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So let me see if I understand this all correctly:

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 02:52 PM
Original message
So let me see if I understand this all correctly:
Iraq was a threat to be sure - but mainly to Israel and possibly other countries (Kuwait perhaps, Iran, etc) in the region.

They had the means to reach those countries with Scuds, and if they had chemical/bio/nuke weapons that is where they would have been used. Not the US - they had no means to get them here (unless they brought some over in a plane/ship - but they hate Israel more than us and they would be the easier target).

Clinton, Gore, Bush 1, Bush 2, and others all recognized that Saddam was a threat to the REGION.

So why is it we and the brits are the ones with the most people in this war, the most dying in this war?

Are we fighting this war for us or our oil buddies in the region, and Israel ?

Of course we have our own oil barons here and defense people making a ton of money off this war as well, but as far as the premise of the war 'neutralizing a threat' why are we out doing that for other countries?

The Summation as I see it: Our people, our soldiers (and by proxy their families, friends) are suffering terrible loss of life, limb, sanity, etc while the countries most at risk by Saddam sit by and watch us doing their bidding for them. Our people are dying while the people in this country who gain the most from the war are out on cruises or buying new mansions with the blood money - blood which is flowing more free than the oil.

Even IF we had found WMD's, even a few nukes, we were still not being threatened in the US by this (and if we feared saddam would sell em to terrorists, well let's think about what NK, China, or former soviet repulics could do....hmmm, the same thing??? Yep.)

Those who gained from this war - were not even in it. They had no stake in it. And those in the war? They gain jack shit, get crap health care when wounded, and are tossed aside.

I think that nearly sums it up. Pretty F'ing sad and sick.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Political contributions
And well endowed 'think tanks' can really give you great returns on your investment. That should be clear for all to see now, I would think. One can actually 'remote control' a superpower with just a couple of hundred million bucks spread around over a few years, instead of having your own population get killed and instead of spending half a trillion on a military mission.

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They supply the money and the missions, we supply the bodies
Pretty damned sad that more Americans aren't awake enough to see it.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. In 1990, Iraq was a threat to Kuwait
and we went to war. Did you object to that one, too?

Hitler certainly was no threat to this country. If you lived in 1940 (perhaps you did) would you have objected to that war, too?

I am proud to live in a country that does find itself responsible to defend its friends and allies. There is nothing wrong with that.

After all, most of us, liberals, want to help our fellow neighbors who are poor or sick or otherwise threatened. And we send police to the streets and their lives are in danger, too. Does this make you sad and sick, too? We are in favor of using our tax money to assist people in need even, and especially, when we personally are secure in our lives. Would you object to this, too?

Or, as with traits that we usually associate with the Republicans, you do not want an intervention until you, personally, or someone you love, is threatened?

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Friends and allies don't let friends pull an IUI
Invasion Under the Influence.

What friends? What allies? What need for defense? Saddam was pretty well reduced to bluster & rhetoric.
He was already a spent man.

There are some REAL threats out there. Those are being ignored because we have all our resources (and our grand-children's futures) spent in a lose/lose situation of Cheney's own making.

Wanna help defend America and our REAL friends/allies? Spend the money to reduce poverty, hunger, ignorance, injustice and hopelessness. Those are the REAL roots of terrorism.

Saddam had nothing to do with terrorists for the past many years. He was a contained loud mouthed lout and little more.

People who have suffered personal loss from this travesty often have to crawl into the delusion that it really was for some noble cause. Fact is, all the losses have been only for the profits of the few at the expense of the many.

Our real friends and allies tried to warn us of the folly. We did betray THEM.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I don't mind defending our allies - but where are their soldiers in this???
I would not have objected to fighting hitler, but if our country was the only one sending troops I sure would have.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. By 1998 at the latest Iraq was a threat to no one.
Edited on Sun Feb-25-07 03:47 PM by JackRiddler
And most of the countries you mention are either satellites of US will (Gulf States) or opposed the invasion (Iran).

There is no point in blaming other countries for actions that only the US and UK governments can actually order. All these security justifications - 9/11 and terrorism/"al Qaeda", WMDs, regional threats to Israel or whatever, the need for democratic states to reign in the dangers of Islamofascism - are just that. Justifications.

The invasion happened
a) because of a (hubristic) plan to secure the empire for another 100 years by demonstrating to the world the military capacity and "iron will" to seize the most important resource - even against near-universal opposition. This is the fascist mind-set.
b) to profiteer around oil. High price good, wild price fluctuations even better.
c) to rescue the dollar (petrodollarization was threatened by Saddam).
d) because an ME invasion was in the planning for 30 years! Ever since Kissinger's plan after the first oil shock and the Carter Doctrine. And damn, a military industrial complex wants to see its work fulfilled. War is the health of the state!

How else can you justify another 5-50 years worth of grabbing more than half of your tax money and sticking it into totally useless bullshit, all based on constantly manufactured fear scenarios?

What, you want me to add that a bunch of neocons in the planning departments can (on edit: CAN'T) distinguish between US and Israel? That's true, too. But do these Likud-oriented hardliners have any clue of what Israel's real interest is? They're wankers, plain and simple.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. this is one of my favorite starting off.....
places in understanding who, what, where, why, and when. It's the same old wine in a not so brand new bottle.
The Saga of Hog Island,1917-1921: The Story of the First Great War Boondoggle1
by James J. Martin

On April 6, 1917 the Congress of the United States declared war on Imperial Germany, in accord with the impassioned entreaties of President Woodrow Wilson. Barely five months after winning re-election, mainly on the slogan "He kept us out of war," the first of the great liberal heroes of the 20th century turgidly proclaimed the necessity of joining the great war now 2 1/2 years under way in the rest of the world, with the promise that further bathing the world in hot lead and blood would make the world safe for democracy and lead to a warless future.
These two goals were never approached, but the war had profound consequences nevertheless, launching a global revolution of many facets which is still going on, and in some aspects the tempo is still increasing. It is mainly irrelevant to note that the makers of this war never contemplated the possible consequences, and abusing them for their myopic preoccupations is too easy.
Without doubt the most significant impact of participation in World War One was upon the domestic scene. The Versailles Treaty, the League of Nations, the Briand-Kellogg Pact and the various other involvements in world affairs in the subsequent two decades aside, it was by far the centralizing and bureaucratizing of the United States in 1917-19 which represents the residuary and long term substance. The most remarkable aspect of this matter was the gathering together of the national economy under six great administrative boards, an experiment in economic tototalitarianism which was not lost on the politically percipient, to be revived in various forms and in other contexts ever since.
The comprehensiveness of this development was its outstanding feature, going beyond normal political partisanship and representing a mobilization of the total community in what amounts to the first essay in national state capitalism or national socialism in the United States.2 Though Americans have spoken and written many millions of words in execration of a one party state, wars in the 20th century have made possible the enjoyment of as close an approximation of a one party state as American circumstances have provided, to the great comfort and satisfaction of an immense number of the citizenry.
Under the aegis and inspiration of American wartime collectivism, there has flourished a peculiar form of cooperation between business and the state which ends up in something which is quite unlike what one finds in the peacetime world. 3 Aspects of this have persisted well after the end of wars, and have now become an integral part of the 'normal' order of affairs.4
Neither the United States nor the rest of the world got over the prodigious dislocations caused by the First World War. (Britain spent more between 1914-20 than that country spent in the previous 225 years together.)5 The world was unable to cope with 'peace' and 'normalcy' between 1919-29, and went into a steady economic decline, culminating in the collapse of 1929, which lasted over a decade. A resumption of war in 1939 set things aright once more. The war of 1939-45 was not followed by peace in the manner of 1919, but by the continuation of prodigious war expenses and concomitant employment, the so-called Cold War among the alleged victors.
The realization that war is an essential part of our world has come slowly to many, but it is being discussed more and more now, without the one time abuse and contempt that one once drew for maintaining this position. The contemporary economic disorder is still little examined in relation to the warming up of the Cold War and the phasing out of the war in Vietnam, the cause of gigantic slackening of enterprise which the re-heating of hostilities in the Middle East has not yet tightened up. A modifying factor is the continuous multi-billion dollar arms business annually with many nations not at war.

http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/hogisle.shtml









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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. I don't see how Iraq was a threat to ANYONE.
Edited on Sun Feb-25-07 03:41 PM by sfexpat2000
We'd starved them into submission (go! team!) with sanctions, and we'd been bombing them in "no fly zones" ( :eyes: ) for a dozen years.

When we invaded, Saddam was writing an OPERA.

Iraq was no threat to ANYONE. :shrug:
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. He was a threat to bush's ego :) (nt)
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. If threats to bush's ego = grounds for war, EVERYBODY is in trouble
x(
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Iraq was low hanging fruit for the vultures.
:shrug:
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