White privilege, or class privilege?

As I stated yesterday when somebody else posted this SAME thread. Nearly every single one of these can be directly related to economic class rather than skin color. Some of them are just flat false and based on flawed premises or the subtle racism of the author.

In my arguments below I'm going to go on the assumption that most of us can tell by looking at, listening to, or observing their behavior can determine whether an individual is lower class, middle class, or upper class. While we claim to live in a classless society here in the US, that is REALLY not the case, and shame on anybody who would say otherwise.

I do attribute a few of these as purely race based. But they are the exceptions in this long list of things that can far more easily be attributed to class, or the author's bizarre work place.




This is a false claim that blacks do not have similar options to exist in a primarily black world. Minorities have neighborhoods, groups, organizations, clubs, restaurants, etc... that for the most part are minority owned, operated, and patronized by said minority.

Gays, (and I know this cause I am one) can live practically their entire life in their gay ghetto if they so desire. All their friends can be gay, the bars they go to are full of gays, they belong to gay organizations, etc...



This is a social economic class thing. White middle and upper class individuals have about as much desire to spend time with poor whites as they do poor blacks.



That's quite a statement to say that middle class black people can't find the same level of comfort if they want to move. Or is this statement reliant on the false assumption that all blacks are poor and have to live in run down parts of a town?



I would say that this one may be true. +1 for the tally.



Lower class white individuals who dress in thug wear, look like drug addicts, can't afford proper hair supplies or make up, also have this problem. Perhaps upper and middle class black individuals do to, but then again, I'm white and solidly upper middle class, and I've been followed around a store and harassed by security. God only knows what I did to make them suspicious...



Lower class individuals of any race well be hard pressed to see themselves represented fully in the media. Last I checked there are a whole host of TV shows featuring Middle class black families.



Lower class whites are rarely told that they are the ones who fought the battles for the revolutionary war, and the civil war, thereby making the real difference. Everything in our history books are centered on the decision makers at the top, who, in our country's history, happened to have been white and very very wealthy.



I received quite an education on native Americans, Chinese railroad builders, and African Americans both as slaves and as civil rights leaders in my public school education.



While it would be suicidal for any black writer to write a similar piece on "black privilege" (Bill Cosby's current pariah status for example) if shopped around I'm sure it would find a publisher, if it were well written. Just like your piece. #9 by the way, strikes me as completely 100% off topic.



Yeah, so? You don't think lower class people of any race have trouble not being discounted in group discussions? This is a false argument so there is NO evidence that a black individual of middle class or upper class standing would find themselves discounted.



FALSE. You've mistaken being rude for being racist. What an absolutely appalling thing to have admitted to. I very much doubt that you do this solely based on race. What if somebody looks like white trash to you? What if they are a white Republican? What if they are a teenager? I bet you discount people in all settings for sorts of reasons. Shame on you.



I'm going to assume you are not talking about modern pop music in which African-American artists currently rule the day. Instead I'm going to guess you mean classical music created by my race or people of origins. This argument then is false. Unless you are specifically of German, Austrian, or Italian descent you probably don't have many options in the way finding your historic roots classical music in a store.



I would almost give you this one, except that lower class white individuals who do not have perfect teeth, cannot afford (or are not aware of) current hairstyles, dress in lower class "gang" apparel, etc... can face the same problem



FALSE. You're making the assumption again that only black people live in crime ridden poor areas.



I'm going to half give you this one. The same level of education has to take place for poor people of any race due to the systems in place to keep them poor, deprived, and indentured.



TRUE



Are you serious? This is a cultural thing. Some cultures (off the top of my head the Chinese I've known) do not have this as part of their etiquette. It's not racist to notice this. I noticed Chinese people often speak a dialect of Chinese... noticing that doesn't make me racist either, it just means I have ears. Just like noticing people of a certain race chewing with their mouth open just means I have eyes.



FALSE. Once again, what the fuck is this? Poor people of any race has this problem.



FALSE. If you are educated on the subject you are speaking on, people who have invited you to speak are interested in that subject, not your race.



I've been told this as a white person.



I've been asked this question as a white person.



Maybe that's because where you live you're in a solid majority. Where I live here in the US the Chinese are actually the majority and while I don't know Mandarin, I do know quite about Chinese cultural norms from living in such proximity.



ANY person in ANY race or social economic group would have this problem. Hell, I think just posting this makes you a cultural outsider BECAUSE YOU the poster (not the original author) lack critical thinking skills to question some of the points made here. No you just cut and paste them as your own thoughts, and to me that makes you a complete cultural outsider because you've turned your brain off.



FALSE. Most government or health care offices I've been too lately are strongly populated by black individuals, at management and supervisoral levels as well. Lower class individuals of any race definitely cannot say they'd be able to find somebody of the same economic class level to speak to if they asked for a "person in charge."



POOR people driving have the same problem. Since there is no "race" bubble on IRS tax forms I have my doubts about the second part.



??? You don't think minorities can find these things? Apparently you're only shopping in neighborhoods where there are white people by an overwhelming majority. Oh, suddenly this is all making sense. You're OBVIOUSLY a middle/upper class suburbanite.



Are you going to KKK rallies? I bet you fit right in. Try a black panther rally next time if you want to try wearing the other shoe. FALSE.



WOAH!? You actually hold this in your head as a truism? Good god you're a racist. FALSE.



This is based on a false premise that the opposite would be true for a non-white. FALSE.



FALSE. If you are white and declare either way you are likely to be labeled a racist and completely lacking credibility as a result. As a white person we are very rarely permitted to discuss race issues honestly without being thought of negatively by others.



Most people of any race don't pay attention to the developments of minority groups they don't belong to. FALSE.



This is rather vague, but could true.



A reflection of, or a trait of? Are you saying that different races do not possesses these various qualities? FALSE.



FALSE. When I discuss racism I offend people. I'm sure many of you reading this are DEEPLY offended by what I have said. Regardless of the accuracy of what I've written. I am of course willing to listen to opossing view points, but don't expect me to stop using my brain.



TRUE. This is one of the major pitfalls of affirmative action.



I'll give you day, and possibly week, but not months or years. Half True.



You must work in the most vile of workplaces if the minorities have these concerns you've listed. FALSE.



We have a black man running for President. And while there is a question of whether or not certain elements of our society would vote for him, the data from primaries isn't yet showing people won't.



SERIOUSLY where do you fucking work?! This is the most toxic work place I've ever heard of! FALSE.



TRUE. I'm going to give you this one because there are certainly places in this country where I'm sure minorities people are hassled.



TRUE.



Well, you obviously live in Suburbia where this sort of thing is possible. I don't.



Jesus christ your workplace is TOXIC. FALSE.



African American Studies was one of the largest programs at my university. There was not however a coursework that focused solely on white American history. FALSE.



I'm going to choke this lack of knowledge about other races art to your living in suburbia.



They never match mine. Lucky you. FALSE.



TRUE.



Middle class and upper class blacks probably don't have this problem. I bet lower class blacks do though, just like lower class whites and latinos do. FALSE.



You really reached for up your ass for this one. Texts in most schools represent ONLY the nuclear family. And considering 50% of American children (of any race) or living in divorced homes this one is ... FALSE.



I can't speak to an individuals level of feeling welcomed or normal. I suspect, although I may be wrong, that most middle and upper class black people who have adopted upper and middle class lifestyles, etiquette, and behaviors, rarely feel out of place. However those individuals of any race who are poor, do not have the education on etiquette and proper middle class/upper class socialization would probably feel out of place. FALSE.

spectrum of what's called "racism" in the US, & it's very convenient for some parties to focus on racism in order to 1) divert examination of class, & 2) subvert attempts at inter-racial solidarity.

But if we instead allow our selves to be attribute all of these to race it becomes a "not my problem" scenario for the majority of the country that does in fact share most of these problems.

that would vote against their OWN INTERESTS, identifying with the ruling classes, who give NOT A SHIT about them but reassure them that "At LEAST you're WHITE?" Hmmm??? :freak:

Divide and conquer.

But the fight against racism does not mitigate against class consciousness or impede class struggle.

Wow.

I'll bet you are white.

It's funny that you would try so hard to prove that the only prejudice that exists is the one that might affect you.

Geez!:eyes:

Since you clearly didn't get much past the first sentence or two, let me clarify for you. He's white, upper middle class, gay and probably lives in an urban environment. The last item on the list was the only one I guessed at, had you read the post, you would have known the other three, but then, had you read and thought about the post, you wouldn't have posted something so very incorrect about what the OP said.

I went to recommend this and got the error that states I can only recommend threads started in the last 24 hours. Too bad, because this one is amazing! I never saw the original but your willingness to take on such bigotry point by point is astounding and way more patient than I ever could have been!

And thank you for bringing up that blind spot in the U.S., that being class. In England and India and many, many other places, it's very, very obvious. Here, while I think it should be obvious, it isn't. It's like it hides in plain sight.

Between the ages of birth and 18 years, I lived in a two parent household (middle class), a one parent household with my mother as my sole provider on a nurse's salary, which back then wasn't as good as now, then, with her death, I went to live with my father and stepmother who were upper middle class and lucky for them, because CPS didn't care to hear mine and my step siblings stories of mental, physical and sexual abuse, then, when I divorced them (ran away at 13), I went to live with my grandparents in central Florida and we lived in a trailer and they were on Social Security so we were poor, poor, poor (I never knew until adulthood what a cracker was, but I was called it a time or two). I think that quick romp through my childhood is why I can see the classes so much better than my fellow citizens. Oh, yeah, the other thing is that I'm poly and I have pretty much chosen to surround myself with like minded folks (including LGBT though sometimes, that doesn't go both ways) so I have as good a concept of the gay ghetto as a hetero probably can. My partners and I have carved out as middle class an existence as we can. Race has played little part in my life but boy, money and class have certainly carved huge swathes through my life.

BTW, I totally agree with you on the toxic environment that person works in, though they certainly seem to like it. Ewwww.

and I will not spend an hour analyzing your post.

Your agenda is clear, and I've seen it before.

Bottom line, you are not black, will never be black, and will never be able to know what it is to be black, though if you shut up, listen, and study some you will find out a lot more. Being black is an experience you can't have and are therefore in no position to judge. I doubt that it will stop you. In the aftermath of the Wright videos has been a gigantic display of white ignorance on this very forum from a shockingly large number of posters.

Trying to pick apart each point on this list shows your defensiveness, and little more, in my opinion. You WANT it to be about class, and at the same time want to gloss over racism. Many want to gloss over racism, so they don't have to deal with it, thinking if we just don't talk about it, it will magically disappear. Sorry, doesn't work that way. Most who want to gloss are also the most ignorant of the subject, unfortunately.

Class is also a factor in this society. So is gender. And so is race. White privilege exists.

However, some of the things on that list don't seem to fit that mold at all. Numbers 48, 49, and 50 would seem to only apply in families that diverge from the whole "nuclear family" model of Mom, Dad and kids. That means Unmarried couples, single parents, GLBT households and families all face this obstacle regardless of race, the only exception to this would be would be interracial couples, which, unfortunately, also face this obstacle.

Other parts of the list, such as number 2, seem to make assumptions about white people that may not apply. In the case of number 2, if a white person actually doesn't trust other white people(or want to associate with them), do they still have this privilege, or does it no longer apply?

Most of the list I agree with, but the problem with lists like this is that they list things that are so general they can be interpreted in any number of ways, such as the way I interpreted numbers 48, 49, and 50.

But I think white privilege does exist and the targets would know more
about that than any white person and also classism, ageism, misogynism, etc.

:P

A lot has changed in 20 years and some stuff is still the same, sadly.

You do know that list was written by a woman from Wellesley College, right?

I was mortified by the original list and I admit, I assumed it was written by a white male of the freeper variety. Boy, ever since March 18th, I've been getting smacked upside the head with my assumptions and how they can be just as bigoted as well, what we talked about it the other day. I've been doing a lot of self examination of recent and for that, if for nothing else (but there is much else), I have to give thanks to Barack Obama.

'freeper variety' though. ;) She IS the privileged class!

She was trying, so I can't fault her but you see what I mean? :P

really, really sad.

some things have changed, I think but of course, not all.

You don't have the original link?

Here....

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

Peggy McIntosh is associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women. This essay is excerpted from Working Paper 189. "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming To See Correspondences through Work in Women's Studies" (1988), by Peggy McIntosh; available for $4.00 from the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, Wellesley MA 02181 The working paper contains a longer list of privilege

Just because he is white does not mean he has no right to comment. The piece he was commenting on was an academic one, meaning it is open to debate and criticism.

You know damn little about racism in the US

is the huge overlooked elephant in the room. It encompasses racism and ageism and sexism, femaphobia and homophobia and all the others I'm not thinking of right now. It is the biggest -ism we have and it's mostly that big because we don't SEE IT! And saying that no one who isn't a certain color can know anything about racism is just not smart. Any white person who has lived in Japan can tell you all about racism. I was called a cracker and certain people stayed away from me in high school because I lived in a trailer, but because I'm white, are you going to say that a priori, I have nothing to say about racism? If I were a man, would you say I have nothing to say about sexism. Come on, think about it!

Really, kwassa, isn't that chip getting awfully heavy? If you take it down a notch, we'll all be happy to help you carry it. I don't know if you realize it, but most of us here are on your side.

imo the OP has it right.

class matters WAY more than race.

OJ, a rich black man got off. a poor white or black man. conviction almost certain (and OJ was OBVIOUSLY guilty)

i can also tell you (ime) that so called racial profiling is largely a myth and grossly overblown. heck, most cops would WAY rather stop a white person because then they don't have to worry about specious racial profiling grievances. cops would rather stop a "dirtbag" in an old corvette than a middle class black asian or white guy in a nice car, and poorer/lower class (especially whites ) recognize this. i remember speaking with a guy one of my partner's shot in his hospital room. (he was shot despite being unarmed). he said (correctly) that there would be no big marches or inquiries for HIM because he was just poor white trash meth addict. so true. it's a class thing.

otoh, class profiling DEFINITELY occurs. i've seen it, it's undeniable.

fwiw, one example of the racial profiling myth is that police stops of minorities almost EXACTLY correlate with with national crime victimization surveys of crime VICTIMS as to the VICTIMS identification of the race of their offender.

in most neighborhoods where i have lived, people want responsible neighbors. class matters, race not much at all. most people want to live next to people who mow their lawn, don't throw loud parties, don't have junker vehicles parked in front, etc. iow, much more class issues than race issues.

comedians have made great strides recently in "redneck humour. rednecks have LONG been a source of derision from blacks AND whites. heck, i know more than one person who considers themself a black redneck i might add.

that's a class issue. and these comedians (and comedians are great social commentators) have routinely pointed out how bigotry is directed toward them based primarily on CLASS and culture.

i'm a minority, i've faced discrimination. i've faced hate speech, btw.

i also like the OP's comments of affirmative action

good post imo

denial is also a component of privilege, and so is the belief that you have the ability to define what is and is not racism, even if you don't experience it.
and another thing, even as the vestiges of racism have diminished (like mandated segregation) the practices of racism continue. some of these practices are subtle (like at my job, where all the managers happen to be white, and all the lowest paid workers happen to be black and latino..it's all just a coincidence, according to management) and sometimes not, e.g., charging non-whites higher interest rates.

As a gay white man, however, I do think that living my life surrounded by ONLY other gay, white people would be inexpressibly tedious. I like a lot of variety in my friends and acquaintances. Here in the rural south, one learns to be a bit careful about how one treats people according to their appearance or assumed economic status. Many quite wealthy people "dress down" deliberately and drive around in beat-up old pickup trucks. :hi:

As a gay white man, however, I do think that living my life surrounded by ONLY other gay, white people would be inexpressibly tedious.

Totally with you on that one.

Man, she loved her truck!

There is no conflict. It is not either/or.

To understand racism is to understand class struggle and vice versa.

So, yes, both, as well as ageism, sexism, femaphobia, homophobia, etc. I think the Republicans especially like to use these other -isms to keep us infighting and voting on silly "wedge" issues. If we would get that classism is the biggest -ism in the room and unite within the classes and heal the only two classes that really can heal, the lower and middle classes, we can take take out the ones playing the divide and conquer game, those being the filthy rich upper class or the 2%ers or the Marie Antoinetters, if you prefer.

There is a very, very small group of "them" who don't want "us" to figure out their gig and they keep getting to get richer while we struggle harder and harder and fight within the other -isms for our very, very small part of the pie. "They" want us to not understand each other because it keeps us from comparing notes.

Yes, the ruling class uses racism to divide and conquer and weaken the working class. The ruling class does not use the fight against racism to divide and conquer us, yet that is what your thesis implies.

To understand racism is to better understand class struggle. To understand class struggle is to better understand racism.

The fight against racism does not deny, undermine or work against class struggle.

Good grief, why in the world does it seem so hard to understand?? There are people here wearing the fingerprints off of their fingers and giving themselves arthritis trying to act as if it's really CLASS and not race that's the problem. Your comment bears repeating over and over... it is not either/or. It is not either/or.

(Lower class individuals of any race well be hard pressed to see themselves represented fully in the media.)

That's just not the point. The issue here is RACE, not economic status. And don't tell us blacks, Asians, Natives etc. of ANY socio-economic status that we'll see ourselves represented as widely or as fully in the media as an underprivileged white person will, because we all know that it is simply not true.

I have noticed that people live where they are comfortable. My house is in a middle class neighborhood mostly white, it cost 100k, there is very little violent crime in my neighborhood, excellent public schools, easy access to shopping and the interstate. Not really close to my job but in between the 2 labs my wife works in. The houses in the predominately black sections of town, cost just as much, but the violent crime rate is extremely high and the schools are failing. The more well of people could have easily have afforded a house in my neighborhood. The only reason I've been able to find in all my years working in these communities is comfort. Poor people are comfortable around people of a similar socio-economic class. You will notice a greater mix of black and white in poor neighborhoods. Most of the black people I know are more comfortable around other black people. I have so many friends of every race, sexual orientation and socio-economic level that I'm very comfortable around everyone. I remember this one black woman, her husband was run over in front of her by 3 juveniles in a stolen car doing over 100 mph. My engine answered the call. Her husband was dead, several of the juveniles were injured. We went to the receiving of friends, met all her kids and their husbands, we stopped to see her every other shift or so for about 2 months. She was always happy to see us. Her kids didn't seem to trust us at first, 3 white firemen who stopped to see their mom every few days. They eventually realized we just saw someone in need. I tell this story only to say that for whatever reason most black people have a wariness about white people. It takes a lot of time for them to become comfortable. Just like it would us if we we're suddenly thrust into a roll reversal. If you grew up in the white suburbs and all of the sudden find yourself at a BBQ with a friend from work and look up to find yourself in a group of 10 or 12 black people you will be uncomfortable. It's human nature we don't completely understand other races, and we are uncomfortable around things we don't understand. I can't pretend to know what it's like to be black, poor (I don't mean poor I have a big screen tv, I mean really poor) or gay. Because I'm not any of those things. I agree with some of your points but it's not all about economics. Go to a big city fire department and ask to do a ride along with them in the really poor sections of town, it will open your eyes to things you wouldn't believe.

David

The day that still sticks out in my mind is the day I first went to visit a client who had a doctor's order for whirlpool baths for her leg wound three times a day. I brought out a little machine that hangs over the bathtub to create a whirlpool. I had my whole little plan to show her how to disinfect her tub and set up the machine and so on and it was shot to hell by the fact that she didn't have running water. She didn't have running water!

She was as white as I am and yet, I had never seen a poorer neighborhood. Well, later I did because I went everywhere in that city, including the Barrio and the black neighborhood (why there was only one in such a big city, I don't know). It was amazing to me that that city was so segregated and that it really appeared to be partially (though only partially) chosen. The mayor lived in the Barrio and I met folks in the black part of town who obviously had more money than me.

Race is still a major barrier for a great many people though. I think a lot of well-off & comfy liberals often underestimate how badly off working-class and poor whites are.


If you put me in a white rich country club atmosphere, I guarantee I would be as out of place and uncomfortable as any black man, moreso if that black man was Tiger Woods or P Diddy...

PS - I can't afford to live around mostly people of my own race - where I live now in El Paso is majority white, but barely - at least 40% Mexican. Before that I lived in a majority Chinese neighborhood in SF, before that a majority Cuban/Central American neighborhood in Miami, before that, a multiethnic gay/bohemian neighborhood in San Diego, before that, a majority Mexican neighborhood in San Diego.

Living in an all-white neighborhood seems to be something only a very wealthy person could afford, although I can't imagine why anyone would want to live in one. I find them as scary as so-called "bad"neighborhoods.

PS - I can't afford to live around mostly people of my own race - where I live now in El Paso is majority white, but barely - at least 40% Mexican. Before that I lived in a majority Chinese neighborhood in SF, before that a majority Cuban/Central American neighborhood in Miami, before that, a multiethnic gay/bohemian neighborhood in San Diego, before that, a majority Mexican neighborhood in San Diego.

Living in an all-white neighborhood seems to be something only a very wealthy person could afford, although I can't imagine why anyone would want to live in one. I find them as scary as so-called "bad"neighborhoods.

You don't live in suburbia (like I suspect the author does) you've lived in urban areas (El Paso possibly being an exception.) If you live in suburbia you can completely avoid living around minorities. I had the misfortune of being raised in a very wealthy white suburb of LA. My parents were school teachers though and everyday I was aware of the economic opportunities handed to my peers which I could only dream of. So perhaps I'm a bit sensitive to class desparity as a major driver for many of the things on this list.

That's not to say race isn't a factor as well, or instead of. But to solely atribute these things to race is an error.

as they are like the two wings of a bird. Riddle me this:

Q: What do they call a cardiologist in Georgia?

The need for an adjective IS the joke.

A cardiologist in Georgia could be called Yang, for instance, or a Seventh Day Adventist, or a devout Muslim, or an organizer for PETA. There is nothing in your "riddle" that asks us to speculate about the cardiologist's other characteristics.

The "joke" is meant to be this:

Q: What do you call a black cardiologist in Georgia.

A: <Racial epithet>

The point of this "joke" is to show that racial enmity is based on ethnicity, not on accomplishment, such that hard core racists will never accept African Americans no matter how successful they become. The "joke" demonstrates the bigotry of the joke teller, in other words.

You seem to have conflated this "joke" with the riddle about the surgeon who turns out to be the accident victim's mother--the latter riddle is meant to play on the listener's preconceived notions about gender roles.

It's completely unnecessary if related to a sensitized listener who makes the connexion without explanation. What hangs people up once told the answer is the failure to connect black+cardiologist even with the Georgia tip-off.

Many in the dominant culture feel a need to identify "the other" in every instance. "You didn't TELL me s/he was ______!"

Then there's the visual that seems to block out ALL aural input. Sometimes it's funny. Other times it gets tiresome in its repetition. It's quite unconscious and malice or insult is rarely the intent.

"What hangs people up once told the answer is the failure to connect black+cardiologist even with the Georgia tip-off. "

That's because there is nothing whatsoever in the question "What do you call a cardiologist in Georgia?" that asks the listener to speculate on the person's race. :think:

Furthermore, what in hell is the inherent link between "Cardiologist", "black", and "Georgia" that you posit? Really explain it to me like I'm slow... :hi:

Epithet+location=cardiologist+black.

Disclaimer: This is in no way intended to insult the many wonderful Georgians out there!

You're so busy "educating" that you aren't doing a very good job listening.

One heavily invested, for whatever reasons, in NOT comprehending the simplest connexions? The riddle makes perfect sense to those who WANT to understand rather than defend and deny.

I mean southern food is so bad for you...

has created an unconscious exclusion in your mind. Not malicious or racist, not intentional, just unconscious. Please think through it again and get back to me. :pals:

One of the first ever sitcoms I truly loved as a child featured a black female lawyer, and a black male doctor. Yes, I'm of course talking about the Cosby show. I spent my elementry school years watching this show every (Thursday I think) night it was on.

For me when you say cardiologist I don't attribute race or even gender. In fact, most people around my age probably wouldn't have that same exlcusion in their heads. The Huxtable family is forever a part of my "middle/upper class" archetype, regardless of the Huxtables being a fictional family.

Wow, just thinking of the Cosby show brought back some warm memories... I remember nearly hyperventalating from laughing when I was about 9 years old when Dr. Huxtable was hosting a party for his youngest daughter and had the fat kid sit on his knee while he did some horse riding thing with his leg. I'm sure if I saw it now as an adult it'd be sorta funny, comedy gold if you're 9 though.

:shrug:

But it wasn't a joke, it was a riddle. As I said in the PM, I'm sure people who are 5-10 years younger/older than me that didn't have the Cosby show as a main fixture in their life may have the unconscious exclusion based on race associated with the word cardiologist. I just happened to be at the right age at the right time that when I was starting to build class archetypes in my head, Bill Cosby and the Huxtables went right in with upper/middle class professionals.

professional people?

Those sorts of things are formed when you're young as you build your world view. Where I lived as a child the black population was probably less than 1%, probably closer to .01% in fact. Black people existed ONLY on TV for me. And right about the time I was starting to pick up on the fact that a middle class and professional class exist the Huxtables were the biggest middle class professional family on TV.

I now work and live in a densely populated urban area and I have minorities of all sorts and of all economic levels everywhere around me.

Race PROFOUNDLY affects how CLASS is experienced on EVERY level.
Race is the immutable factor, especially in America.

Try being black and driving your own late-model luxury car.

Try living in an upscale neighborhood and being assaulted by police while jogging on your own street. How about when they demand ID which you are not carrying in your designer sweat suit and REFUSE to allow you to show them that, yes indeed, that IS the house you OWN down the block for which you have the key.

Try doing an interview with a late-night talk show host who persists in a demeaning line of questioning about what you're going to do with all that money you've EARNED.

Try waiting for a cab in front of a fancy hotel, dressed for a business meeting and having some jerk thrust his car keys in your hand threatening you with severe consequences if he finds any scratches on his vehicle.

Try to understand the irony of the rumors of Dr.Charles Drew's death. http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/workshops/legends/CDlegends.html

Then just imagine, having endured the rigors success in white America requires, how it feels to be slapped by the "white" reality:

You're just another n*****.

Yeah, I'm guessing the huxtables are considered an outlier in the OP's mind. Check the assumptions here:



I mean seriously, how you can blame police for pulling over black people if they can't afford to make their hair "proper"?

:sarcasm:

(This is why I would never be a mod here, I'd delete that shit on sight and erect a tombstone.)

I hadn't considered nappy hair as an indicator of class. In the professional work environments I've been in black professionals have not worn picks in their hair, have not grown out massive afros, dreads, or corn rows. They haven't used hair extensions to make large elaborate hair sculptures. Those to me could be considered indicators of class, just like they would be if a white person had some of the same looks (dreads, corn rows, hair that is more than shoulder length for example.) Most of us who work as professionals try to conform to certain styles of dress, and hair grooming. I don't really see that being any different for black professionals.

I hope what I'm hearing isn't what you mean to be saying - that the only "proper" hair black women can have is shortly cropped afros or if it's any longer, it needs to be "fixed" to get rid of the natural texture?

Anything else is low class?

Also, as a white dude, you might want to refrain from describing African American hair as "nappy."


On edit: perhaps we should add this to the White Privilege list. White people don't have to listen to black people telling them their naturally straight hair is "unprofessional" if it's longer than an inch, or not chemically altered to change its texture.

But unless you give me a better word to use than nappy that's the one I'm sticking with. How dare you tell me certain words are off limits without providing me an apropriately descriptive alternative. Just because I'm white doesn't mean I'm somehow "not allowed" to use certain words just because YOU don't like them, especially without giving me an alternative you DO like.< / rant >

In regards to corn rows and afros. Just like I would consider a white guy with hair longer than a couple of inches to have a non business friendly hair cut, I would consider afros (due to their length) the same way. Corn rows might be okay, but it depends on their length. Corn rows though are equivalent to mullets in my mind. At certain lengths they may just signal an independent mind set, beyond that though they just signal bad judgement (in reference to mullets, and corn rows.)

I'm sorry if it offends you that business professionals are expected to live under certain grooming standards. White people have just as many exclusions to the way they can wear their hair in an office setting as black people do though.

If somebody is telling you you are being racially offensive, take 5 minutes and do some research before responding from a place of ignorance. Here's some reading material for you, because it seems you aren't really well educated on this subject.

Why 'nappy' is offensive (Boston Globe Article): http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/04/12/why_nappy_is_offensive/

Stupid Cultural Blunders: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net/race.html

Black Hair Dos and Dont's: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3710971&page=1

If you think I'm a racist I'll own it, and I'll own it happily. IF you set the bar so low, then so be it. Don't blame me though when I accept it, own it, and let it become a part of my identity.

Because to me, my observations are accurate. I have SEEN with my own eyes certain things. I've experienced certain things. I have come to conclusions as a result of that. While those conclusions should be challenged when they are wrong, and I well listen to your challenge of those conclusions, it is the burden of the challenger who wants to see change to provide evidence of why those observations and conclusions are innaccurate. You have not done that, instead you've simply labeled me a racist for having eyes, and ears that function, and the ability to interpret the world around me (accurately or not, I'm still waiting for your explanation of the inaccuracy though.)

If you want to continue to wallow in the filth of calling me the most reviled and villanous adjective in American society ("racist") continue to do so. Don't expect me to care though, you haven't yet provided any reasoning for why my observations and associated conclusions are false. If anything you have discounted that word to mean anybody who has ever observed anything about the black race that isn't positive.

You choose not to read those links, or not to listen to black people's voices tell you about black people's experiences, deciding that you, as a white person, know better what is or is not offensive to black people, based on your experiences as a white person.

(That would be number 11, 22, 30, and 32 on the list, for those following along.)

Your racism is embedded in the stereotypes you fall back on (if you were pulled over for driving while black, it's probably cause you were dressed in thuggish clothes or had a pick in your hair, I as a white man know that's probably what you were up to).

And your racism is embedded in your attitudes about hair. I notice you avoided any comment about women's hair after being called on it, pretending as if only black men have hair, which they must keep short because white men are expected to keep their hair short.

But the only acceptable hair choices you deemed "proper" for black women was .... what, exactly? Something that requires them to fix their naturally "wrong" hair. Or they can wear it really short, I'm guessing, so you don't have to look at too much of that "wrongness" cause it's low class to have black hair, right? And if it's any longer, it needs to be styled in a way that white people would wear, because wearing it natural "may just signal an independent mind set."

Well, we can't have that at the workplace - a bunch of uppity black women acting like they have independent minds. Don't they know they're supposed to be subservient to white men?

I am not even sure which part of that is the most racist - the idea that black women are sending political signals by wearing their hair natural, or the idea that we can't have a bunch of independently minded black women running around the office. What the hell are you afraid of? You think they're gonna stage a coup at your office if their hair is in cornrows instead of straightened? What?

Listen, I'm not willing to say that black peoples hair is somehow a bad attribute, and since there are no alternatives to the word nappy to describe their hair, I'm not willing to stop using it. SORRY. If it offends you or every black person on the planet, I suggest either OWNING the word, or providing a better alternative. Neither seems to have happened.

Black hair is not offensive, and if you're offended by the word nappy perhaps you really need to take a look at the source of that offense.

The fact that offices have grooming standards for blacks AND whites is not new, it's not racist, and it's not earth shattering breaking news. I can't wear my hair in a mohawk, down to my butt, or in various other non comformist fashions.

Since you insist on talking about it, as for women in the work place, I think most black women could wear an afro of a reasonable length and it wouldn't count agains them professionally. For example this woman looks very middle class professional to me: ">click here

I tried but was unable to find an image with a huge 1970's two foot plus radius afro. All I came up with in my google image search were those stupid halloween wigs frat boys usually use for their oh-so-original pimp halloween costume...

Take a hint from the gay community...

When gay was derogatory, they owned it and made it theirs. Then they did the same thing to Queer and Fag.

If you want to make Nappy offensive, go for it. I would suggest though that lacking an alternative adjective to refer to something that does in fact exist (tightly coiled coarse hair) that you instead OWN that word. To say that word is offensive is to say that black hair is offensive. I just can't agree with the underlieing assumption that black hair is in itself offensive.

You've got a real interesting way of not-being-a-racist. From what I can gather, your concept of it is that the majority privileged group should be able to call the minority historically oppressed groups any slurs you like, you get to determine whether or not it's offensive to those groups, and if you knowingly use an offensive term, and the result is that they are offended, why, it's THEIR fault for not embracing your historical slur.

As for your attitude about African American hair, you already made it very clear what your thoughts are - how they can and can't wear it and how if they do it wrong, it's low class - in response to ... to what? to a comment about discrimination by cops, right? Your thought is maybe that's kinda justified cause they probably weren't wearing their hair right according to CitizenRob.

If a woman with naturally straight blond hair has her hair cut so it's 10 inches long, and she wears it natural, she's professional. If a black woman has hair that's 10 inches long, she'd best treat and flat-iron her hair, anything else is just asking to be pulled over by the cops, and she sending signals to CitizenRob that she's too uppity to hire.

Yeah, we got that loud and clear.

Here's a clue about "embracing" offensive language. It isn't the place of you as an outsider to demand that the minorities you're using the offensive term towards embrace it. And it certainly isn't your place to demand it when you are using it back to back with derogatory comments related to it. (As in: "I have nothing against "nappy" hair so long as they aren't wearing picksin it, haven't grown out massive afros, and don't have dreads or corn rows. They haven't used hair extensions to make large elaborate hair sculptures. Those are all indicators of low class.")

You've set your bar so unbelievably low for calling somebody a racist. FYI: ALL races, including black people, have to conform to their employers grooming standards.



I've asked for an alternative. I've personally decided that JUST because black people find it offensive doesn't mean they get to determine if I use it. Blacks do not have authority over my vocabulary, just like whites don't have authority over black vocabulary.



Clearly discrimination by cops exists, why would I argue against that? As for where this originated, somebody posted that they thought my inclusion of "hair styles" in the list of things that differ between the lower and middle class was somehow racist. But when I considered white hair and the fact that those SAME distinctions exist for various white hair styles, I realized that my original statement was still true. I'm sorry that you are so determined to find me a racist that you aren't willing to listen to reason.

http://ybpguide.com/2007/09/02/natural-black-hair-not-glamorous/

So. We have a group of African American women who are lawyers saying your opinion about how they should wear their hair is incorrect and offensive. And clueless.

And on the other side, we have citizenrob, whiteman, saying, no trust me, I know all about black women and how they should wear their hair.

So who gets to decide? Who gets to make the rules in this society as to how black women should present themselves at work? Black women? Or white men?

If a white man tells me his opinion on black women's hair is MORE valid than the opinion of black professional women themselves, how is that not a white supremacist position for him to take?



^^^^^^^
evidence.

This is my last post on this topic before I start a DU-less weekend. If it's still around monday I might add more.



Being offended doesn't make somebody correct. It just makes them offended.



You know the golden rule don't you? Every corporation has it. "Whoever owns the gold, makes the rules"

considering far more CEOs are white men than black women. Another example of falling back on white privilege to bolster your argument.



But we aren't talking about CEO's here. We're talking about you, as a white man, discounting the experiences of professional black women and announcing that YOUR opinion on how they should style their hair is more valid than theirs.

No point in you trying to pass that off as a fault of the system (all passive voice, not your fault at all if you're taking a white supremacist position here).

Paraphrasing you here: Being offended by an afro or cornrows doesn't make you correct. It makes you something else.

I wonder who came up with those standards ;)

to perfect my craft and after having successfully navigated my way to graduation from the most prestigious music school in the world, my HAIRSTYLE renders me "low class?"



See my post #71. ;-)

Seriously. Fucked. Up.

Oh, oops, wait, I said fuck. Another, no doubt, indicator of professionalism and class distinction.

You even stated as much. Usage of the word "fuck" in a discussion doesn't do anything to keep the multiple parties expressing their thoughts freely. In fact, using the most villianous of all titles in American society "racist" doesn't help either. If you, or the other person I'm trying to have a discussion with want to label me racist for having contrary thoughts, or for voicing observations (even when incorrect!) that I have personally experienced, and for having drawn conclusions from those observations you do nothing to correct me. Instead I'm left with the same observations and conclusions. I -want- to hear how my conclusions are wrong because my conclusions, frankly, mean the world has become a dangerous place.

I didn't get it either until I thought about Georgia and how it's still so very blatantly racist and then I backtracked and figured out it must be the n- word. Thanks for reminding me of how much I hated living in the south.

I can run that riddle down in our endless discussions here in Europe (language, politics, xenophobia are recurrent topics) and it is a VERY RARE OCCURRENCE that someone fails to "get it" IMMEDIATELY. (Without the adjective.) I ask myself why that is.
:shrug:

"The word 'cardiologist' has created an unconscious exclusion in your mind."

It just wasn't valid for me.

When you trow something out like K did you take a chance that it's not going to work. Somebody else who read it may have "got it" right away. I remember in my psychology courses they used to talk about studies like these. Of course it wasn't 100% that thought the way K's riddle was meant to illicit, but it was a majority of the participants in the study.

This simply makes no sense. What if the doctor was Pakistani? What is she were Jewish? Chinese? White? Mexican-American? What in the question even invites you to guess at race?

Karenina is simply confusing two different riddles:

The first one is:

What do you call a black cardiologist in Georgia.

The second is:

The surgeon was his MOTHER!

What's funny is that I distinctly remember the second one from The Cosby show haha. (funny because that has been part of this discussion.) Mrs. Huxtable ask Dr. Huxtable that riddle and he got it wrong and she made him eat crow for it.

The kids (including Rudy's male friend, IIRC) formed the "Meanie club" or something like that.

Their chant:



:rofl:

The Cosby Show, Cheers, man the late 80's early 90's were a good time for the sitcom.

reference for professional people of colour, a TV SERIES! :rofl:

I don't know any professional people of color other than the Huxtables?

Does my wife count? How about the class I attend that is taught by an (extremely eminent) African American judge? Sometimes when we're speaking, I tell the judge, "Nope. That's not how the Cos' would do it!" Then we laugh, and laugh...

You really demonstrate your own prejudices when you start dictating to people who they know and how they feel...

"How long until Bill Cosby gets brought up?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=258&topic_id=4640#4646

But hey, no worries. I bet that judge really appreciates when you make that same joke over and over. I don't think African Americans ever get tired of their lives being compared to the cosby show, do you?

:wtf:

Moreover, what joke are you talking about? I'm not much of a joke teller, so I can't imagine to what your refer.:shrug:

The judge and I speak about the law, btw. The Cosby show simply has never come up. :eyes:

Dummheit ist leider für immer und ewig.

Like I said: you need to examine your own bigotry, stereotypes, and assumptions before "educating" anybody else.

I don't know any "professionals of color" besides the Huxtables? What an asinine assumption! :wtf:

El Paso is small enough that the suburbs don't sprawl out forever yet, and houses within the developments are each build by different builders in many cases so there is not the feeling of vast rows of identical homes. (yet)

But yeah, I find suburbs and many of the people who live there very scary, and feel much more at home in cities, and I like neighborhoods that are very ethnically mixed. I feel like when one ethnic group really dominates, that's when that group starts to feel that it can push the others around.

Anyway, I appreciate your post because I really do think white poor and working people do get the short shrift around here a lot of the time, but by the same token, I would never try and diminish what minority people have to put up with in this country either.

much more than sex, race, religion (except for atheism at any rate), or any other personal characteristic.


As capitalism has metastasized and become less regulated, class differences have become even more pronounced, deeper and more profound.

If you are poor (or increasingly even "just" working-class) in this country, you are a third-rate citizen (or may even be disenfranchised altogether).

Being a minority does not necessarily mean any of these life limiting things.

"White middle and upper class individuals have about as much desire to spend time with poor whites as they do poor blacks."

UhHUH. That's not the Democratic Party I'm in, where we all sort of lump in together at meetings or at the fish fry. Because, dammit, we're Democrats!

I almost wrote a item by item response to the list elsewhere, but decided not to. Thank you for taking time to do this. Of course racism exists. So does classism, sexism, and a bunch of other "isms" and anyone who has a need to compare them (eg- "my ism is worse than your ism!") is missing the fact that one of the basis of isms is me vs you and we need to not just tolerate but actively accept and seek out differences as we are all different.

So thanks.

That list does have a lot on it that isn't accurate, and several things that are. But it's hardly a real refutation of the suggestion that Whites, poor and wealthy, have benefits because of our races oppression of Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans and others. We are the beneficiaries of our ancestors decisions, and in many cases those decisions were cruel and racist. But they've constructed a society in which being White is a leg up on life.

That's unpleasant to say the least. And it's worse to consider that I get that leg up whether or not I choose to be cruel or racist myself; I can act entirely nobly as far as race goes, and still get the benefit of what our ancestors have done.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

has depressing tales of unfair harassment by the police. Of being treated with suspicion in situations that you probably take being able to go unharrassed for granted . For instance, a friend of mine told me how one evening when he was taking a walk, he bent over to pull up his socks and a group of Caucasian college kids saw him and ran away screaming 'he has a gun'!?! One of many sad stories, unfortunately.

That has *got* to have an accumulative effect on people's self esteem and sense of how they fit into society. And it's a tragedy.

I think the problem is using the word 'privilege'. It implies that the things that every citizen should have in terms of respect and opportunity is something extra that could be taken away to even things out. And of course this is threatening to people, especially when they're struggling to get by and don't feel particularly 'privileged'.

We need to insist on fair treatment and equal opportunities for EVERYONE. And we have a long way to go in this.

I have a similar story to yours. A coworker/friend of mine was out for a walk during his lunch break. He is a man working a white collar engineering job at one of the largest corporations on the planet. He's wearing typical white collar clothing for the tech industry, khaki's and a button up shirt.

Well this time as he's walking down one of the nearby country side roads in Northern California and a truck full of white 20 somethings drives past and yells "NIGGER!" out the window at him.

This was about 5 years ago now, but if I recall correctly he no longer took that small road, he instead stuck the the main thoroughfares in the town.

address the fact that the country is close to 70% white and only 12.5% black. It also nitpicks at some things that aren't true while missing the big ones. A black man has a much harder time in court than a white one, but both have a shitty chance if they are poor.

In situations where I have been the only white person in the room, I have come to sympathize with minorities and their anxieties living in a society where they are outnumbered. Will I ever truly understand it? No, because if I choose I can pretty easily get out of situations where I am not in the majority.

Social class

Main article: Social class in the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States

While social classes in the US lack distinct boundaries and may overlap,
they constitute the perhaps most important demographical groups.

The following table provides a summarization of currently prominent
academic theories on the societal stratification of American society:

See graph-- Social class
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

Capitalist class (1%)

Upper middle class1 (15%)

Lower middle class (30%)
Working class (30%)
Working poor (13%)

Underclass (12%)

find out what percentage of the lower class or poor are from what race? I would like to see some information on poor and lower class dissected into races so we can see if it is truly something of class or of race having an affect on class, which would then revert back to it being a race issue. You obviously have put some time into this and I would like to see more of a breakdown if you have anything else from your research.

but even this doesn't cover it.

that side of it. I think that too many people cant blatantly see it so they feel it doesn't exist or its almost all gone. I cant count how many times, in the middle of the day, people everywhere, I hear the car doors lock as I walk near a car. Even at crosswalks, people sitting at lights, I guess I look like a carjacker? I have seen some posts say its just a reaction to any guy but NONE of my white friends have ever shared their story of it happening to them when we talk about stuff like that.Its not funny but I laugh and smile because I want the people to realize that my skin tone doesn't tell them a damn thing about who I am. Thats just ONE of my pet peeves, I don't even want to go into the things that actually piss me off; police!

I know so many pulled over simply because of their skin tone.

this whole thread is appallingly ignorant.

Then they may have that experience.

:shrug:

(this whole thread is appallingly ignorant.)

And so knee-jerk and defensive too. But I guess it's good to get things like this out in the open.

I stopped thinking it was a coincidence when half of the black lawyers and judges I knew said that one of the primary reasons they went to law school was to know their legal rights in the face of police harassment and job discrimination a very long time ago.

That's 12.5% of the population, but the working poor and under class are nearly 30% of the population. If you include the working class that is closer to 70% of the total population. In both the 30% case and the 70% the black population is a minority of the total (if every single black person were poor, which as we know is not the case.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States">wikipedia article on Social Class



census data based on race
In this link above I just eyeballed the data but the distributions looked similar, they seemed to peak at about the same income level 30-40k range and then both dwindle at about the same rate until you get to 100+k in which both populations see significant spikes before settling down again.

MLK became even more dangerous when he started talking about poor people.

There's no doubt class plays a huge role and has for a while now, that role is growing. That does NOT mean though that we've got an either/or situation here and it can't help to keep oversimplifying it.

I wrote a response in another thread about a related subject trying to explain why the black community is pissed, I'll just link it here rather than repeat it. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5232581&mesg_id=5238776

Long as it is that does just brush over the surface of the situation and lists a couple of examples from among many I could go over if anyone is interested. On top of the safe school zones and 100:1 sentencing disparity we could add high crime traffic areas, assumptions made about people based on looks and born out by traffic stop and other data, the way conspiracy laws can drag an innocent down with a more guilty friend, the challenges of fighting charges from poverty, and so on.

Although not all of it is directly "race" related, such as fighting charges from a perspective of poverty, race does come into the issue much more clearly when we add the safe school zone and other issues into it so gives them a greater chance to be prosecuted in the first place. We don't target the race with our laws, just things that strongly apply to race such as living conditions, crowded or not, urban or not, and so on. In the end it does add up to the same effect and we've had plenty of time now to notice it. Maybe we should fix it now.

and look around and see who is really holding them back.

Because it sure ain't middle class, working class or poor whites.

NO.

Those responsible for the Class War are rich upper class elites. :grr:

constantly put out the rich upper class elites... you know the "scare tactics" of the mainstream media:

be afraid of mexicans coming to steal your jobs.
be afraid of arab men on planes.
be afraid of black men stealing your wallets and your women.
be afraid of your fellow poor americans, because while you're nervously watching them, the rich are stealing our democracy.

and that's why we still have have waaaay TOO MANY republicans being elected to office to stifle the middle/working/poor classes of ALL races.

AMERICA, STOP VOTING REPUBLICAN!!!
(unless you're greedy, racist, or just plain stoooopid)

with those who couldn't give a shit about them, vote regularly against their OWN INTEREST out of fear that "the other" may also benefit because "AT LEAST WE'RE WHITE?" Hmmm? :freak:

There are many vectors that make people more or less privileged due to biases in society. Some people get angry when these vectors are pointed out because they feel that they are being attacked when they fit into the "more privileged" category. I don't think this is true; I think these realities must be discussed. There are so many of these vectors that most of us wind up falling into the "less privileged" category along some vectors and the "more privileged" category along others.

I tried to come up with a statement that would take this into consideration, and maybe act as the base for some possibly less cutthroat discussion. The general idea was that these restrictive roles that society imposes are bad for everyone, and that all people are therefore deserving of sympathy if they are willing to act against their own more-privileged status. The thread never really went anywhere, but it was a poll, and the majority of people voted that they agreed.

Each feeds off the other, creating a feedback loop.

White privilege = those things that are easier for you when compared to someone just like you in other ways (wealth, education, etc.) - where the only difference is race. A white person without wealth has an easier time of it than a black person without wealth.

Wealth (or class) privilege = those things that are easier for you when compared to someone just like you in other ways (race, etc.) - where the only difference is wealth. A wealthy person of any given race has an easier time than a person who is not wealthy of the same race.

Obviously some people have one kind of privilege and not the other. But the list isn't intended to differentiate between ALL white people and only wealthy black people. Assume with any given example that you are comparing the experience of two people who have identical circumstances except for race. When making that comparison, there will be a difference.

weren't historically and currently bound up with white supremacy....

I suspect, although I may be wrong, that most middle and upper class black people who have adopted upper and middle class lifestyles, etiquette, and behaviors, rarely feel out of place

You're wrong.

Did the poor Irish by law, have to ride the back of the bus 45 years ago? Were they getting lynched? I believe JFK was president in 1960, and a black or Latino or female president was unthinkable. You can divide and pick all the history you want but racism is a deadly factor in a lot of economics.

In fact, look at it this way. Racism is/was necessary in how our current capitalist system developed and maintains itself.

Talk to an upper middle class person of color before you start telling them how they feel. Anecdotally, I can think of two black friends off the top of my head who moved to an upscale white neighborhood and were not comfortable. I can think of one Latino nurse educator who has experienced uncomfortable experiences as well. And I have a essay written by a Native American women who talks of her experiences in academia. Her background was ignored, her input dismissed.

You should see some of the 19th and early 20th century cartoons depicting the irish as apes. I have no doubt more than a few were lynched.

check this out Wiki page out it's on Anti-Irish racism.

Yeah, but I ain't got an hour to read it.

is shallow in the extreme. Sorry to tell you this, but your denial of these things makes you either cluless or racist, take your pick.

I suggest reading post 86.

Fine, accuse me of being a racist. Go for it. You're wrong though. And I'd appreciate if you kept your accusations threaded so that people reading it can make up their own minds of who the real racist is. At this point I think it's you. I suggest those reading this should check out the posts before and after #86 to get proper context.

rather than responding when and where you allow me to post.

But I do encourage others to check out the posts before and after 86, by all means. And I hope people who are confused will do further reading in the links I provided above.

And I hope they read them skeptically and do their own personal analysis of the information provided in them. As we are all taught in elementry school, don't always believe what you read.

When you delve into name calling (racist) I feel that you are telling me to "shut up" despite the fact that I've been trying to have an open discussion. If you don't want white people to discuss race issues honestly from their perspective don't be surprised when they aren't very supportive when *you* say there is a problem that *you* need adressed.

I would really like to continue discussing this with you. I know DU isn't much for full fledged conversations that extend past the Subject line, but in the spirit of Obama's speech, I am in fact trying to honestly and openly discuss these things from my own perspective. If what I'm saying is offensive to you, I'm glad you tell me, and I hope you suggest alternative view points, conclusions, or even alternative phrasing.

Please refer to your OP, regarding that point: "Good god you're a racist."

Are you trying to shut people up in your OP or have an "open discussion"?

Racist AND hypocrite.

here are a few of the 'better' ones. Despite the essential wrongness of most of your post, I don't see the kind of deliberate obtuseness that most racism deniers display, so I'm gonna go with "clueless" over "racist". What I don't get is that, in one of your posts you admit that white privilege exists, and yet you spent a whole hour in your OP attempting to deny these essential aspects of it.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

This is a false claim that blacks do not have similar options to exist in a primarily black world. Minorities have neighborhoods, groups, organizations, clubs, restaurants, etc... that for the most part are minority owned, operated, and patronized by said minority.

You're right in part that blacks have some options for avoiding the company of white people if they want, but it only goes so far. Black-owned business *in* majority black areas would rarely include the entire spectrum of business that people need to patronize in order to live their lives normally. Think about the every-day visit to the medical center, the supermarket, the big-box store, the state or federal government office. In most places (not all places), whites can go to such places of business and reliably feel that they will be comfortably in the majority. And if they fear they might have to deal with too many black people in one area, they can always drive to another area where they *know* they won't have to. Black people don't have that option. So your claim that #1 is "false" is false.


2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

This is a social economic class thing. White middle and upper class individuals have about as much desire to spend time with poor whites as they do poor blacks.

Sorry, you're dismissing race as a factor here, which is tantamount to denying that racism exists. "This" is not solely a socioeconomic thing. There is a large subset of the white population that wishes not to be in the company of black people no matter what they look like or what their socioeconomioc status is. Race is, you see, an independent factor most, if not all, of the time.


3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

That's quite a statement to say that middle class black people can't find the same level of comfort if they want to move. Or is this statement reliant on the false assumption that all blacks are poor and have to live in run down parts of a town?

Never heard of housing discrimination, I see. Does that answer your question? It's not just money (again, your desire to see this as a matter purely of economics fails you).


5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

Lower class white individuals who dress in thug wear, look like drug addicts, can't afford proper hair supplies or make up, also have this problem. Perhaps upper and middle class black individuals do to, but then again, I'm white and solidly upper middle class, and I've been followed around a store and harassed by security. God only knows what I did to make them suspicious...

How do you know lower class whites who dress in thug wear (and therefore look like drug addicts??) and who have bad hair and/or makeup "have this problem"? Have you talked to any about it? Because I can assure you from personal experience that middle class black people with nice clothes and hair DO have this problem.


7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

Lower class whites are rarely told that they are the ones who fought the battles for the revolutionary war, and the civil war, thereby making the real difference. Everything in our history books are centered on the decision makers at the top, who, in our country's history, happened to have been white and very very wealthy.

Yawn. The point is, lower class whites are still white and they still see only the contribution of white people to the history of this nation (except maybe during February, whoopdedoo).


18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

FALSE. Once again, what the fuck is this? Poor people of any race has this problem.

What the fuck is this? This is you not fucking GETTING it. People of color are judged routinely on the basis of their skin color and nothing else. Your failure to understand this most fundamental aspect of this issue tells me where your mind is.


19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

FALSE. If you are educated on the subject you are speaking on, people who have invited you to speak are interested in that subject, not your race.

Oh god. Two fucking words: Barack Obama.


20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

I've been told this as a white person.

If someone told you this (and I doubt it), then they were joking/being ironic. No one seriously tells a white person that he or she is a credit to his or her race...it just. doesn't. happen.


21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

I've been asked this question as a white person.

Again, I call bullshit. Someone was having a joke on you.


22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

Maybe that's because where you live you're in a solid majority. Where I live here in the US the Chinese are actually the majority and while I don't know Mandarin, I do know quite about Chinese cultural norms from living in such proximity.

And you can no doubt drive five miles to escape the slightest need to use or retain whatever alleged knowledge you have about Chinese cultural norms. People of color, being the minority overall, don't have that, er, privilege.


23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

ANY person in ANY race or social economic group would have this problem. Hell, I think just posting this makes you a cultural outsider BECAUSE YOU the poster (not the original author) lack critical thinking skills to question some of the points made here. No you just cut and paste them as your own thoughts, and to me that makes you a complete cultural outsider because you've turned your brain off.

Way to address the issue effectively, good one.


25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

POOR people driving have the same problem. Since there is no "race" bubble on IRS tax forms I have my doubts about the second part.

I too have doubts about the IRS part, but black people get pulled over far more often than white people; it's not hard to find statistics on that. I doubt you have any statistics about poor people driving; if you do, please cite.


27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

Are you going to KKK rallies? I bet you fit right in. Try a black panther rally next time if you want to try wearing the other shoe. FALSE.

As someone else in this thread pointed out, YOU'RE WHITE, and you're never going to be black or any other ethnicity, so you don't understand how this works. You don't have a clue. Denying shit out of hand is not an argument.


28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

WOAH!? You actually hold this in your head as a truism? Good god you're a racist. FALSE.

My head hurts. This is too stupid to even address.


30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

FALSE. If you are white and declare either way you are likely to be labeled a racist and completely lacking credibility as a result. As a white person we are very rarely permitted to discuss race issues honestly without being thought of negatively by others.

This may be your experience, and I'm not surprised, given how clueless you are about race issues.


31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

Most people of any race don't pay attention to the developments of minority groups they don't belong to. FALSE.

Again, your personal experience, evidently. Says a lot about you.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

This is rather vague, but could true.

It's general, not vague. So if this *could* be true, how come #31 is so energetically false?


34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

FALSE. When I discuss racism I offend people. I'm sure many of you reading this are DEEPLY offended by what I have said. Regardless of the accuracy of what I've written. I am of course willing to listen to opossing view points, but don't expect me to stop using my brain.

:rofl:


35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

TRUE. This is one of the major pitfalls of affirmative action.

Um, ok. You're blaming affirmative action for the fact that white people make racist assumptions about people of color being hired by an affirmative action employer? This is one of the major pitfalls of white racism, not of affirmative action.


36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

I'll give you day, and possibly week, but not months or years. Half True.

Soooo, racism is a valid concept day-to-day, but it has no power to affect peoples' lives over periods of months or years? Will you please listen to what you're saying for a second?


38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

We have a black man running for President. And while there is a question of whether or not certain elements of our society would vote for him, the data from primaries isn't yet showing people won't.

If you actually think the example of a single person is an answer to this issue, then you should stop posting on this topic right away.


40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

TRUE. I'm going to give you this one because there are certainly places in this country where I'm sure minorities people are hassled.

Thanks for throwing us a bone, dude. :eyes:

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

TRUE.

Oh so you're admiting the truth of the matter that black people statistically don't get as good quality health care as white people. Well, thanks.


43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

Jesus christ your workplace is TOXIC. FALSE.

This is, again, a case of being white and simply not knowing how you wouild be perceived if you weren't white. It has nothing to do with anyone's workplace, per se, it has to do with perceptions of race, and racism. I suspect you'll admit that there are lots of white people who won't accept a black person as their leader (i.e., Barack Obama? Duh?).


47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

TRUE.

How is it you can accept the truth of some of these issues, the easy obvious ones, but you can't bring yourself to believe the slightly more subtle ones?


50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

I can't speak to an individuals level of feeling welcomed or normal. I suspect, although I may be wrong, that most middle and upper class black people who have adopted upper and middle class lifestyles, etiquette, and behaviors, rarely feel out of place. However those individuals of any race who are poor, do not have the education on etiquette and proper middle class/upper class socialization would probably feel out of place. FALSE.

LOL, it's false because you "suspect" it's false. Wow.

I agree with some but not all of your points. I really appreciate the time you took to respond, and I read your response in it's entirety. At this point I think it's time to let this thread die off so I'm going to refrain from posting in it. I hope you have a wonderful weekend, and thank you again for your thoughts.

That said, though, I don't think that any analysis of racial dynamics in a society can ignore class, nor can an analysis of class dynamics ignore race, nor can either of these factors be separated from any number of others.

...even exceptions to race-based segregation.

And racism is a subset of class war. It's a divide and conquer concept utilized by the capitalist class and it's lap dogs every chance they get.

Of course in America Black folks carry a huge disproportionate burden due to the class system and class warfare which is always in play.

Only one side is playing and the rest of us fight with each other. That should stop.

On edit: No such thing as Race anyway. It's a a myth. Its another construct to divide people.

you're essentially arguing that there exists some color-blind status quo in US culture. I cannot condense 5 years of studying social trends, political/ethnic/gender/etc. movements, hierarchies of Western power embedded in social institutions and on and on but I can tell you that the STATUS QUO to which you are so vehemently trying to defend as CLASS CONSCIOUSNESS is BASED UPON the great myth of cultural assimilation.

This lie has been told to immigrants since the dawn of the USA as something else than belonging to Native Americans. I don't care how many little lists you write, the bottom line is the historical shaping of the middle-class status quo is white. And Christian. And Native born. Is it class based? Sure, but "class" is an extremely complex organism that is INTENTIONALLY made to appear a simple matter of the has and teh has-nots.

Historical documents illuminate how our culture treated "Us" vs. "Them" throughout times.

At some points in time, the Us/Them was Christian/blasphemer. This is probably the oldest distinction of status quo; Salem Witch Trials and colonists' entrenched fear/awe of Native Americans are indicative of this. Irish Catholics and their being labeled as "White Niggers" is a later expression of this, during a formative period where African Americans were still enslaved, later ghettoized, and even later forced to live under Jim Crow laws.

Leading up the the Civil Rights Era, the status quo distinction shifted from Christian/blasphemer to some sort of Pure American/Dirty Ethnic as several generations of European Americans were born and gained social influence. During this period Irish Americans were more easily incorporated into "Us" for a multitude of reasons, some being: they largely had no "ethnic accents" as more were native-born, boasted the financial success of famous Irish Americans (Henry Ford springs to mind here), and the Catholic Church gained more mainstream acceptance.

Note: there were always "invisible ethnicities" such as the large number of Chinese immigrants during this period; their contribution to our history cannot be underestimated merely because there were no large-scale movements agitated for their full rights and recognition. This is an aside but very fascinating to study as a topic of "the Asian as the Perfect Assimilator" myth. I would put gays into the "invisible ethnic" category until the 1980's for mere convenience; however I think that the historical experience and treatment of homosexuality is best understood as a "deviant" behavior in terms of how the religious powers treated them. Looking at historical documents it's difficult to decipher teh legal prescription for how gays were to be dealt with; there were most often larger categories of "sexual" or "moral" deviance which often included adultery. These distictions continued up until the influence of evolutionary theory and its unfortunate application to human social systems. Gays were discrimated against as abhorrations of nature. Blacks and other ethnics were part of nature, sure, but more lowly along the evolutionary chain.

During the 1980's gays gained momentum by forming a political movement for visibility and rights. In that regards, gays relation to status quo is similar to African Americans' treatment under Jim Crow laws. However, i would not say IDENTICAl at ALL because of the entrenched religious bias (ie, gays have it worse than Civil Rights era blacks) and issues of visibility/assimilation (gays hypothetically have it easier if they choose to "act straight". In any case, very complex and beyond the scope and point of this post).

Wow I'm getting tired and I haven't even touched upon gender issues (women/transgender etc).

The Pure American/Dirty Ethnic status quo can easily be translated as for White/Black-NonWhite, especially during teh Civil Rights Era up to the 1980's, as many non-Whites were no longer first generation but native-born.

What is the Us/Them narrative of today? I would argue it's a subtle tweaking of Pure American/Dirty Ethnic. You no longer HAVE to have white skin (but it helps), you no longer HAVE to be straight (but it helps), you no longer HAVE to be Christian (but it helps), you no longer HAVE to be male (but it helps), you no longer HAVE to hide your ethnic roots (as long as they are adequately romanticized, being "ethnic" is fine; however heaven forbid you admit that your parents were Communist party leaders!). Lordy help you if you hit the misfortune jackpot and happen to me more than one of the preceding, since the math of privilege and discrimination is multiplicative.

So where does wealth and class fit into this? Class is not equal to the amount of money one has, as evidenced by the narrative of "noveau riche" that has existed since the Industrial Revolution. Wealth is not the great equalizer, although the rampant popularity of success stories furthers teh myth that the only essential thing that separates us from each other is whether or not we can afford the American Dream. If we cannot, we are dangerous flaws in a system that promises opportunity to everyone. So how is class to be understood? Certainly it is tied inextricably with wealth, but it is better understood as how close one is to attaining identity with the "Us". American notions of "Us"/"Them" have not always treated wealth kindly; as shitty as 18th C and early 19th C powers that be treated everyone else, poverty was treated more as noble misfortune and great accumulation of wealth was seen as anti-Christian glutton unless much of it was spent right back to the Church for charity. Wealth in and of iteself was NOT an original virtue.

I would argue, and others are free to agree or disagree, that any metanarrative of Us/Them in American culture throughout times since the Industrial Revolution has this in common: the "they" might change (based on religion, skin color, or degree of assimilation) but the "Us" seems to be frustratingly tenacious: Native born American of (preferably Western) European heritage, affluent, educated, Protestant, straght. I don't put "male" here because the status quo of privilege NEEDS women, but within this system they are intrinsically inferior and unable to fully achieve parity because they are not "them" they are the lesser "us", a concept tracing back to the image of Eve made from Adam's rib. So it is complex and difficult issue to decipher whether or not a white woman or a black man can be considered "more fucked over" and I think it ignores the more important issue. If the "theys" of this world are to gain any parity, it's most important to look at what makes up the status quo which is entrenched in every single institution and indocrinated the moment the umbilical cord is cut.

So to wrap up my opening points: this status quo metanarrative of assimilation is not to be essentialized as based on race/class/gender/sexual orientation/etc but it is folly to assume that it is color-blind; it SEES ALL and discriminates accordingly.