Do you want peace?

and is this a matter of conscience --- ??



The only diet for a peacemaker is a vegetarian diet
Posted on Jul 8, 2008 05:50am CST.

On the Road to Peace by John Dear S.J. Tuesday, July 8, 2008

In Fort Lauderdale, Fla., last week to speak at the National Convention of Unitarian Universalists, I met my old friend Bruce Friedrich. We spent eight memorable months together in a tiny jail cell, along with Philip Berrigan, for our 1993 Plowshares disarmament action. A former Catholic Worker, Bruce is now one of the leaders of PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. He gave a brilliant workshop on the importance of becoming a vegetarian, something I urge everyone to consider.

I became a vegetarian with a few other Jesuit novices shortly after I entered the Jesuits in 1982 and later wrote a pamphlet for PETA, "Christianity and Vegetarianism." I based my decision solely on Francis Moore Lappe's classic work, Diet for a Small Planet, a book that I think everyone should read.

In it, Lappe, the great advocate for the hungry, makes an unassailable case that vegetarianism is the best way to eliminate world hunger and to sustain the environment.

At first glance, we wonder how that could be. But it's undisputable. A hundred million tons of grain go yearly for biofuel -- a morally questionable use of foodstuffs. But more than seven times that much -- some 760 million tons according to the United Nations -- go into the bellies of farmed animals, this to fatten them up so that sirloin, hamburgers and pork roast grace the tables of First-World people. It boils down to this. Over 70 percent of U.S. grain and 80 percent of corn is fed to farm animals rather than people


http://ncrcafe.org/node/1965

to grow food for us and scraps for chickens to make into manure to make into fertilizer to grow veggies...
while eating some of the chickens who grew on the veggies made with the fertilizer of their parents.

One of the benefits of having chickens is you get their manure for the garden rather than buying chemicals to put on your garden. I have a stack of horse manure from a friend aging and composting for next yr's garden also. "Since when"? Treated properly it is great fertilizer.

Problem with factory farms is that it is difficult to treat manure properly and safely in such large quantities.

Do a quick search on compost manure and you will find lots of info.

Edited to add this link: http://gardening.wsu.edu/stewardship/compost/manure/manure2.htm
"So, how risky is the use of manure in gardens and compost piles? If you use fresh manure in the garden, there is a small risk that pathogens which cause disease may contaminate garden vegetables. The risk is greatest for root crops, like radishes and carrots, and leafy vegetables, such as lettuce, where the edible part touches the soil. Careful washing and/or peeling will remove most of the pathogens responsible for the disease. Thorough cooking is even more effective."

Here's a place in Canada:
http://www.jollyfarmer.com/composted%20cow%20w%20peat.htm



http://www.newmilfordfarms.com/products/
http://www.newmilfordfarms.com/media/file/action/previewMedia/frmMediaId/113/



Maine: http://www.coastofmaine.com/soils.shtml#schoodic

Composted manure is used as fertilizer all the time and, if handled and used properly, is safe and suitable. What makes you think it is "unsuitable"?

The microorganisms have transformed it.

Eat rice? If it was grown anywhere in Asia, it was probably fertilized with manure.

as "fertilizer" . . .

has that worked?

Natural fertilizer= composted plants and animal manure.
Petroleum "fertilizer"= what?

Yes . .. I think women would take us back to NOT ripping up huge sections of the earth ---

overturn plants back into the soil ---

Not baiting but seriously, composted is fine, esp on a small scale where you know what you are putting into your garden. Big farm near where I live sprays liquidized manure over their fields to fertilize it which is nasty. But, on a smaller individualized basis, manure from veggie eating animals/birds is veggie waste and very useful for crops.

Have you visited the Gardeners Group here? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=246
Or Rural/Farm forum?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=268

Lots of interesting stuff and people doing all sorts of good stuff.

I don't see that nature captured fecal matter over its plantings ---

we don't need to either.

Additionally, we can see have the "use" end grows when the exploitation grows ---

exploit cattle and you have a market for "leather" furniture ---

fur coats --- and if you desensitize yourself to the end product, you'll probably

also desensitize yourself to the exploitation.

So you are against planting plants since nature provided us with plants without us planting them? Oh kay.

And yes, animals poop. Things grow in their poop. Naturally.

Again, check out the gardening forum and rural/farm forums as they have some interesting stuff there.

birds pick them up --

What happens naturally isn't what we're talking about ---

dumping petroleum all over our fields --- ripping up huge acres of land ---

dumping on cow manure . . .

where does nature do that?

That would have a huge impact.

I'm in my 7th year as a vegetarian and damned proud of it!

It's the best decision I ever made. For my health, for my weight, for my pocketbook, for the suffering animals in the factory farming industry, for the environment, for the hungry people of the world, there is no better way I have found to do greater good.

How easily dismissed this very important step is . . .

to end violence . . .

to help animals --- to help the planet --- to move one step towards peace ---

This comes from the Catholic Church, as well ---

Wouldn't it be great if they stressed more of the theory of Jesus being an Essene --

a vegetarian --

It doesn't have to be a never/always sort of thing. When getting preached at, or implied that if you ever eat meat you don't want peace, a typical reaction of even sometimes meat eaters is to roll our eyes.

It's your decision for you. Not for me. Don't your dare attempt to shove your self-righteous morality down my throat. :grr:

Gawd, it's attitudes like your that make me realize just how much I despise activist vegetarians and vegans. You can't just be one, you have to proselytize while you're at it to convince others of your righteousness. People with your attitude are no different from religious fundamentalists of any stripe.

Correction: It was a suggestion. I never proselytize. This is the first time on DU that I have ever mentioned that I am a vegetarian or asked anyone to even open their minds to it

Your reaction to my post is way overblown. I don't know what makes you so touchy and emotional, but it's clear you have issues to work out that have nothing to do with me. And I really don't give a shit what you eat.

Don't bother replying because I won't be reading it. On the other hand, post what you want. I don 't give a damn.

:argh:

"The only diet for a peacemaker is a vegetarian diet."

That's just as ridiculous as a declaration I've often heard on the carnivorous side of the eating equation: "The ONLY way to eat steak is RARE!"

There's no only way to any end.

Redstone

Carnivores would rather kill the vegetarians off (and eat them) than admit the folly of meat eating.

that my financial situation has forced me onto a temporarily vegetarian (actually, all-spaghetti) diet. :)

I still drink protein powder shakes cuz I do make a token effort to work out once in a while.

I've traveled with vegans. With all their pills, powders, and supplements. That's not dinning. It's a freakin science project. They are overly concerned with their fiber intake so they can actually produce a solid pellet. That pellet is just one step away from their next meal. Many scientists say that the dinosaurs were doomed anyway. They ate too close their asshole. Their were herbivores (vegans) that only ate vegetation. Then there were carnivores that only ate the herbivores and sometimes other carnivores. Their poop fed the vegetation that the herbivores ate which made them food for the carnivores. A drought could have wiped them all out. No vegetation and the herbivores die off leaving no food for the carnivores. They turn to cannibalization before eating themselves into extinction. Nature corrected this problem by introducing omnivores. Omnivores have a few more steps between their ass and their mouth. They also have other options the carnivores and herbivores didn't. Shrinking the food chain is a step towards extinction. Not longevity of the species. We also have global warming threatening to create that drought that could have wiped out the Dinosaurs. Now is not exactly the best time to be converting to vegitarianism.

it's a suggestion that omnivores are doing something bad by eating meat. That you can't be a progressive and an omnivore. That eating meat is wrong despite the fact that the human body was designed to do so.

over and again that has been proven.

Nor do I think you this should be put in terms of "bad" unless you mean your health --

it does badly effect the earth.

No, I don't think you can be a progressive and continue on eating animals, ignoring

the violence behind it.

This is exploitation of animals ---

Exploitation of nature ---

It's a step that would help --

Eve trying to cope with the violence of animal exploitation/bloodletting . . .

still stands today with an APPLE in her hand.

Unless you do, you're not part of the valid animal-eating crowd --

I doubt we have any DU'ers here who would jump on a squirrel and eat it raw ---

Or chase down a deer for a big bite of it --- and sit on the land eating it ---

Or do we???

Unless you do, you're not part of the valid non-animal-eating crowd --

I doubt we have many DU'ers here who only eat vegetables raw ---

and sit on the land eating it ---



How many herbivores bake bread? How many herbivores cook any food?

1) Do you believe "the event in the Garden of Eden" was real?
2) "Eve trying to cope with the violence of animal exploitation/bloodletting . . . still stands today with an APPLE in her hand." What? The story uses an apple to show that humans shouldn't be violent against animals, just apples? What?

I am almost to the point of thinking you are just messing with us.

It's never been 'proven' that we didn't evolve to eat animals. That's because it's very, very, VERY straightforward and easy to see that we are adapted to an omnivorous diet. Among other things, our gut is not that of a herbivore, our dentition is omnivorous, we have hydrochloric acid in our stomachs, and we are totally unable to break down cellulose...we can't break beta-glycosidic bonds.

Vegetarianism can be very good for the human body, as long as all the essentials are included in the diet (not that a poor omnivorous diet would be any better) and, with a little extra consideration, a vegan diet can also work and possibly be very beneficial. But don't pretend that such is the natural human condition, because it's not, and don't claim scientific validation for these exclusive dietary choices when there is not only none to be found but the truth is the exact opposite.

We're naturally omnivores. If you want to depart from that fact of our species' evolution, all the best to you.

Peace can only come after justice. Vegetarianism is an issue to be debated after justice. Right now one billion human beings equal in intelligence, spirit, and capacity to any American live on less than $1 a day.

A little piece of Jordan
A big piece of Iraq
A bigger piece of India
'Cause Cheney has my back

A little chunk of Egypt
A big one from Iran
And don't forget I want Tibet
And then Afghanistan!


(with apologies to Mel Brooks)

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Exploitation of animals is harming the planet ---

Yes . . . I'm now sophisticated . . . and a dispenser of guilt upon others . . .

but you're avoiding the subject.

If you have concern for the planet, consider giving up animal-eating.

I guess there are a-holes even on DU. And I don't use that language lightly. I'm sorry some of these people are so rude. Unbelievable.

Yes . . . they're quite anxious to show their courage in exploiting animals ---

and ignoring a call to conscience.




:)

fortunately it's just another bullshit rant from a typically preachy and arrogant holier-than-thou-meat-eating-curs vege-freak. and one of the deluded theist kind to boot. there's absolutely nothing such a person could bleat on about that i would pay any attention to or give a rat's hairy ass about...:shrug:

Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy. :evilgrin:

something simply exploitable.

Might be George Bush putting you next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.

:evilgrin:

I give you the wisdom of Papa Roach:

"It's in our nature to destroy ourselves,
It's in our nature to kill ourselves.
It's in our nature to destroy each other,
It's in our nature to KILL! KILL! KILL!"

I realize that a rock band is not necessarily St. Augustine or Aristotle, but it serves to illustrate the point. Human beings are violent by nature. Our ascension up the food chain was accomplished by mass extinctions carried out by ourselves. Having subjugated all the fauna on this planet greater than ourselves, we have turned on the smaller species. We eat meat, we have for millennia unnumbered. Vegetarians do not necessarily act in a manner any less violent than omnivorous people (consider Hitler)

Surely we eat too much meat in our culture, a cutting back is indeed in order. But the argument that vegetarianism is morally superior in and of itself is specious and flawed.

Only diet for a peacemaker is to become a vegetarian...

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It's hard to believe that anyone would, but the world is an imperfect place.

I avoid associating with such people, though, if I can.

It's often remarked that putting vegetation through a cow (e.g.) and then eating the cow is more wasteful in terms of land and water use than eating vegetables directly. That's true of course (law of entropy says the more transactions, the more lost to overhead), but in a certain way it's false, too.

Animal flesh is a very compact protein storage mechanism. So eating a small bit of animal or bird is a very convenient way to get the hit of protein we need.

Where we go wrong is that we don't eat a small bit, we eat *enormously* more than we need to. We eat for the sake of taste rather than nutrition. And it causes a lot of physio problems. Of course, if we eat lots of carbs instead, that causes physio problems too - obesity, type-2 diabetes, and tooth decay being prominent.

What turned me to veggie-ism was refuting the sociobiology fascists back in the '70s. In order to successfully criticize what they were peddling, I had to look at mammals more carefully. And what I found was what I already vaguely "knew" but didn't really know: that other mammals are much more like us than we humans want to admit. They think and solve problems, they experience at least the same "great" emotions (love, curiosity, fear, etc) that we experience (we don't know how to test for the minor ones, so they might experience them too), and at least some of them are self-aware. Given that most of the remaining differences between humans and non-humans are to the credit of the non-humans, I had to conclude that eating mammals was too much like being a cannibal. So I stopped.

I still ate birds and fish until I started feeding the local birds in the winter at my windowsill. Several chickadees grew to feel safe enough to eat from my hand, even without my "freezing" first, and one or two of them even if I moved my hand while they were sitting on my palm. It took more than a conventional "birdbrain" to perform that level of analysis. Other birds never succeeded in doing that - the slightest move from me, even if the window were closed, and they'd scatter in a panic. But what one fool can do, another can - even if it takes longer. So, eventually I stopped eating birds, too.

Other creatures are still on my menu in theory, but in practice they seem to be off it too.