John McCain's Navy Flight Instructor Weighs In?

I don't know about the source but
on edit, I did more research and it is an attack
by the Ron Paul brigade.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May 19, 2008

Greetings!

I was John McCain's Navy Flight Instructor --- in formation tactics and air-to-air-gunnery. I could write a book about this man. Suffice to state, I shudder (and I'm fearless) at the nightmare thought of this man becoming our next President and Commander in Chief. I am not alone as to this man's former shipmates, instructors and senior officers --- as to who and what this man is really all about. Although politics is really theater and the best performing actor gets to stay on the main stage --- sorta like American Idol only much more dangerous to all living things --- the performance and the make-over (re-invention) of this man is currently matched only by that of former LTC Oliver North, USMC (Ret.). Together on the same ticket, these two clowns would be real crowd pleasers in this sorry day and age of liars, banal dummies and limp-headed performers.

Thanx for having the guts to put the real deal information on the site re: John Sidney McCain III --- since the mainstream media is much too lazy to put the real story on McCain out there for the rest of their lazy consumers.

Best regards,

CDR Jerry K. Loeb, USN (Ret.)
Palm Desert, CA

Author - ANTHEM (2004)

www.amazon.com
www.b&n.com


http://dumpmccain.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=25

Nice to know we get a crack at it this time. Its great being on the offense instead of the defense.

...they died due to Gramps playing Top Gun. His time in Hanoi should be honored, but it doesn't make him any more of a hero than any of the hundreds of others who met the same fate. His military record was abysmal and combined with his erratic nature (flip-flopping, bad temper) are an indication of how wreckless he would be as a Commander in Chief. Whatever happened to "character matters"?

That's why I'm voting for Barack Obama.

He was dropping bombs on a civilian population of a country that never attacked the US. He was shot down. To their credit, they didn't kill him. although they did treat him poorly.

What do you think would have happened to one of the 9-11 hijackers had they survived the attack and fallen into US hands? Seriously. John McCain was treated much better than that hijacker would have been.

...at least in the concept of a political campaign. His POW years, no matter how we may agree it was done in what fits into either terrorism or war crimes is one that hits a third rail with many. I give the man credit for having to endure his captivity and the North Vietnamese violated Geneva convention rules regarding his and others who were captured. If we condemn Gitmo and any form of forced detention, then the North Vietnamese should fit in this room as well.

Again, this is an issue that is not easily nuanced...as his military service before his capture can be. The man enjoys widespread sympathy for what he endured and any attack on that time is sure to backfire...whereas questions of his military service and his fitness to serve then has a lot of bearing on the job he'd do now.

Now how is one form of torture better than another...they're all wrong.

I don't see where we should "honor" it.

I grew up with Vietnam and knew too many friends and acquaintances over the years who ended up there...by no choice of their own. I give McCain his props for not becoming a desk jockey or flying his jet around Texas. McCain didn't start that war nor did he say what and where to bomb...he was following orders...the blame for what you rightly call terrorism should be laid at the feet of McNamera who was running the Pentagon in those days.

Again, it's a nuance here...and even this one is tough to parse due to the overwhelming media idolization that has gone on about his military service.

it makes him no different from hundreds of thousands of others who served. Many people served. I don't think that service either makes them more or less suitable as president.

It's basically a non-issue.

for what happened on the Forestall.

I know a lot of people here have speculated that he was trying to get back at another pilot by messing with his weapons systems and that is what caused the malfunction that caused the missile to go off.

Unless, there is a concrete proof of this then there is no difference between saying this about McCain and what was said about Kerry.

I personally don't believe it based off what I have seen here, but if you have links I'd be happy to follow up on them.

The reason I don't think this is accurate is due to my time as a Marine Officer and sitting in on command selection boards. If McCain had screwed around with the weapons system, someone would have found out about it and while it might not stand up to an official investigation, it would be known among his superiors and his peers and would have been a career ended even with his actions as a POW. That would have prevented him from ever attaining a Bn level command, since those are decided by superiors who would have known what McCain did on the Forestall. McCain's father was retired by the time McCain was given his Bn level command, so I think he had to have had a good reputation and record as an officer to be awarded command. If he has really been responsible for what happened on the Forestall, there is no way he would have gotten command.

(I take your word for it that his father retired before the Forrestal tragedy.) As the son and grandson of Navy admirals, it looks to me from the assignments he received, despite his poor physical condition after the years as a POW, that McCain continued to benefit from his heritage. I know one retired Navy vice-admiral, and he keeps in very close contact with other flag-rank officers still in the Navy. I doubt that the Navy would start holding McCain accountable just because his Admiral father had retired. God knows he got by with all kinds of hell at Annapolis because of his family connections, and was even admitted to Naval Aviator School when he graduated 5th from the bottom of his class at Annapolis and was doubtless bumped ahead of many, many better qualified candidates for flight school (not unlike W and the Texas Air National Guard).

What is this "Bn level command" you refer to? Is that Battalion? If so, was he in actual command of a battalion, or in some lower level role? Was this his post Vietnam assignment in Hawaii, where he was notorious for his drinking and womanizing? Then he was moved to his Congressional liaison assigment in DC, w/yet more drinking and womanizing.

"Bn" is Battalion and to achieve Battalion level command means that you have to be selected for it by your superiors who know you and your reputation over an 16 to 20 year period. It is normally the goal of most career officers and they normally retire after it, unless there are hoping to make flag rank.

To achieve a Bn level command, you have to be selected for it by a Command Screening Board. This a very formal process in which you are compared to your peers and the board (normally made up of 1 or 2 Generals/Admirals and 18 or so Colonels/Captains) ranks the officers eligible and if you are high enough on the list, you are given a command. The boards deliberations are secret. McCain's father had already retired and been out of the Navy for about ten years when McCain came up for his board, so there was little chance McCain got his command because the board members were worried about retaliation if he didn't. McCain was given command of a fighter training squadron in 1976. This means he was the Commanding Officer and it was his squadron. According to Wiki, he did a decent job since the squadron received a Meritoriously Unit Citation.

FYI, I don't doubt that McCain's father keep him in at USNA or helped him get into flight school. I've seen General's son pretty much guaranteed infantry, tanks, or arty (sought after MOS's) because of their father's rank. However, it is a completely different thing to interfere or leave something out of an official investigation, which is what would have had to happen if McCain was responsible for the Forestall fire.

As for the other cushy assignments, that is between an officer and his monitor. If you know your monitor and are friends with him you get the better on command assignments. This is where being an academy grad helps you more than a non-academy grad, since there is a better chance your monitor will be an academy grad and will give you the hook up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I

While I haven't read Cliff Schecter's book yet, I hear he has some material on it...also here's another interesting post that explains better than I can...

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=13377

Google the Forrestal fire. The official account from the Navy/Forrestal history is notable for what it DOESN'T say about McCain:
Quoting Naval Aviation News, October 1967:
Lt. Cmdr. Robert "Bo" Browning one of the pilots due for launch with many others, he was seated in the cockpit of his fueled and armed Skyhawk; the plane was spotted way aft, to port. Lt. Cmdr. John S. McCain III said later he heard a "whooshy" sound then a "low-order explosion" in front of him. Suddenly, two A-4s ahead of his plane were engulfed in flaming jet fuel — JP-5 — spewed from them. A bomb dropped to the deck and rolled about six feet and came to rest in a pool of burning fuel.

The awful conflagration, which was to leave 132 Forrestal crewmen dead, 62 more injured and two missing and presumed dead, had begun. Over 30 planes were destroyed, and more damaged. As the searing flames, fed by the spreading JP-5, spread aft and began to eat at the aircraft spotted around the deck, Lt. Cmdr. Browning escaped from his plane. He ducked under the tails of two Skyhawks spotted alongside his and ran up the flight deck toward the island area. Twice, explosions knocked him off balance. But he made it.

The article detailed what the OTHER pilot did to escape. Nothing about McCain. The article details the heroism of the men on the scene - again NOTHING about McCain. He was closest to the scene, but while there were detailed accounts of heroism by many men that afternoon there is no account that McCain helped others in any way. He escaped unscathed and was transferred from the ship the following day, while the rest of his shipmates had a memorial service for the dead, and headed back to Subic Bay for repairs. Some Navy men claim McCain was hot-dogging around, as per usual (he had bailed out of 3 earlier planes in flights in the US, and let them crash) and that he caused the tragedy, and that he was taken off the carrier immediately to save him from the anger of his shipmates.

Read the book "Sailors to the End" which is about the Forrestal fire. McCain's plane's fuel tank was punctured by the errant Zuni rocket that was accidentally fired from a plane across deck and aft of McCain's plane. The way the planes were positioned on deck at the time McCain's plane's engine exaust would've been facing the sea.

What set off the explosion was a WWII era thin-skinned bomb which never should've been brought on board cooked off in one minute thirty-four seconds. There was a shortage of bombs so they were given these crappy WWII era bombs whose cook-off point had degraded from age and from being stored outside in the tropical conditions of the Phillipines.

BTW, the author of this book didn't appear to have any agenda on McCain one way or the other. He only gets brief mention of the events unfolding. His plane being struck, his escape from his plane, that he took shrapnel from the explosion but for a time aided in disposing of ordinance off the hanger deck.

See this DU entry in Non-fiction books. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=209x6309

Googling around, there are people alleging that the fire on the Forrestal was caused when John McCain wet-started his A-4 Skyhawk and cooked off that Zuni rocket. (A wet-start is when you work the ignition controls to pool fuel in the engine during the start sequence, causing a huge gout of flame to come out of the engine when it starts. This was a frequent stunt by hot-dog pilots to scare people.)

I'd like to know. Crash McCain would have his finger on the button if he was President...

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=13377

I posted about it above. I remember this story first surfacing during the 2000 campaign.

the theory that McCain, wet started his jet. The author can say he did, but there is no link to anyone who was there or any official documentation that states this is what happened. Its at theory with no official accounts to back it up. FYI, McCain was a Lt Cmdr at this point and had done two previous deployments on aircraft carriers, so to describe him as a "young hot-shot" is a tip off this report might not be accurate. I'm at work right now and can't watch the video.

I'm saying this as a military officer familiar with official investigations and the "OK, here is what really happened" non-official version that those involved know about. Even if there is no official paper work about McCain wet starting his jet, and if he did do it, there would still be the knowledge of that among his peers and superiors that would have prevented him getting command that I talked about in a couple posts above.

I'll try and find the official investigation tonight and see if there is anything in there and get back with you.

I first heard about this incident back in 2000 and then saw the video (with McCain being pointed out as he ran from his jet).

It'd be interesting if there was some official documentation or if anyone will step forward to give a first-hand account. Generally, I'm dubious about these things as well and would love to have solid paperwork in hand...as I'm sure many others would.

That said, remember that this is not a trial where dealing with here, but politics. As we saw with John Kerry, his service was easily distorted and we also saw by Kerry's poor response how it grabbed hold and hurt his campaign. I mention 2000 since I am sure the origins of this story, if it is a story rather than truth, probably came out of the rove machine.

Unfortunately, as we saw with the current "pResident", military records can vanish or get doctored for political expediency. I look forward to seeing what you find out.

Cheers...

:toast:

Get your facts straight!

"I mean if we republicon homelanders did it, then it is then an ACT in perfect accord with our well-established Republicon Family Values. Smirk."

- Republicon Homelanders

I'd be very surprised if this is legit.


And yes, I'm aware that McCain's military record is less than stellar.

This is the sort of thing I'd like to see him say in person.

If he's passed away, it shouldn't be mentioned as there's no way of proving it.

If he is alive and we make an issue out of it and he comes out a says he never said it, it has the potential to be caustic.

I just broke the story when I found it. Anyway, it looks to me
that it is generated out of the Ron Paul brigade against McCain.

The Ron Paul people are furious at the GOP right now
and are also taking them to court in two states over
disenfranchisement of delegates. The GOP convention
is even trying to not allow them to come to the convention.

I love GOP infighting.

CAPITOL HILL STAFFERS RATE THEIR BOSSES

McCain got no glory from those who work with him.

“Every election year we survey top aides on both sides of the aisle—administrative assistants, press secretaries, legislative directors, and chiefs of committee staffs—to get their up-close and personal, and anonymous, views. While there may be lots of partisan backbiting among congress members, their staffers seem far more capable of putting politics aside and making honest judgments. It wasn’t unusual for aides in both parties to name one of their own as “spineless” or give the “workhorse” nod to someone across the aisle. “


Worst Follower 2. John McCain (R-Ariz.)


Show Horse 2. John McCain (R-Ariz.)


Hottest Temper 2. John McCain (R-Ariz.) known to snap at staff when the cameras are off

:spray:

Well played. :applause:

governed by the two shittiest pilots to ever put on a uniform in the last 50 years?

Including the one he flew into a power line...

How the hell is that his fault? And his shootdown which means every pilot in the Hanoi Hilton was a lousy pilot.

Another was a flameout of his jet engine - that one was pretty common in military jets and a lot of pilots had to punch out under those conditions.

The other two I'd like to see the Navy accident investigations reports on. The training flight where he went in to the bay and the power line incident in Italy.

and to be fair, equally awkward conditions for being considered a coward.

over his abilities as a pilot.

However, I think we really need to stay away from McCain's service until after Obama picks a VP. If that pick has a lot military experience, then we bring up McCain's service record. If he doesn't, I think we concede the military service and continue to hammer McCain on the economy.

No.

flight instructor he must be older than dirt.

I mean of course it is possible - McCain was a terrible pilot - Didn't he crash 6 jets?

I have just the right RW e-mail forwarder to use this on.