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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:12 PM
Original message
Those furious with Obama over FISA -Bill Clinton signed EO 12949 into
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 02:14 PM by Bluerthanblue
law, did you abandon your support and faith in him then as well?

I'm getting pretty frustrated with the way so many people are quick to condemn and trash Obama over his statement on the upcoming FISA bill that will come before the Senate.

How many people know that President WJ Clinton supported expansion of FISA- ?

That he was instrumental in the same 'distruction' of our 4th Ammendment Rights?

Ya didn't? well neither did I- until I did what I believe a responsible person should do before passing judgement-
I looked for my information about the law myself.





Seven judges on a secret court have authorized all but one of over 7,500 requests to spy in the name of National Security. They meet in secret, with no published orders, opinions, or public record. Those spied on May never know of the intrusion. Now, Clinton has expanded the powers to include not only electronic, but physical searches.
The aftershock of the Oklahoma City bombing sent Congress scurrying to trade off civil liberties for an illusion of public safety. A good ten weeks before that terrible attack, however with a barely noticed pen stroke President Bill Clinton virtually killed off the Fourth Amendment when he approved a law to expand the already extraordinary powers of the strangest creation in the history of the federal judiciary.

Since its founding in 1978, a secret court created by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA rhymes with ice -a) has received 7,539 applications to authorize electronic surveillance within the U.S. In the name of national security, the court has approved all but one of these requests from the Justice Department on behalf of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency. Each of these decisions was reached in secret, with no published orders, opinions, or public record. The people, organizations, or embassies spied on were not notified of either the hearing or the surveillance itself. The American Civil Liberties Union was not able to unearth a single instance in which the target of a FISA wiretap was allowed to review the initial application. Nor would the targets be offered any opportunity to see transcripts of the conversations taped by the government and explain their side of the story.





PLEASE take a few minutes out of your afternoon and read this-
http://mediafilter.org/CAQ/Caq53.court.html

I don't believe we need FISA- we didn't when it was created in 78 we don't today. Trading our constitutional right to privacy for some kind of bogus promise of 'security' is a bad trade.

IMO

peace~
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Did the bill Clinton signed put the president, and anyone he chooses, above the law?
Do you really see an equivalency here?

What I am most curious about is why this FISA bill today is being pushed as a "compromise". I want to hear Obama explain what the Repubs gave up, to get that breathtaking automatic blanket immunity for anyone who broke the law, so that I can understand why he supports the compromise.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Actually- I'm more upset with Clinton- he could, by the stroke of his pen
have killed the expansion of FISA. But he, a good, loyal, highly intelligent Democrat- caved.
And what was his position? Was he merely one of many in the legislature, or the one with the Veto power?



Obama's statement does not say he is fine with the immunity which is part of the bill we face today. He has said he intends to work towards removing that from the bill. And as I understand it, if the bill is altered in any substantial way, would it not need to return to the house? The bill is not law YET.

The bill Clinton signed was law for several years.

Did you excoriate him the way people are doing to Obama? Before the man has yet to even cast his vote???

peace~

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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I am taking a wait-and-see attitude. I will wait and see what Obama does.
But I do not like that he prefaced his objection to immunity with saying he "supports the compromise". He supports it. He said so. Apparently he agrees with the sales job that it was a compromise, and not a clear capitulation to everything the Republicans wanted, and I want to know why. It makes my stomach sink at what he might mean.

If it seems like excoriation that is going on here today, well, this is the man we are pinning our hopes on to be a breath of fresh air. He is more than one of 50 votes this coming week. He is our party head now, the man we are looking up to to be our next president. To erase the stain that Bush and his party put on the presidency. I think he should do more than cast a vote. I think he should lead.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I wish I could K&R this post!! ~ Well said!!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Solid! ;)
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. If you are one of those who are not abandoning Obama-
and verbally beating him up over his statement, then this post really isn't directed to you-

I personally as I stated, do not wish to have ANY FISA laws- but I also realize that there are those within this party and within this country that don't share my view.

There are many posts on DU which are treating Obama as if he wrote the FISA bill originally, and is championing it's merits.

I do believe Obama will lead- and I am choosing to believe he will make choices as President, which some who are coming over to the left to join us, will accept when he as president, but which might be a bit of a stretch for them before that.

I could be wrong- but I also think it is important to look at what other Democratic leaders have done, leaders we look back on with approval, and not expect Obama to be "The Messiah" that so many people try to marginalize those of us who support him with our eyes- wide open as seeking.

peace~
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. I thought that blaming Bill Clinton for everything wrong in the
world was a Republican tactic.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Who is blaming him for "everything wrong"? Is hyperbole your first language?
:shrug:

PB
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
38. "change you can believe in"
that's what I define as "hyperbole".
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. fuck that- Is this the best answer you have??? Or perhaps
do you have no way to justify screwing Obama to the wall for something he has yet to even VOTE on, while letting Dems from the past skate???

I thought hyprocricy, and double standards were something we - progressive Dem's- try to avoid falling victim to.

MY POINT- (I'll be the first to admit I don't communicate well-)

MY POINT was, that even Dems we respect, and who we believe have done their best to lead and represent us, are less than perfect.-

It was asking for a bit of perspective- A little 'reality check' in the way people are choosing to react to this issue.

Maybe I expect too much- calling people names and belittling them rather than addressing the issue is such a sad waste of life.

:shrug:

peace~
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. bill clinton was the most successful republican president of the past 50 years.
i'm no fan of bill's-

nafta, gatt, wto, telecom act, defense of marriage act, welfare "reform"...he was great at passing repuke legislation.
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comradebillyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Yea that 8 years of peace and prosperity was
a real bitch wasn't it? Good thing GWB restored honor and decency to the white house.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. bill clinton made gwb possible, by letting poppy and his crew off the hook for iran-contra...
like the good republican he was.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. it's easy to blame the ills of the world on others-
Experience in life has taught me that things are NEVER as 'simple' or cut and dried as they seem.

And hindsight always makes our mistakes so blaitently obvious.

I voted for Gore- but I didn't do everything humanly possible to keep Bush out- like civil disobiedience- so I'll accept my own share of the blame you are quick to lay on Clinton's shoulders alone.


:(

peace~
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Did Clinton EVER wiretap without a warrant?
Did he ever TRY to?

Yesterday's vote means that warrants and judicial review are all but eliminated.

Clinton never went that far. 4th Amendment rights were still there, albeit weakened.

You may believe that FISA itself is unnecessary, but at least it provided SOME review.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. did you read the article? Do you know what the ACLU
thinks of the bill Clinton made into law?

What 4th ammendment rights were still there under Clintons bill?

And, yes, there WERE people who were targeted under Clinton-
http://www.riddiough.org/ks.htm

In 1995, with the support of the Clinton Administration and a Republican Congress, FISA was expanded to permit the FISA court to authorize physical searches based on the same minimal level of suspicion that could justify electronic surveillance. For the first time in its history, the U.S. government received congressional permission to conduct actual searches of U.S. citizens and legal residents outside the parameters of the Fourth Amendment. At the same time, the Clinton Administration set out to integrate the efforts of the intelligence community and the Justice Department, often at bureaucratic odds. The results have been predictable, if discomfiting. FISA orders have increased from 576 in 1994 to 839 in 1996--a whopping 46 percent.

It isn't as cut and dried, or as simple as any of us might like to make it-

peace~
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. I read it - and I stand by my original post
Yes, the Janet Reno warrant for Ames was questionable and yes, it should have been challenged. But at least there WAS a warrant, a legal document that made an official responsible for it's consequences.

But from what I've seen of the FISA judges, they are not merely rubber stampers. They will apply the same standards of legality that they would for citizen's law enforcement warrants.

It DOES trouble me that the FISA judges are appointed by the SC Chief Justice - but that's no longer an issue now, is it?

I'll say it again. Clinton NEVER ordered a search without a warrant.

Sure, all the secrecy stinks. And there IS a need for a secure, rapid warrant issuing procedure.

But you don't throw all the babies out with the bath water. That's what Congress did yesterday.
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ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. I never abandoned support or faith in Clinton
Because I don't blindly support or have faith in anyone, including Obama.

And that should be a lesson to all.
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comradebillyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. excellent and most reasonable position
people in power or who seek power must be examined with great skepticism and suspicion

Remember "absolute power corrupts absolutely but it also totally rocks" stole that one from despair.com
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. I appreciate that you say
very succinctly, what I've been trying to say in a messload of words.

Thank You-

peace~
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yes. n/t
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. I did and it was another step toward my rejecting him as the self-serving
asshole that made all this possible.



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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. well then, you
can congratulate yourself on being consistent and informed.

I didn't understand FISA- I confess, I didn't even recall the bill which Clinton signed.
My life was in utter chaos at that time.

I believe you are a minority though- an informed minority.


peace~
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I am. I always have been, and until I get out of this country, I always will be.
I fought this fight for 30+ years. Until I see some movement toward the next generation picking up the banner and continuing the fight, I'm done. A noble experiment that was killed by ignorance and apathy.

In the meantime I can hang out here and IRL and continue to annoy the crap out of the sheeple.



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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. We don't "owe" any president any faith or support.
The are OUR employees and this one's about to screw up during the interview process.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. I never was a fan of Bill Clinton,
even though I voted for him twice. I didn't support much of what he did.

Time has proved me correct.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. "...did you abandon your support and faith in him then as well?"... huh? I never had any.. trying..
but being brow beat by a Obama zealot isn't helping me at all. :eyes:

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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. look Breeze- it's clear
that you and I don't seem to be able to communicate with each other in a meaningful way-

I am perfectly willing to take my share of responsibility in this- I don't want to put you on ignore, because I have only used that function on very rare occasions- I try to just let things be, but I'm human, and I get frustrated too.

I am NOT an "Obama Zealot"- and if you really look at my positions on this site over the last several years, you'll see I really don't fit into any "category"- I take positions that are often unpopular but which I believe are consistent with my liberal, democratic political perspective on life.-

My post was not addressed to you- and if you were well aware of the Clinton support of FISA and it's expansion in the '90's you really don't have need to defend yourself and your stand in this.

I'm sorry we are not able to share our perspectives more productively and pleasantly.
I am not your enemy. Nor are you mine.

I'll make a sincere effort to avoid bothering you.

:hi:

peace~
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. You're the one using words in the OP, like 'furious' and 'frustrated' and asking
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 04:15 PM by Breeze54
open ended 'assuming' questions, not me.

You get the response you seek.

Asking me if I've abandoned supporting him, assumes that I already DID support him and I've seen similar responses to mine in this thread. If I answer that question yes or no, it's like answering that other old question; "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Look, it seems to me that many Obama supporters (not you per say) have assumed that if and when he won the nomination, that we all would automatically all be 'on board'. That was a silly assumption and the fact you haven't seen that all encompassing support, imho, seems to be angering you. It shouldn't though. I was treated like shit by some of the Clinton and the Obama supporters. I don't take kindly to that, so if I'm slow to jump on your particular 'band wagon', that's why. I'm taking this GE slow and easy. I'm not "all aboard!" at all. Keep trying to push me into that 'purple house' and I'll leave. Simple as that. I'll make up my own mind. I don't like having things forced down my throat. I doubt you do either.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. Yup, don't look at Obama, look at Clinton
Now where have I heard that before?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. a healthy
perspective is not something to mock.

Who should I compare Obama to? Who are YOU comparing him to?

Was Bill Clinton not a President you feel did a decent job?

If you have something you want to say, please just say it- don't play games.

thanks-
peace~
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Oh I'm sorry, Its just that every time Anyone is criticized
the refain " well Clinton did it" is dragged out. Every time the Pukes get called on something they pull it, now to hear dems trying to pull it makes me uncomfortable.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
46. As I have said before
all of those overzealous republican punks had to go somewhere....where do YOU think they went?
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PurpleStateVoter Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. Saying this bill allows illegal wiretaps is silly...
If you recall Bush didn't need any law to tell him to bypass the FISA courts and simply allow monitoring of phone calls. He did it anyway.

This bill restores the requirement that the President must get authorization from FISA courts to monitor these calls. Obama is correct to do this. It'd be crazy for him to oppose it.

He's not supporting Bush's wiretapping program, he's supporting the restoration of requiring the President to get FISA approval for this.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. Now that's some impressively contorted apologia, congratulations,
but how did you not hurt your back twisting that much?



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PurpleStateVoter Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. believe what you want...
But the bill does exactly what Obama described it as doing. Opponents don't want govt. to monitor calls period but I disagree. It's fine as long as the get FISA approval.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
26. YES YES YES! I was furious with Clinton over Echelon and illegal expansion
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 03:21 PM by Catherina
of executive power and dropped my support for him.

I believe in holding ALL politicians accountable. Clinton's sorry actions were another reason I didn't want Hillary as President with Bill showing her the greased ropes. What good are we if we don't hold them all to the SAME standard? This is what disappoints the most with my understanding of what Obama plans to do. I feel like hope and change might not be much different from same old, same old.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
30. So, because Clinton supported it that somehow makes it a non-issue?
Clinton trashed the 4th Amendment so Obama can too? Not sure I'm in agreement with you on that rationalization. We need to see what Obama says about it in the upcoming days though. I believe many supporters are providing LOTS of input to the Obama campaign right now and he hasn't voted yet. He did leave himself an "out" with the comment that he would work to strike the "immunity" aspect. Failing that, which is most probable, he WILL have an "out".
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. ~
to measure your expectations of Obama against? Are you one of those who feels that Obama is now pretty much worthless, as a result of his statement on the FISA compromise bill, which, as you point out he hasn't even had a chance to cast his vote on?

If not, if you are being fair, and waiting to see what he actually does, and are responding to this action, rather than unleashing a lot of very understandible, but destructive outrage over the myrad of abuses and disapointments we've had to face over these last 8 yrs. on the one person we are choosing to help us- then you really have no argument with me.

I think all in all Bill Clinton did a decent job as president. I'm one who didn't really prosper under his leadership, and disagreed with him on some things, but on the whole I'd say he was one of the better presidents I've supported and lived under.- I was IGNORANT of much of what he did on some pretty important issues- the bill this OP is about- for one.

My question was to those who are saying they have lost any faith they have in Obama over his one statement- and if they had felt the same way about Bill's expanding the FISA powers-

I'm sorry I'm so confusing.

peace~
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
32. "Clinton did it too" call a fucking whambulance
The right wing has been doing this for years. Shit needs to stand ON ITS OWN.

This is not a defense of Clinton. It is smack at the bullshit attempt at moral equivalency. Give it a fucking rest.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. no- it isn't. It is asking you to check your PERSPECTIVE-
I'm not "right-wing" and I gotta say I'm pretty disgusted with those who have so little to offer to defend their position by trying to put me in their mental 'trash-bin'.

If you are not one of those people who is tossing Obama to the wind as a result of his STATEMENT on the FISA bill, then this entire thread really doesn't have much to do with you at all.

This post is about the expectations that SOME people have for Obama- people who were quick to label many of us who have supported him for the long haul as "cultists" as people who "worship" him or see him as a "messiah"-

I don't. I never have. Obama is a human being, and he is VERY imperfect- That being said, looking back to president's I have actually been alive to experience, and choosing one I think did OK, I found that Bill Clinton's stand on FISA was more in line with the statement Obama made than I had ever known, and that he actually signed into law an order expanding FISA powers.-

NOW, is it fair to say that Obama cannot possibly be a decent president, because he has stated he plans to vote to keep FISA in place? How does that square with Clinton's actions, and my opinion on his presidency?

Can't you see the relevance?

Being pissed at Obama's stance is one thing- but the comments that have flown around on DU over the past few days as a result of the HOUSE voting for the bill- and the people that VENT on Obama the rage that belongs on the shoulders of those in the house who put the bill through, is quite another. And it is unfair and just plain wrong.

I'll give it a fucking rest when everyone else does-
gladly.

peace~
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I stand by what I said
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 04:33 PM by Husb2Sparkly
As for Obama ...... he's in a campaign to be president. He's got the nomination and now needs to run to the center. I get that and don't give much of a shit *what* he says so long as it is in line. This NAFTA crap is just that ..... crap.

I see red when I see the "Clinton Did It, Too" line dragged out. Its bullshit. You could have made whatever point it is you're trying to make without that. All it does is weaken your argument.

Edit ..... the issue was FISA .... I said NAFTA ..... my point remains ..... "What the fuck ever" ..... don't drag Clinton in to make some bullshit argument about some guy who is NOT Clinton.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. no, I really did need to
bring out a respected Dem president to contrast this issue.
I have to say I don't know about the "NAFTA" issue- so I can't address that- and I'm not trying to-
(did you mean NAFTA?- or FISA)
I AM addressing those on DU who believe that Obama's statement on FISA disqualifies him as a member of the human race- (sarcastic, overstatement)
And asking if they use the same measurement on Clinton- and if they knew Bill's position was much more in line with Obama's than I ever knew.

I was using Clinton as a "positive role model"- not as a dis.

peace~
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mrbluto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
33. So the defense you're suggesting will be "He did it too?"
Who do you suggest Obama emulate next?

Pelosi? Reid? Lieberman?

It seems you're suggesting that the possibly weak or unprincibled behavior of others should set the bar for Obama.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. no, I'm not saying that at all. Or
at least I'm not trying to.

But people seem to be veering off on that tangent- so I must be failing to express myself as usual.

I'll try and say it again.

Should Obama support FISA? No- I do not believe he should-

If he DOES choose to vote in favor of FISA, especially if the 'immunity' clauses stay in, does that make him a useless peice of shit, who might still get my vote, but who deserves to be despised and malaigned at any opportunity?

Or, might he still be a decent president, and be able to make some positive changes and help us to start to pull ourselves together in SPITE of the fact that he has let me down on an important issue?

There is a difference between being disapointed in someone, and dis-owning them. There have been more than a few posts on DU that talk of his worthlessness as a candidate and Dem as a result of his STATEMENT on the upcoming FISA vote scheduled for the senate.

I was attempting to have people look at a person who would have disapointed them equally on this issue, but who still did a decent job as president-

Does this help?
I hope so-

thanks-
peace~
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. If he does not vote Nay on the FISA bill?
He can kiss my ass.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
43. Great. I think less of Bill Clinton now too. What is this some sort of seesaw?
Anything that a Clinton does counterbalances something Obama does? He's running as the candidate of "change and hope." When he fails to be the candidate of "change and hope" he deserves to be roundly criticized.

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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. who would you
like to see as president?

What do you expect from that person?

Will you abandon your chosen candidate every time they dissapoint you?

Have you ever had a viable candidate that fit all your criteria?


I'm sorry if you now think less of Bill Clinton- I was disapointed myself when I read this. But would you rather be ignorant? Would you rather carry around illusions of what a candidate can actually be? Does this completely negate any of the good he did?

I don't fault anyone for voicing disapointment and criticizing Obama when he does something that they don't agree with. There have been people here who are going over the top with their response to a 'statement'- And I was offering what I believe is a healthy comparison.

:shrug:

peace~
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. At some point, obama's record HAS to be his own
obama supporters have NO difficulty pointing to his "accomplishments" in the Illinois Senate and calling them HIS own--when there is enough information out there that shows he had a kingmaker that assigned him to pending legislation so that he could take the credit.
However, whenever he flubs HIS own Senate record--the fingers start pointing at anyone standing around saying "see, they did it to".
My word to those supporters...hold your candidates feet to the fire. You are the ones with the great expectations from this man...force him to do the right thing. If he does the right thing enough times...then perhaps he might just pick up a few of the supporters who really don't see him different than what we already have. Your enabling of him does not make things better.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
48. What year was that? It was probably after I'd already abandoned any "faith" I had in WJC
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 05:57 PM by kenzee13
...and yes, I'd read he signed, but it's among those things I've forgotten. WJC was a major disappointment in many ways, though yes, we were still slighly better off under a D than under an R -he's a great example of throwing a few scraps and bones for to keep the serfs from getting too restless.

As for this latest, I am not nearly as outraged at Obama as I am the Ds sitting right now in the House - if they want a Dem POTUS, they need to take the front line on issues that can be used to harm his campaign, then provide cover for him with a concerted front on the airways and talking head shows and in their Town Halls. He can then take the high road about no one - not even giant corporations - being above the law, and promising the best National Security teams/programs/blah blah whatever....goddess knows, there's enough on that front to blast the illegitimate Junta in power, what with most of the populace thinking President Codpiece is the worst ever.

(on edit, for clarity, I hope) I mean, what's he going to do, knowing - as I'm sure they all did - how everyone was going to vote - stand out there ahead of his Party and open himself to attack without any back-up, while the Congress-Critters CYAs?

And I agree with your last sentence.
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