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I won't salute the flag, or stand during the anthem, am I unpatriotic?

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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:28 PM
Original message
I won't salute the flag, or stand during the anthem, am I unpatriotic?
I absolutely refuse to bow my head in public prayer, pledge allegiance to or salute the flag, I won't stand during the national anthem, and I refuse to wear a Chinese made flag lapel pin. Am I less deserving of America's grace? Should I leave it? Just because I don't get teary eyed or goose bumpy at the sight of the flag wafting in the breeze, is there something deeply wrong with me?

Now, when I hear Ray Charles singing 'America the beautiful', I do indeed get all teary-eyed, is there hope for me?
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. you nothing to lose but your chains, comrade!
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Since you fully appreciate Ray's "America," you better believe there's hope for you.
If that rendition doesn't move you, you are John W. McMore.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. what's this all about?
When I was a kid, people sported "God bless John Wayne" and "America, Love it or Leave it" bumper stickers during the vietnam war. These stickers were used by people who were safe from a draft, or were using 5 deferments, or goofing off in the texas Air national guard.

symbols are only symbols. A wedding ring means nothing if you break the vows every chance you get.

A flag is only so much fabric.
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LucyParsons Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. I am with you
Patriotism and nationalism are two different things.

:hi:
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nah that stuff is all superficial bullshit
But if you don't get all blubbery at the wisdom of the people who devised this form of government you're a fucking idiot.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. Exactly. the USA is a proven failure. It's only a matter of time before we are taken over.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Only a matter of time?
How many parts in our computers were made in China? Our cars? Toys? Clothes? et al.

Maybe we need to re-evaluate the criteria for what it means to be "taken over."
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #38
49. Ah but that's not all. Investors should be buying up all these foreclosed homes.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #38
51. LMAO Swampy! You crack me up
You know that anvil wouldn't even make a dent in that thick skull!
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Morrisons Ghost Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. Why
Do you think that? I'd really like to know. Flawed? Yes Failure? Doesn't the fact that you can make a statement as you just did and not have any negative repercussions kind of prove that it works to a degree? Peace!
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edbermac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Saluting the flag doesn't mean you are saluting Bush.
:patriot:
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Morrisons Ghost Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
44. Yes
Exactly! I don't equate love and respect for ones country as love for Bush!:toast:
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. All you ever have to do to be a Patriot is to defend The Constitution.
  Everything else is window-dressing and distraction.

PB
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WHEN CRABS ROAR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. Your just another speck of life living in this universe, what does it
Matter?
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I just want to make a good impression to the other insignificant specks of life.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. I like steak
and I stand at the meat counter. So yes, you're unpatriotic.

:spank:
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Do you salute a sirloin? Do you get weepy when it's over cooked?
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. I salute the sirloin, and there is nothing worse in the world than an
overcooked steak!
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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
41. Not a sirloin,
but angels cry every time someone puts cheddar cheese on a pizza and my wife overcooks a T-bone.
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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. No. You understand that true patriotism has nothing to do with these things.
I gave up the pledge for good decades ago when I began to see it as a holdover from the McCarthy era.

I haven't displayed a flag or sang the anthem since December 2000. I hope to proudly do these things once again after January 2009.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Patriotism & faith should be private things
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. Are you a Mexican high school student?
The Mexican kids at the school I work in refuse to
participate in the pledge of allegiance every morning...
They will stand, but not place their hands over their hearts
or join in saying the pledge.
I think it is their way of protesting the fact that
the land used to belong to Mexico.

BHN
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. Nah, you're fine... I think....
The only thing I wonder about is why you would not stand during the anthem at a ball game like everyone else does? I stand because it is a social gathering and I want to show some willingness to take part in something.

It's an honest question. Do you think the rest of us are automatons, trying to make a statement, conserving your physical energy, want to see others' reactions, or what.... Just curious.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I've never been to a baseball game.
And I'm in a wheelchair. But I wouldn't stand anyway, and I'd be tickled pink if anybody gave me any shit about it.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I'm not trying to make any trouble...
I've only been to a few sporting events in my life.

Wheelchair aside, I'm just wondering why you would not stand if you could. In protest? That's fair.

I would never get angry at anyone about it, but I feel as though some might be doing it to annoy us on purpose, which really makes us the target of this rhetorical 'shit'.

It's just legitimate curiosity on my part. I think I can empathize, since I think people who hoot and holler at games are acting like idiots, and I just don't do it. But I acknowledge that I think they are acting like idiots. So I'm wondering if that's your perception too? Or do you think it's in protest?
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. I just don't care for public displays of nationalism at games.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Thanks for clearing that up
That makes perfect sense, it totally eluded me. As long as you don't think everyone else is a chump for having fun in their own way.

Like I said I have only gone to a couple major sporting events, and never watch them either, so I lack common sense sometimes.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. I never stand or sing or pledge at games
and here in the south we have the added bonus of nuckleheads saying/screaming "AMEN" at the end of the pledge!

:puke:
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Riddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. Until we get our country back from the fascist pigs who hijacked it, I agree.
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
18. I don't wear flag pins or salute the flag currently
But you'll often find me wearing my US Constitution pin:

http://www.pinsforpatriots.com/constitution-goldplated.html

One is the refuge of scoundrels, the other embodies our highest values.
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. If you can hear Ray Charles, you are in trouble...
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
22. Simple Test: The Constitution, a) Founding document worthy of respect and admiration or
b)Goddamn piece of paper

If you chose:
A) You are a patriot

B) You are not a patriot.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. Same here.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
24. I get worried about a big display of nationalism. I don't mind being proud of my country but I am
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 03:09 PM by Mountainman
not proud today. I was in the past. I hope to be in the future. Nationalism brings about war. I didn't fight in Vietnam to protect anyone's rights or freedom or for the flag. I fought to survive my tour. If I can be proud of my country again in the future I won't mind saluting the flag or standing for the national anthem.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
25. Not at all!
Now, when I hear Ray Charles singing 'America the beautiful', I do indeed get all teary-eyed, is there hope for me?

For me the ticket is Jimi Hendrix's version of The Star Spangled Banner.
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Brigid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. If you consider these to be just empty gestures, then no.
I stand during the national anthem but don't get teary-eyed, don't wear a flag pin, and remain silent during the pledge of allegiance. To me, the usual displays of "patriotism" just don't wash -- not while the Bush regime is still in power. Don't forget -- there's a big difference between patriotism and nationalism. I say wait until November and commit a real act of patriotism: voting for Barack Obama.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
29. Be patriotic, don't engage in Displays of patriotism.
There is a difference between Being something, and simply joining in displays of something.
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
30. I stand, but that's all
The only reason I do that is to avoid the inevitable argument, which would detract from the ball game or council meeting or whatever.



A person gets from a symbol the meaning he puts into it, and what is one man’s comfort and inspiration is another’s jest and scorn.

—W. Va. Board of Education vs. Barnette (1943); decision written by Justice Robert Jackson, who was later the chief U.S. prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials.

Jackson began with Frankfurter’s designation of the flag as a national symbol. He did not question Frankfurter’s designation of the flag as a national symbol; instead, he criticized the pedestal on which Frankfurter put such national symbols. Jackson derided symbols as a "primitive but effective way of communicating ideas..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_vs._Barnette
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. I won't do that either
Not for the American flag or anthem at least.

Used to be I had no problem with it- but over the past 8 years (especially) it's become a symbol of what my father's generation fought against.

Thus, it seems to me that I have a choice between honoring my father and his friends- or acquiescing in America über alles.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
32. Unpatriotic? No. Probably kind of a dick move to not stand up during the national anthem? Yes.
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 04:43 PM by Raskolnik
You might think you're making an incredibly brave stand (no pun intended) by not bowing your head in prayer or wearing a flag pin, but honestly, refusing to stand up during the national anthem? That's just bad manners masquerading as principle.

**to clarify--I'm talking about choosing to remain seated rather than stand, not simply remaining in one's wheelchair**
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
34. You're an Evildoer!
Either that or a program-related evildoer.
Or a quasi-Evildoer.
Or is it a quasi program-related evildoer sympathizer?

*sigh*

Do I hate you or not?
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LiberalPersona Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
35. No
The only thing a patriot must salute is the Constitution.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
36. Yes, you are unpatriotic.
You have the right to be unpatriotic, of course.
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papapi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
39. Patriotism is something you feel, not something you wear on your sleeve....
... do what you think feels right not what you think others expect of you. If I were in a room filled with repugs touting ways to destroy this country I wouldn't stand up if the anthem started to play.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
40. I don't do any of those things either.
I've never pretended to be Patriotic. The whole concept of patriotism leaves me cold. The kinder, gentler, supposedly, nationalism.

So of course, I don't find anything wrong with you, lol.

I'm matriotic. I love my planet.
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TooRaLoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
42. I stand if everyone else does, but that's it.
Pageantry is for stages.
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
43. Yeah, you're unpatriotic, but so am I.
It's cool. We can go be awesome internationalists together. :D
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
46. We've told our young daughter she needn't recite the pledge of "allegiance" in school
If you teach them how indoctrination works from an early age, the corporate/state nexus can't "win hearts and minds."
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
47. empty gestures
The question is would you defend America if she were attacked. All else is window-dressing.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
48. Sure there's hope. You have a conscience and need to feel
good about your actions. I stand at the pledge of allegiance but I haven't flown the flag at my house since we quit the constitution. My vow is to fly it the day the constitution is restored along with a yard sign reading "Constitution restored". The question is, will that day come?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
50. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer
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