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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:34 PM
Original message
TPM: Bank Records Mass Scanned...ABC: Bank turns in Spitzer....
One:

Breaking: Massive Domestic Spying Uncovered

It is the closest thing I've seen to a complete explanation of the surveillance program the Bush Administration has assembled.

Siobhan Gorman of The Wall Street Journal reports this morning that the National Security Agency has assembled what some intelligence officials admit is a driftnet for domestic and foreign communications.

Here's the way the whole thing works, according to Gorman: into the NSA's massive database goes data collected by the Justice Department, Department of Homeland Security, and the Department of Treasury. This information includes data about email (recipient and sender address, subject, time sent), internet searches (sites visited and searches conducted), phone calls (incoming and outgoing numbers, length of call, location), financial information (wire transfers, credit-card use, information about bank accounts), and information from the DHS about airline passengers.

Then the NSA's software analyzes this data for indications of terrorist activity. When it hits upon a suspicious pattern, the NSA "feeds its findings into the effort the administration calls the Terrorist Surveillance Program and shares some of that information with other U.S. security agencies.”

...

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/todays_must_read_292.php


Plus One:

It Wasn't the Sex; Suspicious $$ Transfers Led to Spitzer

The federal investigation of a New York prostitution ring was triggered by Gov. Eliot Spitzer's suspicious money transfers, initially leading agents to believe Spitzer was hiding bribes, according to federal officials.

It was only months later that the IRS and the FBI determined that Spitzer wasn't hiding bribes but payments to a company called QAT, what prosecutors say is a prostitution operation operating under the name of the Emperors Club.

...

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4424507&page=1



Equals Two???

But, hey, everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey....
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. All the more reason to pay cash.
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yeah, but where do you get that? Take too much from the bank
they track that too. It's not like it's your money or anything.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Cash transactions of 10K or more are reported. Deposits OR withdrawals.
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madaboutharry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder how he hid these money transfers
from his wife. It was so much money. It wasn't like he was buying stuff at Target. He was spending about $5000 a pop.

We both know where the money is and how it is spent. They must have separate accounts I guess.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think bank managers are required to report transfers of $5k (makybe $10k) or more to...
...the government. Just off the top of my head, but I recall reading something to that effect.

PB
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. A $10K or more money transfer has to be reported to the Fed
...that's one way Limbaugh was tripped up in his drug case - he took out $9900 a pop to pay for his drugs. Essentially, it's a anti-money laundering tool.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Structuring....
...

Spitzer, who made his name by bringing high-profile cases against many of New York's financial giants, is likely to be prosecuted under a relatively obscure statute called "structuring," according to a Justice Department official.

Structuring involves creating a series of financial movements designed to obscure the true purpose of the payments.

....

My Guess? They knew EXACTLY where to look....
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. All employees of banks are required to report (CTR-Currency Transaction Report)
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 07:14 PM by MrsGrumpy
cash transactions of 10,000 or more. Also, even if a transaction under $10,000 looks suspicious, they are required to report it. (SAR--suspicious activity report). It's how they have been busting "terrorist cells" and money launderers for years.

I worked in a bank and used to get yelled at by liquor store owners about this all the time...when they would come in with deposits of $9,879 or $9921.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. So you are saying
that he must have had many transactions for it to be suspicious? A few movements of 5 grand would not be suspicious would it? I find this fascinating and kind of scary.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. How did Brian Ross and Lisa Myers miss the prostitution ring at the Watergate ?
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 06:56 PM by EVDebs
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12634250/

apparently only Duke Cunningham got 'exposed'. Now Bushco is using their 'intell' on their perceived enemies.

BTW, check the publishing date on the MSNBC story above. They've been sitting on this for HOW LONG ???
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Is ABC NOW saying the tap was on SPITZER?
I'm a little confused here. Because now it's beginning to look like the FBI set out to get something on Spitzer.

He was making money transfers in his private accounts?

And they decided to look....why?
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Bushco's surveillance society's biggest target
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 07:03 PM by EVDebs
Not a 'terrorist' but a wayward husband. FBI's Most Wanted targets. Further wastes of taxpayer dollars. Maybe failing to tax the transactions would be Bushco's biggest failure !

International 'ring' resulting from pre-surveillance of ...?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2982898
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. They're saying an alert bank manager noticed suspicious money movements...
suspected bribery, alerted the IRS....

who brought in Justice....

who brought in the FBI....

who got wiretaps that uncovered the prostitutes.

Again, my guess: They knew exactly where to look.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Is anybody buying this story?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Why, no. They are simply looking for terrorists...No...Really...
:rofl:
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. If they are large enough and/or frequent enough the bank is required
to report them. They would do it to you too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Read post #7, you appear naive on the subject.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Ummmm...no, but thanks anyway.
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 07:18 PM by MrsGrumpy
I know what I did for the bank from 1989 to 1997. :hi: See my post farther up sweetie.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. READ post #7
I know what went on since the fifties. CIA fun'n'games hits home.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. It is unfortunate that the net that has been in place for years, but is
not foolproof, has caught a guy that was supposed to be one of the good ones. I stand by the fact that this was a typical investigation. Much like Republicans and other Democrats who have been caught. Putting on tinfoil hats over this is a bit much.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. You obviously missed the date on the MSNBC article when you sped read the story
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 07:25 PM by EVDebs
Why sit on that story for YEARS yet go fullspeedahead with the Spitzer outing ?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2982898

Obviously you missed the prior spying on Democrats,

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0710-21.htm
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. We need to stop looking for conspiracies where there are none.
The unfortunate part of the story is that this even has to be at issue.

Spitzer should resign, we should focus on the important i.e. the war in Iraq, the fact that there is a huge UAW strike going on that no one appears to give a shit about, the truly illegal investigations and warrantless tapping of private citizens... I could go on. There is no conspiracy here. Only the stupidity of one man who thought he could get away with it. Why play with fire when the systems are in place to catch you?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. So..why do YOU think they're doing domestic spying?
:shrug:
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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
50. What does this have to do with domestic spying? CTR/SAR is not news.
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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
61. You appear unable to read. n/t
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Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
33. The way Spitzer has been pushing for an Indian casino in upstate NY...
...I was starting to think that maybe he was on the take.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. translation: they found the payments and what they were for and THEN labelled them 'suspicious'
it would be fantastic if this ends up being what reveals their evildoings re: domestic spying and particularly the domestic spying on their POLITICAL enemies that everyone knows has been going on whole scale from the beginning, from BEFORE 911.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. 1 + 1 = 2 .... Yep. This is what domestic spying is all about...n/t
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 07:25 PM by Junkdrawer
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Another 'terrorist' bites the dust. n/t
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Think of it as playing "The $64 Question" with a cheat sheet of all the answers...n/t
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #19
44. 1 + B = Apple
All cats have four legs.
Fido has four legs.
Therefore Fido, is a cat.

The Bush Administration is corrupt and criminal.
Spitzer got caught in criminal activity by the BA.
Therefore, Spitzer is the victim of corruption.

There is no current evidence to support a particular claim.
Lots of DUers say it's true.
They use lots of caps.
Therefore, it must be true.

:shrug:
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. A better analogy:
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 11:30 AM by Junkdrawer
It's wartime and you just found out that a mole has given your enemy a complete list of all your ammo dumps.

The next day, enemy warplanes bomb said ammo dumps.

Now, you have no PROOF that the enemy pilots were directed by the stolen info, after all, they could have just been lucky, but it's not an unreasonable guess.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Nope, not better.
All we know (sticking with your analogy) is that moles exist. We haven't found out that a mole provided a list of our ammo dumps...
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. So you don't think that Domestic Spying includes political enemies?
:shrug:
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. On the contrary, I'm sure it does
However, I don't think that every bad thing that happens to a public figure is the work of political enemies. Sometimes it's just the system operating normally. It's the old issue of correlation and causation - Spitzer has a lot of enemies and many of them are sleazoids, but the fact of of a negative outcome is not evidence of nefarious deeds.

I have no objection to speculation, but in the absence of any evidence, guesses (educated, reasonable, or otherwise) are a penny a dozen...
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
27. "He knows if you've been sleeping, he knows if you're awake"...
"he knows if you've been bad or good, so you better be good for goodness sake!"

Just like Santa Claus...
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
28. Spitzer is so sexy, I can't believe he needs prostitutes. n/t
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
29. strangely the article says they captured over 5000 phone calls from clients. So why
do they name ONE client?
the one who is a great democrat.....
and all the others?????
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. Spitzer went after Wall St. as an AG, and then they went after him?
:shrug:


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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
31. It's funny how our Justice Department..
works really, really well sometimes.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Almost like they knew just where to look, huh? n/t
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Roger Stone is so up on that...
kind of stuff.
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bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
35. Siegelman redux
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
37. Remember: This was money FROM Spitzer's accounts..not INTO...
Spitzer's accounts.

So why the bribery probes? :shrug:
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. They suspected he was paying off "friend's" in the Prostitution ring?
Edited on Tue Mar-11-08 07:02 AM by Breeze54
They knew they smelled something fishy going on?

They saw public officials also calling the ring?



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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Hiding money by routing it to accounts that no one knows about. Not exactly unheard of.
It's called "washing."
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
39. Kick
:kick:
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
40. Or the bank was simply following a law on the books since 1970
Suspicious transactions have been reported to the IRS for nearly 40 years.

Nah...that's too easy an explanation. It had to be something else far more sinister.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Good backfill explanation....and I'm sure lawyers we used to make sure...
it would pass muster in court.

But the timing of all this is way past "suspicious"...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2988882&mesg_id=2988882
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. extremely Suspicious
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
43. Spitzer was a "terrorist"
He terrorized Wall Street and the big Republican crooks. The only way he coud have escaped getting "payback" was to move to an island or to find a cave somewhere.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
45. I'm betting they have the dirt on every man and woman
in Congress who has a mistress and I'm betting they also know what the persons contributing to the Democratic Party have been up to for some time.

Bushco pulled off the best con in history. NO wonder he's singing.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. If you're a politician, KKKarl has an EXTENSIVE file on you...
and he will use that information whenever he needs to.

Every phone conversation...

Every email....

Every bank transaction...

...all logged and indexed for easy retrieval.

And he has a LARGE network of co-workers that will backfill apparent "triggers".

What is surprising is the restraint being used. Then again, perhaps it's true that the blackmail is far more extensive than even we suspect.

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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
53. This seems entirely on the level to me
We monitor bank transfers for suspicious activity (large amounts moving in a short time). Such transfers were noticed regarding Spitzer, so it was reported. Then it was investigated and illegal activity was found. This sort of information sleuth-work has been very important and significant historically (and very effective).

How is this not how we want our legal system to work?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. A man worth hundreds of millions makes several thousand dollar cash withdrawls...
and THAT immediately leads to an IRS/FBI/DOJ investigation complete with wiretaps.

I think they found out all about Spitzer's "hobby" through other, probably illegal, means and they backfilled the whole SAR story.

And I'm not alone.
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. How is that not suspicious?
How does it matter how much money he has, what person needs that much money in cash? The biggest reason to get that much cash out is to hide the money trail. It is inherently suspicious and hence worth of investigation. Money laundering and funneling money to other illegal activities certainly justifies wiretaps, and such huge cash withdrawals is enough evidence to warrant wiretaps and other investigations. This is a LOT of money that is just disappearing into the ether -- bear that in mind.

As for your "suspicions", I find it odd that when they present a proven investigative technique that works you decide not to believe it. You might not be alone, but it is a wholly unfounded allegation.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. ...or betting on horses...or a Vegas holiday...or a taste for expensive wines...
or a million things that the super rich do.

It's the kind of story that only looks reasonable because you know the conclusion. Hence the backfill hypothesis.

It reads like a bad TV mystery: I knew that the red mud on his shoe could only mean one thing: He murdered his wife for the insurance money.
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. You don't need cash for those things. If you do, you don't need to make a bunch of smaller...
...withdrawals in a short amount of time. What you say doesn't take into account that he didn't just take out a lump sum, he made a bunch of smaller withdrawals in a short period of time.

Additionally, for all you know they investigated and found he didn't bet or go anywhere to spend that sort of money (which he didn't need to withdraw money to do anyhow). Frankly, the whole of it is very suspicious with a minimal of effort, and that justifies the wiretaps, imho.
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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. The "structuring" was what got him busted. Only reason to do that is to avoid the report.
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 06:16 PM by BadgerLaw2010
If you need $20K in cash, why not just take out $20K in cash in a block without trying to hide your name?

Answer: You are trying to hide either the source or the destination from the government.
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haymakeragain Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
58. Correct me if I am wrong, but
if the information that led to this investigation which lead to his eventual resignation, and probably an indictment was gotten by unconstitutional means, doesn't he skate?

If the intent of these wide ranging searches are supposedly for terrorism suspects, isn't it illegal to use them for other crimes. I mean doesn't law inforcement have to have a warrant to search for these things? If they find something suspicious by way of these (what most of us believe to be unconstitutional) NSA dragnet searches, how can it be constitutional to then use this against someone who is not a terrorist, but just a "John".

HOLY SHIT!!!!!!! HAS SPITZER CAUGHT BUSH?

Isn't everyone completely surprised by this? Haven't we heard all sorts of people who know Spitzer closely saying they cannot believe what they are hearing? Maybe spitzer set up bush and he just sprung his trap. Is he that smart?
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
59. who are "client 7 and client 10"?
is the list of clients up for review anywhere or is Spitzer the only name they released? Oh, and QAT, wasn't that a drug used by native warriors in Africa at one time?
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