Confederate flag ignorance still alive and well in Gettysburg.

Went by a few tourist shops today. Among the t-shirt slogans:

Heritage, Not Hate (A classic!)

If at first you don't secede, try, try again. (Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.)

If you think this flag stands for hate, study American History. (Something like that, anyway. Newsflash: I've studied American history, and I still think it stands for hate.)

The battle flag was co-opted by hate groups and has now become such a symbol. Interesting that there didn't seem to be much of an outcry about it being co-opted for that purpose when the Klan and others did so.

that drives this trashy looking pickup with two large flags flying from the bed of the truck. One of them the Confederate Battle flag and the other the US flag. I wish he would pick a side already.:crazy: Plus, this is Wisconsin...:wtf:

Seems like a lot has changed since 1860. :sarcasm:

Those who embrace the Confederate Flag like to argue that it's not hate but heritage. BS.

That is a cover argument for their racism. Sort of like how Christian Evangelists (Hagee et. al.) like to use their religion as a cover for their political agenda.

Years ago, when my kid was in high school, a black kid who played basketball with him came by the house one day sporting a ginormous confederate flag belt buckle. When I asked him if he knew what that meant he said yeah he just wore it to piss off all the rednecks.

I have been saying for a while that minorities should steal that flag.
After all,it was originally a flag of rebellion.

In New Jersey... what the hell? We have no Confederate "heritage" here.

...I am the descendant of three civil war soldiers from the south. I don't fly a confederate flag or anything like that. I am in no perceivable concept of the idea a racist or bigot. But when I see a confederate flag in the appropriate setting (if such a thing can exist) I have a certain feeling of pride in my ancestors who served for a cause they believed in. But I like to think their cause was honor of the homeland and not in support of the abominable institution of slavery. Robert E. Lee is a respected hero here in Virginia and I understand why. He did not support slavery but the right of his state to make the decision. That's all.

Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Savior have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Lee%20on%20Slavery.htm

The tone of the letter is in keeping with the general attitude of the southern aristocracy, which acknowledged that slavery was a "flawed" institution, but insisted that abolition would be worse.

The year after he wrote that letter, Lee inherited over 100 slaves from his father-in-law. (Lee himself had owned slaves before that, but never such a large amount.) His father-in-law's will held that the slaves should be freed in as expedient manner as possible following his death, with a five-year maximum time frame. Lee kept them for the full five years, and when a few of his slaves were captured attempting to escape, they were flogged on his orders.

Lots of people have argued that Lee didn't support slavery, frequently offering that same letter you've cited as evidence. But the letter is actually very ambiguous--critical of abolition movements while viewing slavery as an evil, yes, but one worth tolerating for the time being. And it doesn't change the fact that he actually owned over a hundred slaves when he decided to fight for the south in the Civil War.

Yet we admire and respect them as revolutionary heroes. You point out nothing I didn't already know. This doesn't make me admire or respect Lee any less. Thank you for your imput.

If you already knew everything I said about Lee, then why would you claim that he didn't support slavery? I'm just curious how you reconcile those points.

Date back to the late 1600s down there. Ever hear of Littlejohn Arena at Clemson? Littlejohns are my people, on my grandmother's side. The SC Legislature voted on secession in my grandfather's family's back yard in Abbeville SC. A malaria epidemic had forced them out of Colombia.

My grandmother, who was a Littlejohn, was as southern as they come. She had no time or patience for those who dragged the Civil War around behind them like a security blanket. She was proudly an American citizen and regarded the Civil War as a sad time, one best left to the mists of the past. She felt that those who still were fighting the war were "unseemly" and she had no regard for "That Flag".

That flag, as she knew so well, brought a lot of misery to a lot of folks, mostly folks who could least afford that brand of misery.

I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.
I will not make any of the many obvious analogies.

I, too, am the descendant of Confederate soldiers (who went on to join the Klan after the war, BTW). My whole family is from the South. Georgia, Alabama and Texas, all states of the former Confederacy. I have never in my life felt pride in what the CSA fought for. I've never felt a swell of nostalgia for old times when I see the Confederate flag. All I feel is rage, resentment and embarrassment.

People who talk about heritage are trying to blindside you with their bigotry and racism. They're hoping you won't notice that they know they're wrong; it's why they try to disguise the feelings for the flag as "heritage, not hate". They know the real reason the CSA broke with the USA: Slavery, not states' rights.

I post this every now and then in order to inform people of the truth behind the Civil War. A lot of people express surprise that they didn't know this before. So, here goes:

In January, 1862, the Confederacy was winning the war on all fronts. Every time the Blue and the Gray clashed, the Blue got righteously smashed by the Southerners. England, seeing which way the war was going, sent a message to Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederacy. The message contained an offer from Her Majesty's government in London. The offer had three parts:

1. Full diplomatic recognition of the CSA. VERY important. If the British Empire recognized the Confederacy as a legitimate state, the rest of the world would, too.

2. Full military assistance. If the CSA had at its disposal the most powerful army and navy in the world, there's no way they could have lost.

3. Potentially the most lucrative trade contract in history; selling cotton to the British Empire, which at that time was the world's largest consumer of cotton.

There was only one string attached to the offer. Just one.

Abolish slavery.

Jefferson Davis said "No, thanks."

By January, 1865, the CSA was losing the war on all fronts. The end of the war and defeat of the Confederates was only a few months away. Jefferson Davis announced that he was now prepared to accept England's offer, hoping to stave off defeat. England, seeing which way the war was now going, said "Too late. The North is going to win."

Anyone who says it wasn't about slavery is either stupid or lying.

The Confederate flag is about slavery and about nothing else. That is why is makes you uncomfortable.

I didn't say the war wasn't about slavery. Gee! You people are more rabid than the "Heritage, not hatred" crowd. Please don't blow my remarks out of context.

"I have a certain feeling of pride in my ancestors who served for a cause they believed in."

+

"I didn't say the war wasn't about slavery."

=

EGADS!

They are always ready to fight for what they believe in, usually on the side of this country.

How much murder & hate does YOUR flag represent? How many of *my* ancestors did *your* ancestors kill?

Stone, meet glass house...

things might be different. The fact of the matter, however, is that it was created and only existed in the context of the war to preserve an abominable and racist system of chattel slavery. Those are the only ideals it stands for.

Is the US flag also blood-stained? Absolutely. But the US as a political entity is quite separable from its myriad crimes--its creation was not itself an act designed to promote atrocities (indeed, it was justified, and reasonably so, on the highest of moral principles), and it has had a rich and varied history of both good and bad.

Not that I am particularly fond of any variety of flag-waving--to the contrary. But there's a defensible distinction here.

The Confederacy didn't start because of the war, the war started because of the Confederacy. The South was for State's Rights and had seceded from the Union. *That* is what started the Civil War....

I'm familiar with the history, thanks.

And the South only supported "States' Rights" when it was useful to its ends to do so--like most other political players, then and now. Its major end, in the context of secession, was the preservation of slavery.

...isn't that why were supporting the Democratic Party?

Some prices are too high to pay.

Thank god the founding fathers supported the concept of inalienable rights to all men and women, not just the rich, white, landed gentry(XY chromosome).:sarcasm:

All MEN are created equal (if they're white, landholding gentry). Not quite what you suggested.

oops! I sorta overlooked the :sarcasm: my apologies!

But you're missing the point: the justification for independence was couched in those terms, and not unreasonably so.

The very fact that the Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal--regardless of whether or not the country it created actually obeyed that principle--shows this point quite well. Could the Confederacy ever have declared such a thing?

In fact they worked quite well for the rich white guys who created them. Blacks weren't considered men they were considered property, so there goes your argument right there.

And you're still missing the point insofar as you fail to realize that the enslavement of Blacks and ethnic cleansing of Native Americans was peripheral to the justification for independence.

Indeed, the Declaration of Independence originally included a condemnation of the cruelty of the slave trade, but it was excised because of protests from Southern delegates.

Also, that kettle is MUCH too black.
signed-
Kettle
:rofl:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

For many, history remains in the biases of the beholders- and some will try to capitalize on it.

Because just under this post is an E-bay advertisement selling, guess what... confederate flag paraphernalia. Ain't the inter-tubes grand.

I know several people who are fascinated with that war...not what started it, what ended it...just the war. It was the ultimate bloodsport and a war loaded with tactics and innovation. These are the re-enactors and "crack historians"...many who probably can recite the Ken Burns mini-series by heart. I really don't see racism in these people as much as those into war and the many stories that came from this war.

North of the Mason Dixon line its about racism. South of the border it probably still is but the heritage line has no strength in states that fought in the union.

I saw more confederate flags in Indiana than I did living in NC. That should tell you something.

That would explain the Confederate flag sightings in Indiana.

Seeing that Abe Lincoln mainly grew up in Indiana. The city I lived in had a giant statue of Lincoln as a Youth. Yet the confederate flags were all over the place.

and for the South not getting its way.

:)

Thanks.
:popcorn:

Are you SURE you were in Gettysburg?!

T-shirt shops and ghost tours all over the place.

Capitalism trumps all.

For some reason it's just obnoxious to me.
We just acquired a house in KY, and as I was going through the pictures for it, I noticed that someone had painted a wall sized rebel flag one of the bedrooms. It's just obnoxious. And I can't sell a house with that in it! We will be painting over it as soon as possible.
Duckie