Torture

Torture. The very word conjures up a sense of loathing – not only for the act itself, but for those willing to participate in the endeavor.

One can only wonder what kind of person willingly engages in inflicting pain on others. But in the wondering, one can’t help but get a sense of exactly what kind of person that is.

When I hear the word “torture” – after the requisite few moments spent resisting the attendant gag reflex – I picture the members of the current administration, who have not only knowingly and willingly led our nation into this most heinous of crimes against humanity, but truly epitomize the type of slimy creatures who sanction such blatant barbarism.

One might be easily misled into believing that those who condone such behavior do so as the result of having temporarily quashed a deeply-rooted sense of morality in order to pursue the “greater good” – or, even more misguided, a belief that patriotism and a sincere desire to protect our nation’s safety underlies the use of torture as simply a distasteful means to a totally justifiable end.

But the truth of the matter is far simpler and, in the final analysis, far more damning.

Our nation’s current willingness to wallow in the depths of depravity is not due to over-zealousness in ensuring the safety of its citizens. It is the result of our government being run by a bunch of sociopathic misfits, whose own shortcomings have been given free rein to manifest themselves in the worst of ways.

One need look no further than the pRresident, his administration, and the PNAC-adherents who have not simply turned a blind-eye to the use of torture, but have promoted its use with an enthusiasm reminiscent of social misfits as passively-aggressive as Vlad the Impaler.

When one analyzes not only the act of torture itself, but the people responsible for its promotion, a picture emerges that is all too clear in its obviousness, and all too disgusting in its conclusion.

I can’t help but remember Donald Rumsfeld’s complaint that forcing a Gitmo detainee to stand for hours was no different than his own necessity to stand for hours at his desk while working. In Rumsfeld’s worm’s-eye-view, standing in a room that is temperature-controlled to ensure maximum comfort in the midst of well-appointed surroundings, along with the freedom to move around, use a bathroom when required, as well as the ability to eat, drink – or even sit down when he wants to – are somehow equivalent to the torture being inflicted on other human beings who haven’t even been charged, no less found guilty of, crimes against our nation.

And Donald Rumsfeld, as amply demonstrated by his inane ramblings, is the perfect case-in-point when addressing the topic of torture – because he is typical of the flaccid male who, by way of his anxiousness to cause pain for others, hopes to mask his own lack of manhood.

Look at them, those who have embraced the use of torture – and I do mean take a cold, hard look.

George W. Bush, a “man” who didn’t have what it takes to fulfill his military service, even when his daddy used his influence to ensure that service was made as cushy as possible.

The typical PNACer, as embodied by Bill Kristol, a “man” who couldn’t survive the excruciating pain of a hangnail.

Dick Cheney, whose idea of torture is being served coffee with skim milk instead of cream.

And, as if any further examples were necessary, I give you Darrell Issa – the poster boy of the dickless-and-confused – who dismissed torture in a hearing before the House Judiciary Committee by saying “we treat patients worse than we treat al-Qaeda”. Consider the source; this from a “man” who hasn’t stopped whining since his mother withdrew her teat from his mewling mouth decades ago, a “man” who obviously believes that treating US hospital patients badly is the same as waterboarding or burying someone alive, a “man” who would sell his country’s most sensitive secrets if threatened with being forced to eat slightly singed toast washed down with tepid water served, oh-so-inappropriately, in a wine glass.

These are the people who gleefully encourage torture; people who know that their own claim to personal fortitude in the face of the worst possible circumstances is a sham; people who know that their own self-professed strength of character would not stand up to being even slightly inconvenienced, no less actually tortured; in short, "men" who seek refuge from their own cowardice by promoting torture, hoping that this pitiable stance will serve to obscure the fact that they would willingly sell out their own children if it meant being spared a moment of pain.

Look at them – and look at them again: the proponents of torture, the cheerleaders of pain, the so-called do-gooders who hope to hide their own all-too-questionable manhood behind a façade of being “courageous enough” to step beyond the bounds of decency under the guise of patriotism. Look at them, and you will see the unvarnished truth – and it is not a pretty sight.

Many Americans wonder if these torturers have any sense of guilt, if they are plagued by the shame that any normal human being would feel.

The truth is that they do feel guilty, and live with shame every day – not for what they have done or caused others to do, but for who and what they are.

While incapable of remorse, which would require possession of a moral compass which they obviously lack, they DO live in fear of being held to account – not for their actions, but their inability to act as men, along with being exposed not as criminals, but as the whimpering cowards they know themselves to be.

Show me a man who promotes the use of torture, and I'll show you a man who isn't a man - and knows it.

Impeachment would be a wonderful thing. But being indicted for war crimes – a net that, once cast, would capture a far wider range of deserving fish – would be the ultimate justice meted out to those who have shamed our nation, and everything it once stood for.

Bring THAT on, and I will rejoice in its initiation – not to mention the satisfaction I will revel in when it results in the ultimately well-deserved consequences.

because the torture was done in our name.

the memory of those who served honorably.


they made our nation one that countenances torture....


as an aside, can you ever IMAGINE Pat Robertson or Phreddy Phelps saying anything like : "God has taken his protection away from our country because we allow torture."

which do you think would displease God more....two people of the same sex wanting to be together all their lives or the torture of helpless people.?

All I can say is...I'm glad you're on MY side!

Perfect and unmistakably right...

Thank you!

K&R

:patriot:

I can (sadly) tell you.

You have hit it pretty well in your post; frightened persons, but it goes deeper than that, than the over-compensation for fear. It's a mirror image of love. Which is not hate, or mostly fear, although fear is the largest part of it, but lack of love. One goes beyond fear and compensatory behaviour for fear, into knots of justification, rationalization, etc. It goes into its opposite- it's easy to know, if you merely use a mirror. The mirror version, the downward-traveling version (away from love, into selfishness) is the intent to destroy the other, not to build the other. Predators know. Hunters observe the behavior of their targets, notice trends and repetitions, and take advantage of these weaknesses. The majority of things in existence have manipulation vectors, or as entire systems, tipping points. Edit: A complete person, having compassion for the needs and experience of the other, sees these same trends and vectors, these weaknesses, and tries to help the other into a higher place of living.

Those who cannot create, who are under layers of denial of love and lack of love, who are more and more purely predators, spend their time taking advantage of the weak and tipping points of others, and their systems.

They are even happy with negative attention, as any attention at all is better than none at all. Negative attention/energy becomes their food, destruction their sense of personal power (bred as you know from the sense of powerlessness and ego compensation against the knowledge of powerlessness, of not fitting in). They mock, they deride, they subterfuge, they gossip (destruction of relations and opportunities), they isolate, alienate, and deprive. They disenfranchise, create the sense of powerlessness, and through repetition of these tactics, intend to destroy their targets. This is of course what Rove, Bush, and friends are doing to the US. Make no mistake, CIA psychological tactics are at work here, as they've been at work in other countries in the past. Recontextualization is an important tool of negativity, as is seduction into the willingness to set aside personal mores/integrity/inclinations.

Predators are sickened by love and community, as much as we are sickened by true predatory behaviour. :shrug: We experience joy at finding and giving love; they experience the mirror of this, in control and destruction. They are best avoided, but right now, we obviously cannot do so.

Predators, wishing to exercise control over others and to live without accountability/reminders of their loveless state (in other words, the rest of us), create causes and conditions in which to realize their aims.

You have to remember, there are people out there spending a lot of their time finding ways to make things worse for the rest of us. Understanding their tactics, without using them in return, allows for educated decisions and the setting aside of fear (as the nation is still in fear from 9/11, which has not fully settled, as anyone who has first been punched in the face finds a new vulnerability, and might not know what to do about it excepting to deny the possibility that it could happen again).

They must bring all things down to their level.

If lots of people really wanted to eat human flesh or have sex with children would those behaviors then be considered acceptable? A democratic or might makes right authorization?

Like firebombing and atomic bombing civilian populations to get revenge or to hasten capitulation acceptable to enough people to pass muster? In a world at war perhaps.

And are torture and sadism then positive survival traits in a bloodthirsty conflicted world? Or merely now legitimate forms of "pursuit of happiness" expressions? Dark ages of fear because of the exploitation of the human emotion over reason. And the sadness is that it is promoted by bystanders as war profiteering calculations.

Although negativity often attempts to recontextualize or even force others into acting negatively. Bear the blows and retain integrity, at all costs.

There are simply not enough votes in the Senate for an impeachment to lead to
a conviction. Should it go ahead, it would be deserved, but with no more chance
of success than Bill Clinton's impeachment. It would be more than the punitive
exercise that Clinton's impeachment was, but with an identical outcome.

Starting a major, years-long invasion of another country for purely political and
economic reasons, on the other hand, along with condoning outlawed torture methods
that have led to questionable information, is indeed a case for the Hague. Start to
rip my fingernails out one by one, and I might tell you where those WMD are, too.
The information I give will be somewhat less than reliable, though.

As for torture, listening to Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, the combined talk show hosts of
National Hate Radio and Fox Noise, and for eight years---now THAT constitutes torture
most cruel and foul!

We all need to consider what is being done in our name because in many ways this goes beyond the horror of the act and endangers all of us. Unfortunately there will be no day of reckoning. Too many people on both sides of the aisle know that the heads that would roll might be theirs. (I'm talking to you Jane Harmon and your buddies.)

I've just been reading a discussion by lawyers that can be found at Balkinization. It seems that bush-cheney made sure that language was put into memos that would grant them immunity. To get that language meant hiring and firing certain lawyers, and those lawyers now willing to talk are making cheap excuses for their actions.

If you haven't seen http://ptnine.com/blog/node/329">this video I highly recommend it. It's long, but insightful. I came away liking Jane Mayer; nevertheless, her attitude confuses me. She somehow believes that Cheney's paranoia and stated fear for the safety of the country excuses him while she freely admits that he willingly broke the law. Also, the idea that no one will be held accountable for any of this receives the Washington shrug. "Oh well...so some laws were broken...so some peoples' lives were ruined...so the rule of law no longer means a damn thing...oh well."

Everything that has happened is wrong. People at this moment...as we write and read here...are being tortured. If we let this go without bringing those to justice who are flaunting the law, then nothing will stop this in the future. It is happening now, and it will happen in the future. Obama is a fine candidate and a fine man. But we are a nation of laws not of men & women.

This brought back memories of my uncle, who was a Vietnam POW. After 17 years of addiction and homelessness, he hung himself under a bridge. We hardly knew him. He went to war too young, and his life was permanently damaged by his experiences. There are devastating psychological problems for both victim and torturer, and calls to wage even more violence from those who seek revenge.

Torture and war inspires more torture and war. It fuels hatred against us, and makes our nation seem cold and indifferent.



Kenneth Roth- Executive Director of Human Rights Watch. http://tinyurl.com/6wc27

Nance, you words have moved me to tears. That means its time for bed. Thanks for caring and showing fortitude in your writings.:hug:

.

You wax eloquently. And are, for the most part, preaching to the choir.

Remember the people you are writing about (shrub and Co.), are about _power_. There be no limit to their use of power to keep their power. Torture is simply another tool in their box to stop and destroy those they see as enemies.

The people sent out to defend the use of torture do so because they are being paid. They will say whatever is on the teleprompter. The secret to success is sincerity; once one learns to fake sincerity one will be a success.

As for your ridicule that those who use torture to make-up for their failures as males - does not take into account the women (like C. Rice) who joyfully participate and defend the use of torture.

"Nevermore."

No pardons, no immunity, no amnesty
Off To The Haag with them.

.

professional wrestlers. All of this chest thumping and tough talk is overcompensation for many things such as: impotence, small man parts, closeted self loathing homosexuality etc........ Those to whom it appeals are in league with its promoters. These are not Teddy Roosevelt Republicans, but more accurately, Pee Wee Herman Republicans, adults in a state of arrested development. In denying their own identities they suspend their humanity. They are the same people who were defeated in WW II.
When torture becomes an option and the preferred method of the political leadership, a moral benchmark has been established and the line crossed into the realm of rogue nations that have found History's dust bin.

who can say "America was founded as a Christian nation" and will justify torture within the same conversation...

who can say that they are pro-war, pro-death-penalty and still claim to be "pro-life"...

who can say that it is possible to "export democracy" at the point of a gun...

who can say that hatred of homosexuals and foreigners and every non-Christian has Jesus' blessing and encouragement...

who honestly believe that they are made freer by throwing away the Bill of Rights (save for the Second Amendment, of course)...

who believe that they have nothing to fear from a government that can (and does) snatch innocent civilians off the street and hold them for political purposes in countries unknown for charges unknown for terms unknown, because "they're doing nothing wrong"...

Indeed, show me these people who can accomplish these mental contortions without their heads exploding and I'll show you either a group of schizophrenics in dire need of heavy therapeutics -- or the right wing.

Neither one should be out walkin' around unsupervised.

Hey HW, does 1984 strike a familiar note?

I've been thinkin' it since 1984.

Guess KA finally imploded under moderator incompetence and neglect. I finally came back over here (after forgetting my original handle and password, plus had a change of email server). It was just easiest to start over. Guess my distinctive style of rant never changes much, huh.

Great writing, as always, Nance...

You hit on the essence of what I like to call the "chickenshit generation"...a group that grew out of the baby boom with a distorted vision of the world that only got more warped as time went along. These were kids who grew up in the early days of the cold war of "duck and cover" and were indoctrinated with the evils of communism and in non-conformity. Their world was one of "order"...and anything that upset that "order" or "norm" was labeled a threat. Over the years the list of "threats" grew as their perspective grew more warped.

The civil rights movement and social upheaval of the 60s was a "threat", as was environmentalists of the 70's as was the non-nukes crowd of the 80's and so on. Add to that a myopia presented on their TV screens...a world in two dimensions where we were always superior and all world events were viewed as "how does this affect us". This view also helped to build an entitlement as since we were "superior", we had the "right" to subjugate the rest of the world...be it for resources or cheap labor or military/industrial glory.

9/11 was the culmination of all fears finding a place to happen. The chickenshits saw this as the ulimate threat and that you were either "with us or against us"...in a very narrow and ultimately self destructive view. This opened the door to turn this country into the mess it is now...and creating a long road back to sanity.

The fact this regime has attempted to legitimize fear over law, intrusion over civil liberties and then attempt to manipulate information shows how destructive the "chickenshit generation" has become. Their phobias combined with greed and ignorance have made it possible for this regime to push an authoritarian agenda that only enhances the chances of more attacks in the future.

Nance...I've long advocated pushing for a tribunal in the Hague and with more and more revelations of violations of the Geneva convention and other laws, the chances look good once this regime is replaced. I also see the need for a President Obama to select an Independent Prosecutor (or several) to go through the backlog of corruption and law breaking that's taken place...restoring some accountability and balance of powers. Lastly, there needs to be Defacto impeachment that will square things with the Constitution to show not only have we re-asserted our committment to the values of that document, but that we've held those who broke that committment accountable.

Cheers...

:toast:

whose parents parked them in front of Leave it to Beaver and Mayberry RFD, while their own time got slowly stolen from them to make ends meet. The surreal became the real. Enter Murdoch whose stock-in-trade was two-headed, cow-mutilating, post-abduction alien-baby stories and weekly Elvis sightings. With a winning formula like that, which made him bazillions of dollars, why change the it simply because he acquired a medium with pictures that moved and had sound? The pre-conditioned audience was already built in.

A disaster in the making, and the fruit that was rotting on the branches is now festering on the ground. Little wonder we have no dearth of shoot-em-up armchair generals who are all for war and torture -- so long as there's no danger of themselves doing the bleeding or drowning. It's not real if it's not happening to them. It's warped way of thinking, but it's how the Vidiot mind works.

The only time the chickens come home to roost is little doses of reality creep in, when the corporatists get just a lit...tle too greedy, like in the case of Texas utility rates as was posted yesterday. Oh, it was damn funny to slap a bumper sticker on a pickup truck to the tune of "Drive faster, Freeze a Yankee" or to snicker at Californians sitting in the dark, or to call for Gray Davis' head at 1200 miles' distance -- until they got their latest electric bills.

Wasn't so durned funny any more, was it.

Moral of the story: don't believe everything that comes across the toob. But we already knew that here. Preacher, choir, an' all that.

Sigh.

I go back to my premise in the aforementioned post about the Texas utility bills: communication is all we've got as Progressives. It behooves us to keep tearing at the propaganda, to lose the stereotypes amongst ourselves and, above all else (even when it seems like a lukewarm fart in a cold, cold blizzard) keep telling the truth.

Bless you, Nance, for the latter.

smoke this exploding cigar:



By Coleen Rowley and Ray McGovern
July 19, 2008

~snip~

We suggest four reasons why I-don’t-care-what-the-international-lawyers-say George Bush and dark-side Dick Cheney opted for torture:

1 -- Deceit: Granted, torture does not yield truthful information. It can, though, be an excellent way to obtain the untruthful information you may wish to acquire. All you really need to know is what you want the victims to “confess” to and torture them, or render them abroad to “friendly” intelligence services toward the same end.

One case that speaks volumes is that of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, who was captured and rendered to Egypt, where, under torture, he told his interrogators precisely what they wanted to hear.

According to the Defense Intelligence Agency, al-Libi had been identified as a likely fabricator months before the Bush administration began to use his statements to prove that Iraq trained al-Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons.

Without mentioning al-Libi by name, President Bush, Vice President Cheney, then-Secretary of State Colin Powell and other administration officials repeatedly cited information from his interrogation as credible evidence that Iraq was training al-Qaeda members in the use of explosives and illicit weapons.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/071808e.html

in ensuring the safety of its citizens. It is the result of our government being run by a bunch of sociopathic misfits".

That is the central truth of our time. More and more Americans are seeing that. Impeachment hearings would make it clear to so many more. Why can't our Congress see or acknowledge what so many other Americans already know???

That as a nation, as a people, we can hear about these acts, day after day, and begin to become desensitized is frightening and repugnant.

To hear people refer to themselves as religious conservatives (or gods forbid, compassionate conservatives) and then sign off on and/or enable and encourage this behavior is sickening.

I am neither particularly religious nor conservative, but I have enough of an internal moral compass to be revolted.

So again, thank you, for putting this into words.

Good post on human failings and to begin discussion on how divided people are by torture. How dangerous those people are that can accept state torture to mankind's self image and civilized interactions. We as a people are failing civilization by not punishing this behavior.

But who benefits from a world at each other's throats committing outrages to propagate to other peoples and future generations? Who is behind the propaganda machine that makes torture an acceptable weapon in human conflict?

I say that it is the corporate-state war machine behind the promotion of this divisive issue. Like big brother in 1984 that keeps the population busy fighting with all its resources to control the people and the economy. The businesses of war are succeeding in creating hatred and self-hatred by torture outrages and by the states acceptance of them. We are at a brink.

The horror and shame these people have brought us, leaves me speechless. I don't have the gift you have, to lay it all out for people to understand. I too, am glad you are on our side.

Because we need to hear more of this. This should be a viral e-mail, something to circulate the internet and annoy all those RWer's who always send me their crap!

K&R

"this from a “man” who hasn’t stopped whining since his mother withdrew her teat from his mewling mouth decades ago"

He reminds me of the bully in the schoolyard who is tough until he is busted and has to account for his actions.

Another great post. Thanks

was aware.

Just read this article on The Nation, hardly an anti Democratic publication:

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=258258

(the sound that threatens to overwhelm your senses is that of sustained tumultuous applause)

highground, whether or not they stood on such ground. Over time governments instituted certain policies that brought about humanitarian leaps; Britain's ban on slavery long before us is an example, as are the Rules under the Geneva Conventions.

When we entered our wars, we always claimed the high ground, however, in some cases we went into the valleys as well. The treatment of prisoners by both sides during the last half of our Civil War shows how low we can go. We are in no way incapable of of acts of cruelty, but we are certainly capable of repressing such things, and for many a year, we believed that those captured would be treated humanely, and we expected the same in return for our personnel captured as well. In fact, after WWII, we held trials for crimes not just against humanity, but for the treatment of interned military personnel as well.

The trials served a purpose far beyond what the bush administration is capable of understanding...that WE as a nation and civilized world, would never tolerate abuse such as this. As if out of nowhere, some men in incredibly expensive suits with immense power, just said, "the hell with that". They openly advocated the abuse of detainees, not just prisoners of war. Never before has this government done anything remotely like that. In the name of "possibly saving lives", they became nothing more than Inquisitors, allowing anything, but only admitting to waterboarding. Let's get something straight here, in the beginning of this mess, it was common practice not to send detainees to Guantanamo Bay to be held, but rather to countries that have ties to us in a friendly manner, (somewhat), where torture far worse than waterboarding, and "legal". Most of these were never heard from again. Egypt and Syria come to mind off the top of my head, but there are others. Those that wound up in Gitmo, are, oddly enough, the "lucky" ones.

These men are evil, and I do not say that lightly, they are truly evil. They have used fear as a tactic for almost a decade, and it has played them well. I have no comprehension how this bandied bunch of miscreants ever got elected, but twice...that truly is a WTF moment.

So it is my hope that they will be out of office, be arrested for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and although I am essentially a non-violent person, I think there just may be a viable reason to use some of what they have pursued if it "gets the truth out of them". After all, most people I know would never take a stand just for the hell of it, they usually believe in what they say and do. So, if it is good for the goose, it's good for the gander. However, I am willing to bet this band of brazen cowards would not get much further than the room they would be heading to to be waterboarded before they spilled all they knew. These are not men, they are miserable little creatures that "dress like men, therefore they must be men". They are one of the most disgusting of all human types...they try to act tough, but they would collapse at the first sign of danger.

To those who have seen combat, to those who have braved every dawn wondering if it might be their last, from Concord Bridge to the present day's conflict; from Antietam, Gettysburg, the Meuse-Argonne, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Ia Drang, and the current Triangle of Death...all know that none of these "men" would be worth much more than washing out trash cans at the Mess Halls, or burning shitholes w/diesel. There is nothing of substance to them, never was, never will be.

They deserve being known as the worst administration this nation has ever seen, the deserve to go down in history as convicted of crimes against humanity, war crimes and just plain old fraud...after all, they are nothing more than frauds.

He works with Clive Stafford Smith at Reprieve and here's his site:

www.andyworthington.co.uk

Andy has been very kind in answering my questions and I hope you all check out his site.

:hi:

and has done a ton of work. We're really not alone!

:hi:

It's like the death penalty: there may be some times when it is not inappropriate, but the state shouldn't support it even at those times because if it does it will inevitably be applied at others too.

If you have a "ticking bomb", someone will probably torture the suspect whether it's legal or not, but it shouldn't be legal for them to do so.

of where you stand on those two issues, and I agree with you 100%.

While I consider the death penalty barbaric and wrong, I'm resigned to accepting the fact that a lot of people take a different stance on the subject. I've been aware of this all my life and the numbers likely won't change much in my lifetime. It doesn't shock me that this is a debatable issue with large numbers in both camps.

This business of torture, however, has shocked me. We've always had, and might always have, a certain number of sociopaths in our society, and I naively thought that, except for those few, nearly everyone was repulsed by the thought of torture. The idea that the Lone Ranger, or Batman, or an American President condoning torture was unthinkable. Americans, almost by definition, just didn't torture people. We were the good guys. We rescued people FROM torture. We were the guardians of justice and humanity. I am just appalled that millions and millions of Americans, throughout society, from top to bottom, are apparently accepting the idea of our government employing full-blown psychopaths (what else could they be?) whose duty it is to torture prisoners. In our name, as an official policy of the United States. I never dreamed I would be witnessing this kind of debate in this country.

Strikes me just right.

:yourock:

DIGITAL CAMERAS. We know because he said so -- on camera.

:kick: