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It just struck me tonight how horribly Vietnam affected me.

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bamademo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:30 PM
Original message
It just struck me tonight how horribly Vietnam affected me.
I was in junior high and high school during the war. Cute boys were being sent off to war. They actually showed the war in the 60's and 70's. I'll never forget the Kent State images or the images of the little children burned by the horrific weapons. I married a extremely screwed up vet who abused everything including me, his children and drugs and alcohol. I divorced him and never remarried but I've had a string of serial monogamous live-ins with men. I was so thankful when the war ended and all the right wing insanity went away. I never thought I'd have to live through such a bad time again even in my progessive city but militarily dependent city of Huntsville, Al.

Tonight I watched Platoon. It all came back. It's not any different, is it? I would hope so but it's all still so pointless, isn't it.

Adopt a Golden Retriever who needs a home. R.I.P. to my 2, Beau and Scarlett.
http://www.adoptagoldenatlanta.com/
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. i remember vietnam well. i was never
able to watch Platoon. i had to turn it off. did you see "The Deerhunter"?
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bamademo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I've never been able to watch it
I don't even know if a deer gets killed on screen. My Dad never hunted again after he took me to see Bambi. He cried also when his mother got killed. I can't watch Bambi or Old Yeller or The Yearling because I'm more sensitive to animal deaths then I am to humans. How crazy is that?
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. not crazy at all. i'm an
animal lover too. i prefer the company of animals to most people.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. Man who likes to hunt ...
... goes hunting with friends before being shipped out. Kills deer.

Goes to Vietnam.

Somehow lives through hell.

Comes back.

Goes hunting.

Gets deer in sights.

Can't shoot.

<end>
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Liberal Gramma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. Deerhunter: the single most upsetting movie I've ever seen
I thought it was really well done, but my body was telling me to get out of the theater NOW. My heartrate zoomed, I broke out into a cold sweat, my feet were twitching, and I couldn't sit still. I think the reason it had such a profound effect was that in the first part of the movie, you got to know and like all these kids, so when they went off to their doom in Nam it was like it happened to friends. And everyone was destroyed, even the ones who survived. A deeply moving film.
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. i didn't see it in the theater.
i saw it at home. it was election night 1980. reagan was elected and i had just learned that my son was going to join the navy. it was a very weird feeling.

another one that really got to me was "The Killing Fields".
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. and the repercussions from the present wars...
Edited on Wed Jun-25-08 08:37 PM by G_j
...terrible, terrible suffering for generations!
I too, cannot believe we have done this again.
:cry:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's not any different, but it is being kept under wraps this time around.
That is the travesty, and even with that, the majority of Americans supposedly don't want anymore of Iraq. Maybe they share your memories.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. Check out this shit
http://www.174ahc.org/sound.htm

Some times when I'm really drunk and sleep it all comes back
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. I could never figure a pattern...
Never been able to figure what triggers the nightmares and shit.

Not spicy food before bed, not booze or drugs, not time of year....

Just whenever....

Vietnam.... the gift that keeps on giving!
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
31. I listened to that "real-time."
I flew combat missions in support of operation Lam Son 719. That was some shit, that Lam Son 719.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
37. We need to stop affecting our society with war vets. We need to stop war.
Edited on Thu Jun-26-08 10:54 AM by L0oniX
Can't we have at least one generation that doesn't have a war? It's time to stop our government from abusing us by sending us to war over policy. How did that war against communism work out? Do you shop at communist China's local outlet -- Walmart? Vietnam wants to do business with us now. Maybe they will take over Target.

Our government continually shits on our vets. Who can blame the vets for going nuts or failing to hold a job or keep a family together? Now our vets are poisoned with depleted uranium and the government is still lying about it. I blame our government who uses us and throws us away. The very least our government can do is provide health care for our vets and they should provide any help needed to vets.

"Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy." -- Henry Kissinger
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. So, I'm an "infection"?
Thanks.

:eyes:
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. sorry ...I didn't mean to offend ...edited to a more appropriate word.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. Pointless? Depends on your perspective, I'm afraid. Even knowing
doesn't always help, but I think it makes reality easier to accept.

I did what I could for Christopher Gianni, but when he thought I wouldn't find out, he blew his brains out anyway. There was literally nothing more I could offer and he tried to spare me. But the guilt he felt over the killing he was ordered to do ... it didn't matter how well he accepted it reasonably - he was a destroyed soul.

But he was a proud soldier and if I did nothing else, I helped him preserve his dignity to the end. He was never going to find peace in this world - and no sacrifice on my part could save him.

I think we had the healthiest friendship we could; he was there for me at my father's funeral - that was no picnic. A network engineer, his proudest possession was a citation for saving a drowning stranger.

Gianni's service wasn't pointless, unless you ignore history and focus on each individual. In that case, you might as well surrender to existentialist angst ... I didn't give up that easily.
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bamademo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Wow! I'm so glad you were there for him.
You did the best you could but some people don't want to be in this current life. I don't think service was pointless. Most soldiers, and I know a lot since I work with them, do a great service to their country and I don't discount it. My P.O.S. ex was a spectacular bad example of a soldier.

Thanks and great karma for what you tried to to for your friend.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. I was hoping you'd also see the similarity. We do the best we can
Best wishes for all the happiness life has to offer.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. I wasn't there for it
But the pictures and the commentary from then could have been written today. Even WWII is coming back to bite us in the ass- It seems like every day Bush finds new ways to piss on the Nuremberg Trials, and Congress has the AUDACITY to say that they are good ideas.

Hell, even the Great Depression is making a comeback.

You'd think "never again" would mean something.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. Narrowly avoided the draft here, as I turned 19 in '70. In '69, I would have been #1.
Edited on Wed Jun-25-08 08:43 PM by faygokid
The first year of the draft lottery was 1969. It was a HUGE story. Many of us were confused; I turned 18 that year. They telecast the first drawing live, and the number 1 pick was September 14. I thought I was doomed - my birthday. Then I found out it was the year you were 19 that you got the number, and in 1970, that was 247. I was saved. You can look these up on Google; I don't need to. You don't forget numbers like that.

So very sorry about your experiences. Hoping whatever relationship you are now in is the right one, and the last one.

Got to love those Retrievers. Got three rescued dogs myself, but no Retrievers. Two junkyard doggies and a 15-year-old Pomeranian (don't ask). They are all notorious treat destroyers. All the best.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Guess what.
Edited on Wed Jun-25-08 08:48 PM by TahitiNut
It wasn't a movie.


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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. It was worse than a movie
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. No comparison.
No audience. One helluva lot longer than 90 minutes - when we woke up the next morning, we were still there. No audience. The smells. No audience. The weather. No audience. The letters from home - or not. No audience. The Mickey Mouse insanity. No audience. No applause. Nothin'. Absofuckinlutely nothin'.

Maybe I'm just old and irritable, but I find I have less and less patience with people who never set foot in Nam talking about how they "remember" ... or how bad it was. Horse shit. Tell that to the wives and girlfriends who couldn't be bothered waiting. Tell that to the people who took the draftee's job. Tell it to the folks who treated vets like lepers. "Remember"? Yeah. Right.

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
43. Comparatively I would suggest that the Vietnamese people had it worst of all
Most of their wives and girlfriends rather than not waiting for their boys to come home were on the battlefield fighting and dying along side their men in their epic battle for freedom. After all, they were already home.

It was a true David and Goliath story.

Don
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Well, isn't that why the American public stepped forward to aid the boat people?
Edited on Thu Jun-26-08 12:24 PM by TahitiNut
Oh. Wait. We didn't. (Well... *I* did ... but I sure didn't see many others.)

:eyes:

I think "some people" should either put up or shut up.
I didn't see those American "wives and girlfriends" doing shit. Nothing.


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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. My best friend's two brothers were killed in Vietnam...
They were together and killed at the same time. We were in high school. She was called down to the principal's office one day. A few minutes later, we heard her scream. She didn't stop for a long time and she was never the same.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. Those images you remember were real film that had to be flown back here daily for the evening news
From Southeast Asia. Think about that.

We now have instantaneous satellite fed video and we aren't allowed to see what is going on in Iraq.

Must be pretty bad there.

Don
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bamademo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. They don't even care about it anymore
It's pretty bad.

I'm really sorry about...I can't even go...
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parasim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. I was just a kid during that war...
but what affected me most was when one the of the cool, older kids on the block got drafted. A short time after he came home, he ended up lighting his house on fire with his mother asleep in her bed. When the firemen came, he was seen on the front porch briefly and then turned around and walked back into the burning building. Both of them perished as it burned to the ground. That's one of my memories of Vietnam.

Around the same time, my alcoholic father, who fought on the front lines of both World War II and Korea, would go into flashbacks when he was drunk.

I hate war.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thank You Lyndon B. Johnson. So much death and destruction
for a pack of lies.
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bamademo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I have to respect LBJ for having a concious...
...unlike GWB. God, how arrogant and stupid can one man be? I only hope to live to be old so I can see history give him what he deserves and the Crimson Tide wins 2 or 3 more championships!
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. When one reads the butchers bill
GWB is a penny-anti piker compared to LBJ.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. What I think bamademo meant was--
--that LBJ had quite a few guilt pangs about the war. Unfortunately, he worried that if he were to be pictured as "soft" the rest of his legislation would never get through. Bush is a amoral sociopath.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. So for the appearences of not being soft to protect his
legislative program, he killed 38,000 Americans, wounded another 200000 plus killing or wounding 4,000,000 Vietnames in the process?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. At least he felt crappy about it n/t
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. Exactly. A lot of younger people, including some DU'ers, think LBJ was great because

he signed some very progressive legislation, Civil Rights act and Medicare.

They don't remember the war dragging on and on, year after year, young men and their families and friends in terror they would be drafted to fight in a useless war that wasn't accomplishing anything.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
33. LBJ was hardly the only one... Nixon comes to mind!!!!!
:grr:
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. I think we American's are more afffected..
Edited on Wed Jun-25-08 10:02 PM by stillcool47
by the legacy of war than we realize. For every single soldier there is a ripple effect. Please...Let me know if this post is too long, and I will edit it...

Reevaluating Society's Perception of Shell Shock:
By Annessa Cathleen Stagner West Texas State University

The combination of traditional fighting techniques and new technology in World War I forced both soldiers and officers to face devastating situations that tested not only their courage, but also their mental strength as well. While society had taught men to be tough and brave at all times, many broke upon enduring the horrifying environment of the trenches. It is obvious that men's ability to hold on to such an extreme ideal of manhood was unrealistic; however, many men tried. Jessica Meyers quoted Private Miles, who explained his emotional conflict saying, "I was frightened out of my life at nighttime. I was jellified, but I was more afraid of people knowing that I was afraid-- just a sort of bravado-- I mustn't show them I was afraid." <1> Like private Miles, many men tried to suppress their emotions, stay in control, and live up society's standard of masculinity. The devastating impact of war on soldiers, however, quickly forced society to confront the inability of soldiers to maintain society's idealistic courage. Some returning soldiers suffered through nightmares, while others suffered physically, exhibiting nervous twitches, blindness, or limb dysfunction. <2> In 1915, physician C. S. Myers unknowingly acknowledged the result of soldier's mental conflict between idealistic courage and survival leading to a form of nervous disorder, which he termed shell shock. <3>

While the government did not intend to allow shell shock to hold any legitimacy among its troops, experienced soldiers' and officers' traumatic experiences convinced to advocate for proper treatment of the shell-shocked soldiers. Virtually ignoring the existence of shell shock within common soldiers initially, Peter Leese suggested the government proceeded to improve treatment only as a result of strong public opinion.

The large number of soldiers affected by shell shock continues to engage World War I historians even today. "The heightened code of masculinity that dominated in wartime was intolerable to surprisingly large numbers of men." <4> Nearly 80,000 men in Britain were diagnosed with shell shock during the War, and the number of cases continued to rise after the War ended.
Some estimates, including undiagnosed soldiers, claim 800,000 British cases and 15,000 American cases. <5> Shell shock was not just a disease of the common soldier either. Myra Schock acknowledged "historians have generally taken it for granted that officers experienced shell shock in far greater numbers than soldiers of other ranks." <6> Inevitably numerous soldiers from all ranks were diagnosed with shell shock, thus having a tremendous impact on all of society.
http://www.wfa-usa.org/new/shellshock.htm




I've seen bodies ripped to pieces by bullets, blown into millions of scraps by bombs, and pierced by booby traps. I’ve smelled the stench of bodies burned. I’ve heard the air sound like it was boiling from rounds flying back and forth. I’ve lived an insanity others should never live..."

-- Dennis Tenety, Fire in the Hole----




●-Michael C.C. Adams, The Best War Ever: America and World War II About 25-30 percent of WWII casualties were psychological cases; under very sever conditions that number could reach as high as 70-80 percent.
In Italy, mental problems accounted for 56 percent of total casualties. On Okinawa, where fighting conditions were particularly horrific, 7,613 Americans died, 31,807 sustained physical wounds, and 26, 221 were mental casualties.-Adams, 95
Trying to repress feelings, they drank, gambled suffered paralyzing depression, and became inarticulately violent. A paratrooper’s wife would “sit for hours and just hold him when he shook.”
Afterward, he started beating her and the children: “He became a brute.” And they divorced —-Adams, 150



Haunted
by Mark D. Van Ells
Did the soldiers of the Good War really come home psychologically unscathed by the horror and stress they experienced? Or did they simply suffer in silence?
by Mark D. Van Ells

For many, continued exposure to combat conditions wore them down. "It was not going into battle the one time, but the going back again and again, that finally got to you," " a sailor from the USS Yorktown told Jones in a Honolulu bar in May 1942. A navy veteran from Texas compared his service on a destroyer off the Tokyo mainland during the Okinawa campaign to a death sentence:

They strap him in the electric chair, he can see the warden's hand on the switch, he knows he is going to die, and he waits all day. Then at the end of the day they come and get him, take him back to his cell, and all night the other prisoners try to kill him. The next day they come get him and strap him in the chair and he expects to die again--this goes on and on day and night for three months....

---------------------------------
Despite the host of conflicting opinions about battle fatigue, few people questioned that combat had profound effects on the minds of soldiers. "We were all psychotic, inmates of the greatest madhouse of history," claimed Manchester. Two psychiatrists who worked with veterans after the war noted that "mild traumatic states...are almost universal among combat troops immediately after battle."

Some aspects of war are timeless. The emotional trauma it causes is one of them

http://www.americainwwii.com/stories/haunted.htm


Da Nang, Vietnam. A young Marine private waits on the beach during the Marine landing. 08/03/1965

How many Americans served in each branch of the military in 1944?
Army 7,994,750
Navy 2,981,365
Marines 475,604
How many Americans were drafted? 11,535,000 (61.2%)
How many Americans volunteered for service? 6,332,000 (38%)

The Numbers we know
Number of Vietnam Era Veterans. (Active duty Aug. 5, 1964 � March 28, 1973 or in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964)
8,740,654
Americans were killed or MIA.
58,148
wounded.
304,704

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_US_soldiers_fought_in_the_Vietnam_War


Interestingly, the least amount of data found on the various termed mental injuries, was the data on the Vietnam war. Instead of war-related, the Post Vietnam Syndrome seems to have been caused by poor discipline and the lack of public support on their return from war.(???) Not surprising there is still a debate about the numbers of Vietnam Veterans that experience, or are still experiencing results from that particular causation.


Battle Continues Over Vietnam PTSD Numbers

By Amanda Gardner HealthDay Reporter
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art...
THURSDAY, Aug. 23 (HealthDay News) -- Decades after the last U.S. troops departed Vietnam, the debate still rages on how many veterans of that conflict suffered or still suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder
-----------------
Last August, a paper published in the prestigious journal Science downgraded the estimated percentage of Vietnam veterans suffering from PTSD to an 18.7 percent lifetime prevalence rate and 9.2 percent current rate. The variance, the authors stated, was due to differences in how they defined PTSD.
-------------------------------------
Somewhere in all this heated back-and-forth, Dohrenwend contends that the main messages of his 2006 paper have been lost.

"The most important results have been underemphasized, and that is the dose/response relationship, and that's about as close as you can come to a causal relationship," he said. "The other thing is the rate of 1-in-5 war-related onset of PTSD and 1-in-10 still current after the war of impairing PTSD. That is far from trivial. This is a heavy cost by any count"
******
The syndrome we call Vietnam combat reaction should be classified as a neurosis by virtue of being precipitated by repeated severe psychic trauma and developing over a relative prolonged period of time. . . . Another distinctive trait of this syndrome is the nearly identical case histories of its development from men of widely separated units whose only common denominator is participating in combat in Vietnam.




Vietnam War Veterans Win Legal Victory
(July 20, 2007)--Vietnam War veterans who were exposed to Agent Orange and contracted a form of leukemia have won a legal victory.


A federal appeals court in San Francisco has ordered the Department of Veterans Affairs to pay retroactive benefits to those veterans.

It's not yet known how much the department would have to pay under the order or how many veterans would be affected.

The VA agreed in 2003 to extend benefits to Vietnam vets diagnosed with chronic lymphocytic leukemia, known as CLL, which has been linked to Agent Orange exposure.

But the VA did not re-examine previous claims from veterans suffering from the ailment, nor did it pay them retroactive benefits, which was at the heart of the dispute.

http://www.kwtx.com/nationalnews/headlines/8626847.html


What is Agent Orange?

http://hss.co.san-bernardino.ca.us/va/1-AgentOrange.htm
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. The insanity never went away.
Redstone
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Lint Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. I was drafted in 1967. They found a medical problem and I was
able to keep from going to Nam. Some of my best friends died there for nothing. We were told the 'Domino Effect' had to be stopped so we do not lose the war and have to speak Vietnamese for the rest of our lives. It was bullshit then and it is bullshit today.
It's bullshit that moves faster today because of technology. :dem:
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
32. I've been feeling that way since before the US invaded Iraq... it all came back
Edited on Thu Jun-26-08 09:06 AM by Breeze54
including the anger!! Lots of anger.... :grr:

Thanks for sharing that, bamademo... :hug:

:(
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Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
35. You wrote "It's not any different, is it?" There's ONE thing that's different.
I was still too young to understand Vietnam when it was occurring. I was 11 years old when Saigon fell, and I so remember that, but I didn't really understand that.

What I do know now, through reading about that very tumultuous period and seeing countless documentaries is that people weren't afraid to go into the streets and riot and shake things up a bit when they got completely fed up with the madness.

Many of here have taken part in marches and vigils and rallies, but my perception is that there has been much less civil disobedience over this current mess than there was with Iraq. We the people, as a whole, have somehow been reduced to shrugging our shoulders and saying "oh well, what can we really do about it?" We have allowed ourselves to be neutered.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. It'd be interesting to really know ...
... how much of that protesting was against having their own (or a friend's ) ass on the line in the draft. I find it interesting that the most precipitous period of the termination of our involvement was subsequent to the lottery, which exposed the butts of the more affluent. It's important to remember that it wasn't just the "Top 1%" who had a Fortunate Son a la George W. Bush. Easily the most affluent 10-25% of families were in a position, to one degree or another, to shield their draft age sons from the draft with one of several deferment routes. Before 1969, the draft clearly weighed most heavily on the least affluent ... sons, not daughters.

I've always regarded the tragedy at Kent State as an evil irony ... in a sense, it was a confrontation between guys who'd joined the National Guard (many to avoid the draft) and students who, facing the end of the semester and (to some degree) the end of a short term deferment, faced the draft.

I personally regarded the anti-war protests as far more anti-draft than anti-war. NIMBY.

It's too easy to abdicate the most fundamental of obligations inherent in keeping a democracy: participation in our own self-governance. We seem to treat voting as participation (it's just not enough) and don't even do that.

The materialistic corruption seems apparent. We seem to think we can buy privilege ... but ignore the surrender of rights and liberties.
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Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Too late to edit my reply above, so making a clarification:
I wrote: but my perception is that there has been much less civil disobedience over this current mess than there was with Iraq.

"...with Iraq" was supposed to read "...with Vietnam."

Ya'all probably know what I meant, but just wanted to clarify.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
36. I hope there are a few differences in how we see the soldiers.
I was in the Army 1968-1971. I hope we can refrain from blaming the troops that are fighting this time, and try to treat them with a little respect and sympathy for what they are going through at the orders of our current commander in chief.

mark
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-26-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
42. My F4 kept me out of Vietnam but my friends came back very changed and told me everything...
I didn't want to know about what they did. """free fire zones""" Many of my friends who were drafted told me they killed anyone, men women and children in the area if one of their group got shot. I know that the same thing has been happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.

One friend used to pick blue berries with me in the summer, another used to go roller skating with me every Saturday and when my cousin came back he joined the county police force and told me he was going to get back on society for sending him over there. I have more friends that came back and a few that didn't but the ones that did were never the same and never will be. I hate policy wars and what they do to our society. It would be bad enough to go to war against a country that actually attacked the USA but it would at least be necessary. Can't we have just one generation that doesn't have to go kill people?
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