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The Opening of the Floodgates of the Eugenics Movement in the U.S.: The Sterilization of Carrie Buck

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 05:20 PM
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The Opening of the Floodgates of the Eugenics Movement in the U.S.: The Sterilization of Carrie Buck
The eugenics movement in the United States is a sordid story of unbounded arrogance, hypocrisy, classism, racism, and blatant disregard for the principles upon which our country was founded. Perhaps it would not be worth learning about if we as a nation were in no danger of repeating similar atrocities.

But it is worth learning about. Edwin Black, who previously documented IBM’s role in the Nazi Holocaust, documents the sordid history of the U.S. eugenics movement in his 2003 book, “http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dwar%2Bagainst%2Bthe%2Bweak%26btnG%3DSearch&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPP1,M1">War Against the Weak – Eugenics and America’s Campaign to Create a Master Race”. From the introduction of his book:

Throughout the first six decades of the 20th Century, hundreds of thousands of Americans and untold numbers of others were not permitted to continue their families by reproducing. Selected because of their ancestry, national origin, race or religion, they were forcibly sterilized, wrongly committed to mental institutions where they died in great numbers, prohibited from marrying, and sometimes even unmarried by state bureaucrats…

This pernicious white-gloved war was prosecuted by esteemed professors, elite universities, wealthy industrialists and government officials colluding in a racist, pseudoscientific movement called eugenics. The purpose: create a superior Nordic race. To perpetuate the campaign, widespread academic fraud combined with almost unlimited corporate philanthropy… to cleanse America of its “unfit.”

Though the roots of the eugenics movement in the United States go back to the late 19th Century, it did not establish legal legitimacy until the first state sterilization statute was passed in Indiana in 1907. That statute was based largely on similar but vetoed 1905 Pennsylvania legislation titled “Act for the Prevention of Idiocy”, which “mandated that if the trustees and surgeons of the state’s several institutions caring for feebleminded children determined procreation is inadvisable, then the surgeon could perform such operation for the prevention of procreation as shall be decided…”

Still, for the two following decades, most states, even those that enacted sterilization laws, were reluctant to proceed very far in implementing eugenic policies. The eugenics movement needed legitimacy via a test case to take before the U.S. Supreme Court.


The case for the sterilization of Carrie Buck

In 1920, Carrie Buck’s mother, Emma, was brought before a Commission on Feeblemindedness in Virginia. Hearing officials noted that Emma had syphilis, characterized her moral character as “notoriously untruthful”, and answered “No” to a question on the standard form asking if Emma “conducted herself in a proper conjugal manner”. That was enough to officially deem Emma as feebleminded and have her committed (1*) to a “Colony for Epileptics and Feebleminded”, where she would remain for the rest of her life.

Emma’s daughter Carrie was then consigned to the family of J.T. Dobbs, a peace officer, to raise her. Carrie did well in school, but the Dobbses withdrew her from school (2*) in the 6th grade so that she could spend more time on housework and be loaned out to other families for housework as well. In 1923, at the age of 17, Carrie was raped and became pregnant. Dobbs then filed commitment papers, claiming that Carrie was feebleminded, testifying that “Carrie had experienced hallucinations and outbreaks of temper and had engaged in peculiar actions.” On that basis, Carrie was quickly declared “feebleminded” and committed (3*) to the Colony for Epileptics and Feebleminded.

By that time, Virginia had had so many “unfit” committed to its institutions that they were becoming a financial burden. The desired solution, strenuously advocated by the eugenics movement, was sterilization, which would allow states to release their “unfit” in the secure knowledge that they wouldn’t pass on their dangerous genes to future generations. But courts throughout the United States had reacted unfavorably to sterilization laws, so states were reluctant to proceed very far along that path. What was needed was a U.S. Supreme Court setting precedent.

The eugenics movement leaders considered Carrie Buck to be an ideal test case because there were already two generations of diagnosed “feeblemindedness” in the family (Carrie and Emma). If Carrie’s daughter Vivian could also be so branded, they could then make the case for sterilization of Carrie based on documented three generations of feeblemindedness. But Vivian was only 7 months old, and her social worker noted that there was nothing in her medical records that indicated feeblemindedness. But under intense questioning the social worker admitted that “There is a look about it that is not quite normal, but just what it is, I can’t tell”. That was good enough, given Vivian’s family history, for the leader of the American eugenics movement to declare Vivian to be feebleminded (4*).

The state of Virginia then advocated for Carrie’s sterilization, based on three generations of feeblemindedness. For Carrie’s defense, the state appointed an attorney who was a staunch eugenics advocate. The case was duly appealed up to the U.S. Supreme Court, which ruled in Buck v. Bell that “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or let them starve... society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind…Three generations of imbeciles are enough.”


1*) J. David Smith and K. Ray Nelson. The Sterilization of Carrie Buck, 1989, pages 15-16.
2*) Smith and Nelson, pages 1-3, 5-6, 18.
3*) Paul A. Lombardo, “Eugenic Sterilization in Virginia: Aubrey Strode and the Case of Buck V. Bell”.
4*) Harry H. Laughlin, “Analysis of the Hereditary Nature of Carrie Buck”, The Legal status of Eugenic Sterilization, pages 16-17.



The opening of the sterilization floodgates

A few months after the USSC decision, Carrie Buck was sterilized in October, 1927. Her daughter Vivian was enrolled in school, despite the diagnosis of imbecile, and made the honor role prior to dying of an infection at the age of eight.

With the USSC Buck v. Bell decision of May 1927, and with a great amount of lobbying from the eugenics movement, many states lost their hesitancy about going down the sterilization path. During the 18 years between the passage of Indiana’s first state sterilization law of 1907 and 1925, there were 6,244 state-sanctioned sterilizations and castrations (5*), an average of about 347 per year. Fifteen years later, by 1940, there were an additional 29,634 sterilizations or castrations (6*), an average of 1,976 per year, almost six times the annual rate prior to the USSC decision.

Sometimes people or societies recognize their misdeeds only when they see the same trait in others. Such was the fate of the American eugenics movement. Black explains in his introduction to “War Against the Weak”:

Eventually, America’s eugenic movement spread to Germany as well, where it caught the fascination of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi movement. Under Hitler, eugenics careened beyond any American eugenicist’s dream…. Only after the truth about Nazi extermination became known did the American eugenics movement fade…


5*) Harry H. Laughlin, Eugenical Sterilization 1926; Historical, Statistical, and Legal Review of Eugenical Sterilization in the United States, p 60.
6*) Human Betterment Foundation, Legal Status of Eugenical Sterilization



Fast forward to present

Thus, as eugenics came to be associated with our mortal enemy of World War II, the eugenics movement faded out of site. Yet, today we do things that are, in my opinion, just as bad, and which are characterized by many (though not all) of the same underlying dynamics:

Highest incarceration rate in the world
According to a December 2006 U.S. Justice Department report, there were 2.2 million people incarcerated in U.S. prisons or jails, representing a 33 year continuous rise in the U.S. prison population. The U.S. incarceration rate of 737 per 100,000 residents is now the highest rate in the world. Russia is a distant second, with 611 per 100,000 residents, and the highest rate in Europe is England/Wales, at 148 per 100,000 residents. The United States, with only 5 % of the world’s population, holds one quarter of the prison population of the world within its borders. Of the total U.S. prison population in 2004, more than one quarter, 530,000, were imprisoned for drug offenses, and almost a tenth of these were for marijuana only. And many of those are for mere possession, rather than manufacturing or selling. For example, of 700,000 marijuana arrests in 1997, 87% were for mere possession, and 41% of those incarcerated for a marijuana offense are incarcerated for possession only. This is not surprising when one considers that most non-violent first time offenders guilty of drug possession today in the United States get a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years with no parole, or 10 years with no parole if a large quantity of drugs is involved.

The racial and class disparities in the United States for imprisonment for drug offenses are similar to the racial and class disparities seen in the victims of the eugenics movement. Though the Federal Household Survey shows that there are five times as many non-Hispanic white illegal drug users as black users, blacks constitute a highly disproportionate percent of the population arrested for (37%) or serving time for (42% of those in federal prisons and 58% of those in state prisons) drug violations.

Whenever and wherever victimless crimes are prosecuted and punished, the opportunity for arbitrary enforcement of the law based on racism, classism or other nefarious factors is magnified tremendously.

Adding to the damage done to individuals is the damage that these laws do to families, thus creating a vicious cycle. It is likely that the major reason for single parent households in our country today is the huge number of imprisoned men.

Imperial violence
What our Iraq War has shown more than anything else is how little concern the elite sponsors of U.S. policy value human lives, especially the lives of foreigners of different racial/ethnic background than us.

Keeping in mind that all justifications for the Iraq War have turned out to be lies, our illegal war against Iraq has created over a million Iraqi dead (the vast majority civilians) and more than four million refugees, out of a population of just over 25 million. What are some of the dynamics of the US military presence in Iraq that have allowed this to happen?

A report by a coalition of non-governmental groups called the Global Policy Forum sheds a lot of light on some of the reasons for the tragedies that so many Iraqis have suffered under the U.S. occupation. The report explains that U.S. forces:

have held a large number of Iraqi citizens in 'security detention' without charge or trial, in direct violation of international law. No Iraqi is safe from arbitrary arrest and the number of prisoners has risen greatly since 2003 (when the US-led war began)…

U.S. military commanders have established permissive rules of engagement, allowing troops to use deadly force against virtually any perceived threat. As a consequence, the US and its allies regularly kill Iraqi civilians at checkpoints and during military operations, on the basis of the merest suspicion…abusing and torturing large numbers of Iraqi prisoners… torture increasingly takes place in Iraqi prisons, apparently with US awareness and complicity…

The United States has established broad legal immunity in Iraq for its forces, for private security personnel, for foreign military and civilian contractors, and even for the oil companies doing business in Iraq…

U.S. prisoners outside of the United States
Whereas our internal incarceration rate is by far the highest in the world, our imprisonment of prisoners outside of the United States is even more disproportionately high. There are: known U.S. operated prisons at Guantanamo Bay and in Iraq and Afghanistan, where torture and other grave abuses of human rights occur routinely; Secret U.S. prisons throughout the world where similar or worse abuses occur routinely; and “extraordinary rendition”, whereby U.S. officials kidnap (or otherwise gather into their custody) men or boys and transport them to prisons in countries where few or no barriers to the most horrendous kinds of torture exist, in full knowledge that those men are likely to be systematically tortured and never released until dead.

Stephen Grey, Amnesty International’s Award-Winning Journalist for Excellence in Human Rights Reporting, in his book “Ghost Plane”, meticulously documents the illegal and horrendous system of torture and other human rights abuses that George Bush has perpetrated upon the world as part of his so-called “War on Terror”. Here are excerpts of the U.S. torture program from the introduction to Grey’s book:

While the president spoke of spreading liberty across the world, CIA insiders spoke of a return to the old days of working hand in glove with some of the most repressive secret police in the world… Much later, when more pieces of the puzzle were in place, I thought of the work of Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the dissident writer. When he described the Soviet Union’s network of prison camps as a “Gulag Archipelago” … After years of persecution, Solzhenitsyn described a jail system that he knew from firsthand experience had swallowed millions of citizens into its entrails. At least a tenth never emerged alive…

The modern world of prisons run by the United States and its allies in the war on terror is far less extensive. Its inmates number thousands not millions. And yet there are eerie parallels between what the Soviet Union created and what we, in the West, are now constructing… How much more than surreal, more apart from normal existence, was the network of prisons run after 9/11 by the United States and its allies? How much easier too was the denial and the double-think when those who disappeared into the modern gulag were, being mainly swarthy skinned Arabs with a different culture, so different from most of us in the West? How much more reassuring were the words from our politicians that all was well?

How many prisoners do we have? Estimates of how many prisoners have disappeared into the Bush administration’s Gulag system cannot be precise because of the secrecy. Estimates have varied from 8,500 to 35,000. An AP story estimated around 14,000:

In the few short years since the first shackled Afghan shuffled off to Guantanamo, the U.S. military has created a global network of overseas prisons, its islands of high security keeping 14,000 detainees beyond the reach of established law.

Colonel Larry Wilkerson, former Chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, who had put the blame on Dick Cheney for much of the administration’s “torture guidance”, claims that the number of “disappeared” approximates 35,000.


The connection between past and present

Similarities between the U.S. eugenics movement and the above noted circumstances of the present day include a blatant disregard for human rights, unbounded arrogance, racism, and classism. The young man who is locked away for five years for possession of a minute quantity of illegal drugs because he is black, poor, and can’t afford decent legal representation; the Iraqis who are killed, chased out of their homes, or locked away for several years with no opportunity to question their detainment because they happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time; all these people have much in common with Carrie Buck: They are helpless victims against a system controlled by powerful men who don’t have any sympathy for the most basic universal human rights.

And as with the Nazi Holocaust, these are all elite driven activities. Most Americans have no more enthusiasm for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, the highest incarceration rate in the world, or a world wide gulag system today than they had for the eugenics movement in the early decades of the 20th Century. Yet, as with the German peoples’ reaction to the Nazi Holocaust, partly because of lack of information, and partly because of apathy, most Americans have sat passively by and allowed these things to take place without much protest.

The eugenics movement in this country was defeated in large part because its similarity to Hitler’s eugenics program was too stark to avoid recognizing it as such. Hitler was our wartime enemy, and the exposure of his many atrocities caused such revulsion among most Americans that everything he did was greatly suspect in their view.

But that was a long time ago. A minority of today’s Americans were alive during Hitler’s day, fewer still were old enough to remember, and too many of them have either forgotten or never learned the lessons of the Nazi Holocaust. So, when today’s Americans witness the starkest and most widespread violations of human rights ever committed by our country’s leaders, they don’t recognize them for what they are. Instead, most Americans maintain a naïve faith in the decency (if not the competency) of their leaders that is totally unwarranted by any serious examination of the facts.

The U.S. Constitution provides no guarantee against fascism or any other kind of tyranny. It only provides a blueprint that enables us to maintain freedom and democracy as long as we care enough about those things to recognize when they are in grave jeopardy and exercise sufficient vigilance to maintain them.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. You put a lot of work into that.
Thanks.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. eugenics =forced sterilization = prison sentences = Iraqi war dead all seems a bit of a stretch.
Edited on Wed May-21-08 05:33 PM by aikoaiko
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. No. It doesn't.
In fact, it seems like a fairly easy to follow progression.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. not everything that affects birth rates is eugenics.

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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Dont forget the several million Vietnames dead
That number far surpasses anything in Iraq.
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I didn't. I don't. And that is a gift
that, like the A-bomb, continues. Agent orange.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. What they all have in common is contempt for the idea of human rights
Or more generally, almost total lack of empathy for other human beings -- an elite and powerful group of people forcing their will on other people, with little or no concern for the people they are thereby repressing.

With regard to prison sentences, it isn't prison sentences per se that I see as the problem. Obviously we need prisons in this country or any other country, and there are many crimes for which people ought to go to prison. But when your country has the highest rate of incarceration of any country in the world, it is worth asking WHY. That is something you expect of dictatorships, not democracies. When hundreds of thousands go to prison for several years for the mere posession of a drug, it is worth asking what the purpose of such a program is.

I do not believe that the purpose is to protect the American people. Do you?
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aasleka Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. You just completely changed my mind about another topic from another post. Of course you're right
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. What did I change your mind about?
And what caused you to change your mind?
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aasleka Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. re
In another topic I had advocated that people are a result of their choices, even if there are perfectly clear reasons why they make the poor choices that they do. While I also support a safety net and many social programs I maintained that people should at least have to recognize their responsibility for the choices they make. Education and engagement rather than funding and food.

Your post reminded me that while we often do make poor choices there are innocents who get caught between the masses and insanity.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Excellent point
I do believe that responsibility needs to be encouraged and rewarded. But at the same time innocents need to protected. Where and HOW to strike the balance is a tremendously difficult question.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. not only that, but
i'm seeing more and more people in the internet world profess an interest in transhumanism...personally, i view that and eugenics as one and the same, imo
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. I had never heard that term before
According to Wikipedia, transhumanism is

a synonym for "human enhancement", is an international, intellectual and cultural movement supporting the use of science and technology to enhance human mental and physical abilities and aptitudes, and overcome what it regards as undesirable and unnecessary aspects of the human condition, such as disability, suffering, disease, aging and involuntary death

That sounds so general to me that I can't figure out what it means. Who could argue with trying to relieve suffering and disease? If not for antibiotics to combat infectious disease, I would probably be dead now, and so would millions of other people. It's difficult for me to ascertain the ways in which this might be similar to eugenics.

What are the ethical problems that you have with this?
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. it just seems kind of master race-y to me, imho
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. You could be right
I think that any time you see the goals of an organization laid out in such broad and vague terms, that's a warning sign that it has an agenda that it's not talking about. Something like Bush's claim that we're in Iraq to spread freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people.
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ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. As terrible as forced sterilization was
Even more terrifying is what one prominent American family did to their daughter.

Lobotomy
In 1941, when Rosemary was 23, her father was told by her doctors that a lobotomy would help calm her "mood swings that the family found difficult to handle at home". Joseph Kennedy gave permission for the procedure performed by Dr. Walter Freeman, the director of the laboratories at St. Elizabeths Hospital in Washington, D.C., together with his partner, James W. Watts, MD, from the University of Virginia. Watts performed his neurosurgical training at the Massachusetts General Hospital, and later he became the Chief of Neurosurgery at the George Washington University Hospital. Highly regarded, Dr. Watts later became the 91st president of the Medical Society of the District of Columbia.

At the time of the surgery, the procedure was relatively new: Freeman and Watts had only performed 65 previous lobotomies. Dr. Watts, who performed the surgery while Dr. Freeman supervised/observed, described the procedure:

Instead of producing the hoped-for result, however, the lobotomy reduced Rosemary to an infantile mentality that left her incontinent and staring blankly at walls for hours. Her verbal skills were reduced to unintelligible babble. Her mother, Mrs. Rose Kennedy, remarked that although the lobotomy stopped her daughter's violent behavior, it left her completely incapacitated. "Rose was devastated; she considered it the first of the Kennedy family tragedies."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy

You have to keep an eye on all of them, don't have blind trust in anyone.


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Frontal lobotomy
Frontal lobotomy used to be used much more frequently than it is today. I believe that it still is believed to be useful in certain rare situations, but I'm not sure, even though I'm a physician.

There is little doubt that it was much overused in the past. The extent to which that can be attributed to honest ignorance as to its effects vs. a reckless disregard for patients is not clear to me.

I think it has probably helped some people, but there is always a price to pay. The question of if and when it is worth the risk is a very difficult question.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. I do not have a problem with Sterlization...
I think that the mentally challenged/Handicaped people should be sterlized, I do not say that to be cruel either. Even convicted criminals; like murders, rapist, child molestors..etc should be sterlized, I do not have a problem with it at all.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I don't disagree that some people should be sterilized under some conditions
Edited on Wed May-21-08 07:44 PM by Time for change
Rapists would be the most obvious case (with adequate safeguards to protect the innocent). I am willing to consider whether there may be other situations that warrant it, and I accept that well meaning people will have different opinions on it, but I haven't thought enough about it.

The eugenics movement in this country, however, was a gross and massive violation of human rights. It was based not on concern for peoples' offspring, but rather on the prejudices of those who controlled the movement. Thousands of innocent people were ripped from their homes and incarcerated for no good reason whatsoever. Sterilization was only part of it.

But what I hoped to make obvious in this post, as illustrated by the Carrie Buck case, is that in the good majority of cases where sterilization was performed, there was no good reason for it other than the prejudices of those in charge. There was no good basis to believe that she would not give birth to normal offspring in the future, and there was no good evidence that there was anything wrong with the one child that she had. Do you not believe that her case was a gross miscarriage of justice?
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Yes of course she was violated...
and I agree that her situation and those like it are vile.

I was not agreeing that her case was justifiable in the least.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. With regard to the handicapped and mentally deficient, etc.
Why should we sterilize them against their will? I see a number of problems with that.

Those people have committed no crime. I presume the justification would be that they wouldn't be able to care for their children if they gave birth. But it is very difficult to judge something like that before the fact. We do have laws that enable children to be removed from households where they are abused, neglected, or otherwise not adequately cared for. Why not rely on those laws rather than try to judge before the fact who will or will not be able to care for their children? Those were the kind of laws that invited abuses such as what I described in this OP. And that was no isolated case -- their were thousands of similar cases.
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aasleka Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Until the DNA evidence proves them innocent 20 years later? or

who is to judge who is at a "retarded" level. That was the whole problem.

The constitution does not say, all healthy people have a right to pursuit of happiness, it does not say all smart people nor all people without webbed feet etc.. You see where I am going with this?
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Well obviously there are people on a 'retarded' level...
What do you mean who is to judge? We already judge and place people with special needs in group homes, nuseing homes..etc because they are special needs people.

I see more of a tradgedy in a pregnant special needs person than I do in their sterilization. Murders, rapist and child molestors volunteer to have their reproductive rights revoked simple by the crimes they commit, IMO.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. you and I differ
"I see more of a tradgedy in a pregnant special needs person than I do in their sterilization."

I see more tragedy in a systems which begins to select people it considers inferior and 'breeds them out' of the gene pool. Treating someone with special needs and *fixing* someone with special needs are two wholly different ideas. One is compassionate for the person the other is cold calculated master race creating crap.

"Murders, rapist and child molestors volunteer to have their reproductive rights revoked simple by the crimes they commit, IMO."

Same logic that many use for the death penalty, what happens when you sterilize someone who it later turns out is innocent?
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. My lord, I hope you are missing the sarcams tag by accident..
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
34. It would seem to me that castration...
would qualify as cruel and unusual punishment as classified under the constitution.
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. A lot of anti-choice nutjobs claim that
abortion = eugenics. Because the Nazis forced Jewish and other female prisoners to undergo abortions (while it was illegal for German women). Also because people are choosing to abort if there is a trigger for Down's Syndrome or other genetic anomalies. Personally, it may sound horrible, but I don't have a problem with that. It's the parents' right to choose if they want to raise a kid with a chronic disease, Down's Syndrome, etc.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I agree with you. There's a huge difference between voluntary and involuntary abortion
Voluntary abortion (on the part of the woman) is not eugenics, regardless of what the right wing nut jobs say.

As you point out, sometimes there is what may technically be considered a eugenic reason behind a voluntary abortion -- such as in the choice to have an abortion to prevent having a Down's Syndrome baby or a baby with other serious genetic abnormality. I don't have a problem with that -- as long as it is a voluntary choice by the woman. If the choice is made by someone else, however, I have a big problem with it.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. I agree...
"It's the parents' right to choose if they want to raise a kid with a chronic disease, Down's Syndrome, etc. "
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. well, Margaret Sanger (advocate for birth control and founder of PP) was a well known eugenicist
Edited on Thu May-22-08 09:43 AM by aikoaiko
Birth control and abortion was a part of voluntary negative eugenics that targeted "dysgenic" groups.


eta: this is not to disparage Sanger -- she's a hero by my way of thining. Its just that people with good intentions and bad latched on to the eugenics movement.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
16. Buck v. Bell, the Supreme Court case authored by Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes,
Edited on Wed May-21-08 09:02 PM by no_hypocrisy
has never been overturned. In other words, states still have a "legitimate" right to sterilize any citizen it deems "unfit" against his/her will. There are laws still on the books of several states for this purpose but they are not utilized. But if they were, until the Supreme Court condemns this practice, the states could summarily sterilize anyone.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. I hope that if a state tried it, it would be challenged aggressively
Too bad that we now have one of the most conservative -- not to mention corrupt -- US Supreme Courts ever. No telling what they might do.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Reaffirm it most likely and expand the criteria who can be involuntarily sterilized by the State.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. That's just one more reason we can't afford a McCain presidency
At least now we have 5 votes that can at least be counted on to excercise some restraint against confirming Fascism in our country. If Stephens dies while McCain is president that will be the end of us.
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jaksavage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
28. Poppy Bish and GHW Bush
Both ran for office on the eugenics ticket..
Murderous bastards.
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