I do not worship at the feet of Dennis Kucinich

I don't think he's the ONLY Democratic leader worth a damn. I don't think he's the ONLY one with scruples. I don't think he's comparable to Ghandi. I don't think he should be a "saint".

I respect a lot of what he does. But I have serious trust issues with him because of his historical (not current) votes on women's issues. I have issues with the timing of this impeachment attempt. I have issues with his ability to move issues forward in a bipartisan manner. I take issue with his vigilante-like all-or-nothing attitude.

It doesn't mean I am a Republican.
It doesn't mean I am a Bush supporter.
It doesn't mean that I don't want accountability.
It doesn't mean that I support war crimes.

It means that I think there are really important things that Congress needs to fix.

It means that I trust and respect the opinions of seasoned legislators like these:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-06-28-obama-impeachment_N.htm?csp=34

Obama: Impeachment is not acceptable

WASHINGTON (AP) — Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama laid out list of political shortcomings he sees in the Bush administration but said he opposes impeachment for either President George W. Bush or Vice President Dick Cheney.

Obama said he would not back such a move, although he has been distressed by the "loose ethical standards, the secrecy and incompetence" of a "variety of characters" in the administration.

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=7499

America needs to move forward again, and I don't believe that continuing this era of bitter partisanship is the best course of action. As I travel the country campaigning, I hear the call for a new direction and a change in our politics, a thirst for something more. I don't believe impeachment answers this call. I believe if we begin impeachment proceedings we will be engulfed in more of the politics that has made Washington dysfunctional. We would once again, rather than attending to the people's business, be engaged in a tit-for-tat, back-and-forth, non-stop circus.

Instead, I will continue to move forward with a positive agenda in the Senate and on the campaign trail. I hope you will stay involved and work for progress on the issues that matter most to you. Thank you again for writing.

http://feingold.senate.gov/opinion/07/20070616blog.htm
It is clear that there are many people in this country, including myself, who demand accountability from this Administration for the terrible mess it made in Iraq and its egregious and even illegal power grabs throughout its six-plus years in power. I believe that the President and Vice President may well have committed impeachable offenses. But with so many important issues facing this country and so much work to be done, I am concerned about the great deal of time multiple impeachment trials would take away from the Congress working on the problems of the country. The time it would take for the House to consider articles of impeachment, and for the Senate to conduct multiple trials, would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for Congress to do what it was elected to do – end the war and address some of the other terrible mistakes this Administration has made over the past six and a half years.

...

I fully respect the anger and frustration many Americans feel with this Administration. I share much of it. But on balance, I think Congress’s time is much better spent ending the war in Iraq, conducting the oversight that was absent for the last six years, and advancing progressive legislation.

UPDATE: I know that many of you disagree with my approach to this issue, but I thought it was important to make it clear where I’m coming from and explain why I am not calling for impeachment.

I certainly do believe in holding this Administration accountable and upholding the Constitution and the rule of law. That’s why last year I called for the President to be censured for his authorization of the illegal wiretapping program. I thought that was the appropriate course because it would have put the Senate on record in condemning the President’s wrongdoing. I still think that the censure resolution played an important role in focusing the public and the media’s attention on the issue. And I am working to make sure that Congress finally exercises its oversight responsibility by holding hearings and demanding information about the wiretapping program, the U.S. attorney firings and other abuses of power.

Many of you also wrote that if I recognize that the President and Vice President may have committed impeachable offenses, than it is our responsibility to impeach. As I pointed out, it is the role of the House to impeach, and it is the role of the Senate to try impeachments. But the Constitution left it up to the judgment of members of Congress whether or not moving forward with impeachment is best for the country.




So... there. Kucinich is not my hero. And that does NOT make me less of a Democrat despite what some of you say or think.

You will be labeled all that you claim not to be and DINO will be the nicest thing you will be called.

a leader can trash our constitution and country and just walk away from it. This administration is responsible for much loss of life, the current economic situation in the country and no one wants to hold them accountable with the exception of a very few.

Impeachment is part of how the system works. When it works.

But he gives nice speeches, so he is...

and that is just fine. Doesn't make you less of a Democrat. This Kucinich supporter has never said it would. :)

but I learned several months ago that any different or alternative positions were going to be met with disdain and ridicule. There is no middle ground, there is no difference of opinion. There is only the voice of the majority.

DU was never like this before this election - and I have been around since 2001. I hope the crazed partisans leave and DU returns to it's previous life.

I certainly respect your view toward Kucinich. Mine is different - but there is room for both views.

Impeachment isn't about liberal/conservative/Democrat/Republican. It's about maintaining the balance of power between Congress and the President.

He's a sitting Senator. If he's just fine with letting the President take whatever power he wants from Congress, maybe he shouldn't be President.

These past 8 years especially, have heavily eroded by trust in anyone in the press or the government. A lot of the bad stuff that has occurred has been simply outrageous and has left many of us seething with frustrated anger, yet the press and Congress is strangely accepting and docile. Why aren't they outraged as well? We can impeach a president and suspend the nations business for years over a lie about sex, but Bush gets a pass. This is Monty Python material. Absolutely absurd, but not funny at all. It's tragic.

Like I said, my trust has been shattered, and I can't help but wonder it the level of interconnectedness, entanglement, and downright dependence between the "good" guys and the "bad" guys has reached such a level that virtually everything is corrupt. How else to explain the seemingly total immunity this absolutely criminal administration has enjoyed? They do whatever the hell they want and get away with everything! All the time.

How else to explain the fact that rather than talk of justice, we hear "let's not dwell on the past", "it's time to move on", "we need to heal". Why is the Democratic leadership so goddamned conciliatory? My God, if the deeds of this administration are not worthy of receiving justice, just what the hell is? If this doesn't get their blood boiling what will?

The entanglement, dependence, and downright complicity is so pervasive that I think just about all of Congress is involved to one degree or another. I've lost a lot of my naivete and idealism and the best I can do right now is distrust some less than I distrust others.

that has me most concerned about the future of this republic! In many other countries millions and millions of citizens would be out on the streets demanding that leaders who committed such crimes step down immediately (and calling for trials as well! Although, I suspect that there's more below the surface and lots of folks are seething like me, at times I marvel at the seeming sense of normality in the midst of the vile acts, negligence, and crime perpetrated on the American people (and the Iraqi people as well) by this government! It also scares the shit out of me! I worry about the long-range implications of a government and people that do not provide severe consequences to government officials who commit such acts for restoring democracy.

Obama talks about regaining the trust and respect of the world. That's not possible unless we punish these war criminals for what they have done to America, the world, and our constitution.

You get used to it, along with the other leftier-than-thou DUers.

I actually agree with DK on this, but not like the rabid DUers who put down those who don't.

:rofl:

"Moonbeam McCrazypants"

"America has one political party with two right wings." ~ Gore Vidal

That many fail to comprehend or admit this explains a great deal of the division.

slaughter of millions of people for oil??

It's right out of the GOP playbook.

Thank you.

nor will I yield to crazy group think ether.

Be well, stand up for your convictions.

I am a tough cookie. ;)

:dunce: :shrug: Just sayin. That's pretty much been my understanding of how dysfunction works.

:hi:

Like I am a Repuke? Or that I support war crimes? That ALL other members of the House and Senate are "republican lite" (except for Dennis)?

"Like I am a Repuke? Or that I support war crimes?" - Part 2 of Straw Man

"That ALL other members of the House and Senate are "republican lite" (except for Dennis)?" - Part 3 of Straw Man+

That fucking "STRAW MAN" shit is so overused it means nothing.

:hi:

Nothing. I said *I* have issues with him and *I* have a right to disagree with him and it doesn't make *ME* less of a Dem.

Maybe you should read my OP again.

Come on, let's a see a list of people who "worship at the feet of Dennis Kucinich."

Let's see a list of people who say you "support war crimes."

Let's see a list of people who say, "ALL other members of the House and Senate are "republican lite" (except for Dennis)."

Btw, I should have included the Straw Man conclusion in the post above:

"It doesn't mean I am a Republican.
It doesn't mean I am a Bush supporter.
It doesn't mean that I don't want accountability.
It doesn't mean that I support war crimes."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This is the common end to Straw Man arguments.

Thank you. :)

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Thanks again. ;)

That is another common end to Straw Man arguments - slinging ad hominem because the argument was refuted and the arguer became frustrated and emotional.

You might wanna stick to words ya know. :hi:

Or for that matter even comprehend or understand, we would never get anything but blessed silence from you.

Instead your childish blather spews on, unabated.

Carry on.

he's courageous ;)

:yourock: Swamp Rat!! Great job!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

you wouldn't have far to kneel.

:D

Thanks for that.

:eyes:

He has a 100% Rating with NARAL..... NOW and has for the last 5 years!!

20 years ago, many Democrats didn't believe in Abortion rights!!

He's seen the light and changed his thinking and ways.

To bad you can't. :(

Which is fine - he's a politician. But people here pretend he's some enlightened avatar, ruled by the moral purity of the universal vibrations.

His last vote against Choice was in Feb '02 I believe. A year later he started voting PRO-Choice.

The record is clear. Look it up.

Expect perfection much?

People change, learn more, become more enlightened.

Even NARAL has forgiven him and saluted him in 2003 and every year since!

Why can't you?

At least he admitted he was wrong in his thinking between abortion and choice

and has changed his voting on that issue!

And kudos to you for comparing my political views to my parenting skills. I bet that dig felt super good. :thumbsup:

Oh, the irony... :)

Classic RW strategery.

Then do whatever it takes to fix this nation and bring the criminal bastards to justice.

:P

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

A real riot.

What's to say to THAT? No one did more to sabotage than Hillary, and now that her interest lies in pretending unity...

Er... how is that good? :crazy:

and I don't argue with people and call them names on this site. When you see where he came from, you can't help but admire this man for his humanity and courage. His book, "The Courage to Survive" was a real "Profile in Courage".

and all the other crimes that have committed. :wtf:

:rofl:

Dennis. I love the man. Time has this annoying habit of revealing Dennis was right about an issue. Hmmmm ... anyone remember Richardson calling for "an energy independence Apollo project" during the debates. (Kucinich, 2004 platform plank. Dennis has been saying this for years.) Kucinich voted against the so-called Patriot Act because he, uh, actually read it. Now, of course, we know what a boon to the land of the free it really is. :sarcasm:

I tend to agree with Obama on this point, but there are some potential and very practical benefits to an impeachment process right now. For example, if nothing else it would help force the administration's head down, making it less likely they will blunder us into another war. The work load and pressure of fending off impeachment may just keep them from creating even more mischief on the way out.

Second, at some point we have to drain the swamp. The Bushistas will leave behind lots of people in government positions who are unsavory. We're going to have to pressure them out/laterally promote them to positions where they can do no harm. Impeachment might be a pretty good way of getting that process going.

But there are serious down sides too ... it would take a lot of effort, and we have a lot of other thinks we have to get done fast. There are dangers to throwing gasoline on fires. Etc.

For all the affection and respect I have for Dennis, I do not worship him. This man is not really the executive type ... he is an idea man, and a man of principle. I get his limitations, but they in no way diminish the regard I have for him.

Which takes me back to ....

Heretic! Unclean!

A statesman can't get elected president. I'll support the decent enough politician who can.

None of us do, but we do see a man who stands on principle more than any other politician in the present. Also, as a Catholic, I understand why he would have been not pro-choice in the earlier part of his career. It takes us awhile to come around to the pro-choice position. But the fact that he can admit he was wrong speaks more to his character than not.

:D :9



¿Todo bien? :hi:

:hi: Me gusta mucho el chocolate!

Man, it just gets worse all the time.

BTW, we all have the right to say whatever we want within the rules here but if you don't want to be jumped on try saying stuff pleasantly or at least with some justification. I read your post/posts last night and they were a guarantee to inflame people. If you want a fight then fine, pick one but to come back today whining about it and casting the blame on others is pretty petty and sad.

if we wish to maintain any amount of freedom and democracy. Freedom and the Constitution: use it or lose it.

Gas is now averaging $4.50 in Los Angeles. It has been proven in the 2006 congressional election that these prices are fully under the control of BushCo, who temporarily lowered them for the election, then raised (and continue raising) them afterward. This is how they'll screw over any Democratic President in 2008+. Just like their buddies Enron did to Gray Davis (forcing him out of the California governorship). This is what they did to President Carter via the Iran hostage crisis and the subsequent Iran/Contra actions.

We must stop these people immediately and completely remove them from any ability to cause further harm, and then begin repairing the damage they've done, one law at a time, one international corporation at a time.

I don't see anyone else willing to take the required action which will return us to freedom. :shrug:

if it came before the Senate, if all evidence showed that Bu*h indisputably committed high crimes and misdemeanors?

It doesn't make you more liberal than me or I more liberal than you.

We can each have different opinions of how this should be handled and STILL both be Democrats.

i mostly applaud him for getting this into the congressional record....history will be re-written by many and his statements will be there for all time...untouched...

unequivocated

:shrug:

I think it might be simplistically stated that Kucinich on this issue stepped outside the herd mulling around a steep cliff and Obama is trying to lead the herd from within. The picture is miserable on the whole and has been for eight years. Girdlock makes all but partisan wrangling over impeachment impossible. The real victim is the impeachment clause itself, used disastrously and with impunity for political evil and avoided like the plague by the club for all real accountability.

isn't it nice to know there is an intact spine in the Congress?

when he didn't do his job and persue the iran/contra players. those same players that bill clinton allowed to walk scot free are the same players that brought you the illegal iraq war. that move forward shit is the cowards approach. those who don't learn from history can fucking fuck off.

And if one is in agreement with the constitution vs bush's crimes isn't worth it (impeachment), who does that person worship?

I support all who stand up and defend my rights. The matter of "worship" doesn't come into it.

Threads "nominating him for sainthood does". Threads comparing him to Ghandi does. Saying he's the ONLY member in ALL of Congress who's a real Dem does. Calling ALL other Dems (but him) "republican lite" does. Constantly accusing people who do not agree with DK of supporting war crimes and calling them republicans does.

See the difference?

I have been getting hammered today cause I think impeachment is a waste of time and resources at this point and distracts on more important issues.

Yesterday it came out that Abramoff met with Rove and there's solid evidence of influence peddling...Karl's troubles have gotten a lot deeper...but how many threads have we seen on DU about this?

Well...at least it's good to see something other than Obama/Hillary sniping around here for once...we're back to some of the old chestnuts in GD. This is a story that even Progressive/Liberal blogs like DKos, TPM and Atrios have all but ignored...but at least it's good fodder for GD.

The ultimate judges on this regime will be the American people. Most I talk to aren't concerned about impeachment as much as they are about the ability to stay financially afloat.

I have heard that Senator Obama will not impede investigations if he's elected and that with more Democrats in the House & Senate and Obama in the White House, this will give Conyers, Waxman and others far better leverage to crack open the many scandals that are currently being protected by executive privilidge and downright stonewalling.

Thank you for your post and clarification, but I think it still won't satify those who need an impeachment fix.

:toast:

You fail at life

If we don't impeach, we'll see all of these ghouls again in 4 years. Hell, we may see them still there after the elections.

Besides, we'll have given sanction to everything Bush has done in the last 8 years.

If we all vote to have the law not apply to the Republicans, I'm leaving the Democratic Party. That instant.

Obama and many other Dem leaders?

Hmm... my measure of success in life is is no way related to this discussion. But, see? You're demonstrating my point. You are very dillusional if you think you're qualified to judge the quality of my existence based on my opinion of these points.

See... it's YOU who fail if that's your measure of people.

All of the dead soldiers and Iraqis disagree with you, as well as all of the people starving right now because of the food and energy prices.

Obama and all the people who are talking about how there are more important things to do and how we must not act in a partisan fashion are telling the Monkey in the White House that he has our continued blessing.

/fail

/massive fail

I don't care if Kucinich or Edwards or Clinton or Conyers does it. It needs doing, or we may as well declare this country "The Royal Protectorate of Bush."

You get nothing from it. Not even accountability. Bush get acquitted by the Senate and gets to claim vindication. That's the opposite of accountability.

Talk about Fail.

I also seriously disagree with Rep. Conyers.

The problem is Elected Officials in Washington appear to live in a bubble where the only thing that matters is re-election.

So they look at how the Clinton impeachment was negatively viewed and how Republicans lost some seats because of it.

However they miss the other facts from that time period...

1. Bill Clinton was a very popular President even throughout the impeachment which is why people never supported it.
2. The Republicans had spent $60 million in taxpayer money on a very long witchhunt that was obvious to the public at the time.
3. It was about perjury but perjury over a personal, family matter.


In response to Conyers' whole fake "the public isn't behind impeachment" standard, I think he sets the bar incredibly low.

1. George Bush is the most unpopular president, ever.
2. This is about real crimes of constitutional law and beyond, these are not petty crimes.
3. The media has been complicit in covering the facts up for Bush but if a trial were to happen they would cover it end to end for ratings and advertising dollars. The trial would bring facts and evidence to light and many Americans would hear of these crimes for the first time and support for impeachment as well as anger towards the Bush Administration would surely grow.
4. There are already polls on impeachment that put support as high as 30-50%. That's without the help of the media telling the truth these past 7 years folks.
5. The Republicans did not lose all that many seats. Aside from Jim Jeffords switching sides they had a majority afterwards and during the first 6 years of Bushco they were able to expand his rubber stamp to the point where Democrats couldn't even view bills on a timely basis or request a meeting room.

I also think that Feingold making the claim about "lots of work to do for the American people" is disingenuous. Look, you can vote all you want to expand Health Care, eliminate Iraq War funding... even today with Oil Company Windfall Taxes... None of it gets passed. The Republicans have figured out how to obstruct and Bush vetoes everything knowing he has enough votes to sustain it.

The only thing we have any power on is Committee Hearings... hearings that should be made to investigate some of these criminal acts by the Bush Administration. The problem there is we have people like Joe Lieberman heading a committee who refuses to investigate Hurricane Katrina response and others who stifle actual investigations that would endanger Bushco in anyway.

Henry Waxman has tried in the House but even there when he gets something to work with he finds that the Justice Dept. has been so politicized that they will not act on their subpoenas. And that seems to fall on the work the Senate has not done when they let Mukasey and Alberto Gonzales get through.

Obama, I kind of understand. He's concerned if he supports it openly it looks partisan and will push away any Republicans and some Independents he is courting. Although I think it seriously hurts his credibility to speak of going through Bush Signing Statements and Executive Orders and eliminating any that violate the Constitution when you're unwilling to protect the Constitution by impeaching those who are trying to eliminate it's authority.

Still there is plenty of "work" to do for Americans, unfortunately this Congress seems eager to run out the clock and waste their entire 2 year term in surrender mode knowing they can't pass anything. With gridlock thanks to the Republicans and Bush's veto pen, an Impeachment trial would at least be doing something and that something happens to be upholding the very oath that they swore to when they got into office.

Rp

Love those words!! Thank You!!

Those that chose to abdicate their sworn oaths should be removed and those
that support them need a huge history lesson and a class in Civic Duty!

"I do not worship at the feet of Dennis Kucinich"

Nor have I seen anyone on DU do that either.

However, I do respect a man who stands up for his own convictions-- regardless of the tides of popularity, as do a lot of other people.

And while I can easily understand a person confusing "worship" with "respect", they are actually worlds apart in meaning...

we understood that dennis did`t have a chance but we know he has many good ideas on how to change the direction of this country. we just asked that he be heard but the media did`t want him to be heard.

opposition to him constitutes support of his Republican opponent, which is a clear violation of DU rules.

Alerting.

Senator Feingold on this issue. While I do admire Kucinich and his stand, I think that they need to focus on overturning everything bushass has screwed up. And I think you are a good Democrat to not follow blindly. Very good post K&R.

reads them into the record,and people think he`s wasting his time? i think the house and senate has wasted more time in the last two years than dennis`s few hours of truth.

he knows nothing can be done but at least ,if we are still here in the future, someone will stumble across what he said yesterday and wonder why no one stood beside him.



if we don`t say it`s wrong then we say it`s right

I would have gotten flamed, told I was bitter and to get over it, called a DLC'er, not a real Democrat (whatever the hell that is) and other various and assorted insults.

Instead, it's just part of a GD post.

That doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling in ANY candidate if they feel the person in that position shouldn't be held accountable for their illegal actions, because it might be perceived as "partisan" to hold them accountable.

And I'm sorry to see him whitewash crimes that resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent people as "loose ethical standards."

The president has violated so many laws, run over the Constitution so many times, that anyone who is opposed to his impeachment is, quite frankly, an enabler, as you are. Censuring the president only makes the man laugh in our faces, and sets a bad precedent for future executives.

That putrescent organization is a cancer on the party.

And it looks like Obama belongs in that category, too. I have always said he is such a phony.

They need two thirds and there is zero chance.

This strawman is thrown up every time someone mentions impeachment.

that's just what Repugs are/do. Democrats should stand up for the Constitution, and to make sure war criminals get at least impeached (and if possible, prosecuted). If they don't, they set a dangerous precedent for future presidents. But I suspect that's EXACTLY why they don't want to impeach: they need the dictatorial powers in case on of them becomes president.

http://www.mgwashington.com/index.php/news/article/dean-says-dems-not-sent-to-congress-to-impeach-bush/1232/

But Dean added: “My view is that the American people hired us in 2006 because they did not like the direction that the country was going in and what they wanted to see was someone that was willing to do something positive and get something done in Washington that was for their benefit.”

“They didn’t send us there to impeach the president,” Dean said.

Kucinich has said he wants the House to consider impeachment.

His Articles of Impeachment outline numerous allegations against President Bush, including what is claimed to be the creation of a massive propaganda campaign to mislead the nation into war with Iraq, the illegal use of torture during interrogation, the authorization of a warrantless wiretapping program on American citizens.

And, it's not even the issue as much as the best way to handle it. I know we all agree that there have been crimes and atrocities, but the best plan of how to move forward is the biggest point of contention.

I just find that sad. There are a lot of good Democrats who feel it best to handle it differently and not impeach. These include very well-educated, experienced, wise and honorable men and women. They don't hold this opinion in support of the atrocities, but in the best interest of the "big picture".

I didn't harshly criticize DK on this bill. I just don't agree with it. I respect your opinion of his actions and I respect that he has the tenacity to do it. I think this whole "you're for impeachment or you are no Democrat" talk is really out of line.

Nothing big, really...

conviction, why acquit him/them through the process rather than focusing on the election and seeking out other means?

for future presidents, if we don't impeach these thugs now.

It's insane how so many people are ready to toss so many good Democrats on this one issue.

And, it's not even the issue as much as the best way to handle it. I know we all agree that there have been crimes and atrocities, but the best plan of how to move forward is the biggest point of contention.

I just find that sad. There are a lot of good Democrats who feel it best to handle it differently and not impeach. These include very well-educated, experienced, wise and honorable men and women. They don't hold this opinion in support of the atrocities, but in the best interest of the "big picture".

I didn't harshly criticize DK on this bill. I just don't agree with it. I respect your opinion of his actions and I respect that he has the tenacity to do it. I think this whole "you're for impeachment or you are no Democrat" talk is really out of line.

If "we" don't settle this the world will

Individuals were watching and influenced by the TV program 24

TV show had many friends at Guantanamo.

Three weeks after the beginning of 2nd season of 24 the torture began.


Philippe Sands

Beyond the Torture Debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V2XCkGjP5g



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUICm1VH-rQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j38GxxE2CBY


The Green Light: Attorney Philippe Sands Follows the Bush Administration Torture Trail

A new exposé in Vanity Fair by British attorney Philippe Sands reveals new details about how attorney John Yoo and other high-ranking administration lawyers helped design and implement the interrogation policies seen at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and secret CIA prisons. According to Vanity Fair, then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales and other top officials personally visited Guantanamo in 2002, discussed interrogation techniques and witnessed interrogations. Sands joins us in our firehouse studio.





Philippe Sands: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPAGNNsrwUw



Jimmy Carter: Talks George Bush & war crimes at Hay Festival
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrWBY2hO6vA

When pressed by Philippe Sands...on Bush's recent admission that he had authorized interrogation procedures widely seen as amounting to torture, Carter replied that he was sure Bush would be able to live a peaceful, 'productive life - in our country'" after he leaves the White House. Sands later said that he had "understood that to be 'clear confirmation' that, while Bush would face no challenge in his own country, 'what happened outside the country was another matter entirely.'


Phillipe Sands Discusses Torture and U.S. Policy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S6IU755uFM

On Bill Moyers Journal, human rights lawyer Phillipe Sands discusses his new book on how the U.S. came to abandon the Geneva Convention and accept torture. Sands says Bush administration officials are unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions.



Rep. Mike Pence: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTla3-JZhnM

Philippe Sands attempts to enlighten Rep. Pence as to why torture is wrong during his appearance before the House Judiciary Constitution, Civil Rights & Civil Liberties Subcmte. hearing on Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules


Rep.John Conyers: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFLCNypjK6k

Philippe Sands responds to Rep. Conyers question as to what avenues of inquiry the committee should undertake and expounds upon his testimony before the House Judiciary Constitution, Civil Rights & Civil Liberties Subcmte. hearing on Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules.



Addington was the leader of the pack, went to Guantanamo himself




Rep.Artur Davis: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sst5vMpOFx4

David Rivkin tries to claim that the IRA was a different threat but Rep.Davis throws his flawed logic back in his face. Philippe Sands also pointedly rebukes Rivkin assertions. Discussion of Presidental pardons to exonerate torture policies employed is hypothetically touched on. From hearing by House Judiciary Constitution, Civil Rights & Civil Liberties Subcmte. on Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules.



Rep.Issa & Rep.Ellison: Guantanamo Bay Interrogation Rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQKZ5WaTWdA

Philippe Sands responds to the slick and sly Rep.Issa and details his thoughts further upon question by Rep. Ellison during hearing by House Judiciary Constitution, Civil Rights & Civil Liberties Subcmte. on Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules.

but that's up to you to sort it all out for yourself ~ as tis true for us all).

One can ALWAYS be 'thankful' though for an honestly 'trying to be good guy'.....which would be Dennis.

Peace,
M_Y_H

See -- it's funny because he's short and stuff.

It cracks me up how some here act like he's the be all end all. In the end of it all, he's more silly than anything else.

"I hereby nominate Dennis Kucinich for Sainthood"
"Is he like Ghandi?"
"he would be an awesome AG" (note: he's not an attorney)
"I dont think we actually have any Dems in the house and senate other than Dennis... The rest are republican lite"
"You are lesser of a Democrat"
"If Obama renounces the impeachment effort. I'm DONE! I will not vote for him."
"ANYBODY who opposes impeachment does not belong in the Democratic Party"

etc..

you're a tired old distractionist.

Operation mind crime is a VERY appropos name for you.

Hang-it-up buddy (if you can?)

Yeah, he's a bit loony. Quite silly at times too.

(looney.....:crazy: :eyes: )

M_Y_H

I kinda thrive off it though hehehe

I'd wager your bar of what is and isn't 'smart', is just a weeeeeeee bit lower than mine.

:rofl:

:spray:

on this message board

given the way hundreds of people here reached out to you in your time of need

Many of us who aren't particularly crazy about you to begin with, offered you prayers and emotional support--and we were quite sincere. And you still crap all over folks here.

I find that very sad.

He's just eloquently pointing out once again the folly of mistaking his own profound arrogance and ignorance for intelligence.

It really has to be said, if being a complete, unbearable, vacuous, grating tool equated to high intellect, he might have single-handedly given the world the secret to Free Energy, Time Travel, and Immortality by now.

It's probably time to put him back on ignore for me as well.

Reading his infinite wisdom makes Root Canal seem like the greatest sex you ever had in your life.

Seriously dude, you're an ok guy, but you're waaaaay too full of yourself. :shrug:

Waste of time. Just like the poster himself.

The apologists for them are condoning the crimes of the Bush presidency and congress's failure to act on them.

Politicians fail to do the right thing because they are backed by an apathetic public who see politics-as-usual as normal and desirable because it provides them with a safe and comfortable way of dealing (or, not dealing) with their own responsibilities as citizens.

America has become the faux democracy it is, not because of what the government does, but because the citizenry fails to do what it is required to do as envisioned by the founders.

That is, to be the government. Not merely bystanders who see their responsibility as marking a ballot every few years to put a new set of bosses in power to "lead" them to the promised land.

"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."
Thomas Paine

I'm very disappointed in Obama's statement about impeachment, but hardly surprised by it.

IMO he's just another politician playing the political game, and as a likely president, he is fearful of impeachment as an avenue of political change.

All presidents, all politicians, should be fearful of impeachment in a democracy.

Even though I think he's worth 10 of most other elected Democrats.

Feet not to be worshipped

A shame.

Great piece, Nikki! :applause:

"Speaker Pelosi Must Be Removed For Her Illegal Position on Impeachment Investigation" gets 103 recs.

What site am I on anyway?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

What, your smear campaign isn't working in Cleveland, so you bring it to DU?

I thought we weren't supposed to "echo the tone" of our political opponents.

Didn't Skinner just make a post (yesterday, I believe) stating that we were NOT to start threads attacking "Clinton supporters or Edwards supporters or Kucinich supporters" and that such nonsense is counter-productive?

You do realize that the man faces the voting booths in November, don't you?

What is the point of this topic being put up for discussion?

because many Dem leaders don't agree with impeachment.

Echoing the tone of our opponents is calling people "lesser Democrats" because they don't agree with impeachment.

Echoing the tone of our opponents is saying that ALL Democrats (other than DK) in the House and Senate are "republican lite" because they don't agree with impeachment.

Echoing the tone of our opponents is saying "ANYBODY who opposes impeachment does not belong in the Democratic Party".

Echoing the tone of our opponents is stating "If Obama renounces the impeachment effort. I'm DONE! I will not vote for him".

Echoing the tone of our opponents is saying that Democratic leaders "lack balls" (which, by the way is also a sexist, immature and assholish thing to say) because they don't agree with impeachment.

Echoing the tone of our opponents is continuing this "you're with us or against us" attitude that's been non-stop all week.

The "point" was... we can have differences of opinion and it doesn't make one of us a better or worse Democrat. The point was that we need to stop attacking each other and come together for the sake of the country and to ACHIEVE COMMON GOALS. Obviously you missed the "point".

And, I didn't "attack" DK in my OP. I pointed out differences of opinion I have with him.

I don't consider the sheer outrage that I feel over the crimes that my own government has committed, in my name, as any mere "difference of opinion". I see that politicians, from one end of this nation to the other, have contented themselves with doing their little song-and-dance, spinning in the face of blind justice, playing their game at the expense of not just this country's people, but millions and millions of innocents, all over the globe.

Long ago, I listened to this nation's leaders telling us that killing commies was necessary to achieve a common goal. Since then, pardon me for being a bit suspecting when anyone pulls that term out of their ass, as an excuse for condoning, colluding, or covering up the crimes I see my government now committing.

For the sake of the world, those who are dying for peace and justice must be heard! Now, not next week or in a few months or after yet more ballots have been cast...the situation is dire, it is urgent, and it is deadly. I've nothing in common with those whose actions demonstrate a cold indifference to humanity and I also could never support such monsters in attaining what they deem worthy goals. So I guess I really just don't get your point.

And if you now feel the need to say, "Echoing the tone of our opponents is saying 'Not seeking justice, immediately, against our murderous, monstrous government, is inhumane'", then I surely must be one of those opponents, cause I stand with humanity, always!

and then go onto imply that I am breaking the rules falsely claiming I am attacking Kucinich supporters. Quite the contrary, they are attacking people by calling them "lesser Dems", claiming there's no room for them in the Democratic party if they disagree with this initiative and its timing.

And, yes I do realize that DK is up for reelection. And I am 100% sure that his timing with this impeachment attempt has nothing to do with him being up for reelection this fall. Since he's all like super virtuous, Gandhi-like, a saint and stuff, he'd never do anything to try to put himself in the limelight.

Those who would counsel you to surrender to */Cheney are patsies. Those who counsel you to give up without even having goddamned hearings are selling poison.

I can tell you get it. :patriot: