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Why did 58 Democrats flip on FISA from no to YES since last year?

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:23 AM
Original message
Why did 58 Democrats flip on FISA from no to YES since last year?
I am very impressed by this post at Swing State Project. The poster has really done some research on this.

I really do disagree with his rather condescending attitude toward those who question the FISA cave-in.

I don't have any ranting to add to this matter, as that's not really Swing State Project style; I'll leave that to Glenn Greenwald and the good folks over at Open Left and Daily Kos.


We need people like those mentioned to question our Democrats when they do things that don't make sense. I love the ones he mentioned and read them daily. Good for them for ranting. I rant a lot, too. Not sure when Swing State became so critical of some of our very best left bloggers. :shrug:

He does make some points though. He shows we have actually gone way way way backwards on this issue. On the issue of protecting the telecoms from lawsuits...or using retroactive immunity to protect Little Boots who worked with them.

WHY are we going backwards?

Who Changed Their Tune on Iraq Supplemental and FISA

What interested me is that now we have a series of bookends, where we can measure how far we've come on changing the debate on funding the Iraq War and on FISA. Short answer, judging by the raw vote totals, is: not very far on the Iraq War, and we've gone way backwards on FISA. (Although comparing today's FISA vote against the "Protect America Act" from last August is kind of apples and oranges, as today seemed to turn more on the narrow issue of retroactive immunity for telecoms rather than the overarching issue of spying on American citizens. I'd guess that fewer Congresspeople were bothered by the idea of letting the telecoms skate than by the much larger issues that were at stake last August.)


He lists the votes changes from last year. He lists the 58 Democrats who changed from a NO to a YES vote on FISA. That is not just a drip...that is a whole flood going backwards.

FISA
2007 total: 227 aye - 183 no - 23 NV
Dems in 2007: 41 aye - 181 no - 9 NV
GOP in 2007: 186 aye - 2 no - 14 NV
2008 total: 293 aye - 129 no - 13 NV
Dems in 2008: 105 aye - 128 no - 3 NV
GOP in 2008: 188 aye - 1 no - 10 NV


The poster says it is hard to call this a long list of Democratic "defections"...since the Democratic leadership is included.

58 who flipped from no to aye (i.e. good to bad): Gary Ackerman, Mike Arcuri, Joe Baca, Brian Baird, Shelly Berkley, Howard Berman, Marion Berry, Sanford Bishop, Tim Bishop, Rick Boucher, Nancy Boyda, Corrine Brown, GK Butterfield, Dennis Cardoza, Kathy Castor, Emanuel Cleaver, Jim Clyburn, Joe Crowley, Norm Dicks, Rahm Emanuel, Eliot Engel, Gabby Giffords, Kirsten Gillibrand, Al Green, Gene Green, Luis Gutierrez, Jane Harman, Tim Holden, Paul Kanjorski, Dale Kildee, Ron Kind, Jim Langevin, Nita Lowey, Tim Mahoney, Carolyn McCarthy, Jerry McNerney, Greg Meeks, Dennis Moore, John Murtha, Solomon Ortiz, Nancy Pelosi, Ed Perlmutter, Nick Rahall, Silvestre Reyes, Dutch Ruppersberger, Adam Schiff, David Scott, Joe Sestak, Brad Sherman, Albio Sires, Adam Smith, John Spratt, Bart Stupak, Ellen Tauscher, Bennie Thompson, Mark Udall, John Yarmuth

9 Dems went from no vote to no; this includes some of our newest: Bill Foster, and Donna Edwards, on her second day on the job. 3 Dems and 1 Republican went from no to no vote; the Republican was Walter Jones. 12 Republicans and 6 Dems went from no vote to yes: the Dems were Don Cazayoux, Travis Childers, Ruben Hinojosa, Ron Klein, Laura Richardson, and Ike Skelton. 8 Republicans went from yes to no vote.


The poster also spends time on the Iraq Supplemental. We did not do so hot there either.

Kit Bond, Republican, said that the president got a very good deal.

Call it a “supercave,” in fact, if Kit Bond likes it this much:

“I think the White House got a better deal than they even they had hoped to get.”

..."About 45 percent of Democrats crossed the aisle, 105 in all, with just one Republican, Illinois’ Timothy Johnson, joining the 128 Democrats in opposition."


To those who ask why this is a bad bill...here is something I posted from the Open Left site the poster criticizes at Swing State. It is from fall, 2007.
Fisa Train Wreck is on the way.

I just got off the phone with Caroline Fredrickson from the ACLU, and the news is about what you'd expect if you have witnessed Democratic House behavior over the past six months. The bottom line is that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are disorganized and giving no signals to members on the FISA wiretapping expansion and retroactive immunity to telecom companies, which is going to result in horrific legislation. In the Senate, Jay Rockefeller is once again inviting Mike McConnell into closed hearings on how to fix the FISA law, and the markup is next week. There are no drafts of legislation around, which is a bad The Senate Judiciary Committee is hamstrung by Dianne Feinstein, who prevents a majority, and by the instincts of Democrat leaders who, in a conflicts between Judiciary and Intelligence, will go with Intelligence because of a perceived fear of national security weakness.

Rockefeller, in order to get something 'bipartisan' that can pass the Senate, is working with Kit Bond to draft something that can get to 60 votes. Bond of course is close to McConnell, and so it's likely that the bill coming out of the Senate Judiciary is going to contain retroactive immunity for telecom companies (thank you lobbyist Jamie Gorelick) and a permanent fix to FISA that expands executive power. Reid and Pelosi, ironically, by ordering Democrats to move quickly so as to fix the problem they caused in July, are just accelerating the process of crafting this horrendous bill. This is complicated of course by the millions that telecom companies give to members on the Hill to prevent things like net neutrality from passing, though of course here too there's no logic since much of that money goes to Republicans.

In the House, the Intelligence Committee is slightly better, but we have no drafts of legislation and it's going to be marked up next week. Conyers on Judiciary, though opposed to FISA expansion, isn't doing anything about this through his committee. The alternative to 'fixing' this legislation is to simply let the six month FISA extension of authority expire in February, and go back to the regime we had prior to August. There is literally no reason to do what the Democrats are about to do in the House and Senate.


We went backwards on FISA, way backwards. Instead of asking what is wrong with the bill, then ask why is the ACLU planning a lawsuit on the grounds it is unconstitional....

Ask why 58 Democrats flipped from no to yes.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Some guest on msnbc this week suggested they had been shown...
...more scary (probably fake) evidence about terrorist activity.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. SO...the old fear factor is working better than ever, huh?
We will never win that way. Aren't they tired of being fearful?
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. If it's true, apparently they're afraid of being blamed if something happens.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Either That
Or pictures of them having sex with dolls, the congress critters not the terrorists!
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. Kinda wish it was the pictures! But I think it was John Dean...
...who said they'd probably been shown some terrorist threat "intelligence" ~ and went on to say that we'd never know because those briefings are secret. Amazing!
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
50. Still no need for immunity PRIOR to 9/11.
For after 9/11 it should not be offered, but offering it for before 9/11 is unconscionable.

Perhaps this is what all the hints of losing a city to terrorism were about, stepping up to make the new Dems think the RWers have info that is serious, or at least very well contrived plan to make something look like a terrorist plan.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. complicity..and they were guilty as well and maybe bribery???????? n/t
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Fear and bribery.
The telecoms are very rich and powerful, and
they can bring a lot of pressure and money
to any table.

Dem Congressman obviously cannot withstand
the pressure.. particularly when their own
leadership is agin em.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Remember This
With everyone else it's bribery, with congress it's a campaign contribution.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. Jerry McNerney from no to yes.
That is noteworthy. Very unexpected. I wonder what is going on.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. It really is disconcerting and way worse..
.. when those you think of as the good guys
cave in.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Yeah, what's up with that?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
53. It's an election year and McNerney represents a swing district
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. My rep caved.
What a frickin' disappointment.

My first call on Monday is to Rep. Brad Sherman (Turncoat - CA)

:grr:
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Stardust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
51. Word. My call will be to Rep. Howard Berman (Turncoat - CA).
:grr:

And after I had emailed him a pre-thank you for sticking to his convictions, as I was sure he would do... :banghead:

And either before or after my phone call to his office in D.C. in which I calmly expressed my opinion to his screener...

Jerk. Bet he never even read the messages. Kinda like my posts... :D
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. The real answer, the only plausable answer
is that they had their phones tapped, or were sneak and peeked or otherwise spied on and they are being blackmailed. Pelosi was one if the first. Think about it. Everyone past a certain age has a dark secret somewhere and I suspect that once you reach a certain level of power in Washington, you probably have many.
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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. Possible but then my odds at winning the publishers clearing house are possible to,
unlikely, but possible.
No I think it was a combination of the fact they wanted the president to agree on certain bills as well as pressure being applied to them from the telecoms via their lobbyists, until we pass a constitution amendment banning any corporation from donating money to a political candidate or someone in office as well as impose strict term limits it will continue to happen.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. Two Reasons for Democrats who switched
1) Following the lead of Nancy Pelosi, who switched.

2) The millions of dollars spent on lobbyists by the phone companies.

I don't know exactly how lobbyists persuade Congress members to change their positions under current ethics laws, but whatever it is (sex?) it still works.
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redstateblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. Election year politics
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
12. Collaboration!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. Hunter at Daily Kos: They think we are stupid.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/21/1545/63989/473/539564

He points out that when they say the illegal spying is over...it is only over because they made it legal.

How said.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
16. Has to be the same thing that has them rolling over for the last 8 years
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
17. We're screwn. nt
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kick for later, noticed the trend. Thanks n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. More about the bill from the ACLU blog
This Spade is a Spade: FISA Deal Is Bunk

Remember that horrible bill the Senate passed earlier this year? The one that had virtually no Fourth Amendment protections? Ok, now imagine Congressman Hoyer and Senator Bond putting a really pretty, really meaningless bow around it to distract you from what’s actually inside. Then they added a giveaway to the phone companies. There. Now you have the current FISA bill. Let me explain.

Court review? Pssh. Please. This is how it would work: The government wants to tap someone’s phone. It claims “exigent circumstances” and begins to do so. Then it goes to the FISA Court to be granted a warrant. “Hold up,” says the court. “This application is problematic and based on heresay.” Now the government starts the appeals process and that goes on for heaven knows how long. When does the surveillance stop on the problematic target? Um, never. The government is allowed to begin tapping without the courts and continue tapping when the court says no, provided it appeals. Nice, strong and meaningful judicial review, huh?

Immunity? Yes. Yes, it is. Here’s why: This immunity “compromise” sets the bar so low that anyone can clear it. Immunity hinges on whether a document from the president or government exists asking the companies to comply? We know they have them. You know who told us? The president. Asking the phone companies to put on their Sunday best, waltz to the courthouse and present a note from the leader of the free world does not a full and fair airing of the facts make. It’s a farce and, frankly, it’s offensive to those of us who cherish our privacy rights. Congress will be opening a Pandora’s box if this provision becomes law. What’s to prevent these companies from handing over our information again? Absolutely nothing.

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Randypiper Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
20. More importantly why did the Democrats bring it back up?
Democrats had successfully fought it back in 2006, Hoyer brought it back up. What an ass.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Yes, that is a very big part of it.
It boggles the mind.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. The Last Hurrah of the DLC, Perhaps?
A great big FU sendoff for the partisans who will be routed and wiped out in November, if we are lucky and work real hard.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
23. ACLU has a whole page devoted to this bill.
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/spying/fisa.html

Looks like they are the only ones looking out for our freedoms.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. This is an excellent, detailed overview. I understand the dynamics much better now that I see
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 01:17 PM by leveymg
how the process evolved.

The thing I still don't understand is why key liberal figures, like Pelosi, Berman and Ackerman, shifted. Why did centists, like Reyes and Emanuel, vote against the previou bill? What are the forces behind these decisions?

Anyone want to take a stab at that?
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #24
42. Sure, I'll take a stab at it:
"Ms. Pelosi, if you want to keep your place in line at the trough, you'll vote the way we want or next time you're up for re-election there will be a very well financed democratic contender who will vote the way we want."
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ben Chandler (D KY), a blue dog, voted against the FISA bill.
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
26. I suspect the false or exaggerated terrorist threats as well....
It seems very easy to scare the Democrats in the culture of fear that Bush has built!
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
27. Gabby Giffords -- A traitor to Democrats
My letter to her yesterday...

"Thank you for choosing not to defend the 4th amendment with your Aye vote regarding H.R. 6304. What a travesty. Your capitulation is deeply dis-heartening. My vote for you as a Democrat has been cast in vain.

Is there not an oath that you are sworn to iterating your defense of the Constitution? I would love to hear your justification to cast aside liberty and freedom to achieve... what exactly? Security? Protect the corporate individual in lieu of a natural citizen's rights?

This is an incredibly sad day for Democracy, and for the people of this country."
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #27
43. An excellent letter!
:thumbsup:

I'm sure her canned response will answer your questions satisfactorily - NOT.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. I will post it, if I ever receive one...
Thanks for the compliment! :hi:
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
28. Kicked and recommended. That's a good question.
Thanks for the thread. madfloridian.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
29. Another question: How well did pandering to fear work in 2002 and 2004?
Answer: Not very well.

:shrug:

So we are doing it again.
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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
30. what is pelosi trying to hide?
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
31. I don't think we're totally aware of how much power the corporate fascists in control truly have.
If we accept such things as their ownership of our elections in 2000 and 2004;

infiltration into our party of new "dems" who turn out in many ways to be republicans in disguise;

the absolute setup of America for their profiteering from a completely illegal war;

the strong possibility that they played at least some part in the horrible 9/11 event;

their control of the mainstream media;

and etc.,

then we can easily hazard a few guesses as to what threats of potential horrors may be held over the remaining patriots still in our government. Perhaps even the truest of them are somewhat kept in the dark.

It will be interesting to watch the careers of those few who have firmly held out for our Constitution.

We have to wake up to the fact that this is no longer the country we once thought it was.



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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. You are right. It is no longer the same country.
.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Yes..with all the "tech revolution" going on...the "basics" of Government got lost along the way
and now we find ourselves mired in this shit.....:-(
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
37. They were playing a waiting game, hoping the fury would die down. Kept putting it off in hopes
less political impact.

Any way you look at it, they chose politics over the rule of law. No excuse for it.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. But...why rush it through NOW...when our Dems have been so cautious, fearful
of "making waves." They wait until the eve of an election to ram this Bush/Cheney Give Away through?

What are they thinking?
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
39. k and r. When the repukes decided to create
their own reality, we thought that the dems would bring us back from the brink--but they play the same exact game. They are all making our minds explode with indignation and horror. I'm beginning to feel like Winston Smith.
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
40. I have sent an email to Gabrielle Giffords...
asking why she voted to suspend Constitutional rights to some, but not others.

We shall see if she answers thos questions.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
41. The reason we are so upset....they did it on purpose, going against the grassroots.
It was done deliberately. It said to us that we are unimportant, far less important than the 25% who love Bush and live in fear.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. It almost makes one question the validity of the 06 "victory."
Hmm ... necessary purge value for an increasingly angry electorate?

As in, yeah, let's go ahead and let em have the impression that Things Are Changing.

Food for thought.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
46. Because the '06 majority came from Center-Right n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Because it was engineered by the DCCC to do so. And they will keep on...
doing it as long as we remain silent.

They got rid of many candidates who were progressive and got more "right wing" candidates running...in FL picking two former Republicans...one still a Republican when Rahm handpicked him to run against the Democrat.

Come on, enough of that. Right wing Democrats won because the others were pushed out by our own party....over and over and over.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. madfloridian, I really respect this OP. We have to ask questions. We can't just BELIEVE -
especially in the face of such disturbing evidence.
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Super Soaker Sniper Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
48. I, for one,
have never elevated a politician to where he is anything more than human. In fact, at times it has been a real task to elevate them to the level of human in the first place. More than human? No, never. Humans with flaws, quirks and (especially because they are politicians)faults.

As humans, they possess a strong self preservation instict for their own life. Equally so for their political life. As a majority they voted for the war, didn't they? Why did they vote for instead of against this time? Election year? Something in it for them? I look no further than that. Whatever they say in regards to their vote later is nothing more than lube before sex. Makes it easier, but you still got screwed.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
49. Or maybe because its a different bill?
The world is easier in black and white.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. A dangerous one they only had 24 hours to read and one hour to discuss.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
55. The "FLIP" is amazing isn't it? What do they know that we don't?
Would..."How to get along when Bush/Cheney attack Iraq" fall into their suddent awakening? :shrug:

McCain's Campaig Op...Charlie Black (of Bush I and II fame) put out the "meme" of "Iraq Attack" and cable news laughed it off. But, we here on DU know to take these "predictions" of REPUG OP's..Very Seriously....Very Seriously...because they are putting out what they "KNOW" is going to happen when they do these "supposed mis-speaks." They are "alerting their base" and that's what they do and how they win.
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