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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:05 PM
Original message
The White Privilege Checklist
Daily effects of white privilege

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. 51. you can indulge in white liberal guilt
without really doing anything to change things.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I have a question
what is 'white liberal guilt'?

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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Oh, for the love of god....
:eyes:

If you can't even recognize white privilege without getting defensive, what the hell could you possibly expect to change?
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
8.  Do they also have sewing bee's?
White liberals have their own quilts?

Who'd have thunk and how come I didn't get that memo?


:P
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. No. How can one quilt and engage in hand wringing at the same time?
a physical impossibility
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. What you said.
Redstone
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. . .
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Jeffro40 Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Why do you keep posting this stuff?
I refuse to feel bad because of my race or sex.

So many of the things are your list are subjective. Depending on where I am (I live in a city) the reverse is often true.

Where do you live?
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. either jealousy or guilt would be my guess...
but i'm sure they find it nicely cathartic either way.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
12.  Your Guess
on my reason for posting this reveals


your opinion on the whole issue.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. good answer Ichingcarpenter
:thumbsup:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. well, you're certainly right about that...
Edited on Mon Feb-11-08 08:32 AM by QuestionAll
all you need is one more today, and you'll match a broken clock for accuracy.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. get over yourself
what is your problem?
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NoGOPZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. I refuse to interpret the posting of 'this stuff'
as an attempt to make anyone feel bad.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. i'm a white male who can't wait to see my next set of privileges enumerated...
i'll bet it has something to do with being considered a baby-boomer.

the suspense is maddening.
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. Ah, whiteness...
I must twirl my mustache (since my hair is nice and straight) and laugh manically to myself while dominating society.

How well I have done creating a barrier to keep the masses apart by indoctrinating them in the divisiveness of RACE. A made up construct.

Soon my machinations shall flourish and create onto me utter control of the HUMAN RACES....

Bru-ha-ha-ha-ha
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. I don't see how #49 is restricted to white people
Edited on Mon Feb-11-08 01:41 AM by JVS
Maybe the "Black families are inherently defective" reading book had been phased out by the time I got to school.

Are you sure the tail end of the list isn't hetero-priviledge?
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
11. It seems that there area lot of people who aren't aware
that McIntosh's work is a central piece of most anti-racist and anti-oppression training. I'm stunned at how badly it is being received.

I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools , and blank checks.

Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable. As we in women's studies work to reveal male privilege and ask men to give up some of their power, so one who writes about having white privilege must ask, "having described it, what will I do to lessen or end it?"

After I realized the extent to which men work from a base of unacknowledged privilege, I understood that much of their oppressiveness was unconscious. Then I remembered the frequent charges from women of color that white women whom they encounter are oppressive. I began to understand why we are just seen as oppressive, even when we don't see ourselves that way. I began to count the ways in which I enjoy unearned skin privilege and have been conditioned into oblivion about its existence.

My schooling gave me no training in seeing myself as an oppressor, as an unfairly advantaged person, or as a participant in a damaged culture. I was taught to see myself as an individual whose moral state depended on her individual moral will. My schooling followed the pattern my colleague Elizabeth Minnich has pointed out: whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, normative, and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work that will allow "them" to be more like "us."


Folks, if this list is new to you, please just sit with it a little. It's not meant to denigrate, and it's not meant to be hurtful. It probably will hurt some, but that's okay.

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. I HEAR YOU TOFUNUT
these ugly responses - WTF!!!!! Hardly how true progressives behave. :thumbsdown:
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hulklogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. DU provides repeated examples of the truth about so-called "progressives"
who can't help attacking or minimizing the issues of any minority group. It's very sad.
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
40. Thanks, Skittles.
I'm glad I'm on the right side of an ass-kicking this time.

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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. I think it's not an issue of asking people to 'give up a little power'
but rather to empower everyone. To create a society of economic and social justice for everyone.

I think people who are part of a broader privileged class, whites or males, are often not particularly all that empowered in their own personal lives. So any intimation that they would need to 'give up' what little power they personally feel they have for the benefit of someone else is of course going to be threatening. It needs to be framed, to be understood, that it's not a matter of giving anything up, but raising the bar for EVERYONE.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere".
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. That's a really great insight.
It's incredibly difficult sometimes to make sense of this stuff.

I'm white, female, and have spent the past couple of years doing national service (read: extremely poor). I don't have much, and life is hard. At the same time, I do have privileges afforded to me simply because I'm white. The things that I know *are* privileges aren't a big thrill, but they are absolutely privilege.

Privilege is not always power, and it's not always obvious, but it's real. Understanding that everyone doesn't get the same privileges that I have doesn't cost me anything; I think that's hard for a lot of people to understand.

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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Why it seems new to so many
I came across this list 10 years ago when I was in a readings conference for college freshmen. You could see it even then, but college today has become so focused on preparing students for jobs that they probably don't read anything like this.

Not many companies want to hire anyone who's been asked to read, think deeply, and write about the flaws of our culture. Go USA!
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. That's true. I didn't see this in college either.
I think I first ran into this when I was working with The People's Institute, and that was really only because I working with a nonprofit that had a strong anti-racist/anti-oppression mission.

I've found since then that many nonprofit and local government orgs want that kind of training and awareness, but it's still not terribly widespread.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. what if it seems like SSDD?
How important is it for me to "see myself as an oppressor?"

You don't think it denigrates somebody to call them an oppressor?

Some of these things seem silly, like "I can associate with people of my own race?" Why the heck should I care about that unless I am a racist? And calling normal things "privileges" is just backwards. The physical ability to walk down the street is not a privilege. A privilege would be if one person got a ride and the other had to walk. Yet, walking seems like a privilege from the perspective of a parapalegic just like their ability to use their arms seems like a privilege to a quadrapalegic. Still, the point is that the ability to walk is the norm, and calling it a privilege sounds like you want to ask mobile people to break their backs so they won't have an "unfair advantage" over the handicapped.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. This is not about YOU seeing YOURSELF as an oppressor.
It's about understanding how the system has been organized.
The physical ability to walk down the street without being harrassed because you are considered a "normal" person walking down the street rather than a "suspect" or an "object" goes into the "privilege" column.
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M0rpheus Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Doh! you beat me to it
Edited on Mon Feb-11-08 08:16 PM by M0rpheus
What I was going to say...

Most if not all of the things on that list can't be taken for granted for some.

Take your example of walking down the street:
I can walk down the street in broad daylight without having to worry about someone thinking I'm a criminal.

The "privilege" is in the benefit of the doubt.



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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. That's exactly the part I feel some don't get!
It's the assumption that you're "normal" and have every right to be where you are and actually BELONG THERE.

Some years ago I went to an audition to support and cheer on the students of a colleague. We were sitting at a table and one of the "1st chair alpha white males" approached asking, "What is SHE doing here?" A female colleague responded, "Same thing you are." That wasn't good enough and he then suggested I was someone's whore. I remained silent feeling like someone had punched me in the face as the AWM colleague who had asked me to come along (higher than he on the totem pole) exploded, "SHE is one of US, here to support our students. FUCK OFF!" I was then distracted by a sobbing kid running into the restroom and missed the rest.

He did not DARE approach our table again.

It took a white male to fend off the attack. And WHY was I attacked? Did my colour and gender preclude the fact that I was simply another colleague? Were I male or blonde this ugliness would never have occured. File under: privilege.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. this quote is not about the "system"
"My schooling gave me no training in seeing myself as an oppressor, as an unfairly advantaged person, or as a participant in a damaged culture. I was taught to see myself as an individual whose moral state depended on her individual moral will."

In other words if I see things correctly, I will see myself as an oppressor.

The point about privileges is one of perspective. To me, a privilege means that you are GIVEN something. Naturally people who feel like they have not been given sh*t are gonna think "that's crap" when they are told they have privileges. What privileges? Most of the things on that list are NOT things that are given to white people - they are things which are TAKEN AWAY from non-white people. And to some degree they are common to all humanity. Our world "is not kind to strangers" even those with white skin.

I reject this framing which seems to be negative about white people which does not mean that I support harrassment or discrimination that happens to non-white people.
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M0rpheus Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. A matter of perspective?
The point about privileges is one of perspective. To me, a privilege means that you are GIVEN something. Naturally people who feel like they have not been given sh*t are gonna think "that's crap" when they are told they have privileges. What privileges? Most of the things on that list are NOT things that are given to white people - they are things which are TAKEN AWAY from non-white people.


You can acknowledge things taken away from non-white people but you can't acknowledge that as a "white" person, your getting to keep those same things, as a privilege for you?
:shrug:







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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
53. No it is not ok
This is one more attempt at trying to make people, who through no fault of their own, who happened to be born into a group that is in power, feel shame or guilt because of it.

Life isn't fair for anyone...get over it.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
13. I think this list of questions is valid and some of them seem to be old
but then again, I live in a blue state but a diverse neighborhood.

I don't agree with all of the questions but a couple made me stop and think.



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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yes, it's not new.
It's from 1988.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
18. Bookmarked K & R
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. . .
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
26. How can you change majority/minority dynamics?
When I lived in Japan, I acknowledged that people I interacted with saw me as representing all Americans, white people, etc. I could hardly blame them, seeing as in many cases, I and the few other foreigners living in the area were their only point of reference to how non-Japanese people behave. Some of the things on this list, like perceptions that certain minority groups are inferior or immoral, should certainly be combated, but others will never go away as long as there are concentrations of certain ethnicities and cultures in certain areas.
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TCJ70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
27. OK, I have a few questions
I'll say up front, I'm white...but I would just like to know where some of these are coming from. Such as:

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

-----As far as I know, talking with your mouthful is rude no matter who you are.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

-----This one bugs me a little, can't quite pin down why...seems kind of ridiculous to me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

-----This simply isn't true. If you're having a discussion with someone and they bring up race and you deny it, being white won't convince that person otherwise.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

-----So if I'm late for a meeting and get chastized for it, it reflects only on me...but if I'm black and late for a meeting, it not only reflects on me but my entire race? This sort of thinking cannot be applied in every situation.

I tend to be more positive when it comes to discrimination and racism and think that it's on a downward trend. There are a few others on this list that don't quite match up with the way I view these issues, but I'll leave them alone for now.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Remember the BIll O'Reilly incident recently
where he went to a restaurant where he was the only white patron, and he was amazed that people had decent table manners? That's what #17 is about.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
48. Same sort of thing with #18
If you hear a singer who curses or whose lyrics are sexist, if it's a white guy singing, that individual is sexist and crude. Or a "rebel." If it's a black guy, well, that's just how black people's music is - offensive. Rolling stones - check the lyrics to "some girls" (racist crap) or "stray cat blues" - about luring in underage girls who "look scared" to his apartment. I've never once heard people respond to that with "that's how white people's music is."
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M0rpheus Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. # 30 Commonly viewable right here on DU, whenever these things come up.
Edited on Mon Feb-11-08 06:02 PM by M0rpheus
Punctuated by "Get over it",
"stop whining"
"over sensitive"

Etc...

As if the concerns expressed, have no weight.


And # 39
CPT:

CPT, is an American expression referring to a stereotype of African Americans or Latinos as frequently being late. It's an inside joke, in that Black people themselves refer to the term, and will make light of another Black person being late, or being known for being late for appointments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_People%27s_Time

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. You've never been in the position
of having your entire race judged or mis-judged by your personal "performance." I had to be "perfect" growing up black in white America. I integrated the school way-back-then and lived under a microscope as the "token." ANYTHING NEGATIVE I did was applied to Negroes-at-large and ANYTHING POSITIVE made me "one of the 'GOOD'ones" as I was the ONLY ONE.

If you like ice-skating, look up Debi Thomas. Her match with Katarina Witt is a case study. Being the first and/or only can truly take a toll on one's spirit. I MUST add that if one is the first/only even in a homogeneous setting many of the same dynamics apply. Crabs in a barrel and all...

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

-----This simply isn't true. If you're having a discussion with someone and they bring up race and you deny it, being white won't convince that person otherwise.

I cannot tell you how many times I have simply dropped the hot coal in the face of egregious racist attacks because if *I* called it out it would be dismissed as "being too sensitive" EVEN WHEN others recognized it. It's called circling the wagons. The WORST part was being approached later by someone who "didn't agree" but stood there SILENT as I was abused. That was an all-too-common heart-breaking experience. But if a white friend (particularly MALE) called it out, I could be sure the point would be accepted and clear.

Not knowing if you're really interested in seeing the view from the other side, I hesitate to expound further, however I welcome any inquiry.


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McHatin Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Actually
I've seen whites (including myself) be pre-judged, mis-judged, and judged in general by blacks because of the color of their skin quite often.

For example, I was on the AA basketball team in middle school, and black players on the A team would make fun of me and others on the team for being bad at basketball because we were white. I remember one time in practice in a one on one scrim, I kept stealing a ball out of the hands of one of my black teammates, and he got really pissed, simply because I was white, and therefore should suck compared to him at basketball. All in all, it made the basketball team pretty divisive and not the most fun activity. I could go on...

As for #30, in my experience it was because I am white that I could never say what was and wasn't racist. For example, if I said that those black players were being racist in the situation above, they would say that I'm white, so how would I know, and that blacks can't be racist. I've heard that reasoning numerous times. Course, I'm young, so maybe it has changed since your time.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #30
50. I feel you on #30.
I've had men - ones who have bought prostitutes, no less - tell me I don't know anything about feminism and am not in a position to speak about it objectively because I've had this happen or that happen to me.

It's the one area I can think of where people with NO experience think that people who HAVE personal experience are somehow disqualified from speaking on the topic.

And I've been involved in group conversations multiple times where someone has said "a white person needs to step forward and explain to this other white person why they are acting racist here." They know the white person isn't going to hear it from them. Likewise, on another forum, if I point out something is sexist, I get called all kinds of sexist slurs (in the rare cases they aren't just calling me a feminazi). If a guy does it, they'll listen - or at least ignore the comment rather than attack.

Look at the responses to women here when they point out sexism, and compare it to the responses ThomCat gets when he points out the same. There are probably some exceptions, but generally he doesn't get called feminazi, or told to "lighten up".
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
35. It's more that you are more likely to be born into a middle class
family and more likely to get a good education than anything else. Maybe going to meetings and it not being likely to be the only one of your race there. Less likely that the police will pay careful attention to what you are doing. Being able to drive without thinking you might get stopped without having done much of anything.

Though I think only really old, conservative people would let one person's lateness reflect on an entire race, etc.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Nah, I think the middle class is just more compliant with bigotry
I have some issues with this list, but I have retained criticism since it NEEDS to be addressed through governance of corporate behavior. Companies like Wal-mart and many others have gotten away with sexual discrimination for too long, just writing big checks as a result, while continuing to do it. Governing this problem requires more than legal penalties but pro-active regulation.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
39. Some of the reactions to this list are very telling. n/t
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. What are they telling us? It's very close to what I call DU political correctness.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 11:04 AM by Mountainman
If your born white it you can't do anything about it. If people chose to favor you, you can't do anything about it. And it doesn't say anything about you. So what's the point?
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. I'll tell you what the point is.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 11:22 AM by lwfern
Instead of saying generically "there's racism but let's not talk about it or analyze it," when you analyze and break it down, you can begin to address each problem.

It's from talking about it, from putting the statistics in front of people, and forcing them to look at it, that we can force the system to change to make things more equitable.

This is why, when you look at these lists and the responses, you can see the privileged people (for each of these lists) typically denying it, or saying "can we just stop talking about it, acknowledging racism is CAUSING racism." It's in their own interest to not have their privilege examined. "It's making me feel bad, please stop."

Just one example that comes to mind is the gender gap in hiring musicians. Once people started to say, look, you are hiring men over women when they are equally talented, there was that denial. "No, it doesn't happen. No, I can prove it's not true, because a woman beat me in an audition." "You're just trying to make men feel bad because you're a man-hater."

Eventually there was enough fuss that they went to blind auditions. They found that women were hired at higher rates when auditions were held behind a solid screen so the hiring panel could hear the violin without devaluing the playing because a woman was playing it. People didn't point out the inequity because they were audition-panel haters. They did it because women deserve a fair shot at auditions - they deserved to be judged on their talent, not their gender.

It's from increasing awareness and self-reflection that people (the people who give a shit, not the ones here who are more concerned about their bruised feelings than actual social justice) learn to check themselves and examine their own culturally induced prejudices. It's from studying gender issues that I have enough self-awareness that I don't tell my female students "you look nice today" - putting more focus on the looks of women, and the abilities of men, like studies have shown teachers do, without realizing it.

Don't you think there's value in pointing those things out to teachers? It's not to make teachers feel "bad" or fill them with "teacher guilt." That's ridiculous. It's so we can learn to create a more equitable society. For those of us who care.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. If we as individuals would learn to live a life were we respect all people things would be different
Trying to change a society to me is like pissing in the wind. It's a great thought but until individuals are willing to change themselves nothing will change.

During the Civil Rights era many laws were passed to end segregation and discrimination yet they did not force people to change their beliefs and attitudes.

Racism is a learned thing. We are not born that way. We are taught by elders. We can change how we interact with people if we decide to do so.

Being born white is not anything you need to apologize for. How you treat people can be.

I feel this type of intimidation tactic is like using vinegar to catch flies.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Nobody is asking you to apologize for being white.
Racism is a learned thing, yes.

And it can be unlearned, but not if people are too stubborn or in denial to put effort into that unlearning process.

Changing laws is a step toward changing segregation and discrimination. It's better than keeping laws that protect discrimination.

I'm sorry you don't have any confidence in the ability to change society. It makes me wonder why you are involved in a political discussion forum.

I'm glad MLK Jr didn't share your views.

You wrote: "We can change how we interact with people if we decide to do so." That "if we decide to do so" relates to how people view this list. Most of what we do culturally is invisible to us as "the norm" - it's not til we meditate on how it affects others that we understand what we are doing, and what those actions are.

So we drive into Detroit, and when we cross 8 mile, we lock our car doors and roll up the windows. If we forget at 8 mile, when we stop at a red light and look over and see a black person next to us, we realize we are in Detroit, and we lock the doors. It's just what our parents did, we do it. It feels normal, and hey, the crime rate in Detroit is high. You wouldn't see that as any kind of privilege, right? All you're doing is locking your doors.

The reason it's white privilege is because when your child asks, you never have to explain to him why people keep locking their doors when they look over and see your face in the car next to them.

I heard that from a dad whose child had asked him that question.

This is why this is often referred to as unpacking the INVISIBLE backpack.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. I would venture to guess MLK and I are closer than you think.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 03:32 PM by Mountainman
My ideas are based on Buddhism.

The ideas you talk about are part of what makes the world suck. It sucks because of our actions. Cause and effect. If we wanted to stop the "sucking" we have to work on ourselves. Each of us must decide to act in a wholesome way. If we all did that the world wouldn't suck so much.

I believe MLK was saying the same thing. He saw the promised land but knew he wasn't going to get there because people in this country weren't enlightened enough. What you are saying is that they still aren't.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. A little addendum to the "blind audition..."
NEVER WEAR HEELS. ;-)
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. Why does it seem impossible to talk about racism in a racism thread, and sexism in the sexism thread
Why must they always be conflated?

Racism is a very real thing with tangible, broad-based harm.

Sexism is also a real thing. The difference is that sexism is a sword which cuts two ways, and the harder it is swung the deeper it cuts when it rebounds. It is not at all clear which blade is cutting deeper.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Because they are not separate issues.
Take it from someone who has spent nearly 6 decades dealing with BOTH. ;-)
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
49. excellent post. nt.
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RedShoesBlueState Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
54. They don't "get it"
I'll bet the most negative responses to this are from the most privileged classes in our culture -- white males. I'll go one further -- white straight males who are relatively attractive and physically fit, and of a higher socioeconomic background. Why? Because they have rarely felt what it feels to be on the outside, looking in. They ARE what everybody wants to be (supposedly). They've never been female, or gay, or fat, or poor, or ugly. They just don't....well...they just don't "get it."

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