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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:11 PM
Original message
Poll question: Do you believe we (the U.S.) are guilty of ...
...genocide in Iraq?

And secondly, do you believe we (the U.S.) are guilty of major war crimes in Iraq?

------------------------

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/02/9363/

---snip---

On Sep. 14, 2007, Opinion Research Business (ORB), an independent polling agency located in London, produced a figure of 1,220,580 deaths as a result of the invasion.

These estimates are above any official figures from Iraq, but they do consider the reported official figures.

Iraqis believe that the authorities are hiding these figures. “The U.S. military benefits from hiding the real totals,” said a political analyst who declined to give his name because of the atmosphere of fear within Iraq. “And the Iraqi government is a puppet of the Americans, so their figures are ridiculously low as well.”

The report published in The Lancet did not take into account many circumstances of death, say residents in Baquba, capital of Diyala province 40km north of capital Baghdad.




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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. "we" not guilty of anything - bushco, Us military and those who vote to fund the war? yes nt
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I understand your point.
My question wasn't meant to indict everybody and their Aunt Mildred. However, as citizens of the U.S. we cannot, nor should we attempt to, escape/shirk responsibility for what our government does in our name.

We have a duty to "throw off" a government so systemically corrupt and overtly criminal in their behavior that they no longer even remotely represent us (the citizenry).

We now have such a government -- the question is: what are we going to do about it?

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El Pinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. We also have a duty to be informed when going to the ballot box...
...however, millions of us think that watching 10 minutes of MSNBC or Fox every night is enough to "get the gist" of what's going on, and then vote accordingly.

As long as most information comes through corporate entities that are in bed with the same corporations that bribe our politicians into keeping the military-industrial complex going full-speed, people will continue to vote for the same old crooks.

I guess what I'm saying is that you are blaming the people who are in the Matrix for the crimes of the robots who are using their bodies for fuel. They don't even realize that they're in the Matrix. They actually think "The News" is the news!
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I don't assign direct blame...
...to the citizenry, I do feel that we cannot rightly escape, at least in part, some responsibility for what our country does in our name.

I agree that we have a duty to be informed, and also that millions of us are deliberately misinformed/propagandized by corporate media.

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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
44. American Complicity
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. "We" are guilty of failure to impeach/prosecute...
...war criminals, as per our treaty obligations.

The American People were put "on the hook" on Jan. 3, 2006 -- when the Dems took the majority, and thus the resposibilty to act as "The US Gov't." This was the first time since Jan 6, 2001 that non-conspirators actually held both the proper "consent of the governed" and a mechanism by which to act effectively to stop the ongoing torture and war crimes.

But of course this is in a strictly legal, political, historical sense -- not a moral one.

---
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
41. When did you stop paying taxes?
If you paid one nickel to the government, some percentage when to some munitions that killed a civilian.

We are ALL responsible. Every last one of us.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Your Second Option Is The Correct One, Sir
The criteria for genocide by U.S. forces are far from met. Various Iraqi groups have certainly engaged in 'ethnic cleansing', and some have probably carried out local actions could meet legal definitions of genocide. None of these groups meets legal definitions of being a U.S. agency, under a recent ruling by the Tribunal for Yugoslavia regarding charges the Serbian government was liable for genocidal acts by Bosnian Serb bodies.

It is beyond serious argument that the U.S. government has engaged in torture of prisoners on a routine and wholesale basis, and that the directives for these actions originated at the highest levels of the Executive branch. This a grave beach of international law (and our own Federal law, for that matter), and certainly constitutes a major war crime.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I think we have met the requirements for genocide...
...in Iraq, and did so even before the invasion via the 7 plus years of sanctions:

Genocide by sanctions (1 of 2): http://youtube.com/watch?v=cNdxX1x6I_4

Genocide by sanctions (2 of 2): http://youtube.com/watch?v=HScFCWD_1Gk&feature=related

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Neither Come Close, Sir
The element of intent is absent in the sanctions, for one thing. For another, the responsibility for deaths traceable to the sanctions lies at the door of the government of Iraq, which caused them in two ways, first by not complying with binding directives of the United Nations, and second by the choices it made in allocations of what resources were available; these were in many instances deliberately designed to increase suffering among its people to gain propaganda advantage. Finally, the sanctions were international law, being binding Security Council resolutions. There is no mechanism or legal theory by which an action of the Security Council can be ruled a violation of international law: it is rather akin to saying a Supreme Court ruling violates the Constitution.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. While I do think the element of intent would be...
Edited on Mon Jun-02-08 11:20 PM by Mr_Jefferson_24
...the most difficult one to prove, I don't believe it is absent. To make such a claim is to suggest that the people spearheading such policies were oblivious to the death and suffering on such a large scale that the sanctions were causing. This went on for over 7 years.

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. You probably have a point there, but ultimately, there may not be enough physical evidence to prove.
If we're talking about whether the US is legally guilty of perpetrating genocide, the burden of proof rests with the plaintiff. The evidence would have to be beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Your comment raises an interesting question...
Edited on Tue Jun-03-08 12:04 AM by Mr_Jefferson_24
...and that is, at what point, if any, in formal international hearings would the burden of proof as to "intent" shift to the accused?

It seems reasonable to me that once it was established that the sanctions imposed were having the horrific effect that they were, and that the accused (those within the U.S. government who authorized/spearheaded these policies) had full knowledge and continued with the sanctions anyway, that the burden of proof as to "intent" could be rightly shifted to the accused. This may, however, be a far cry from how an international court would operate.

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Well, the problem is the sanctions were approved by the Security Council.
As Magistrate pointed out, it would be akin to saying the Supreme Court violated the Constitution. At the time the sanctions were imposed, after the First Gulf War, there was no debate at the time as to whether it would have a devastating consequence on the civilian population.

The sanctions remained in place due to the fault of the Iraqi government's intransigence. The Iraqi government was fully aware of the conditions by which the sanctions would expire. They did not meet those conditions.

The civilian deaths resulting from the sanctions would be on the shoulders of Saddam and his apparatchiks, as a result.

If you asked me if the sanctions should have been removed after seeing that many civilians were dying of malnutrition, I would have said yes for the sake of humanity even if Saddam's regime did not comply with relevant UN sanctions, but hindsight is 20/20 after all. I would've replaced them with more targeted smart sanctions to freeze their bank assets and prevent members of Saddam's government from traveling abroad and targeted dual use technology.

The US sits on the Security Council, but it is not the Security Council. If the burden of proof did shift to the accused, that would mean the five permanent members of the Security Council as well as all other nations on the Council at the time the sanctions were approved would have to defend themselves.

As far as the invasion in 2003 goes, there were 4 counts brought against high ranking Nazi government officials and military officers at the Nuremberg Trials after the end of World War 2. They were

1. Conspiracy to wage aggressive war.
2. Waging aggressive war (or "Crimes against the Peace").
3. War crimes (torture of POWs, execution of POWs, forced labor, etc.).
4. Crimes against humanity (Auschwitz and the Jews, for example).

By my reckoning, several American government officials and probably several high ranking officers within the Pentagon are guilty of at the very least two of the indictments in no particular order.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. Yes, the U.N. Security Council's role does complicate...
...any legal proceeding against the U.S. where the sanctions are concerned.

That said, we were clearly the driving force behind the imposition of the sanctions, knew the horrific results they were having, and made no effort to get them lifted for 7 years. While hiding behind the legitimacy of the U.N. may place the U.S. out of legal reach, I don't think it alleviates our moral responsibility for what happened.

I'd love to see indictments for war crimes handed out on a few Pentagon and Administration higher ups on the 2003 invasion.
I'll keep my fingers crossed.

As always, your enlightening and informed responses are appreciated.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. The element of "intent"
has a very nebulous definition. Sometimes in criminal law "intent" is only required for the "underlying" crime. For example, if I rob a bank and a pedestrian is killed by my get-away car, under law I am guilty of murder because my "criminal intent" was established when I chose to rob the bank. It is legally irrelevant in such a case whether or not I planned to kill the pedestrian. America demonstrated "criminal intent" when we committed the "underlying" crime of illegally invading and occupying Iraq. If the outcome is genocide then we are in fact guilty of it.

May I also point out that in every traditional system of morality "intent" is not the determinant of moral responsibility. Moral responsibility is contingent instead on knowable outcomes. If the massive death, destruction and dislocation of the war were knowable beforehand then we bear moral responsibility for it. We can't escape that with legal semantics about the definition of "intent."
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #25
42. Several Points, Sir
Actual ruling by courts on the application of international law concerning genocide, most noteably those of the Tribunal on Yugoslavia, do not follow the line you have suggested. Convictions of charges of genocide have occurred only when the crime has been a mass killing of the 'line them up before a ditch' style, and when official documents have clearly stated exterminationist intent. The doctrine of 'felony murder' you are appealing to, which is an element of some countries' internal criminal law, does not exist in international law. Even in the trials of Axis officials and soldiers after World War Two, the charge of waging aggressive war was always a seperate element, and no one was charged with a criminal act on the grounds that the act took place in the context of a war of aggression.

A great many of the killings which have occurred since the U.S. invasion of Iraq, have been committed by Iraqis, not by the U.S. forces. These killings by various Iraqi militia bodies are the only killings for which an exterminationist intent might be proved, by statements of the forces involved themselves, and are the only ones which match the actual pattern of killing which has been recognized as genocidal by actual courts of international law. None of these bodies would be considered agents of the U.S., acting on its behest, under current rulings by international courts in actual cases, and many of them, such as the various Sunni militias outside the Salvationist fronts, and the Saderist militias, are openly hostile to the United States. No conceivable legal theory could fasten responsibility for their actions on U.S. authorities.

'Moral responsibility', whatever that may be, is wholly seperate from legal culpability, and quite beside the point of determining whether a crime has occurred, and whether or not, if it has, someone would be liable to conviction for that crime. Genocide is the gravest of crimes in international law, and to water it down by sloppy emotionalizing does a tremendous dis-service to the structure of international law, tending to bring it into disrepute as a mere propagandist's bludgeon. It is possible to show quite clearly, in a manner that even citizens of the U.S. would have difficulty refusing to acknowledge as accurate, that the U.S. government has indeed committed grave breaches of international law regarding the treatment of prisoners. It might be possible to show that certain elements of the rules under which U.S. forces have engaged in Iraq have resulted in incidents of criminal behavior by U.S. forces in a similarly clear and compelling manner. The larger charge, however, is quite out of reach, both legally and politically. Every wrong does not have to be the worst thing in the world to be energetically condemned.

"Once you have gilded it, it no longer is a lily."
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. We are not bound by international law prohibiting Genocide.
Edited on Tue Jun-03-08 12:27 PM by Wizard777
But we are bound by US law that prohibits genocide. The two laws are very simular. But not exactly the same. The US law places stautes of limitations on the prosecution of some forms of genocide that aren't present in the international law.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. I realize "moral responsibility" is beside the point
when discussing strict international legalisms. I was making the point as an aside. It seems some people (not necessarily you) have adopted the position that if the strict legal definition of "genocide" cannot be met that America is therefore not responsible for the genocidal outcome in Iraq when in fact we are.

Beyond the treatment of prisoners, other areas in which our policies have led to such outcomes include, but are not limited to, the indiscriminate bombing of crowded urban areas (i.e. Fallujah), the use of areal bombardment against civilian areas without adequate ground intelligence, the support and funding of security forces which we know operate as death squads, the walling off or partitioning of neighborhoods in ways that dislocate large numbers of people, the deliberate destruction or complicit neglect of civilian infrastructure, the failure to adequately provide minimum survival standards to refugees, the use of blockades and sanctions that resulted in the deaths of huge numbers of innocent civilians, etc., etc. The outcome of the combined use of these tactics has been genocidal. That outcome was wholly predictable.

The law, even international law, is an ever evolving instrument. The current definitions of crimes like genocide emerged from the aftermath of WWII. There is no reason new definitions couldn't or shouldn't emerge in the aftermath of the current outrages against humanity underway in Iraq.

I'm sorry you think these arguments amount to "sloppy emotionalizing." Some might find that yours amount to "rigid callousness." Personally, I'm more comfortable with the former.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. You May Call Me Callous If You Wish, Sir
Deep study of history does tend to produce them....
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
43. There are many who disagree with your assignment of responsibility
for suffering in Iraq as a result of the sanctions. There are also questions about the legality of targeting civilians with sanctions in the first place.

1. Introduction The United Nations Security Council has maintained compre-hensive economic sanctions on Iraq since August 6, 1990. The international community increasingly views the sanctions as illegitimate and punitive, because of well-documented humanitarian suffering in Iraq and widespread doubts about the sanctions’ effectiveness and their legal basis under international humanitarian and human rights law.

2. A Flawed Policy In the early 1990s, many policy makers saw comprehensive economic sanctions, imposed under Resolution 687, as an ethical and non-violent policy tool. Though Iraq sanctions produced some significant disarmament results, they failed to achieve all their policy goals and they have deeply harmed powerless and vulnerable Iraqi citizens. The Security Council implicitly accepts such a negative assessment, since it no longer uses comprehensive economic sanctions in other security crises.

3. Warnings of Civilian Harm Civilian suffering in Iraq is not an unexpected collateral effect, but a predictable result of the sanctions policy. Security Council members have received warnings of the humanitarian emergency in Iraq and the damage done by sanctions since shortly after the Gulf War. Warnings have come from three Secretary Generals, many UN officials and agencies including UNICEF, WHO and WFP, and two Humanitarian Coordinators who have resigned in protest. A Select Committee of the UK House of Commons offered a very negative judgment as well.

4. Causes of Suffering Sanctions are not the sole cause of human suffering in Iraq. The government of Iraq bears a heavy burden of responsibility due to the wars it has started, its lack of cooperation with the Security Council, its domestic repression, and its failure to use limited resources fairly. However, the UN Security Council shares responsibility for the humanitarian crisis. The United States and the United Kingdom, who use their veto power to prolong the sanctions, bear special responsibility for the UN action. No-fly zones, periodic military attacks, and threats of regime-change block peaceful outcomes, as do vilification of Saddam Hussein, pro-sanctions propaganda, and other politicization of the crisis. Though real concerns about Iraq’s security threat undoubtedly are legitimate, commercial interests, especially control over Iraq’s oil resources, appear to be a driving force behind much of the policy making.

<http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cahier/irak/savethechildren2002>


A grave and systematic violation of human rights and fundamental freedoms is being carried out against the entire population of Iraq, in form and dimensions without precedent. The most basic right, the right to life, is being denied in fact to 18 million people by the continuation of the sanctions policy, implemented through the United Nations Security Council. That such a policy be carried out on the basis of decisions made by a U.N. organ is unprecedented in the history of the U.N., as it involves a total boycott, following the deliberate destruction of Iraq's infrastructure. A further special feature of this case is that the violation is being carried out not by a national government, but by an intergovernmental body against the population of a member state of the U.N.

The International Progress Organization (I.P.O.) presents this memorandum within the framework of resolution 1235 (XLII) of the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations (1479th plenary meeting, 6 June 1967) on the Question of the violation of human rights and fundamental freedoms ... in all countries. The most egregious example of violation of human rights and fundamental freedoms committed through the sanctions policy against Iraq is constituted by the fact that the population is being deprived of food, water and medicine required to keep it alive. According to the July 1991 report issued by the inter-agency task force led by the U.N. Secretary General’s Executive Delegate, Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan, and composed of experts from UNICEF, WHO, FAO, WFP, UNHCR, UNDP and others, "the impact of the sanctions had been, and remains, very substantial on the economy and living conditions of its civilian population." Specifically, the report details that "damage to water treatment plants and the inability to obtain needed spare parts have cut off an estimated two and one half million Iraqis from the government system they relied upon before the war." Those who still receive water "are now provided on average with 1/4 the pre-war amount per day," much of it "of doubtful quality." As a result of the destruction of the sewage system, "raw sewage (is) now flowing in some city streets and into the rivers. Diarrhoeal diseases, thought to be caused by water and sewage problems, are now at four times the level of a year ago. The country is already experiencing outbreaks of typhoid and cholera."

Due to the lack of supplies, electricity, water and medicines, according to the same report, the health system is hamstrung. Iraq used to import up to $500 million a year for medicines and medical supplies, which it has not been able to receive since August 1990 due to the embargo. The report stresses that, since humanitarian agencies lack the financial means to meet this demand, "mechanisms need to be urgently established for the country to procure its own medical supplies and to maintain its equipment in operation. Failing this, the health situation will further worsen."

<http://www.i-p-o.org/un-sanctions-iraq.htm>


Economic sanctions are rapidly becoming one of the major tools of international governance of the post-Cold War era. The UN Security Council, empowered under Article 16 of the UN Charter to use economic measures to address "threats of aggression" and "breaches of peace," approved partial or comprehensive sanctions on only two occasions from 1945 to 1990. By contrast, since 1990 the Security Council has imposed sanctions on eleven nations, including the former Yugoslavia, Libya, Somalia, Liberia, Haiti, and several other nations. However, the U.S. has imposed sanctions, unilaterally or with other nations, far more frequently than any other nation in the world, or any multinational body in the world, including the United Nations. More than two-thirds of the sixty-plus sanctions cases between 1945 were initiated and maintained by the United States, and three-quarters of these cases involved unilateral U.S. action without significant participation by other countries.(1) Thus, while the question of ethical legitimacy has implications for the UN strategies of international governance, it has far greater implications for the U.S., which uses sanctions more frequently and in many more contexts, from trade regimes and human rights enforcement to its efforts to maintain regional and global hegemony.

Sanctions seem to lend themselves well to international governance. They seem more substantial than mere diplomatic protests, yet they are politically less problematic, and less costly, than military incursions. They are often discussed as though they were a mild sort of punishment, not an act of aggression of the kind that has actual human costs. Consequently, sanctions have for the most part avoided the scrutiny that military actions would face, in the domains of both politics and ethics.

The sanctions against Iraq, and the massive, long-term human suffering they have inflicted, have undermined this common view of sanctions. Since 1991, international agencies have documented Iraq's explosion in child mortality rates, water-borne diseases from untreated water supplies, malnutrition in large sectors of the population, and on and on. The most reliable estimate holds that 237,000 Iraqi children under five are dead as a result of sanctions, with other estimates going as high as one million.(2) The deaths from sanctions are far greater than the number of Iraqis directly killed in the Persian Gulf War -- an estimated 40,000 casualties, both military and civilian.(3) But the sanctions are shocking not only because of the extent of the human damage, but also because the suffering has been borne primarily by women, children, the elderly, the sick, and the poor; the state and the wealthy classes seem to be inconvenienced, but are otherwise exempt from extreme hardship.

The situation in Iraq compels us to reexamine the moral basis of economic sanctions. Because it is now clear that sanctions can do fully as much human damage as warfare, it seems to me critical that we begin applying a higher level of scrutiny than has been the case since the end of World War I. Furthermore, because sanctions are themselves a form of violence, I would argue that they cannot legitimately be seen merely as a peacekeeping device, or as a tool for enforcing international law. Rather, I will suggest, they require the same level of justification as other acts of warfare. Thus, in this essay, I will look at principles of Just War Doctrine, applicable in the case of Iraq, but I will also look at Just War Doctrine as it applies to sanctions generally, even where the human consequences are less extreme than those in Iraq.

<http://www.crosscurrents.org/gordon.htm>

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. No, because neither the intent nor the effect has been to eliminate
every Iraqi from the face of the earth.

What we have is mass murder. It's a war crime. It is not genocide.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Would you accept ...
...any of these, the Holocaust, Rwanda, the Cambodian "killing fields," or what the early European settlers did to native Americans as genocides?

If so, which ones? And how would you establish intent?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. The holocaust was intentional genocide of Jews, Gypsies
socialists, trade unionists, gays, "defectives," and anyone else they considered less than perfect.

Rwanda was intentional genocide of the Tutsi tribe.

Part of the Indian Wars could be counted as attempted genocide, especially in the plains states. Most of the killing was done by microbes before the army got there.

Cambodia wasn't genocide, just mass murder on a large scale. Pol Pot never intended to remove his people from the face of the earth, only to shock them into a social order to create Utopia.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. And how do we establish intent?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Usually, you have to find documents of "pogroms" to eliminate or attack a population based on...
things such as religion, color, culture, etc. That's a form of evidence that would be considered concrete right there. Eyewitness testimony would help as well. The documents would show a clear and concerted effort to perform an activity that legally meets the definition of genocide. This is what brought down many Nazi officials and officers.

Article 2 of the Geneva Conventions defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. Thank you.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. You are just being silly now.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. How is the question of establishing intent silly?
Edited on Tue Jun-03-08 01:59 AM by Mr_Jefferson_24
A million plus Iraqi children die as a result of sanctions, a million plus more civilians as a result of our invasion/occupation, and several million more displaced.

You say it's not genocide because there's no intent. I presume you must be an expert on establishing intent.

At the risk of being silly, I invite you to please share your expertise.


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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. The Holocaust, Rwanda, and the Indian situations were all genocides.
There was a stated attempt by the offending parties to wipe out the targetted groups. Cambodia was simply mass slaughter.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Well, we can quibble over semantics, but a million dead people is a million dead people.
Whatever you call it, it just ain't right.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Genocide is a deliberate and intentional act.
Constant and sustained warfare in urban areas will ultimately result in large scale civilian deaths. Many, and I believe most, have been committed by Iraqis against each other.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
37. You appear to be in deep denial about...
...what's been going on in Iraq for the last 5 years.

Constant sustained warefare? How 'bout constant sustained slaughter -- maybe you should read about Falluja from someone who was there.

http://ftssoldier.blogspot.com/2004/11/holiday-in-falluja_19.html
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El Pinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. No, George Bush & Co. are guilty of war crimes and genocide. "WE" had no say in the matter.
The United States is not a democracy. "WE" had no choice in the matter - in fact millions of us stood up and said NO to this war, and those who supported it were totally brainwashed by our propaganda-apparatus media.

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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. You make essentially the same point as...
...Msongs (see post #1). Please see my response (post #2).
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yes guilty of all charges
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. War crimes yes, genocide no
4 million orphans, hundreds of thousands dead, millions of refugees, the use of torture. These are war crimes. In the grand scheme they are not the worst crimes on earth (Myanmar, Sudan & N Korea are far worse) but they are still massive crimes against humanity.

I don't see how we committed genocide though. I seriously doubt the US intentionally targets any civilian group for death. That is my understanding of genocide, intentionally targeting civilians due to certain traits. We haven't done that as far as I know.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. The international definition of genocide...
Edited on Mon Jun-02-08 10:56 PM by Mr_Jefferson_24
...does indeed identify intent as a key part of fulfilling the requirements for genocide -- and I would think that would surely be the most difficult element to prove.

The international definition of genocide:

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Intent is absent for the sole reason that there has been no appreciable
application of the full power of the United States for the purpose of exterminating the Iraqi population at large or even in ethnic subsets. By no standard can I say it has. If the goal of the United States was the extermination of the Iraqi people, even by conventional means, the Iraqi people would have long ago been exterminated. I made this same argument when people screamed "genocide" at Israel in Lebanon.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. The international definition of genocide...
...does not specify the "appreciable application of the full power" of the offending party as a requirement for satisfying the conditions for genocide.

Here's the international definition:

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)
"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a crime to plan or incite genocide, even before killing starts, and to aid or abet genocide: Criminal acts include conspiracy, direct and public incitement, attempts to commit genocide, and complicity in genocide.
Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:

Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.

Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.

Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.

The law protects four groups - national, ethnical, racial or religious groups.

A national group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by a common country of nationality or national origin.

An ethnical group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common cultural traditions, language or heritage.

A racial group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by physical characteristics.

A religious group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common religious creeds, beliefs, doctrines, practices, or rituals.

Key Terms

The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. “Intentional” means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts.

Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.



Source: http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm




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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. My point is that you can easily infer a lack of intent from the lack of power applied
to such an endeavor.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. I would say intent could be inferred from...
... "a systematic pattern of coordinated acts" that has resulted over a million Iraqi civilian deaths and millions more displaced.

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
16. Will the freeper please raise its' hand.
Gotta be one seriously stupid shit to think we're not at the very least committing massive war crimes in Iraq. Especially as the bush regime's invasion of Iraq was, in fact, illegal...which makes it a war crime in itself.

How the hell does anyone remain so bloody ignorant???
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
26. The deaths of 100s of 1000s, yes. Genocide, no

There's a difference in quality, not in numbers. Nevertheless, Saddam was hung for less. Saddam had his Guantanamo. And his disappeared and his secret prison ships. He had his show trials too.

This isn't a matter decided by opinion, by opinion polls. It's matter of fact.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. The international defintion of genocide does not...
...identify any numerical death count quota in order to satisfy the requirements for genocide.

Please see post #28
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. That makes my point rather nicely. Without intent there is no genocide.
It is similar to how a drunk driver who kills three pedestrians is not a serial murderer.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. Bush's rant to the Generals "we'll kill them" can be used to form specif intent.
Edited on Tue Jun-03-08 12:33 PM by Wizard777
Killing people can be part of achieving a military objective. But is not a military objective in and of it's self. In veitnam. The Pentagons cries of body count! Body count! Body count! Can form specific intent of genocide.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
39. Holy Shite, 6 deeply ignorant idiots!
That must be George W. bUsh's base.

:rofl:

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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
45. YES ... we are ALL guilty
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
50. Absolutely!
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