Is there truly room in DU for non college grads?

I'm asking this because lately there has been talk that college grads are smarter than non college grads. And it irritates me. For reasons that are my own I never finished college. That does not make me any smarter or dumber than those who did. It does make me have a different outlook on real life than some (not all) of the college grads though. I work in a blue collar job and am a proud Union man. I am also getting financially poorer by the day, or so it seems. But enough of the ranting. You all have a wonderful evening and remember, bushco can be beaten if we all work together. When I say bushco, I include McCain. He doesn't give a damn about us either.

:pals:

I'm almost a college Grad, by the grace of some deity. I went to CC at 26, soon to graduate from University when I'm 32. All are welcome, no elitist educational prejudice from me.

:)

oh, wait... :hide:

Nothing like a ride on a tractor.

:hi: :pals:

:D

:loveya:

;)

:rofl:

and have spent more time on my Deere and kubota than in the class room.

Regards, Mugu

...who basically spent four years in a drunken stupor and a combined total of twelve weeks actually studying, I have no illusions about the value of a college degree. What's more, my degree was so unrelated to what I eventually chose for a career, that I may as well have spent those years at the beach.

The only major difference I've seen between college grads and non-college grads, is that the the latter group often feel they have to prove themselves more. I used to work with an incredible intelligent and able man, who had worked his way up from a terribly deprived background to a senior role in one of Europe's largest companies, all without the benefit of a college degree. Yet, even after everything he'd achieved, he'd often turn to me after he'd yet again outsmarted me and say, "See, and I didn't even go to college. Imagine what I could do if I had?" It clearly rankled him enormously.

come to anything close to an agreement about that and if we can't agree about that we will never come close to agreeing about who is or isn't smarter than whom.

We can beat 'em if we all work together and that requires that we begin all interactions with respect.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T -- we need a whole lot more of it.

Peace.

:hi:

The people I deal with on a regular basis wouldn't be nearly as stupid as they are. Smarts don't come in a bottle. Some of the dumbest people I know have advanced degrees. One of them has a PhD in chemistry. He's dumber than a box of rocks, as I measure intelligence.

You don't need a degree to have a valid opinion.

Bill Gates for starters.

Here are some others:

Harry Truman
Abe Lincoln
George Washington
Gandhi
Hitler
Albert DeSalvo (Boston Strangler)
Pancho Villa

There are some distuingished names on that list, but two of them we can all do without. I will leave it up to you to decide the people. Probably no presidents though.

but had to drop out before graduation due to circumstances beyond my control. it will never make me feel "less" than one who has finished, and don't you let it either!

i encourage my sons to get a college education, but would not hold it against them if they don't. (financial) success is more than possible without a BA, and i'm living proof of that.

peace!

(on edit: oops, meant that for the OP!)

It aint rite if you doan let us in!

It is the ability to think, reason and use logic which generally sets Dems apart from the current batch of Rs.

Education can be obtained from the "school of hard knocks" as well as traditional institutions. I never finished my Master's thesis in music history, life got in the way... like a music degree means anything these days.

there'd only be 3 or 4 threads posted a day in GDP.

You're plenty smart enough here or in the real world, and don't let any dumbass make you think otherwise.

They are the genius of the Union movement.

Whatsa wobbly?

and morals...

I know many who don't have a degree but are brilliant, moral and just hard workers and I would rather work with them then the grads I noted above.

Hell yea you are welcome here, to hell with the elitist shit....Welcome!

just look at Congress.

This is why you can't use Bush as an example either.

Somehow I've managed just fine.

sw

at my local community college since 1967. 12 hours short of about 4 or 5 different two year degrees. i`m waiting till i`m 65 so i can go "free" because there`s no way i can afford to go now.

i`ve worked in two steel forges and a steel mill. i`ve worked putting together heavy machinery and i`ve worked in printing plant and i would`t trade what i`ve done for anything. i was born to make things with my hands and college was just something to round out who i am...

but overall smartness?? dont think so

... college grads, non-college, blue-collar, Union, etc.

If anybody tells you different or makes you ashamed of who you are, take this Chaplain's advice - tell their pretentious asses to fuck off.

Glad to have you here at DU! :hi:

We need more Union pride here at DU!

Like a former colleague of mine says, "You want a degree? I got 98.6 of them."

But there sure as hell isn't any room for him in here, or in the world for that matter.

* probably bought his grades...:eyes:

Din't hurt me none.

Sincerely,

Guy with three years of community college and around 150 credit hours.

Just ignore the idiots. :)

...and most of the smartest people I know didn't go to college at all.

:)

But it has served me well in the 20+ years since I got it. I've spent a lot of those years feeling educationally inferior to my friends who have graduate degrees. But over time, I've been more steadily employed than most of them, and have made a better living. I'm getting ready for a mid-life career change, and will be heading back to a community college to get another 2-year degree. I hope this one will serve me well for the next 20 years or so that I'll have left before retirement. (if I can ever afford to retire)

:sarcasm: especially in GD-P lately! :P

masters. A degree in my book does not equate to intelligence. In the cases I mentioned it made me wonder why some schools would give degrees to such obvious idiots, but I know many intelligent people who have them too.

Life is a classroom.

On the other hand, the smartest and most accomplished person I've ever known didn't go beyond high school.

I do think college requires a degree of intelligence. As long as the person in question isn't a legacy or an athlete, you can be pretty sure they possess at least an average intellect. Someone without a degree could be truly dense, or they could be a genius-- you just don't know.

Education is not a sign of intelligence. Higher education doesn't work for everyone, for a variety of reasons.
know lots of people who are very intelligent, but didn't go to college. Some of them are more successful than
people I know with PhD s.

Don't be intimidated by anyone who tells you they "know better" because they have a degree, higher IQ, or whatever.
You can contribute knowledge and experience to DU that they probably don't have. Furthermore, DU is better for having you.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=71944288

At least among young people, the non-college grads aren't participating in politics as much.

"A new study from CIRCLE found that while 1 in 4 eligible college students in Super Tuesday states went to the polls, the numbers were more like 1 in 14 for non-college youth. Levine says unlike in previous generations, non-college youth today are less likely to be involved in unions or social clubs that encourage political engagement."

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-9-20/59955.html

"On voting, for example, in the 2004 presidential election, among the 25-44 age grouping, 76 percent who were college graduates reported voting, compared to 49 percent of high school graduates."

I don't mean to be rude by pointing it out, just the fact that this is an issue that needs to be addressed in political interest of college vs. non-college grads. Hopefully revitalizing the union movement will help encouage more voting and political interest.

Ah well, flame suit on

I work with a group I call the "Kiddy Corps" who are good young men but who chose not to attend college. And getting them to care about what's happening is nearly impossible. But I go back to my misspent youth and I empathize. I also fear for their future, not because they are not college men, but because they may have little future. But then college people may not have a lot of future if we can't get things straightened out soon.

where the hell were they in NH? I'll tell you where. They didn't show up.
Those Ivy league college students were on break and didn't vote!

I wonder what other factors Circle took into consideration; like voter caging,
incarcerated pop., disenfranchised (needed an ID?), voting irregularities? (e-voting).

"non-college youth today are less likely to be involved in unions or social clubs
that encourage political engagement."" :crazy: (no kidding! Thanks to Reagan.)
But I'll bet they hear about it at work after they see their paychecks.

And it has been addressed by many organizations but I think this year is different.
At least from the turnout I've read about at all the primaries so far. It's been
record breaking and I doubt all the new voters are in college or college degreed.

---------------

Poor People Rising Up to Vote: What Is Really Going on in Ohio

http://faithfulprogressive.blogspot.com/2008/03/poor-people-rising-up-to-vote-what-is.html

Tuesday, March 04, 2008

Twice a month, every month, cars line up to get a box of food from the wooden pallets at the Smith Chapel Food Pantry in this gray southeast Ohio town. The only thing that changes is that the lines and the wait get longer and, alarmingly, the food gets scarcer.

snip-->

But something unusual is happening in this vehicular food line, and it's not confined to the immediate issue of feeding families or worrying that the food boxes will be gone before the cars reach the front of the line. Low-income people who are less inclined to vote are talking with a new urgency about the importance of the presidential race and how it could affect their daily lives.

Most express an interest in the Democrats, and more in Barack Obama than Hillary Clinton. The vote is for dramatic change.

"This isn't like four years ago, when I wasn't paying any attention," said Betty Dowden, sitting behind the wheel of an 18-year-old Buick LeSabre, careful to keep the windows up and the heat inside the car while her 11-month-old son, Lucas, slept in the back seat.

"I wasn't really into politics, but I truly believe we're headed into a depression," said Dowden, who suffers from cystic fibrosis and recently lost her job at a Wendy's restaurant. "It is desperate. Somebody has to make a difference."(snip)

snip-->

In neighboring Athens County, which has a poverty rate of 30 percent, Jack Frech, director of the county's Department of Job and Family Services, said voter registrations at his office more than quadrupled the normal traffic in January.

"I think people have drawn the connection between their problems -- health care, the price of gas, losing their job, the cost of the war, the tattered social safety net -- and the government," Frech said. "If we as a country saw people someplace else waiting in line for five hours for food like they do here, we'd call that a human-rights violation."

------------------

original article----

Poor, hungry and ready to vote in Ohio

Many see a chance to improve their daily lives by turning out for presidential election

By Tim Jones | Tribune correspondent
March 3, 2008

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-ohio-working-poormar03,0,1639973.story

snip-->

Strong interest?

Studies have shown a correlation between income and voting habits, with the more affluent being the most consistent voters. Statistics and anecdotal evidence, however, suggest strong interest in Tuesday's Ohio primary among low-income voters, who historically have been less likely to go to the ballot box.

County election boards report dramatically higher registration numbers. In Hocking County, where Logan is the seat of government, absentee ballots are up almost 250 percent over the 2004 primary, and Lisa Schwartze, the election board chairwoman, predicts turnout Tuesday will be 40 percent, up from 30 percent in 2004.

snip-->

Before the morning's food distribution began, relatively few drivers kept their engines running continuously, despite the freezing temperatures. Gas costs $3.15 a gallon, and engines were being run just long enough to get some heat in the car. Franklin Welch, a retired local government worker, turned his pickup's ignition on only when the line started moving at 8:30 a.m.

"I used to tell very few people I was a Democrat, but by God I'm telling everyone this year," Welch said, complaining about health insurance costs that "folks around here making $5 and $6 an hour can't afford."

Here's to hoping that trend continues until November! ;)

I hope this keeps up and we have to do everything we can to make it possible for people to vote who want to vote.

Sadly there is an inverse relationship between progressive/liberal positions and voting. White evangelicals who make decent money vote at least 80% of the time, and they vote GOP. non-whites, working class/middle class people or the working poor or the young lean liberal and only vote about 50% of the time.

This is not new but it's changing.

There are many reasons why voters have been disenfranchised.

See: GOP

I don't agree. You can't blame it all on the GOP. Alot of the blame goes to voters and people who don't try hard enough to get people registered.

http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2004/0104cervantes.html

Of the last four presidential elections won by the Republican candidate, the two closest ones (in 1980 and 2000) would have gone to the Democrat had lower-income people voted in the same percentages as higher-income groups. So suggests an analysis of data from the General Social Survey, a personal interview survey of a representative sample of U.S. households conducted regularly by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago

In 2000, a majority of voters in the lowest four out of five income quintiles reported choosing the Democratic candidate. In 1980, a majority of voters in three out of five income quintiles reported choosing the Democratic candidate, and the fourth quintile was nearly tied. Low- and middle-income people are far less likely to vote, however. As the table shows, the GSS data suggest that there is typically a 25 to 30 percentage-point gap in participation between the lowest and highest income quintiles. The data for every election show a clear pattern: turnout and the portion of the vote going to the Republican candidate both rise as income increases.

I have a college degree, but I'm certainly not superior to those without one.

My parents, for example, are both highly intelligent and neither finished college. And hey look at Bush and David Vitter. Both have the IQ of a styrofoam packing peanut and have Ivy League educations.

Heh I remember being in my college dorm elevator with an Egyptian hieroglyphic necklace on. One of the girls in the elevator with me asked if the necklace was in Saudi Arabian. LMAO

There will always be those that think that IQ, degree, whatever makes them superior to others. It doesn't. Those things are just a crutch that an insecure person uses in order to feel better about him or herself.

Don't let them get to you. :D

:wtf:

You are stupid only if you cannot listen to others. If you are willing to listen to others and consider what they can teach you, you will continue to learn and grow and be smarter for it.

Besides, I am constantly amazed at what kind of dumb-asses managed to get advanced degrees! :shrug:

Of course, that doesn't apply to anyone here at DU. I'm so glad I found this place! :loveya: DU! :toast:

Can I get in the club?

"...that college grads are smarter than non college grads." Because if I ever came across such bullshit, I'd remember and I'd be calling them out.

sw

to get through college. When I wasn't streetwalking with L. Ron Hubbard.

Can I stay anyway?

:scared: :rofl:

:rofl:

:eyes:















:rofl:

:thumbsup:

so, I guess it is true that graduating from college doesn't necessarily make you intelligent.

... I know for a FACT that mediocre minds can easily get a masters degree, I've met them. It's all a matter of perseverance, not intelligence.

Don't waste you time on what people think, most people can't and many that can won't.

I'm asking this because lately there has been talk that college grads are smarter than non college grads.

George Bush went to college
So did Dick Cheney
So did Donald Rumsfeld.
So did Condi Rice (damn! she even got a PhD!)
Karl RoveM
Alberto Gonzalez
Poppy Bush
Brownie (Michael Brown/FEMA)
Alan Greenspan
Robert Novak
Anne Coulter
Bill O'Reilly
Mike Huckabee
Mitt Romney
Rush Limbaugh
Mike Savage
Rudy Guiliani
Fred Thompson
John Gibson
Newt Gingrich
Tony Snow
Sean Hannity
John McCain
William Krystol
Paul Wolfowitz
Doug Feith,
Henry Kissinger
Jonah Goldberg
Tucker Carlson
Joe Scarborough
John Bolton
Alan Keyes
Richard Perle
Brit Hume
Chris Wallace

...

oh! please don't make me go on!

Though its really nothing I should be proud of, the GED does allow to me to enter college courses, like for two of my jobs, welding and pools/spa operator certification. Who knows what I could be doing if I graduated and went to a 4 year college. Right many people who went through college arent as successful as those who work from the bottom up, like, say for a company such as Lowes. We have a family friend who worked for Lowes for 20 years, started out at the bottom, worked his way up to management position over the years. He also bought company stocks, and when he retired after 20 years, he became a millionare!

Now at 21, I have my own house, a couple vehicles. I got "work" in my blood. Cant sit around and do nothing.

A good proportion of them know TOO MUCH about what amounts to VERY LITTLE indeed. So know, DUers should lay off the degree chest beating.

:evilgrin:

Sid

that I'm in possession of more general knowledge than a lot of college graduates. I'm also in possession of more specific knowledge in various fields than many college graduates. This is because I've done my level best to self-educate in areas that interest me, but don't interest them.

For example, I made the new DUzy award graphic, but I doubt there are many MBAs who could do that. They graduated from college, and I didn't, but that didn't hinder me in the least. I bet many MBAs couldn't write a piece of music to save their lives, but I can do that, too.

That said, there are many (read: all of the following category) graduates in the field of 3D modeling/animation who are light-years beyond me. In fact, there are first-year students in that field who are well beyond where I am.

My point is, there are many, many people who are 'experts', or at least fairly knowledgeable, in one area or another, who are totally clueless about other things outside that. The real real dumb-as-the-box-the-rocks-came-in coworker you barely tolerate could be a master of crochet or knitting, for example, and you would never know.... but that is surely useful knowledge you don't have.

Surprise! Knowledge is never wasted, unless you want to waste it.

Yourself mournning the lack of a degree:


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is
true that most stupid people are conservative."


- John Stuart Mill


"Congress is America’s only genuine criminal class."


- Mark Twain

Common sense is one missing ingredient in modern life today - and as we get deeper and deeper into a society that views punching little buttons with little fingers faster and faster as being of more and more value, all I can say is there better be a god - we need someone to save us.

And fast.

and having spent years in grad school, I know that there are a lot of stupid Ph.D.'s who received their degrees after writing a trivial dissertation about some fluff subject.

Smart is as smart does.

that burden students with debt and not much to show for them when their obtained. Don't tell my kid I said that. :evilgrin: :toast:

Besides, many degree fields are USELESS.

Uh, what did the Wizard say to the Scarecrow... ?!1 Oh, yeah, here's IMDb:


Wizard of Oz: Why, anybody can have a brain. That's a very mediocre commodity. Every pusillanimous creature that crawls on the Earth or slinks through slimy seas has a brain. Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning, where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts and with no more brains than you have. But they have one thing you haven't got: a diploma.

-------------------------------
Scarecrow: The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. Oh joy! Rapture! I got a brain! How can I ever thank you enough?

Wizard of Oz: You can't.

:)

Mensa member yet I don't have a degree; nothing there but a bunch of facist bullshit to learn anyway. The biggest idiot I ever knew (Republican of course) had a degree, it means nothing to me.

but some of the smartest people I know never went to college and some of the dumbest people I know have PhD's. Smart is a relative term anyway and there are multiple intelligences. Drop the smartest person in the world into the Australian bush and his book knowledge means nothing. A 14 year old bush child would "know" more.

I know people who have no book knowledge but can take a car engine apart blindfolded...that is intelligent.

i'm sure i would be welcome here just as much as i am now with or without a college degree

A lot of people who make a big deal about their education are doing so in order to make up for insecurity - so don't let it phase you. Some of the most intelligent people I've met never went to college.

:hi:

I don't think it is appropriate to denigrate the value of an education either. Reading the remarks, I think it is worthwhile drawing a bright line between intelligence and education. No, an education doesn't make someone "smart" or "intelligent". However, it probably isn't going to make them dumb either.

School is a way of condensing the lessons from experience and building on those lessons in a systematic way that seldom takes place in daily life. If you take a bonehead and educate them, they are still a bonehead. If you take an intelligent person, however, and expose them to a good education, then they are able to more fully utilize their intelligence than they probably could without the education. I suppose you could liken it to any craftsman - they are only as good as their tools. If you have a good craftsman s/he can often do a better job with poor quality tools than a poor craftsman can do with high quality tools.
For purposes of problem solving, education can be seen as a chance to gain a set of high quality tools; it says nothing about the ability of the craftsman. We shouldn't forget, however, that an excellent craftsman with high quality tools is probably going to produce the best results.

I think what I'm responding to is a trend towards anti-intellectualism that has been pushed by the fascists of the right for as long as I can remember. In our effort to make everyone feel at home and to give due weight to the opinion of each individual, it is prudent to remember that making sense of complexity is a skill that we need to solve the complex issues we face.

My greatest regret is the huge number of people who are very intelligent that fail to get the educational tools they need to fully utilize their abilities. Look at the number of posts where people speak of extremely intelligent people who haven't gone to college. To me, that isn't proof of an equivalency between educated and non-educated people; it is evidence of a culture that is squandering yet one more precious resource. Get rid of all the educated idiots and devote the resources to those who can most effectively utilize the tools provided by education.

I have a Masters degree, and I worked really hard to get it. I was not one of these casual, party-hard students we hear so much about. I got a good education because I enjoy school and I took studying seriously. However, I have friends who are just as smart as I am, who are/were not interested in formal education. I am a first generation American, and I am the first person in my American family to get a Masters degree.

:toast:

I always believed in the value of education for its own sake, and I legitimately enjoyed most of my college education and graduated with honors. I did a lot of self-education even before going back because I couldn't go to college at all until my late 20s, and yet I can say that there were some very cool things I learned in my college education. However, I'm now $35,000 in debt for it and so far have had to defer repayment because I can't find a job. Many times since finishing my degree I have wondered if it was really worth it, or if maybe college is just a way of keeping the unemployment numbers artificially low (since many people don't work full-time while in college, thus keeping them out of the full-time labor force for a few years, and if you enter the job market after completing college and can't find a job you're not counted as unemployed).

I do believe that a college degree is a worthwhile pursuit. However, I don't think it really says much about how smart a person is. What matters to me, and what the vast majority of DU posters have in common regardless of official educational attainment, is a willingness to stay aware about the world around you and not just allow yourself to become a sheeple. What matters is whether or not you think and you don't need a degree to do that.

We're in the same boat, it appears. You and I are both hoping to find a suitable career. Hopefully our college degrees will help us, but then again, maybe they won't. :pals:

But I graduated from the school of hard knocks. I am now working as a copy editor. All my fellow copy editor colleagues have journalism degrees and I do not even have a high school diploma.

:)

And I use it well :)

who never went to college either. We are not bricks in the wall.