Are women, in part, to blame for sexism?

:) Since I know that this post is going to get me flamed out the ass, but still am interested in the responses, let me explain.

I myself am a guy who never in his youth was a "jock" or a "pimp" or whatever equivalent of that a particular culture has. And more then once when I was growing up have I been told I was "too nice" or "too good of a friend" to be considered dating material.

I come to wonder: Is part of the rampant sexism in the world connected to the fact that for some reason many women, without being put under any particular pressure, seem to give the most attention to a certain type of man, even if these men are abusive? Or, could abusive, sexist guys even exist, if there weren't always plenty of women around that give "support" to this type of guy? Hell, Adolf Hitler received piles of love letters every day, no one was ever forced to write them, and in China it was long known that carrying the child of the great chairman promised a prosporous life.

Most of dating advice for men that I have seen revolves around the idea of becoming "that guy that doesn't call back", and seems to suggest that if you are a man that is interested in sexual adventure (which I assume, most men are) you almost have to be slightly mentally abusive in a certain way to achieve that.

Now I know that in part evolution biology explains this. In packs of chimpanzees, our closest relatives, the alpha males always father the most children. But I think, if in human society equality of genders should be achieved, the non-alpha males need to get much more attention :) In a way I was very happy about the popularity of the Harry Potter series, since it seemed to suggest that the quiet, smart, nerdy types can be heroes too.

Now girls, before you flame me, be honest: Have or have you not, ever been attracted to the best football player, the bodybuilder or, if you are the hippie type, the guy with the longest hair who was the best guitar player (every subculture has its alpha-male)? :)

On a broader note: Could it be that our society is way too obsessed with concepts of "success" and "failure"?

many women contribute to sexism

thats a very limited view on sexism.

yes i think women contribute to sexism but not in the way you see it.

It seems you only view women as potential partners. You have to ask how sexism affects your mother, sister, aunt, daughter, grandmother, etc.

:hi:

I'm always skeptical of the idea that women (note to OP: we ARE talking about women here, yes? Not "girls") don't like the nice guys is one put forward by men who are certain they are wonderful - it's just the women who don't see that.

If you dig deeper you often find that they are only interested in a certain type of woman, as well. Sometimes it comes down to a bad mix of what each is looking for.

Personally, I was never interested in the macho jock types. I was looking for a person, first and foremost - someone with intelligence and humor who valued the same things in me.

mr. hot guy.

"There are no nice women out there looking for a guy like me!"

"How about XXX?"

"Oh, man, she's a dog!"

go for the visual -- and wonder why hotties don't go for their own plain selves.

:spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray:

LOLOLLLLL I know I've come down on you hard before on these boards, but this post is a piece of solid gold truth! :rofl: :wave:

respects me, is good to me.

the other, i dont get.

They are NOT the same thing.

Al Gore is an alpha male. John Kerry is an alpha male. Barack Obama is an alpha male. They are all strong, exude power, and RESPECT women.

George Bush is an alpha asshole. He puts on a flight suit with a stuffed crotch and talks shit with his father about "pussy."

If you cannot see the difference, I pity you.

And yeah, you'd better don that flame suit. This entire post reads like you're taking the fact that you've had poor luck with women and extrapolating that to mean that women go for douchebags. If that's how you see women, as pathetic, brainless self-loathers who like to be abused, it's no wonder you have trouble. Women who go to abusers are just as weak and pathetic as the abusers themselves. Neither group is representative of the sex as a whole.

more a man than any of these manly men.... and he isnt that.

you are right on

oh.... dont you hate that joke of bushies. 2004 i told all my female friends that joke he made to turn them off voting for him. i live in texas in the religious belt

:)

There IS a segment of women who are attracted to macho jerks that demean them, talk crap about them with their guy friends, mindf--k them into giving them sex, and yes, sometimes physically abuse them. That's the type of guy like the mythical one in the frat boy stories who has phone sex with his girlfriend, while reading Penthouse, while a woman he picked up that night is giving him a BJ. For the most part it is a frat boy wank fantasy that tells far more about THEIR minds than about the female sex, but I'm sure such people do exist, and the women who are attracted to it are not worth being with because they have no self-respect.

This is going to sound harsh, and it is, but my advice to "nice guys" is always the same: Stop patting yourself on the back about how "nice" you are and how unfair it is that women, in your mind, go for jerks instead. It's not "nice" at all; it's ego-stroking, and most people can sense it a mile off.

Re They are NOT the same thing.

Al Gore is an alpha male. John Kerry is an alpha male. Barack Obama is an alpha male. They are all strong, exude power, and RESPECT women.

George Bush is an alpha asshole. He puts on a flight suit with a stuffed crotch and talks shit with his father about "pussy."

If you cannot see the difference, I pity you.

But there's also a crossover category, i.e. alpha males who are NOT primarily assholes, but who still have a very pronouced asshole streak to their natures. Bob Dylan is the first example that comes mind. The difference is that unlike Bush, the assholery seems to be driven more by moodiness and flakiness than by cruelty or lust for power. In other words, it's more like accidental than deliberate assholery. They don't have a basic contempt for women and may even idealize them...BUT that doesn't stop them from hurting women. They are always so surprised when they do, though, because they REALLY didn't mean it! But that never seems to stop them from doing it again.

These men are usually very attractive to women, who aren't so much attracted *BY* the assholery as willing to put up with it--at least for a while. That's because they ALSO have tremendous charisma and vitality, which is what puts them in the alpha category.

And YES...I have the scars to attest to everything I'm saying. Fortunately, they are mostly old scars.

But I used the more gentile word "cad", which I must confess, if find just as descriptive. We don't words like "cad" as often as we should. :)

And of course, some men are assholes, some are shitheels (a nicely colorful and evocative word) and some men are shitheel assholes.

...narcissists and bullies ~ to their own detriment. Some women also tend not to believe or support another woman over an attractive but abusive man, and will even see the other woman as competition.

As a woman who has always chosen good men, I don't get it.

everything. OK OK just kidding. I glad my girlfriend didn't see this or she'd make me beg.

and do in some cases enforce that on other women.

the assholes.

did it ever occur to you that woman 'chose' those abusive men because they've been told their whole lives they are worthless and 'less than' ??

my husband is an 'alpha male' by most standards. he's a natural leader and folks look up to him but he has never been abusive to me in any way. in fact, when there is a disagreement about something he almost always defers to my judgment.

being an alpha male doesn't make you an asshole. assholes are cowards, not leaders.

Explaining to women why they should be falling for you instead of guys who treat them like shit never works. Just be patient and wait a few years until they grow out of it. In the mean time, date older women who have grown out of it already.

Let me guess, the hot babes that are your birthright (because while your looks should be considered irrelevant, hers are of paramount importance) prefer guys who aren't passive-aggressive shallow whiners with an overblown sense of entitlement.

Wah. :eyes:

Could it be that you are way too concerned with getting laid for your efforts than for being nice just for the sake of it?

Yeah, that must be it. :)

sexism which literally causes the death of women, can be attributed to women not have sex with mr. nice guy.

gah!

There were pundits who were blaming the VA Tech shootings on women not sleeping with nerdy guys like the shooter.

I kid you not.

if women just slept with mr. nice guy?

...


Okay, at risk of seeming full of myself, I really think I should get a DUzy for that! :P

:rofl:

:D

in my own armchair sociobiological moments, that men who make this claim about women liking "bad boys, not "nice" men" ARE rather fixated on the physical.

I love my wife and she is my best friend. I sometimes annoy her, she sometimes annoys me. But I can't think of anyone I would rather hang out with. It's what happens AFTER the orgasm that is important. If one, or both of you immediately have better things to do than talk of cuddle, there is no relationship of merit.

Plus embracing the madonna/whore dichotomy to a disturbing degree. Most of them are relatively harmless, though annoying, but there are a few who morph into the kind of raging misogynists who buy themselves wives from 3rd world countries and things like that.

Self-described "nice guys" make me wary. Because often it ends up being a whine (as is the OP) about how women don't like "nice guys" like them. Instead of being a "nice guy", maybe just be a good man.

why some of the nicest guys I knew (and had HUGE crushes on) dated the nastiest women! There was one guy in particular I'm thinking about ... what a sweetheart. I so wanted him to notice me (he wasn't the most gorgeous guy by any means - a bit of a geek, in fact, like my husband). He was thoughtful and considerate and sweet and had a great sense of humor (probably still is all of those things) and he's probably one of the few guys other than my husband who I would say I truly loved (not just was in love with). He finally did notice me and then dumped me for being too nice to him (yes, he pretty much told me that)! Last I heard (and this was 7 years ago) he was living with someone who everyone knew was cheating on him, "made" him drop out of school (I totally supported his educational aspirations which was one of the things he said he really appreciated about me), and generally treated him like crap.

My point is that this - both men and women can be jerks in relationships, both nice guys and nice gals feel overlooked, both nice guys and nice gals are attracted to nice members of the group they find sexually attractive. Sexism is far more than how people are treated in dating relationships.

:) Of course it works the other way around too. Thats the point.

what you mean by thats the point. Do you mean that nice guys going for nasty women is partially to blame for sexism? Could you clarify?

I am rather intrigued that instead of pointing out the obvious fact, that many guys seem to go for abusive women too and ignore the nice ones, I get called a whiner, passive aggressive and Mr.Nice guy with a sense of entitlement :)

Of course you are completely right and the argument works both ways. Hence my sidenote: I think our society is too obsessed with "image" or concepts of "success" or "failure" or whatever.

A seemingly "weak" person who has obvious flaws does not get much respect, but rather gets trampled on, as the people who have flamed me in this thread have clearly demonstrated :)

Not applicable.

If your point is that some women are attracted to jerks, and that some men are attracted to jerks, then I fail to see how this relates to your query whether women are partially responsible for sexism.

:whereistheheadshakingsmiliewhenIwantone?:

Someone who is attracted to assholey, abusive behavior and acts on it is dysfunctional. That's not a moral judgment; it just is. They have issues.

And the abusive person who accepts a dysfunctional person in a relationship also has issues. Their issue is that they can't handle a relationship of mutual respect.

Guess what? I don't get laid either. And I know perfectly well why that is -- it's because I am a bitch, and yes I own the word. But I know not to accept a self-loathing person who liked mind games. If I were in a relationship, I'd have to respect the other person for it to work out, and I couldn't respect anyone who let me be ugly to them.

while valid, has nothing to do with sexism.

Gay men go for both abusive and non-abusive men. Lesbian women go for both abusive and non-abusive women.

The reason you are being flamed is not because a seemingly "weak" person does not get much respect but because you are extrapolating from what is a predominantly (but not exclusively) bi-gendered relationship to a systemic view of one gender or the other that cuts across much, much more than just romantic relationships.

I don't think most of the posters are arguing with your suggestion that both men and women perpetuate sexist conditions. The problem is that you are taking your own limited personal experience and arguing that this is valid evidence for a theory.

as a youth subculture. I'm just curious do you also believe African Americans are in part to blame for racism?

Certainly not.

girls in high school, I seriously doubt whether nice guys who whine nonstop about never getting taken seriously as anything but a shoulder to cry on don't really have anyone to blame for that but themselves.

High school is over, but while there are a few women who remain shallow, I've found that most men do, avoiding women who are overweight, who don't have good teeth, who have zits, who have too many birthdays, or who have other physical flaws.

Want proof? Read the personals section of your local newspaper, the "men seeking women" section. Then read the "women seeking men" section.

My advice to all those nice guys out there is to stop whining and realize that none of us comes in a perfect package.

Either that or go get yourself a Real Doll™.

It works both ways.

knee jerk, defensive response.

Which is why the movie theaters and our TV sets are innundated with dreck about unattractive boring self-absorbed louts hooking up with beautiful ingenues.

Women can only be victims.

:eyes:

However, I was raised by parents who had a relationship based on respect and equality. My father was a man of honor who adored my mother and would never do anything to hurt her. He never abused me, yelled at me, or even talked down to me. I have a feminist mother who also adored her husband but would have been out the door in a heartbeat if he ever abused her. She respected her relationship and she respected herself.

I am the product of two emotionally mature people who understood that it wasn't enough to treat me with respect, but I needed to watch them respect each other. No fighting in front of me. No belittling or name calling. Not a day goes by that I don't realize how lucky I am. They didn't get this from their parents. I am honored that they made the conscience decision to raise me differently.

The point of my story? I believe abused and neglected girls have a greater chance of growing up to be abused and neglected women so we see a vicious cycle of sexism. To put the blame squarely on the woman who dates the asshole seems a bit disingenuous if her asshole (or non-existent) parent gets no blame whatsoever.

Now for the obvious disclaimer: Not all abused girls grow up to be abused women. Not all kids with the perfect childhood grow up to be adults who have healthy relationships. However, I see no problem with saying anything that would make parents think hard about how they treat their kids.

My friends joke that no geeky guy with a good IQ will ever be lonely around me.

Why? I like guys that are intelligent enough to carry on a conversation, treat me decently and isn't bothered by the fact that I have a brain. If that not present, I don't bother. Thus, I am single more than I am not.

A working knowledge of the "Battlestar Galactica" is a plus too.

a woman just like you. :)

Star Wars (the real one), Star Trek (the original), BSG (the new one, but the old one is great to riff on ala MST3K), Doctor Who (all versions), Torchwood, computers, movies, books by the thousands, and much more delightful geekyness.

I can just about recite the original Star Wars movie from start to finish.

usually by guys who are not very successful in relationships. It is the "Women don't want nice men, they want bad men" claim.

And yes, there are some maso women who fall into that category, but you are seriously impaired and getting bad advice if someone is telling you that is how to behave.

How do you behave to a woman?

Be yourself. Some women will like, some won't. Trying to "act" like someone you are not, is the greatest way to turn a woman off.

Also, nothing drives a woman out the door faster than the odor of desperation in a man. Women like men who are confident in themselves. They can be very forgiving of many things in a man if he has self-confidence and self-respect.

When the argument is made that women like "bad boys", the point is a fantasy stereotype. The majority of women don't want someone who will abuse then physically and/or emotionally. Women may like a scoundrel, but they never like a cad. What is the difference?

Han Solo is a scoundrel.

LEIA: Oh, you make it so difficult sometimes.

HAN: I do, I really do. You could be a little nicer, though. Come on, admit it. Sometimes you think I'm all right.

LEIA: Occasionally maybe...when you aren't acting like a scoundrel.

HAN: Scoundrel? Scoundrel? I like the sound of that.

HAN: You like me because I'm a scoundrel. There aren't enough scoundrels in your life.

LEIA: I happen to like nice men.

HAN: I'm nice men.

Yes, Han is a bad body. He's got that roguish smile. He also is the "villain with the heart of gold" stereotype, the shopworn space pirate who has seen it all and has the scars to prove. He appeals to women on so many levels, and looking like Harrison Ford doesn't hurt either. :)

But despite being a scoundrel, he has a solid code of ethics and is a good man at heart.

What women hate is a cad.

What's a cad? You know that guy who had an affair with Princess Diana, then sold his story to the tabloids when it became public? THAT is a cad. In the South, such men are traditionally horsewhipped by the male relatives (brother/father) of the besmirched female. Andrew Jackson shot a cad, as I recall, for comments made about his wife.

Men who mistake the nuances of these two behaviors are doomed.

most of it not on DU, with my most recent halfassed attempt upthread.

Yes, Han is a bad body. He's got that roguish smile. He also is the "villain with the heart of gold" stereotype, the shopworn space pirate who has seen it all and has the scars to prove. He appeals to women on so many levels, and looking like Harrison Ford doesn't hurt either.

But despite being a scoundrel, he has a solid code of ethics and is a good man at heart.

What women hate is a cad.

What's a cad? You know that guy who had an affair with Princess Diana, then sold his story to the tabloids when it became public? THAT is a cad. In the South, such men are traditionally horsewhipped by the male relatives (brother/father) of the besmirched female. Andrew Jackson shot a cad, as I recall, for comments made about his wife.

Men who mistake the nuances of these two behaviors are doomed.

You just said it a lot better than I did, and with fewer words. The difference is between a scoundrel and a cad...I'll remember that!

--Linda

I went to sci-fi cons dressed as Han in my younger days? :)

Met my wife there.

:toast:

Well said.

This holds true for all relationships, too, not just romantic/sexual ones. I'm a Kinsey 4 with a minimal interest in sex, and it's even true for me.

Demeaning all women and blaming women for sexism because YOU cannot get a girlfriend is one surefire way to perpetuate your problem.

I can't speak for the OP, I prefer not to make a personal judgment on someone I haven't met, but I've observed that most "nice guys" are actually horribly sexist. They see women as things to be played, and all they have to do is push the right buttons. With an attitude like that, the women with self-respect will get away as fast as they can, and these guys are only going to be looking at the self-loathing faction of women. When faced with a macho bombastic douche who doesn't respect them and a feeble whiny douche who doesn't respect them, that group of women will of course go for the self-assured douche. The "nice guys" are playing a game they cannot win.

I have seen this exact conduct personally in four separate men, all of whom are still without long-term relationships almost 25 years later. The comment is usually tinged with bitterness, and the conversation tends to go along the lines of well, if that is what they want, I'll be an asshole. Then they don't even know how to be a proper asshole :)

Sex, with any man or woman, gay, straight, bi or people in fursuits, is 95% mental, 5% physical. IT is exploring that person and finding the way to engage that part of them. You do this by talking and interacting with that person of a deep level. Yeah, looking like Harrison Ford helps, but if you are still a cad, you may get laid a lot, but seldom by the same woman twice.

It is not about looks or technique, it is about caring enough to learn, being open enough to see, and listening enough to hear.

The human brain has FAR more nerve endings than any penis of vagina. The only way to engage it is to use your own.

As a girl geek who's had more than enough dealings with self-proclaimed "nice guys" who aren't really interested in women as PEOPLE at all, and nurse brooding resentments about how the hot supermodel chicks don't "appreciate" them properly, let's find an example of one of these in that mythos.

Ah, here we go. Anakin Skywalker!

Oh, he thought he was such a nice guy. Swept Padme right off her feet with his loyalty and courtesy. And wound up utterly fucking up her life because he was so self-absorbed and wrapped up in his own fears and Issues and pride that he couldn't be bothered to really consult with her on anything. He put her on a pedestal and protected her to death. And oh, the whining. "I'm doing this for YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU."

Ick.

That kid creeped me out. Clingy, petulant, arrogant, controlling (he built his best friend after all).

I liked Star Wars a lot better when "The Force™" was mystical, and not an STD.

I guess they don't have restraining orders in that galaxy far, far away.

The reason people don't date you or only date "assholes" and "bitches" is likely because you are boring.

There. I said it. B O R I N G.

I learned this first hand. I was nice. And fat. And still in my hometown. And miserable. And BOOOOORRRRRING.

Then I traveled the country, then I learned guitar, then I traveled other countries. I MADE experiences and told a hell of a story. I LEARNED how to express myself artistically.

These "bitches" and "assholes" may lack social skills, but are probably INTERESTING. EDGY. Memorable even if only in a negative way.

I am married, but once I became "interesting" I fended off the boring girls left and right. They were all "nice", but no friggen WAY!

I married an interesting, beautiful, artistic, hard-to-handle-sometimes WOMAN.

Yeah, yeah..mileage varies, et ceteraaaaaa. But, if you are really looking for a solution, go do something interesting and tell stories about it.

And let's face it, there is nothing more tedious than a self-pitying person.

i'm sorry you're a failure, which is what is meant when some guy starts droning on about how our society is too obsessed w. the concept of success and failure

i'm sorry that you're passive aggressive, which is the single most unattractive type of male there is to any woman, but if i've lived this long there's one thing i've learned -- the guy who claims that he is "too nice" to get a woman is always, ALWAYS a passive-aggressive fuckwit

the genuinely nice men i know, such as my husband, all have partners

They're enjoyable to be around. Passive-aggressive fuckwits (great phrase BTW) are a chore to be around.

tell it like it is Pit!

I had tons of guy friends, many more than women, throughout college and graduate school. Some of them were these passive aggressive "nice" types. I got the inside scoop on how their minds worked because I was never romantically attached to them and I'm telling you WITHOUT EXCEPTION they ALL suffered from some sort of deep, embedded sexual entitlement disorder. Somehow to them, it shouldn't matter that they aren't particularly good looking, can't dress well, and equate flirting with a 2 hour monologue on genetic anomalies in fruit flies; if they're not getting laid by the first year hot Lebanese bombshell in the chem. program it is somehow society's/women's fault that they are not valued as sexual commodities.

That being said, geek is the new hip. However, new geek is not the Pointdexter-stalker type. Geek chic is the ability to display why something conventionally dorky and arcane is really interesting and amazing. People that can communicate their passion and mental gifts with confidence, wit, and charm while often making a nice salary will never find themselves short of hot AND intelligent women.

And I'ma hijack your post to do it. :)

Memo to all geek guys who hate what they perceive to be "alpha men," who mope about how nice they are to women.... and who lust after the elf warrior in a metal bra on WoW:

IF YOU RESPECT WOMEN, HIRE ONE.

If you are so damned NICE, then show the bare minimum of respect to women who are in your professional field, and GIVE THEM A JOB if they're qualified.

Yes, this is a bit personal, but I've found that as a woman in the IT field -- with an engineering degree and top 5th percentile on industry-standard aptitude tests -- I stand next to no chance at getting hired in a predominantly male company. Geekdom is their domain and I am an intruder. A real woman, a smart woman with above average looks, but they don't actually respect me enough to admit me into the group.

You're a nice guy huh? Picked on, geeky, intellectual? You hate those buffoons that abuse women and you're better than that?

The next time a woman is the most qualified applicant for a job, HIRE HER.

It's a polite way of brushing off a man who women really think is:

boring, uninteresting, or unattractive. Or too desperate, lonely or socially inept. Or not that much fun to be around. Or perhaps doesn't really have enough in common with the woman - god knows some guys will get attracted to women solely based on looks without a thought to actual compatibility.

So please disabuse yourself of the myth that women don't like men who are nice and only like 'pimps' and assholes or alpha-males or whatever it is you are telling yourself to avoid facing the truth.

Work on your self - develop a passion for something, become well read, make sure your personal hygiene is adequate and stop thinking the only women good enough for you is a super model. Then I think you'll find a lot more women will be interested in you.

Instead, they are getting tips on how to trick women into the sack. Which don't work, making the "nice guy" more bitter and petulant, thus perpetuating a further cycle of self-pity and wankery.

Are Jews, in part, to blame for Anti-Semitism?

with no votes, you ARE the Weakest Link. Goodbye!

Men who aren't particularly attractive often lament the bad taste of beautiful women, who only consider beautiful men. Of course, these men who aren't particularly attractive never consider women who aren't particularly attractive. Men think they're entitled to "hot" women, no matter how not "hot" they are. THAT is sexism.

When you expand your concept of sexism to the point where you include the stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the relationship between the two sexes, call me back, boy.

He is not smart. He is not a nerd.

He is a hot head with a penchant for adventure. He is not the "nice guy" you are worrying about in your post.

Sorry to burst the bubble, bubs.

I don't know your situation, but maybe if you started looking for someone more like you in looks, personality and interests, rather than someone to show off like a trophy, you will have more success.

Good luck!