on usage. The higher the usage the higher the rate. I think it would speed up my connection. The music/movie down loaders and especially the gamers are a growing problem. The taxes should be used to provide low usage internet and computers to those who couldn't otherwise afford it

devil's advocate... could be a way to get away from equal access though

;-)

addictive substances often used by the poor to augment unrelated societal ills.

I'd tax both tobacco and alcohol severely... yes it is regressive and it hurts the poor in a disproportionate way... but... I would also levy luxury taxes on luxury goods, such as high end vehicles and high end boats... a row boat, no... even a small two or three person boat for fishing. But a yacht, you betcha.

I'd also levy special luxury taxes on certain food items... such as caviar and other luxury foods... but at the same time I'd also levy a tax on fast food... both to be used for both heath education and treating of morbid obesity as what it is, an addiction.

Then again I'd also use my taxes for a national health program with full access for all citizens. Programs such as a national health system are costly, but also encourage people to loose weight, stop smoking and drink in moderation, as well as maintain healthy blood sugars for diabetics, and other national health goals. The idea is... even with chronic health problems, the longer I keep you out of any acute phase, the better the outcomes and the less the cost... and you also can bet on less visits to the ER.

Of course at this point we are talking about a comprehensive taxation and benefits program, the kind that I fear not even our fearless leaders are talking about,

taxes are going to effect you? What do you consume which will be excessively taxed?

and my parents have bought a couple luxury vehicles over their lifetime.

So yes, I would be affected as well

or eat fast food or buy yachts but I feel putting an undue burden on something because we feel it is morally wrong or for the users own good is going the wrong way IMHO. Yea, a case can be made that these things cause health problems which then become societal problems but unless the excessive taxation will guarantee payment for heart/lung transplant surgery for smokers or liver transplants for alcoholics and free inpatient treatment for both, it is unjust to tax those who use these things as a deterrent. Further excessive taxation has always resulted in the same thing as prohibition...black market trade.

I'd use that money to put into national health care, smoking cessation programs, nutrition education programs (as well as things like food-stamps for people to get healthy food if they cannot afford it, as well as WIC and other programs), drinking cessation programs, et al

Now to the luxury items, get rid of the tax, if we have a progressive table where the best to do pay at least at the level they did when reagan came on board and get rid of the loopholes. Otherwise.. they stay.

Now ideally I'd also have taxes like social security, 1 to 1.5% of payroll tax, no limits... no ceiling, to pay for national single payer healthcare, and while we are at it, I'd remove the ceiling for Social Security. So yes, you'd have the money for the transplants, heart surgeries, et al that smokers, hearty eaters and drinkers will need.

Alas I am not running for anything and this is way too progressive for most folks.

I mean what would business do? Especially the health care industry.

:-)

Of course we know the reality... most of our guv'ments like to use those taxes to punish people. Hell, when we called 9.11 we were charged for the responding ambulance, a very Republican thing to do, charge fees. So exactly what I am paying taxes for?

I know this is hypothetical and my ire isn't raised over any of it at all...

Your last question can be easily answered with a nice little vacation to someplace like Nassau where the residents don't pay taxes. The infrastructure is unlike anyplace in the US since the 19th century. Bad roads, bad government facilities, bad airport, etc., to the point that our 2 sons aged 11 at the time asked us why everything was so run down...even they noticed.

Having been self employed for years I for one am not excited about higher taxes. I have been taxed out of business before. I have long believed that everyone should have to pay taxes the way I do...no withholding, write a check every April. There would be few calls for higher taxes or ss...in fact there would likely be tax revolt...I can tell you it is revolting.

I know what countries with lower tax bases look like... since I grew up in Mexico...

But I also pay property taxes, Those cover things like the salary for police and fire. That rig was fire... so tell me why were we charged?

Oh yes, I actually live in a city where lower taxes are a mantra. Why we got a fee.

As to self employed yes, so am I. That said, if we pay taxes, in this case property taxes, that pay for those city services IN THEORY, what am I paying taxes for?

See I can tell the difference between the Federal Highway fund, SS and other Federal taxes and my local property taxes, and this is reality, the lower taxes crowd, one reason for it, is when they NEED those services they get a bill.

By the way, my brother lives in Cleveland OH... where that city ambulance would not have generated a bill. Higher tax base, you see.

and highly taxed. You need to take responsibility for your own health and stop laying it off on 'smokers'.

Got any complaints about the other ingredients of daily living? Are you as discriminating about clothing,cleaning products, cosmetics, furnishings and a myriad of other environmentally detrimental realities that affect you? Or do you just do easy targets?

how ahem libertarian of you.

So should we stop investing in public health across the board or just smoking and its consequences?

If you can't sit through a meal without having to smoke then you really have a problem. I do have a problem with bans for bars that do not serve food though, those are bullshit and none of the local taprooms here pay attention to them. Cigarettes are already highly regulated and highly taxed.

and for some it is very strong

But one must have at least some self-dicipline to get along in life.

I do not smoke in any enclosed place except my own car and my own house. I never do so with company, and I always warn potential passengers in the car that I have smoked in the car - so to never trap anyone in the car (not with current smoke - but with residue.) I do smoke outside - and try as hard as possible to be in areas that do not blow smoke to others (eg never right outside a main entry way to a building).

I don't mind smoking bans inside public buildings, nor even those restricting smoking in cars with children. That makes sense to me.

However, the bans in larger public areas that include all outdoor areas (e.g. a large public university banning smoking anywhere on campus grounds) seems very excessive, unless we, as a society, go the long yard and a) make tobacco smoking (or other use) illegal, and b) provide resources (or compel manufacturers to do so) for nicotine cessation programs for all folks who are addicted.

In short - I respect and obey (and did before they were legislated) most of the anti-smoking local laws - but I am concerned about the far reaching and excessive efforts to prevent smoking in private property, or anywhere outdoors on public property - unless there is an effort to ban (legally) smoking altogether, and to provice resources for tools (eg perscription to the patch) to quit.

campus.

having areas where smokers can smoke is the way to go, and has been the way to go and works.

As to having the manufacturers pay for smoking cessasion programs for those who want it... yep, they should... and that should be passed legally

Anecdotally the USN still pays for smoking cessation among its sailors, since cigs were once part of navy rations and smoking even in ships is now a no-no

all I see is blah blah blabbity blabbity blah. Save your precious pristine breath.

you have my sympathies, I just shake my head.

little plastic bags and save it, when you need it, it will be there for you to breathe. All the free pristine air you could ever want!

anyhow, perhaps it would be better if I just started carrying a nice D tank, with mask... that MIGHT make you happier

And no, I do not mean any sarcasm by this either

concessions and taken it outside; we are not all going to quit, but no matter what, it never seems to be enough, ya know?

read the OP AGAIN

In fact I am all for LEGALIZING what is illegal right now, such as weed... which is stupid that is illegal, for multiple reasons

We all can come to an arrangement that allows you to smoke and allows me to stay out that smoke

if I am smoking in a perfectly legal manner and you come around the corner and have an attack? What are you proposing? Can't you take the precaution of only going to smoke-free venues? I myself am sensitive to fumes from formaldehyde, chlorine, ammonia, certain perfumes etc., but I can only do so much to avoid this stuff, in fact exposure can possibly reduce sensitivity over time. As it has been noted, it is impossible to avoid exposure to airborne pollutants, each individual has to take and make their own way in precaution. As for weed, I am sure you have heard about the possible benefits for asthma associated with it. I was simply taking issue with the preachy tone of the OP in that it is all stuff we have heard time and again, and the slippery slope of smoking bans to the point of infringing on personal rights is not solving anything, including your extreme sensitivity to cigarette smoke.

and that is a very serious medical note. My mother in law was allergic to the cigs she smoked for years... after she stopped her breathing got much better... and you might be on the same boat she was... and if you are... see if your insurance will cover smoking cessation programs and things like Chiantix work. They deal at the addiction level.

And in the open air, I can avoid it. The problem happens in enclosed places... like the aforementioned restaurant (or right now in my apartment with a dad who broke a hip and is a smoker with a fifty year old habit and who at times is still in denial. I wonder if he'll get it after hubby calls 9.11)

The preachy tone is coming from the many preachy tone threads posted by smokers, who have even told us that we are envious of their habit, which we are not, and that it will make our hair softer.... that is the cyanide.

I believe we as a society, not me and you, but a society, have actually reached a good accommodation, in fact one that serves 95% of us well. There are some tweaks, like higher taxes, but not just for cigarettes, luxury goods and fast food, as well as alcohol should be included... the luxury goods, because the other three are regressive... but the fast food... for the same reason society wide that we tax cigs and alcohol.. the effects on a public health level.

Good Grief.

this state has banned smoking in restaurants, bars, medical facilities, public spaces, et al

But how do I avoid it at home?

And as I said... preachy tone comes from the preachy tone used by smokers.

Oh and I was dead serious about ammonia and formaldehyde... it is present in the smoke of your cigs, if you are that sensitive, I'd consider quitting.

"I don't want you or need you to smoke in my local restaurant"

Fine - buy your own and make it non-smoking.

That used to be a choice people had. But then some on here HATE choice for some odd reason.

there is FIRM science behind it... oh I forgot, if this is science that affects me personally then it is agenda driven

Also up-thread.

If I buy a bar and want to allow folks to do something legal (like...smoke) in the bar, why should I be denied that?

Control freaks irk me - nothing personal against you of course (I really do like your posts, we just disagree).

And about deaths related to smoking (something else that irks me) basically, if someone smokes and they die they chalk it up to smoking even if it has nothing to do with it.

We get more poisons from folks driving their cars than smoking in bars.

and my car does not include cyanide, for example... it includes other stuff, but not some.

As to control freaks, well I am sorry, but the science behind the bans is extremely solid. I guess we should have never allow science to go forth.

I would add that part of the problem as to why cigarette smoke is so damn addictive and poisonous has ALL to do with the process to make crack tobacco. Change that... and sell the NATURAL tobacco and two things will happen.

1.- the addiction level goes down by orders of magnitude

2.- The emissions are no longer as long, or as dangerous to all concerned.

Yes, even your cancer rates will drop... in case you wonder formulas for cigs abroad are also different...

I guess it is also the choice and right of the companies to make a product ON PURPOSE that is so damaging to public health

Seems really religion like to me.

Folks should have the choice to live as they want, and associate with others who make the same choice.

WHY do you want to control others? If they want to congregate and have a beer and a smoke, what business is it of yours?

just because they work there, should they have no choice?

See here is where the balancing act comes in...

And no, we will not agree whatsoever

You don't have to work there.

And the bars I used to go to in Ohio - the people working there smoked, as did most patrons - and it was banned :)

In a free society people have something called CHOICE. I support that.

and I also support that

:-)

As I said, we will not agree on this one

And yes, you can blame my asthma and ten years as an EMS worker... damn health care workers!

We can just agree to disagree, no hard feelings - afterall, this isn't GD-P :rofl:

I don't blame ya for not wanting to be around smokers, I just think you and I should both have a choice.

:hug:

In that you are correct

And we will not agree on everything!

If we did, life would be too boring!

By the way... banning purses in schools, though I can see the teacher's side (thanks to my lovely niece), they were STOOPID!

:-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=31126&mesg_id=31126

from the health forum- non-smokers are more expensive to treat b/c they live longer... LOL. really, you non-smokers, you should leave us alone because we're saving you money that you can spend on someone changing your diapers when you're older.

with modern health care we can keep a patient with COPD kicking around for a decade or two.

His \ her care is more expensive than that of a healthy non-smoker, even near end stage. Why? COPD is chronic, so is Emphysema.

Oh well... there are days I am amazed by DU

I didn't make it up.

where does your statement come from? where's a link to a source? you're claiming that you can pull some statement out of your ass and it becomes a way to refute someone's study?

:eyes:

The study, paid for by the Dutch Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sports, did not take into account other potential costs of obesity and smoking, such as lost economic productivity or social costs.... from the YAHOO article

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080205/ap_on_he_me/obesity_cost

Not only does it counter all other studies done, such as Framigham... but it ignored those major aspects, such as social cost (second hand smoke, the cost of moving a severely obese patient to a treatment facility from complications, and not working)

So, until I see a study that also follows that... sorry... it is counter to other studies, such as the Framingham Heart study.

here you go

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/about/framingham/

they do it and they have no problems with smokers (shit, some of them smoke socially -- which leaves many of their smoker friends looking quite worried as they watch the asthmatic suck on their bummed ciggy).

tah dah! done.

don't go into an underground unlicensed rave with everyone hotboxing each other with all sorts of smoke. don't stand outside on the smoking balcony or outdoor hallway of a house party. other than that everything should be fine. besides, you should be bringing your inhaler with you regularly. the smog in the city has been worse for my asthmatic friends and family than ambient smoke from some outdoor smoker.

unless ou've picked up something really weird... dad had a coworker go to an underdeveloped country and picked up something quite nasty. apparently it was some unknown to western med parasite, fungi or worm they never figured it out. it was so bad he couldn't have people wearing even the lightest perfume or even fragrant food around him. he'd go intot he most violent asthmatic attacks i've ever heard about. finally he tried to self-cure because the western docs couldn't figure it out, and the precautions just weren't working. he almost died, but apparently the parasite died and he's been normal ever since.

i know you've worked in underdeveloped countries, too. maybe you need to check out a parasitologist specialist doctor to see if it might be exacerbating your asthma to extreme levels. because if it's that bad that's deeply abnormal and should be further investigated. nasty parasites can do horrors to the living tissues of your lungs. that stuff can easily kill you faster than any carcinogenic smoke from tobacco. i still have nightmares from my (and other fam/friends w/ science majors) brief studies in parasitology... *shudder* chewing out your lungs! eww! now i'm gonna have nightmares!

"Yes I have been highly bemused by the many smokers defending their addiction."

And I by the people who assume if you think that a bar or restaurant owner should set the smoking policy and not the government you must be a hard core addicted smoker. Dozens of times Ive had people tell me I should not smoke around my Girls because Im against municipal bans, problem is *I dont smoke*.

"Yes, it is an addiction. In fact, one of the strongest addictive agents known to man."

I know more people addicted to caffeine than cigeretts whats your point?

"One of the irritants in your smoke is cyanide. You know where else cyanide was used? Here is a hint, the death chamber at St Quentin State prison in California."

You may also note That the cyanide compound sodium nitroprusside is occasionally used in emergency medical situations to produce a rapid decrease in blood pressure in humans; it is also used as a vasodilator in vascular research.

"Another one of those major irritants is Carbon Monoxide... yep, may make your lips look a little redder, but that is because it is taking the place of Oxygen... and CO is not conducive to life."

A coffin nail produce far *far* less co than an automobile or even a campfire

"But... I don't want you or need you to smoke in my local restaurant."

So you own one that? cool ban smoking in it..