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Scottie McClellen has proved 9/11 was NO inside operation

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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:06 PM
Original message
Scottie McClellen has proved 9/11 was NO inside operation
Just the stuff I've read so far demonstrates the idiots in the Bush administration couldn't mastermind a panty raid let alone the worst terrorist attack on the United States in history.

The bastards are nothing more than a collective group of marketing experts. They know how to sell. They are all, every last damned one of them, glorified used car salesmen.

They could no more plan and carry off anything resembling 9/11 then they could fart and propel themselves to the moon.

But then again, the way the Iraq war has been run was enough to prove all this, and did so five years ago.

Never mind.
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well said! n/t
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
89. The VP
is way smarter than the P
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. That's pretty much what I've concluded...
The only thing those asshats know how to do is operate a political campaign. They couldn't put together a conspiracy more complicated than a circle jerk.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I don't think they have enough wherewithal to pull poff a circle jerk
:evilgrin:
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. I've been saying that for years!
No way 9/11 was an inside job. Bush and Co. are just too plain stupid to formulate and initiate a plan of that magnitude.

At the very worst, they're guilty of ignoring the warnings.
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StarryNite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Don't be so sure.
The Iraq invasion/occupation is a mess but yet we are still there. We are getting screwed but the corrupt bush bunch is still getting their way.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. We're there because they sold it.
They're salesmen, nothing more.

They remiond me of salesmen I've worked with in the tech industry who claim miraculous shit could be done and then turn it over to the technical guys to make it all happen (ever read Dilbert, Adams gets it).

As a professional manager in the technology sector, I have a deep understanding of what the front line commanders in IRaq must be going through.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. That doesn't rule out LIHOP. n/t
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Sure it does
LIHOP is 100% dependent upon the belief that they were aware enough to even think there was a remote possibility of a threat.

These assholes can't piss their pants without wetting the front of 'em.
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Frank Cannon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
72. It's been proven that they were aware of the possibility of a threat
The only thing they needed to do in a LIHOP scenario is exactly what they did... jack shit.
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Sure doesn't.
They may not have planned it, but they were warned about it, repeatedly, and chose to do nothing. What I find most telling is that it happened so shortly after W took office. It was like the perps, the Saudis, knew that once Bin Laden family friend Bush was in office there would be no consequences. To them, anyway.
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Beausoleil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Sometimes the most effective thing the incompetent can do
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:35 PM by subliminable
is nothing.

They knew it was coming, maybe not of the magnitude that it turned out to be, but they chose to let it happen because they knew they would benefit.

edit to add: At a minimum. I believe they did more than "nothing". Cheney's "war games" for example.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
107. IMO Cheney at least knew the expected magnitude.
The neocons had been dreaming of a "catastrophic event" necessary to justify pre-emptive war and a de facto One Party State ruled by a Unitary Executive...and right on cue it happened.

Either they knew or they are the luckiest SOBs on the planet (who coincidentally just happen to be some of the richest most ruthless politicians in American history).
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Beausoleil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #107
114. They didn't fantacize about a new "Pearl Harbor" for nothing. n/t
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
108. Which leads us to the very fine line between LIHOP and MIHOP.
Isn't LIHOP pretty much just as bad? I mean, if the only way those who perpetrated these acts could have been successful is to rely upon blind eyes, isn't that almost the same as MIHOP?
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
52. I still have that problem with the heat of the fuel
and the melting point of the steel. Still not sure about MIHOP.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. definitely MIHOP IMHO. nt
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #52
74. If I have2 choose between Michael Shermer & the Woo-woos in the 9/11 forum, I'm siding with Shermer.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. No they couldn't have masterminded it but they showed
little acknowledgement of the seriousness of the threats. They willingly ignored all credible sources that pointed to the eventual crime. They deceided to play party politics and they endangered the country.....to me that is Treasonous.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. That's because they were too busy figuring out how to sell their agenda
to worry about the real shit that goes along with "presidentin'".
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. well, somebody did it and I am no closer to being convinced...
...that the official story has any merit than I ever was.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. i think they did what they do best (nada).
If that puts me in the much maligned LIHOP group, so be it.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #42
77. It's a very big group
Who believes they were in on it.
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Star80 Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. PNAC
had it all planned out.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. PNAC laid out a marketing plan
nothing more.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. People Not All Charitable
Yep, I agree. :p
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. How can you call them incapable
when they've gotten nearly every damn thing they've wanted, and are still getting their way on just about everything?
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. They're SALESMEN
That's what they do.

A better wordm might be "confidence men" which is what people who are in sales do except the salesmen try to stay within the bounds of the law.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. The word I like is "grifters."
They are con artists. They are no different in principle from the swindler who sells swamp land in Florida or fraudulent stock in a gold mine. Or the Nigerian e-mail scammers. An awful lot of people were conned, too.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. No, they're more than just salesmen
Even the best of salesmen couldn't have gotten away with as much as these people have. They are retreads going all the way back to the Nixon administration. During the past 40 years or more, they haven't been merely selling, they've been learning and mastering nearly every underhanded trick in the book.
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StarryNite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Exactly!
Look at all the shit that's happened and they have not been held accountable for a damn thing. Look what has happened to our country since the neocons took over. That doesn't just happen. It was no accident and 9-11 was not pulled off by a bunch of guys with box cutters. Buildings do not collapse like that without a lot of prep work being done first. Keep you eye on the ball.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. 9/11 - "The day the reset button was hit"

9/11: Cover For A Coup D'Etat?

Diary Entry by Ed Encho

"A coup consists of the infiltration of a small but critical segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder."

-Edward Luttwak

SNIP

September 11th 2001. The day that will forever live in infamy as the day when the reset button was hit on over two centuries of American history and allowed for the new doctrines of preemptive war, the domestic police state and the codifying of torture into the law of the land. The real meaning as well as the cause of 9/11 continues to resonate and be debated throughout the alternative media and the blogosphere despite the sanctimonious reverence given to it by the corporate, state controlled mainstream media where those who dare to even suggest that it was blowback are shouted down by angry demagogues standing atop their electronic soapboxes. That one single day more than anything else has been used as the justification the rise of the new American fascist state and the illegal wars of aggression that feed the colossus that is the military industrial complex.

Since that horror filled, pristine Tuesday morning that was abruptly shattered as no other day in the history of our republic had ever been prior to it (I omit Pearl Harbor for the obvious reasons that it was a military target and Hawaii in 1941 was not yet an official state) we as a society have been changed forever and changed for the worse. We now torture as a matter of official policy. We allow ourselves to be spied upon by a rogue government that increasingly views dissent as sedition and treason. We have seen Habeas Corpus which had been a bedrock principle of law since the days of the Magna Carta rendered null and void. There has been an unprecedented consolidation of power in the Executive Branch and the neutered Congress has been reduced to a chattering club of irrelevant partisans with no real power or the intestinal fortitude to reassert itself as per the intentions of the founders as put forth in The Constitution.

There has sprung up a permanent and highly lucrative industry of institutionalized surveillance that has rendered privacy a quaint thing of the past. Our national airports have become Soviet style checkpoints where citizens are treated as criminals by ill tempered and poorly trained goons and thugs. Our domestic police are becoming increasingly more aggressive and militarized with instances of brutality and bullying becoming commonplace, the saying “if you’re not cops you’re little people” has gone from a line in a dystopian science fiction movie to reality. Deaths by Taser have been steadily increasing with no oversight, our fascist packed courts are now ruling in favor of the manufacturer of this dangerous weapon. The United States has in the most perverse Orwellian way been transformed into something as antithetical to what America was supposed to have always stood for that is strangely called “The Homeland which conjures up memories of a certain mid 20th century European land gone insane.

SNIP

A while back I found a piece of information that really gave credence to my strongest suspicions that the ‘terrorist’ attacks of 9/11/01 were used as cover for an actual coup d’etat by a rogue network of fifth columnists and their multi-national foreign allies who then utilized the (C.O.G) Continuity Of Government infrastructure to effectively seize control of the United States which would effectively render the actual attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon as not even the greatest crimes of that particular day. I discovered this piece on Edward Luttwak while plowing through the massive tome Neo-Conned! Again: Hypocrisy, Lawlessness, and the Rape of Iraq which is the second volume of a great collection of essays on the neoconservative pox on America that run the ideological gamut from Pat Buchanan to Noam Chomsky but all are consistently antiwar. The particular piece that I refer to is one that was written by Italian journalist Maurizio Blondet on neocon Edward Luttwak that references his seminal 1968 book . (a postscript to Chapter 3) Blondet draws comparisons to the Luttwak blueprint and the ascension of the neocons by using 9/11 as a basis for their rise to power.

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=7521


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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
69. I agree. They've masterminded and gotten away with things that should be unthinkable.
Like stealing two elections, illegally invading and occupying a sovereign nation, torturing prisoners, etc. etc., all the while conditioning much of the population through the media to accept these things as normal.

I don't think that the argument that they were too incompetent to pull off 9/11 is a valid one. I'm not sure that they did it, but I'm not sure they didn't either.
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Alameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
84. agreed
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
17. PNAC masterminded it, all thought out in a neocon think tank... Cheney, Rumsfeld, Libby, Feith,
Wolfie, Rice, Bolton... our government is infested with neocons...

The chimp was brought into the loop because he *had* to be.... all he was told was that he was gonna fulfill his grandfather's legacy & dreams.


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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. Just think of Scottie Mac as a Level 2 Disinformation campaign.
The Bushies have very often gone to great lengths to portray themselves as buffoons precisely in order to deflect accusations of sinister competence.

Was Katrina incompetence...or a great opportunity to destroy a Democratic bastion in the deep South, replacing it with a Disney theme park?

Is the Iraq War a bungled operation that they thought would be won in 2 weeks...or a wonderful way to get us into a Forever War for the benefit of the international financier class, Big Oil, and the likes of Halliburton--while simultaneously advancing their fascist agenda at home?

etc.
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democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. very well said
these guys do know exactly what they are doing. the incompetence meme is just disinfo.

after all, when two oilmen are running the country and the price of oil has multiplied with no end in sight during their terms, i'd say they were successful on their terms in that narrow sense.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Bush & company planned 911 his brother was security for the
WTC towers the whole thing was just a big show for the American people to forget that he stole the 2000 Election and go to war with Iraq
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. ...never been able to figure out why people give them so much credit
Biggest bunch of losers ever.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
109. Losers who stole two elections.
Then started an illegal war and haven't had a single repercussion. Not after destroying the constitution, not after wiping their asses with the bill of rights. They may be evil assholes, but they're not losers. I don't understand why Dems can't see that after 8 years of this shit.
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cbc5g Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. A foreign government who benefited from 9/11 by having 2 neighbors knocked out could mastermind it
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:18 PM by cbc5g
Especially since oil pipeline deals with former UNOCAL now president of Afghanistan Hamid Karzai that benefited *that* country were signed right after he was installed as president.

But yeah the Bush admin is too damn stupid and corrupt to even do anything like that.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
22. They've really done a number on you and the rest of this country haven't they?
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:19 PM by TheWatcher
So many of us have really bought the "incompetent keystone cops" concept hook, line, and sinker.

9/11 happened because of their incompetence.

The Iraq War ended up being the clusterfuck it was because of their incompetence.

Katrina happened because of their incompetence.

The Economy has been blown out because of their incompetence.

What you fail to understand is that they are NOT incompetent. Anything but. They have accomplished everything they have set out to do. Bush was the perfect Puppet to help them do the job.

They are going to get away with it Scott free. And Guess What? As I have said before, from the Top of the leadership to the most average working American WE ARE GOING TO LET THEM.

Incompetence? Try DESIGN.

You've been had. We all have.

And the worst news of all? They'll be back.
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StarryNite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Yes! You said it well.
As to them being salesmen, well yes there is that too. They are selling their own line of shit and sadly people are still buying it.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
46. Indeed! Gov't being run as a criminal enterprise at the highest levels.
We've totally been screwed.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
51. Indeed well said....
I completely agree. McClellan's book is like a limited hangout. Used to re-inforce the incompetence idea. These people are psychopaths and they're still running the show.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
70. Yes, well said.
:applause:
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
97. Bingo.
Bush himself may not know what he's doing, but rest assured those who are pulling his strings do. And they are here to stay.
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MadinMo Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
98. Well put. If there is incompetence, it is B***.
But the rest of the cabal has known exactly what they were doing. They WANT us to think they are incompetent, or that B*** is incompetent, and they have succeeded at that and many other things.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
120. They'll Be Back Especially WHen Folks Keep Underestimating the Bushco Type (nt)
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. Bullshit Rumsfeld & Cheney could if you read the book and quotes
They did what they wanted all the time secretly according to Scotty

They did what they wanted to on 911 too.

Bush had no clue, he was told what to do that day.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. It wouldn't have required much brains to let the 9-11 event
happen. They would have known fully the fortuitous consequences for their "Junta".
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
26. That doesn't answer all the questions
This doesn't answer what Norman Mineta meant with his descriptions of Cheney in the bunker saying the orders still stand, or what all those war games that were going on on the morning of 9/11 were about, or why Robert Wright or Able Danger weren't listened to, etc.

The fact that the Bush admin is a bunch of idiots doesn't negate the serious questions that need to be answered.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I think many of us deep down in our hearts and minds know the answer to those questions.
And we can't handle the Truth, or the possibility of the Unthinkable.

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
31. Think of Scottie Mac as running a Level 2 Disinformation campaign.
The Bushies have very often gone to great lengths to portray themselves as buffoons precisely in order to deflect accusations of sinister competence.

Was Katrina incompetence...or a great opportunity to destroy a Democratic bastion in the deep South, replacing it with a Disney theme park?

Is the Iraq War a bungled operation that they thought would be won in 2 weeks...or a wonderful way to get us into a Forever War for the benefit of the international financier class, Big Oil, and the likes of Halliburton--while simultaneously advancing their fascist agenda at home?

etc.


If Scottie really wanted to get the Bushies, he'd tell about Guckert and a whole mess of other things, and he would be accusing Bush of much more than a bit of opportuinstic propaganda.

And no, Rove isn't gonna go down because of Scottie. Scottie has done nothing more than lay on another layer of untestable allegations. Rove has handled worse than that a thousand times.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. I like the way you think n/t
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Thank you.
BTW, most of my surviving relatives have been in Saskatchewan for the past 98 years.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
32. I think your central premise is wrong
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:30 PM by Juche
Lets look at all the 'accomplishments' of the Bush administration:


Stealing 2 elections

Tricking the american public into an unnecessary war

Doing more to harm the constitution and bill of rights than any other presidency in history

Breaking the law with abandon while being nearly 100% free of any consequences

Subtly taking over leverages of power and influence (electoral boards, media outlets, DoJ) and using them as tools to manipulate the public and the government to service their ends

Concentrating wealth in the hands of the top 1% at levels not seen since the 1920s.



So to claim they are incompetent is pretty silly. Short sighted perhaps, but not incompetent. Clinton got impeached for a Blowjob. THe Bush admin took over the DoJ and tried to use it as a tool to engage in political persecutions and will probably walk away scott free after all is said and done. That doesn't make them incompetent.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
50. Yes, exactly. Stupidity is a cover.
One that most of thier followers can identify with, of course.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #50
82. The Front Man Is, Indeed, Stupid
The rest of 'em, i'm not as convinced. But, there is no doubt in my mind that Bush is an empty suit with an empty head. I've not bought any thing hook, line and sinker. I know what i see and can see the difference between acting and what is. He's an idiot.
The Professor
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #82
92. OK, sure. The C in C (Chimp in Charge)
has never actually been in charge. I see him as a narcissistic, vicious psychopath with a great deal of low cunning, but no depth or vision.
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Prefer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
34. The administration didn't make the plan
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:41 PM by Prefer
It was a preconceived military operation. All they did was authorize it.

You can go and see the documents from when they discussed similar false flag operations with Kennedy, that coincidentally involved hijacking airplanes and blaming it on terrorists. Except they were going to switch out the planes with empty ones and fly then crash them in the ocean and blame it on Cuba.

So it is no coincidence when 40 years later the same play is made and it relies on a total stand down of our defenses and the buildings look like they were control demolished.

I basically knew when I heard the Pentagon had been attacked. At that moment, I knew this was impossible, especially when there were already two airplanes hitting the towers an hour earlier. Impossible that we were not on guard.

Here are the documents I spoke of:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. What do you think 9/11 was?
19 guys with primitive weapons sieze 4 aircraft at approximately the same time. This is hardly high tech or complex strategy.

OTOH, somebody gave the order for the AF to stand down. Jets that are normally scrambled in 15 minutes or less took more than half an hour to get into the air, and then they somehow couldn't find the hijacked aircraft. That was not something that the hijackers had any control of.

This administration wants us to think this was a sophisticated, complex, multi-faceted assault on America because they don't want us seeing how very simple and easy it really was. And they prefer we not look at how it was NOT stopped.

Never mind.
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Prefer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. And the anti aircraft gun in the middle of the Pentagon - what's that there for?
Is that just not manned? They need a reservation to let them know to shoot you down?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
37. That's what I've said from the very beginning.
LIHOP? Maybe, at least by the smarter ones like Cheney. Just park Stupid out of town so he doesn't screw anything up by trying to take control and let it go forward.

MIHOP? No way in the whole wide world. This gang couldn't pull anything like that off in a million years.

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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
38. I have always wondered...
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:54 PM by Baby Snooks
They really are a bunch of fools but in the end Hitler proved to be a fool as well. That said, what I have never doubted is that they knew there was a legitimate threat, and subsequent revelations have proven that they knew there was a legitiimate threat, and knowing hijackings by terrorists associated with Osama bin Laden would fit nicely into their agenda to invade Afghanistan and Iraq they made the decision to allow it to happen by not alerting anyone to the threat. They were still complicit on that basis. And as guilty as Osama bin Laden.

The final piece of the puzzle was Princess Haifa who wrote checks to a "poor Saudi family" in California who in turn gave the money to the hijackers not realizing the checks might turn up in the Riggs Bank investigation. And as soon as they did and as soon as questions were raised and according to rumor a subpoena was issued Princess Haifa and her husband Prince Bandar returned to Saudi Arabia on "urgent family business" and of course that, as they say, was that.

And so we have an incomplete puzzle. But enough of the puzzle is there to know they were complicit.

This country is in desperate need of a Nuremberg. If John McCain or Hillary Clinton become president we will never have one and the crimes of George W Bush will be swept under the rug the way the crimes of George HW Bush were swept under the rug.

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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
39. "Overgrown military establishments are inauspicious to liberty,..
and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty"
-George Washington
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
40. "Marketing experts." That nails it.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
44. Don't attribute to conspiracy something that can be explained by stupidity.
Bush's "deer in the headlights" expression in that Florida classroom that day said it all. He was in WAY over his head.

:evilfrown:
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. This is rediculous.
Bush didn't have to do anything. He didn't have to plan anything. Oversee anything. Nor participate in any way. All he had to do was sit tight and let the shit go down. Then he'd get his war presidency. War profiteers would get their profits. The anthrax murderers have gotten away. OBL has gotten away it seems. I think he's long dead myself. No one's been held accountable for anything other than some low level soldiers at Abu Ghraib(siq). All the while the bushco and their buddies making billions. I hope I can be that incompetent. :eyes:
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gauguin57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
47. LOL! ... "couldn't pull off a panty raid" ... You've got that right!
:rofl:
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
54. weak lihop. That's what I've always believed.
Not massive conspriacy lihop. Just having enough actionable information to keep us safer, and not caring enough about it due to entrenched ideology.
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
55. They OUTSOURCED it BECAUSE they couldn't do it themselves
They got the Saudis to get Osama to round up some true believers to do the highjackings.

Then they got Mossad to wire the buildings with explosives and other high tech logistics.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Then the GOP did what they do best: sit back and do nothing. n/t
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #55
86. The Saudis certainly financed it, and the money went through..
Pakistan. That much is pretty certain. I doubt we'll ever actually find out who masterminded it, I doubt it was Bin Laden, although he may like you said have provided the manpower.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
58. Bullshit. MIHOP
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
59. You won't mind if we have another look at that 9/11 event, will you?
One that isn't controlled by the people in charge of this country on that day? Perhaps everything went down exactly as they've stated. If so, they certainly have nothing to worry about..but I'd prefer to have a truly independent group of people with subpoena power to make sure that everything was covered. 9/11 was the root justification for all of their criminal acts since. People kill people for loose change in a victim's pocket. What will a group of greedy sociopaths be willing to do to steal a trillion dollars and rule the universe? "My life would be easier if I were dictator." Coincidence that Commander Guy made that point 3 times before 9/11? I'm not so sure.

I don't think the 3000 people who died on 9/11 would agree with our accepting a "they were incompetent, so "no harm,no foul"" unaccountability defense.

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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Very well said....
Thank you! And we won't mind at all. By all means. Please, please, look again. But a bit closer this time. :banghead:
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StarryNite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. I don't see how anybody could buy
the incompetent defense. Way too much planning and setting up went into it. Buildings don't fall like that unless a lot of prep work was done in advance. And that's only one small part of it. Who told NORAD to stand down? Why did the SS leave bush just sitting there in the classroom?
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
62. This war is going exactly as they wanted it to go..........
You actually think they want to leave? They could give a rats ass about the welfare of Iraq and its people. They are raping this country over and over again, and that has always been their agenda.
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StarryNite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. No exit strategy!
That proves they never intended on leaving. Also the huge American embassy. You're right, it is going just the way they wanted it to. It's all part of the New World Order they are trying to create out of chaos.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #64
76. The corporations they're beholden to don't make $ if "they leave."
And for anyone to actually believe that these pricks wouldn't be behind the plans that would green-light they're ability to embark on and justify their war profiteering and police state measures is perversely fucking naive.

But hey, people will believe what they need to.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
63. If not MIHOP, then LIHOP. But they KNEW. They damn well KNEW.
Edited on Thu May-29-08 02:27 AM by TheGoldenRule
:grr:
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Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
65. You don't think Cheney could?
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underseasurveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
66. Oh My God simple scotty has 'proved' no such thing
:eyes:
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
67. Wow, a new era has indeed dawned
because this thread has not been shunted down to the 9/11 dungeon yet!

Once upon a time, this thread would have been off of GD in fewer than 3 posts!

Times they are a-changin'
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:38 AM
Original message
Nah. Posts "debunking" a 9/11 conspiracy are always permitted in GD..
Edited on Thu May-29-08 07:41 AM by Junkdrawer
If too many rebuttal posts with WTC7 animations appear, THEN they are moved.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
68. I've been trying to tell the 9/11 conspiracy guys this for years.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
71. Read Matt Taibbi's new book, "The Great Derangement"
He compares and contrasts Christian fundies, GOP psychos, and 9/11 Truthers.

Scary parallels.

I highly recommend it.
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Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #71
104. That is despicable, and you know it...
You're not fooling anyone, Mr. Pitt.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #71
113. Read Philip Zelikow's "Catastrophic Terrorism" article.
Then read his paper about "public myths", his writing of the pre-emptive war policy and his work on the 9/11 Commission (detailed in "The Commission" by Philip Shenon).

It's fascinating reading.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
73. No, it proves Bush didn't plan 9/11. But, we all knew that...
Cheney, Rumsfeld, Libby, Feith, Perle... these are the guys to investigate.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
75. LOL...easy to see how many DUers will LOVE this thread!
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
78. Don't lump them in with used car salespeople
ever heard of certified pre-owned? It takes the risk out of used cars, but there is no way to take the risk out of the Booshe misadministration.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
79. Here's the one thing:
You're right, there's no way this bunch could have planned this.

That doesn't mean they couldn't have had someone plan it for them.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #79
112. It seems fairly obvious
that 9/11 was a "shock and awe" raid on New York.

We all saw a similar thing happen to Baghdad (on a bigger scale) just 18 months later.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
80. Provocations as Pretexts for Imperial War

Provocations as Pretexts for Imperial War: From Pearl Harbor to 9/11
By James Petras* Axis of Logic
May 25, 2008, 10:39

SNIP

Professor Zelikow – Where do we go from here?

The key figure in and around the Bush Administration who actively promoted a ‘new Pearl Harbor’ and was at least in part responsible for the policy of complicity with the 9/11 terrorists was Philip Zelikow. Zelikow, a prominent Israel-Firster, is a government academic, whose expertise was in the nebulous area of ‘catastrophic terrorism’ – events which enabled US political leaders to concentrate executive powers and violate constitutional freedoms in pursuit of offensive imperial wars and in developing the ‘public myth’. Philip Shenon’s book, The Commission: The Uncensored History of the 9/11 Investigation pinpoints Zelikow’s strategic role in the Bush Administration in the lead up to 9/11, the period of ‘complicit neglect’, in its aftermath, the offensive global war period, and in the government’s cover-up of its complicity in the terror attack.

Prior to 9/11 Zelikow provided a‘blueprint’ for the process of an executive seizing extreme power for global warfare. He outlined a sequence in which a ‘catastrophic terrorist event’ could facilitate the absolute concentration of power, followed by the launching of offensive wars for Israel (as he publicly admitted). In the run-up to 9/11 and the multiple wars, he served as a member of National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice’s National Security Council transition team (2000-2001), which had intimate knowledge of terrorist plans to seize US commercial flights, as Rice herself publicly admitted (‘conventional hijackings’ was her term).

Zelikow was instrumental in demoting and disabling the counter-terrorism expert Richard Clark from the National Security Council, the one agency tracking the terrorist operation. Between 2001-2003, Zelikow was a member of the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. This was the agency, which had failed to follow-up and failed to pursue the key intelligence reports identifying terrorist plans. Zelikow, after playing a major role in undermining intelligence efforts to prevent the terrorist attack, became the principle author of the 2002 National Security Strategy of the United States, which prescribed Bush’s policy of military invasion of Iraq and targeted Syria, Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas and other independent Arab and Muslim countries and political entities.

Zelikow’s ‘National Security Strategy’ paper was the most influential directive shaping the global state terrorist policies of the Bush regime. It also brought US war policies in the closest alignment with the regional military aspirations of the Israeli state since the founding of Israel. Indeed, this was why the former Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu stated at Bar Ilan University that the 9/11 attack and the US invasion of Iraq were ‘good for Israel’ (see Haaretz, April 16, 2008).

Finally Zelikow, as Bush’s personal appointee as the Executive Director of the 9/11 Commission, coordinated the cover-up of the Administration policy of complicity in 9/11 with the Vice President’s office. While Zelikow is not considered an academic heavyweight, his ubiquitous role in the design, execution and cover-up of the world-shattering events surrounding 9/11 and its aftermath mark him as one of the most dangerous and destructive political ‘influentials’ in the shaping and launching of Washington’s past, present and future catastrophic wars.

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_26788.shtml
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
110. Zelikow is the Zelig of 9/11 n/t
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
81. so how did these "idiots" come up with the PATRIOT act?
and systematically dissemble the Constitution?
9/11 aside, the folks who did these things could not be the complete fools you portray.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. Sure They Could Be
Those we see could be complete buffoons. The puppet masters, probably not so much.

Besides, these folks aren't just drooling idiots. Some of them honestly believe that their limited philosophies would actually work. Much of what has happened badly could very well be unintended consequences of foolish people who thought they were smart enough to do the right thing.
The Professor
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. Somebody masterminded the stolen election of 2000..
it certainly wasn't the idiot, perhaps Cheney's true masters whoever they are.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #81
94. Sshhhh!..you're ruining it for the blind faithers who prefer to discount "crazy" conspiracies!
Edited on Thu May-29-08 09:22 AM by Echo In Light
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
85. The outsourced it, like they do everything else...n/t
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
88. ah yes, the incompetence theory
Maybe, but until we have all the facts, the jury is still out.

There is so much we don't know about 9-11 that it is impossible to reach a valid conclusion.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #88
95. Incompetence theory = safe. That's why people desperately cling to it despite all that is known
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kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
90. Guess they can fool you twice.
Edited on Thu May-29-08 08:59 AM by kickysnana
Nothing that happens with Republicans is by chance. This book was meant to come out to distance the "smart" Republicans from the "dumb" Republicans to win back voters.

They are all part of the same Borg and Soctty has not "seen the light" he is just playing his next role in this tragedy.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #90
101. I agree.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
91. My personal opinion on their involvement has always been, and still is
that it wasn't an "inside job" in the sense that they masterminded it, but rather than they knew "something big" was coming. However, they figured it would be a traditional hijacking or series of hijackings.

They decided to allow the hijackings to take place. Normally, few people, if any, die in a regular hijacking. Sometimes, but it's more common that they don't. They figured that the hijackings would scare people and give them the cover they needed to implement the already prepared Patriot Act. It would also give them the cover to attack Iraq, since they could blame it on them.

It's possible that they knew it would be more than a regular hijacking, but never counted on the planes hitting the WTC or the Pentagon. They probably just thought they would crash them somewhere.

This is why they all crapped their pants on 9-11, when the "pearl harbor type event" that they were waiting for turned into such a disaster. That accounted for Bush's stunned look in the FL school. They were prepared to respond to a normal hijacking with demands for prisoner releases etc. They were totally unprepared for what really happened.

In other words, they fucked up really bad -- but they're not totally innocent, because they let it happen.

Just my guess.
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ogsbee Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
93. The incompentence claim is like a "get out of jail free" card
Instant resolution. Keep repeating that canard, stay asleep. Mustn't wake up. Nothing to see here folks, keep moving.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
96. this post is an insult to all used car salesmen.
:)
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
99. Mastermind 9-11 - NO - turn their backs on intel? absolutely. (August PDB)
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
100. Well, no one has ever explained WHY the
secret service let him sit in that school for so long without whisking him away to safety.
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
102. Yeah, they're so incompetent..
they have complete control of one of the most influential countries in the world, they break international law, commit mass murder, and they're going to get away with it.

:eyes:
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
103. The "defense" now is they are too stupid to pull it off?
The "stupid" alibi is just a stroke of brilliance, if you'll forgive the expression. It feeds into feelings of superiority in a most natural way and as a net result they get off scott free. In any conflict situation you underestimate your opposition at your own peril. In this case letting them slide for being stupid is plain wrong.

Consider this: They all ran for office on the promise of keeping us safe. They fucked up on that promise. Stupid, dumb, incompetent--no matter how you describe it--it still happened on their watch and they were responsible.


But yeah, they really ARE pretty damn dumb. Arrogant too.



Laura
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
105. So why are they all kissy face with the nation who actually did
the raids, the Saudis? There is plenty of evidence connecting Saudi royals with the 9-11 attack including money laundering that got money to Mohammed Atta directly from Saudi Arabia not through Osama Bin Laden. So again, why is the Bush administration and the BFEE all kissy faced with them? You surely don't believe that the Bushes knew nothing.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
106. No they didn't plan it... they just LET IT HAPPEN... they had all kinds of warnings
and the August PTB is kind of hard evidence

Osama Bin Ladin Determined to Strike America

But that was a historical document you see

Whether they let it happen ON PURPOSE, or they just didn't care is a good question...

And once it happened they USED IT to market the wars they wanted.

Either way... it's still treasson
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
111. "Shock and awe" on Baghdad was very successful.
The so-called "major combat operations" were exemplary.

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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
115. Good heavens, why do want to stir up the Mihop buffoons?
Expect to get at least half a dozen ranty long incoherent PMs from people with far too much free time on their hands.
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
116. I don't agree that the Bushies really cared about winning in Iraq. Where as
9/11 had to be done with more care toward keeping the truth from coming out. They did about as good as they could on 9/11, but it wasn't good enough.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
117. Nope.... wrong. BushCo Most of What They Wanted
Edited on Thu May-29-08 04:50 PM by fascisthunter
In fact they almost got all.... why? Because people just treat people like idiots to feel better about themselves and to fool themselves that an adversary is weaker than they are. Bad move....
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
118. I don't know - They are experts at destroying things
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
119. Absolutely agree! n/t
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
121. Greed, Ignorance, Fantasy
Edited on Thu May-29-08 04:55 PM by Mimosa
The neo-conmen had watched Patton and The Longest Day too many times. They thought the Iraqis would welcome being 'freed.' Their ignorance of the history, cultures, and factions was vast. They imagined the unemployed Iraqi Army would have something to do?

The Bushies apparently know nothing about economics. All they did know was that the American contractors would make oodles of money. That alone turned out to be true.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
122. I never thought that the idiots masterminded it; I think they let it happen,
when they could have prevented it.
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
123. The coverup smacks of complicity
-an invasion by supposed Arabs in broad daylight did not merit even a normal investigation? Lame physics ignorant explanations kept changing.

Also: this administration has been successful in every mission it set out to complete. The feigned idiocy of monkey in chief is just a distraction.
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