William Greider: "Usury...is rich people taking advantage of poor people....This is Usury."

from PBS:



BILL MOYERS: With me now is one of America's leading chroniclers of money, power, and politics, who says what's happening is the disgrace of Wall Street, its excesses paid for by people like those in Cleveland and millions like them around the country.

William Greider has spent forty years examining how powerful institutions affect ordinary people. Once a top editor of THE WASHINGTON POST, a columnist for ROLLING STONE, and now National Affairs Correspondent for THE NATION, he has produced a series of best-selling books: SECRETS OF THE TEMPLE: HOW THE FEDERAL RESERVE RUNS THE COUNTRY, ONE WORLD, READY OR NOT: THE MANIC LOGIC OF GLOBAL CAPITALISM, WHO WILL TELL THE PEOPLE: THE BETRAYAL OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, and this one, THE SOUL OF CAPITALISM. He's working on a new book with the title: COME HOME, AMERICA.

Good to see you in person.

WILLIAM GREIDER: Thanks Bill.

BILL MOYERS: What were you thinking as you saw that report from Cleveland?

WILLIAM GREIDER: Made me angry all over again, even though I know the story. And then I thought, "This is usury." This is a living example of what the Bible prohibited, which is the sin of usury. Most Americans have never heard of it probably.

BILL MOYERS: Usury?

WILLIAM GREIDER: Usury, to be clear about it, is rich people taking advantage of poor people by lending them money on terms that are sure to make them fail. All three of the great religions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, had a moral prohibition against usury because they recognized that society can't function like that. People of great wealth and their institutions like banks naturally have the power to overwhelm people of lesser means. And you can't allow that in a decent society. It won't survive.

BILL MOYERS: Where were the gatekeepers? Where were the watchdogs? Why did it take the Fed so long to put an end to-

WILLIAM GREIDER: Well-

BILL MOYERS: -predatory practices?

WILLIAM GREIDER: To make the story overly crude, Congress repealed the law against usury. It was done in 1980 by a Democratic Congress, Democratic President. And, of course, the Republicans all piled on and voted for it. And that was the first stroke, only the first of many, in which they stripped away the regulatory laws from the financial system and from banking.

And that allowed the free market modernized gimmicks of one kind or another, all these things we're now reading about, to flourish. And that's where we are. I mean, the gatekeepers said to the banking industry and to the financial industry, "We don't think federal control or regulation is good for you, so we're, therefore, liberating you to do your own thing." ......(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07182008/transcript2.html

VISIT http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07182008/transcript2.html AND YOU CAN ALSO LISTEN AT http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07182008/watch.html


HIS IS A MUST SEE SHOW :bounce: :toast: :bounce: :toast: :bounce: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think:

SIGH! I wish I believed in hell.

In other words, by the 1980's ... the Democratic Party had already been deeply infiltrated

by elite interests ---

...that rich DEMOCRATS are, as a rule, any more moral than rich REPUBLICANS?

Just another reason why I'm a Socialist.

and others whom we considered "wealthy" at the time --- FDR . . .

I think there are rich "moral" Republicans --- not necessarily in our Congress ---

and hopefully waking up!

HOWEVER . . . I also think there were poorer Republicans --- like Bob Dole --- who did a

lot of dirty things.


Do I trust Jay Rockefeller --- NO!


I agree with democratic socialism --- unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime!



Anyway, that was THEN . .

Now we have Congress loaded with millionaires and multi-millionaires ---

and intermarriages with lobbyists, etal ---

Raising their own salaries --!!!

None of that will ever work ---

You did notice that it was a Democratic Congress and Dem president ... ?
In other words, by the 1980's ... the Democratic Party had already been deeply infiltrated

by elite interests ---

... and, of course, this all started LONG before then . . .

I think we have to keep looking at the very noisy/overt coup on 11/23/63 on the government.

As I recall those days, you could feel the changes happening immediately, like an undertow.

People might wonder. People should wonder. Reality is that since Eisenhower left office, the "elitists" in both parties have worked with each other to establish what really is the one party that rules this country. The Republicrat Party. It represents the wealthy and now only represents the corporations. By the corporation, for the corporation.

When you read the comments of Eisenhower about the "military-industrial complex" you have to realize he was not talking about it in terms of a political party. For good reason. It was being established by both parties. By the elitists. Who were and are oligarchists.

The Republicrat Party has devoured the Republican Party. If Democrats are not careful, it will devour the Democratic Party as well and as things stand, the Democratic Party is the only hope for this country.

The real choice in November is between oligarchy and democracy.

credit card industry. High rates on small unsecured loans really did need some protection, but as usual, the legislation was far too broad.

After the laws were repealed, the highest risk credit cards went to 21%-23%. That meant more people qualified for cards.

However, legislation like this should always be specific about what constitutes usury and what does not. A 23% APR on a very small loan made to tide someone over in an emergency is not usury. It reflects the amount of risk the lender is assuming in extending a small loan without collateral to a client with shaky credit.

Make usury laws too tight and you prevent the people who need it most from obtaining loans. Make them too loose and you get predatory lending.

Jimmy should have used his veto power.

Charging more for it will only make the risk greater for someone that has little means to pay it back
More money is not the solution to everything.

between jobs and a child who has outgrown clothing and shoes.

I extend third world loans at 16%. That's the rate at which all the paperwork and followup are covered, as well as the risk inherent in lending money to people who have nothing to use as collateral but a desperate need for money to start or grow a small business.

Risk has to be recognized and charges levied accordingly.

Failing to do that ensures that only the wealthy will be able to get loans.

Just did it out of the goodness of your heart.
Or do you believe that growing your wealth will help more people so it is justified.
I have heard that all before. it is just a way to make yourself feel better about profiting off the misery of others.
But If I had a neighbor that was out of a job and needed food and clothing for his children, and I had extra I would give him the food and clothes and expect noting in return, because he is my neighbor and someone I respect said "Love your neighbor as you love yourself"

and when loans are repaid, I relend the money to another person.

It's done through a non profit microlender.

Check it out sometime. The world isn't all about YOU.

And none of this is about me. I am doing fine, and I have no wants except for justice to be done.

But I would bet that that micro lender has a CEO and that CEO makes a nice salary...you have to pay them a lot to keep them from getting it from the private sector. So some of the profits goes to pay salaries, buy insurance, buy computers and equipment all of which is not donated. So there is no great give away there, and part of that profit goes to growing the funds which are invested by the bank for profit.
But perhaps I am wrong and it is all done with volinteers...I don't know do you?

And that is something I wold support.
But I guess I have become so cynical I doubt and mistrust everything, because I see so many scams that go on it is hard to tell truth from fiction anymore.

with reasonable interest over charity? I have been in that situation and still am. That is one reason I love Habitat for Humanity - they recognize the impact of interest on the poor.

Certainly if I was in need and someone gave me what I needed I would do my best to make it up to them in some way if I could. And I expect most people would do that. (except for the greedy that only sees it as a gift from a fool because they would never give without knowing that they would profit from it in the end)
Charity is not a bad word. It means love, but it has been turned into a guilt producing pejorative term by the same ones that want to profit from the misery of others.

to get to work and back. And don't tell me about buses - many places do not have buses.

I remember a few years later, I was going to apply for a VA loan for 10 1/2 percent, and thought it was a good deal then.

plus fees, the ability to reduce limits below balance, charge interest on penalties, and global default.

The fact is that commercial credit card companies should not be in the business of "high risk" loans, because they stand to benefit from recharacterizing as many people as possible as high risk and charging them higher interest.

With FICO not open to inspection, the fox guardeth the henhouse.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07182008/watch2.html

nt

When there own bible warns them of the evil they support.
The real truth is that they don't have the faintest idea what the bible is about.

Funny how they take a couple of random verses which they attribute to being about homosexuality, and say that should remain the law of the land, but ignore the repeated references to usury in the scriptures. The repetition would imply that God is really pissed off about this sort of thing, wouldn't it? At least if you accept the idea that the Bible is either the literal word of God, or at least the "inspired" word which God dictated to His servants. And most fundie churches fall into one of those two camps.

those religious reich types are totally in serfdom to Satan and love usury as they love themselves and Jesus. Especially themselves.

Because He said "As you have done unto the least of these, you have done unto Me". Which essentially means that those who make their profits from usury will likely be paying a 666% interest rate in Hell for eternity. :evilgrin:

Although I prefer the KJV...I acutely enjoy the old english that seems more poetic.
But you do know I suppose that Jesus would have noting to do with the fundamentalist Christan of today.
Remember he was accused of hanging out with publicans and sinners and my guess would be that some of them were gay.
He even saved a woman from being stoned to death for being caught in the act of adulatory.
But the fundies know none of this because they never read the bible and avoid anything that Jesus said because it condemns them.

Since good Christians were forbidden from charging usury, they got the Jews to do it for them, since they weren't under any religious prohibition to do so. Luckily, for the Christians, the Jews were forbidden from farming in most places, so they needed to do something to make a living.

Unfortunetly, dealing with money got Jews into all kinds of trouble. Being the only ones able to charge interest got them into hot water when things went bad. Anything to do with the economy taking a shit snapped right back on them. You know, those Jew international bankers that Hitler was talking about, the Rothchild's et al. And the "Jew Deal" here in the US, led by all the Jews in Roosevelt's administration like: Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau and Benjamin V. Cohen who created the SEC along with Tommy "the Cork" Cochran. (I guess, that Iraish guy in there was just an oversight.)

This is sort like the Jews having their own wells. They weren't allowed to live among the Christians, so they had their own water supply. When the Black Death came along -- spread from the fleas that lived on the rats the unwashed Christians slept with -- guess who got blamed for poisoning the local water supply?

Man, talk about bad luck!

Also Jews were often the merchants because they had contacts in other cities and could transfer money with "usury notes" - which were basically notes that said "When this guy gets to Genoa give him 800 florins" -Shlomo.

Judaism also requires a lot of cleaning and ritualised bathing - so they didn't attract the rats, or get sick as much in general. Alot of that Kosher stuff will keep you from getting sick in a world without refrigerators and petroleum based antibiotic soaps.

Alot of the pogroms and inquisitions were simply fundraising drives by the lords and kings. Kill all the Jews and take all their money. Europeans did this over and over again for over a thousand years.

It's one of the reasons why when Europe talks to Israel, Israel generally tells it to STFU.

Seems like many "christians" today worship Mammon before any other god.

Greider is a great writer. I loved his book on the Fed, which ironically supported something closer to the recent monetary philosophy than the one espoused up into the 80s ending with Paul Volcker.

It is true that laws on excessive interest rates were repealed under Carter, and that these were called usury laws. Historically, though, usury has been seen to encompass all lending at interest.

goes deeper than this..

On a planet with soil,rain, plants,plants grow .Plants grew and bore fruits before people existed. Plants seeded and grew and fed many animals for millions of years for FREE.

Than as time went on ,and plants still grew the seeds propagated the plants, fed by soil rain and sun, FOR FREE.And Food was FREE to any who would eat it,birds bears or humans all ate for FREE.

The seeds got spread through the feces of those who ate the fruits,and the plants flourished and there was food everywhere for FREE..It was all free.

Until some asshole greedy piece of shit, made up a game,of master and servant,and very selfish game,called control-over...He hung a price tag on the plants,claimed he owned it all,and took possession of it by driving out others.So for people to eat they had to pay
"the man" with the guns, hoarding what was once free for everyone.

And so existence became Pay-as-you-go.
By that I mean if you don't pay someone else for what grows for free you don't get to live.This is extortion.

This is the real problem, extortion.

People thinking they can OWN water air the land,and deprive others..When the "owners" die the truth comes out, they don't even own their bodies or their last breath.So Inheritance was invented.

This ownership lie has moved into claiming ownership over what people imagine,imagining is FREE,but once a price tag is hung on it you must pay to see it or hear it.People sing,the sound is FREE,but some sounds you must PAY for? Why? This system of usury and the people who enable it is why you must pay and pay.

Still the Earth grows plants but they are not free anymore,and this applies only to humans.

The earth has animals here ,Some are not living free or free for humans to hunt and eat either, but they once were free for humans and animals that could catch them. Prey animals are still FREE for cougars, lions and tigers,they get their food for free but humans must PAY. Why is that?

No lion pays a human for the"privilege" of catching and eating food.Yet humans do pay humans to eat.Why?

Because humans are DOMESTICATED, ever faithful and obedient to the system of the extortionist, The system of usury that exists by making free things cost us.. This usury/extortion racket was invented by a few greedy very manipulating people,so some people can get more than they give,so they could live lives without needs unmet,so some could have power with none of the responsibility,so some can get something for nothing(profit)at everyone else's expense.

We can agree water has been around a VERY long time. Water was once drinkable and everywhere, in springs that bubbled up from deep in the Earth, in lakes rivers and it was all FREE..But that is no longer true, for human made for profit industry has polluted the waters so that in some cases fish can't even live there. So now water that is drink-able has been stolen from us.

Water existed and slaked many thirsts long before some asshole came along polluted it,bottled it, "filtered" it and hung a price tag on it,and sold it at a cost back to us,you know.

Water was once,FREE,to any who thirsted and saw a spring,they drank from it bird cat plant or human,didn't matter.
Water Buffalo do not pay some water company for the privilege of drinking and bathing in a river.Nor do birds. But we humans PAY and PAY and PAY with tokens that represent life time,toiling at a 'job' to pay a rich person,just to have the privilege of drinking WATER??...WTF??

Usury began I think long ago, it began right before"civilization" came to be.One bullying person believed he was superior and he had a right to deprive the others of access to food, water,shelter,companionship, warmth, all those things on the Maslow's hierarchy of needs.The bully was a sociopath,and a very clever one.

That bully knew to create the illusion of power and to have 'authority over others, he had to take away from the others something the EARTH provides for ALL,and deprive them of sustenance to CONTROL them,to use them.

He knew he had to get together a mean psychopathic posse of ambitious greedy thugs to be his fists and spying eyes to make him a "big man".He had to let other thugs into the gang, in on the deal, with bribes, promises of power and a cut of the resource pool or special access to something..If said upstart despot wanted to be able to hijack and control a spring that supplied water to many people and animals,and "possess it" for himself.

He needed a loyal posse happy in their servitude,and ready to kill for a higher status in the group playing this bullies game of power-over, to force or convince the ones who were NOT in the"elite" gang, to PAY the bullies, for access to water from a spring that bubbled up from the earth that once was there for FREE, open to all that thirsted..But because of the bully and his posse of thugs this watering hole has become territory that is occupied.

In the Savanna,Antelope, Gazelles, Zebra,Crocodiles,Birds,Hippos and Lions all drink and bathe from the same sources of water.There is a recognition in the animal kingdom that water is necessary for life.The Lions know if the Gazelle,Antelope,and Zebra don't get a chance to drink at the watering hole..The Lions won't get to eat,after all the prey perishes of thirst. No species occupies the water hole all to itself.

Humans caught up in games of power and control,domination and submission,have forgotten this democratic reciprocal relationship is what life on this planet requires for all to live. Usury is theft of life. Theft that is so accepted, seen as normal as "property rights" and the only way societies can function has blinded us to our past and our future ways.

A society can live without an authority figure or costly social hierarchy.A society can thrive in peace IF psychopaths, bullies and despots are contained, killed or NOT trusted or given power.

Usury/extortion,pay as you go existence is the ONLY way a TOP DOWN, master and slave hierarchical cultures can exist.Every dominator needs an OTHER to dominate.So some are trained and conditioned to accept being dominated and deprived,always asking permission and paying the master.A dominator that cannot dominate anyone is just an asshole.

A owner that is disbelieved when it comes to what he takes from the others ( that which he says he owns), is greedy despot,and if his pitch of lies is believed by the people,he will tyrannize to the point of being a toxin to humanities well being and destroy the natural state of democracy and the solidarity of kin and community that keeps false power in check..

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3248-democracy-beats-despotism-in-the-animal-world.html

Because of the systemic ABUSE bullies and their posse regularly do to humans through generation after generation,people have gotten used to their chains and roles.The mental bars in their minds rule out any alternatives to the system they are conditioned to think they wanted...We have been taken advantage of by the usurious bullies despots for a very long time.And it has taken a toll on our happiness,potential, wellbeing and health. We are now forced to work all the days of our lives away just to pay some corporation for what the Earth itself gives for FREE,enriching the thugs that "own" us.

Usury is evil wrong,and cruel.Yet by many people are so used to being abused and paying for things they will defend this usurious lie and belief system even if it kills them to do so. Property is usury is theft.
And no one has a right to own the things that existence and the earth gives us all for free.NO ONE.For when one has what others cannot get but need to live this is EXTORTION. Extortion on a grand scale,normalized.

Look at the animal world,they do not play this game,or have usury. Why? Because animals know what survival requires it requires kin and community and sharing. .Humans have forgotten this basic lesson and soon we will kill this planet with our usury game gone out of control..

Compare animals to humanity in regards of usury.WE are the ones fucked in the head,the weirdest monkeys..

Humans are the only species convinced by it's most destructive members, to pay life and toil to a despot,tyrant,bully and his posse for the 'privilege' to eat and drink what the earth gives to all that live, freely.

We as a species must stop playing make believe about'ownership' ,control, and that empty sound called 'authority' and letting corporations(paper bullies) and human bullies dominate us to cheat us out of our natural rights by imposing a pay- as- you - live extortion on every human being.This zero sum game has to STOP...

"New American Century"
by KMFDM.

Count your blessings
Walk the line
Don't move too fast
Or fall behind
There are rules you must obey
They get re-written by the day
Don't do this - don't say that
Your every move is logged and tracked
By the all oppressive eye
Spy satellites in friendly skies

The new american century
Has only just begun
No one exempt from the tragedy
Counterattack start pushing back

Fight the power
That chokes your speech
Fight the power
That makes you bleed
Fight the power
That propagates lies
To keep you weak
Keep you in line

Fight the power that reigns you in
Divides and conquers
Defines your sin
Fight the power
For one and all
Before the power swallows us whole

No one dares to say a word
Our panic drives all human herds
In the land where cash is king
Our silence bought and sold for free
The future's banging on our door
When real I.D. will be the law
Love thy neighbor and turn him in
It's call patriotism

The world is watching in disbelief
Chanting shame on you
How can you stand by so quietly
Letting them rape your liberties

You can't be bothered or concerned
You see no reason for alarm
Prejudice, religion hate
Usher in new mandate
Absolute and resolved
One nation under one god
Lack of interest has its price
As we're stripped of all our rights

Those who cannot learn from history
Are doomed to repeat it!

With a song at the end.
Are you a Native American?
Because they believed that no one could own the land and water..the great spirit gave it to them for free to keep them clothed and fed and nourished and he was the owner of it.
But they did have a sense of ownership in a way...the woman owned everything and the man owned his horse and weapons. He was mer ly a guest in his wifes ti pi.
And rightfully so because the woman had children to raise. The man added to her wealth by hunting but the meat and hide of the buffalo was hers to feed and care for there child.
But they never understood the whit mans ownership of the land to them it was stupid to think that you owned the land and water.
And of course those traditions are now gone, crushed by the power of the gun and the seduction of money.

>With a song at the end.
New American century by KMFDM has been a coping song for me lately.
It has helped me keep on fighting the emotions and stuff I see that threatens to drag me into depression..

>Are you a Native American?

Partly. I have Indian on both sides of my family. Cherokee ,Golden Hawk Sizemore is on one side, and Creek/Cherokee on the other side..I have been pegged as being native american before by whites and other Indians.I don't look all that stereotypically indian.
But I found a book illustrating traditional tribal dress. I looked up Cherokee ,I am transgender so I looked up male dress,and I found out I now,dress in the same basic style as the Cherokee did long ago just with updated fabrics and stuff.
It was really surprising the similarities,the gauntlets,tattoos, the headgear,the way I wear my hair,the long vest,it was freaky..


>Because they believed that no one could own the land and water..the >great spirit gave it to them for free to keep them clothed and fed >and nourished and he was the owner of it.

Well,I dunno about great spirit owning it or not, it's the truth nobody owns anything in this existence really. Just look at how reality operates ,belief has nothing to do with it. When you die, your 'stuff 'doesn't go with you,the land you occupied is vacant.Even the body you had rots into the ground.It belongs to no one..It's Obvious to me this is how reality operates...It isn't owned and cannot be owned by anyone.
Ownership now that is a big lie, so it requires belief to exist.As does authority and hierarchy also need people to believe in it for it to exist and appear real.I think property ownership, social hierarchy,and authority are all mass delusions,myself.

>But they did have a sense of ownership in a way...the woman owned >everything and the man owned his horse and weapons. He was merly a >guest in his wifes ti pi.

"A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground" A Cheyenne proverb,and it rings true even now.
And we are all Guests on a planet,beings being hosted in bodies we don't own or control as much as we like to think we do.

>But they never understood the whit mans ownership of the land to >them it was stupid to think that you owned the land and water.

It is stupid.

>And of course those traditions are now gone, crushed by the power >of the gun and the seduction of money.

I agree but I would add control/ power-over to that list...

Since humans are the ones making this mess of things, Humanity has to be responsible for what kinds of civilizations they create and the harm it causes. We GOT to find a way to reclaim this true understanding of the way things ARE again and to take it to heart and LIVE it and find a way to teach yourself how and help others learn too.

We have to give up this way we are living now,it's sick,suicidal, our survival as a species and life on Earth itself depends on us giving up ownership,control and domination too. I know alot of people think what I am saying is irrational, people think it's scary threatening or whatever,to even consider the idea of discarding the belief in ownership,control and money.I say it anyway.Because I have to.

My conscience demands I at least use my voice, my mind to fight this sickness in ways I can,since my body is kinda fucked up now.
To sit here and repeat the trivial shallow stuff I see posted alot here, and not to try to give a voice to the truth,the obvious.To fail to clearly denounce the concepts and lies that are so destructive and maintain this destructive civilization,would to me,feel like a betrayal of the few good things that do exist here. I can't betray that.

And try not to let this depress you. Just remember they can kill your body but not your spirit.
I happen to be a follower of the teachings of Jesus...not a christian.
And Jesus was also a profit that told of these times when knowledge would expand greatly and about most of the troubles we see today. and of that time he said "Do not be troubled by all of this because it must happen"
And that is the way I feel, just like the alcoholic we must hit bottom before we are ready to change.

I think you should get in touch with your native American traditions and study them as much as you can. I think it will lift your spirit.
And why not become one instead of just saying that you have the blood.
To me it sounds like that you are really a Native American in spirit.
Just embrace who you are and don't let any one define you.

I dunno the tribal thing seems confusing to me..
I don't know where to start with it,who to talk to..etc. .I have my ancestry stuff together..

But to me it always felt wrong to have to PROVE
a pedigree,to an 'authority',satisfy a 'gatekeeper'
to go through all the bureaucratic loops
required to be able to claim this blood status
to be considered a legit "tribe member".

(You know the quanta crap was invented by white colonialists
to control the Indians..)

I say this because in the end blood quanta's means nothing,to me. When things finally collapse and we all know it IS happening,blood percentages and race affiliations won't mean shit to anyone who wants to survive anymore .We will either learn social skills,help each other out for FREE,accept each other's quirks and work together anyway. And we will have to put clear and necessary boundaries and consequences concerning the expected conduct of people in relationships with us.We must re-learn how to share what we got or share what we know how to do, or die.

To me the Native identity thing is more about who you are inside and about how you relate to others outside and your respect for life and the Earth, that's what matters.

I admit I do hate this world,especially domesticated life, the economic plutocratic stench,the corporate lie,authority and master slave bullshit. I still have major beefs with the way things are in the fabric of this reality itself.Hating the conditions here does not give me the right to abuse and disrespect the living beings here and be mean to the word when it is not harming me or my relations.I have no desire to mistreat the Earth for being what IT is. I don't have to like the nasty side of reality or pretend it isn't there to be decent to the beings here, myself.I can be kind as I condemn.

If I join the tribe and they understand what I mean and are more experienced about living in the way I know things must be for our own survival's sake it would be a good thing for me to listen and learn all I can.

On the other hand I've met Indians in name only that act out the dominator crap that hurts me so much to see... others in the tribes would say I was wrong for feeling this way about this, others agree with me and say it is stupid too.

In a way I must admit I am chicken-shit,on this because really I don't want to find out that Indian culture has been bleached white as dry bones and eviscerated totally and turned into an economic game.I dunno if I could stand knowing it was conquered that way ,emotionally.My heart would not just be on the ground knowing that,it may wind up 6 feet under it.

Don't try to prove a pedigree or ask to join a tribe.
Go to the Native Americans as a teacher and student, to learn what they know and to teach what you have learned.
You may know that the Native Americans had a strong belief in the spiritual world and their religious beliefs shaped there traditions and society.
And while much of it has been lost there is still a lot that survived, but it may not be from the same tribe as your ancestors it was all pretty similar.
If you have not read it I would suggest Black Elk Speaks who was a shaman for the Lakota Sou and his story was recorded by a white man who was concerned about the culture being lost.
And there is another one called The Sacred Pipe which is even more interesting.
And another one called The Book Of Hopi which is important because the Hopi are the only tribe that still keeps the old traditions. the Navajo who are close to them also keep the old traditions alive and by the way rejected gambling as a money maker for the tribe.


But I urge you not to fret about the conditions of the world today, but not forget them ether and keep speaking from the heart to those things.

And the Native Americans had a prophesy about these time that is not far from the Bible
With them the sigh of the coming 1000 years of peace was the birth of the white Buffalo calf which has already happened in North Dakota
And the earth will change and we will have those things that you want in your soul...I promise you that. We will all be brothers and sisters again and all of this negative crap will only be a memory.
And I want you to live to see it.

>Go to the Native Americans as a teacher and student, to learn what >they know and to teach what you have learned.

I dunno they have faced alot of exploitation.I don't want to be seen that way.


>You may know that the Native Americans had a strong belief in the >spiritual world and their religious beliefs shaped there traditions >and society.

Yes I do.

>If you have not read it I would suggest Black Elk Speaks who was a >shaman for the Lakota Sou and his story was recorded by a white man >who was concerned about the culture being lost.

I liked Black Elk's story..

>And there is another one called The Sacred Pipe which is even more >interesting.

Haven't read that one,I'll look for it.


>And another one called The Book Of Hopi which is important because >the Hopi are the only tribe that still keeps the old traditions.

I have the Hopi Survival kit.Weird tho. I had a red sky dream in the summer of 1999,and it was weird.This was before I had read any Indian prophecies.If you want to know more PM me.

>the Navajo who are close to them also keep the old traditions alive >and by the way rejected gambling as a money maker for the tribe.

Cool! Good for the Navajo!! I really respect that.I also understand the sad reasons for accepting casinos too,but it still doesn't sit right with me I don't care if it's Indians, whites or any other people doing it.. Gambling takes advantage of those who are desperate ,addicted, or those who can afford to waste money to waste more money..


>But I urge you not to fret about the conditions of the world today,

I don't exactly"fret",I feel.Even if I ignore the news,stay off line,and stay outside,I can still feel it.I can feel,and sense things,I get bombarded with stuff images,sound scenes,spirits.(PM me because I ain't discussing this stuff here) And I know some of it is a message. I don't have anyone to talk to about it. I don't trust my shrink to know how to deal with these things either. She already has heard some things,and later saw them come to pass.

>but not forget them ether and keep speaking from the heart to >those things.

I will not stop.

>With them the sigh of the coming 1000 years of peace was the birth >of the white Buffalo calf which has already happened in North >Dakota..

I know about it!!Do you know there are more than one white buffalo?
http://aristotle.net/~swarmack/bison.html
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06344/745017-85.stm
http://www.ewebtribe.com/NACulture/articles/9thwhitebuffalo.htm
http://www.petandwildlife.com/bison/buffalo/another-white-buffalo-born-on-the-heider-farm.html
Seems the white buffalo are coming in amazing numbers..Enough to form a whole herd soon.

>And the earth will change and we will have those things that you >want in your soul...I promise you that.

This is where I run into a schism .. I don't trust that this thing(so called creator of this world) that made this place is good.I don't think it is capable of making anything except a flawed imitation of what spirit is like because that which made this world was evil.
I don't trust any god that would make this world or use evil to 'teach lessons'.I don't believe we need evil to know good. This flies contrary to most religions.

I think look to the un-manifest,that is where real divinity is, it ain't here or in a god from here or a god that creates a place like here.Sophia wisdom desired for,points the way..
You know that verse in your book about how good trees do not make bad fruit,and bad trees don't make good fruit, right? This world is a huge bad fruit. And the devil(I call it an archon force or evil mind) can appear beautiful and can do fake miracles and such..Think about it.Something about this reality,something about it's mechanisms is keeping people from living in peace keeping them imprisoned..history keeps repeating..People never learning from it really,they talk about peace, justice,empathy but do not do it..

>We will all be brothers and sisters again and all of this negative >crap will only be a memory.

I don't think in that kind of exalted state genders exist anymore.
I would like to think what you said is how it turns out,a happy ending after all this shit... but it won't happen until the evil force is removed,contained or eliminated. Evil is like a parasite and cannot sustain itself without a host or servant .When will we go home? To our real home,To our source? Upon death? Or after death? I don't know. And because I don't know(knowing is different from faith)I always am prepared to admit that this is all just wishful thinking and fantasy too.Because ultimately I know no matter how much I need it,want it desire it,and how much pain I go through, it does not mean it will become real.I have to admit both sides because knowing the possibles make the end results of life should they be nasty not so unexpected.


>And I want you to live to see it.

I don't need a physical body to to see it.
I have left this body many times,gone all sorts of places. I leave this body when I dream,journey or dissociate.Even my therapist tells me I don't entirely live Here in this world.She knows I am multi dimensional.Without this body entrapping me, I am like conscious aware lightening,holographic, my energy is cat like.

if that makes sense to you.

I sent you a PM
And thanks for those links. My knowledge of the subject is old because I have not studied it in years.
It is nice to get caught up on it.
And I understand what you mean by not wanting to be seen as an exploiter. But I think that some of them would understand your true intentions.
I would just like to say that evil will be destroyed through enlightenment, and in fact that is necessary to make the evil visible to everyone. And it first starts with and individual enlightenment and then it spreads to others. That is part of our duties as spiritual beings is to spread the light. there is a saying that goes;
To bring light into the world, be a candle or the mirror that reflects it.

Individuals owned mussel beds or berry patches, etc. And slaves too.

I believe that is true about other native nations as well. We tend to romanticize native culture, but a little research points to more complexity.

Be assured that it will, one way or the other.

Like all games that exploit and deplete the resources that support them.

I drink your milkshake.

D. Plainview

:hi:

quite a few of them, indeed ---

he's a terrific writer at getting these common sense ideas across to the public ---

if anyone reads books!

He often used to write for Rolling Stone . . . I don't know if he has recently.

Look for him!

He seems to be awol.

:kick:

Thanks so much for posting this.... Moyers hits it again.

To make the story overly crude, Congress repealed the law against usury. It was done in 1980 by a Democratic Congress, Democratic President.

!!!!!!!!

...who came to power after purging the progressives from positions of leadership, following McGovern's loss in 1972, in the name of "party unity" and "moving to the center" -- supposedly to appeal to the all-important moderates who, we were told, hated everything that could be thought of as "liberal."

In short, these were to progenitors of the DLC. And, like the DLC, their attempt to flee their Democratic heritage met with ignominious failure: the elections that year not only saw Reagan win the White House in a landslide, but the G.O.P. regain control of the Senate for the first time in decades.

So, Democrats tried to appeal to voters by acting like Republicans...and got voted out in favor of actual Republicans. Same as it ever was.

The only constant is that it's the Republican agenda that winds up getting enacted into law every time. :-(

I wrote in Shirley Chisholm in '72, and the older I get, the prouder I am of that vote.

You have an essay in this.... I hope you will consider writing up that bit of Democratic party history!

I bet it also parallels the selling out of poor folk...

:cry:

Thank you.... really.... :yourock:

With an arrogant Communist China demanding,
Exxon/Mobil stay out of the South China Seas,

Why not start another 'blood fest'
slaughter in Southeast Asia....

Similar to the successful
U.S. military directed mass murder of
One Million, Two Hundred and Fifty Thousand
Philippine Peasant Insurgents
back in 1899.
(well documented by Mark Twain.)

L-e-n-d-i-n-g
First comes fraud, then come failures
Then they take our tax money, both mine and yours.

Of course the excuse is that the economy is hanging by a thread, and a bailout is the only choice, but these banks are the ones who perched the economy on a perilous ledge to begin with.

Someone's gonna have to either push it off and prove the "free market" really flies, or pull it back in the window and send it to a restrictive rehab.

It seems the tactic so far has been widening the ledge.

And the picture is a riot

of the usury in the USA. In this I, a Christian, fault the preachers of all these religions - yes there is a law in the Bible against this but American preachers ignore it in favor of coddling the rich in their congregations.

or don't get the credit card

my credit pretty isn't that great due to some issues in the past

I received a credit card offer today and I was interested until I read the fine print

I know that I couldn't afford the terms

Yes, I think that the credit card industry goes overboard to make their products attractive, just like any industry does

but I think that too many people get into debt through no one's fault but their own

n/t

I work in collection law-something I've been called several nasty names by other posters on here-and I've talked to people who have gotten in over their heads

the majority of people I deal with are very upfront and honest about what caused their problems-they spent way too much and couldn't pay for the charges and are willing to work with whomever to pay their bills; usually, the debtors can get a good deal from the companies because it doesn't do anyone any good to be a hard-ass over these things; like they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush; settling an account for 50% to 75% is better than suing someone and hoping that you can get an enforceable judgment against the debtor

then you have people who are only out to screw the credit card companies-making the average card holder pay to cover their debts; the companies pass on the costs to the other customers

I honestly can't understand why an individual would have more than one or two credit cards; I knew someone who had upwards of six and defaulted on all of them

Oh wait, no I don't.

Abolishing usury laws doesn't sound like a nefarious Carter scheme, but it sure as hell sounds like voodoo Reaganomics.

He didn't take office until January of 1981.

Saint Ronnie the Teflon™ Coated, while ELECTED in 1980, wasn't sworn in until January, 1981

:kick: & Recommended

The outrageous interest rates, fine print, excessive marketing, predatory loans, adjustable rate mortgages, mortgage backed securities all are examples of how the wealthy and powerful have manipulated and eliminated regulations to rob the American middle class.

and the outrageous overdraft fees these banks are charging, that alone must be a big percentage of profits as well.

:kick:

war is POOR PEOPLE fighting for the power battle between RICH PEOPLE

There are plenty of wealthy people who've come across their money ethically.

And, on the opposite side of the spectrum, we have crooks like Phil and Wendy Gramm, the execs of Wal-Mart and Monsanto and Halliburton, Alan Greenspan, the Carlyle Group people, predatory lending financiers, off-shorers, etc. Those people should be picked by their feet, and shaken upside down until every last coin is loosed from their pockets.

Mr Greider: ...the gatekeepers said to the banking industry and to the financial industry, "We don't think federal control or regulation is good for you, so we're, therefore, liberating you to do your own thing."

Not unlike the way left gatekeeper media has said to those trying to expose other equally if not more important, but apparently off limits, truths of our present times, "We know who runs/bankrolls the U.S. news and entertainment industry (which includes left gatekeeper media) and if you think we're gonna risk pissing these people off by actually doing our jobs and pursuing the truth of the events of 9-11, or of our completely hijacked electoral system, or the Sibel Edmonds story, then you just don't understand how left gatekeeper media works."

I don't recall it delving much into the history of banking laws, but it shows the pervasiveness and destructiveness of usury-slavery in the present day.
Once the creditors get their hooks in you chances are you will never live free again.

The idea of what debt is has degenerated in recent decades from the traditional concept of a loan meant to be repaid with interest over a defined period, into an asset that goes on producing profits in perpetuity for the lender, because according to the labyrinthine rules and fees structuring the loan, it will never be fully repaid, and is not meant to be repaid.

Doesn't that sum up every GOP economic policy, ever?

It was why Catholics were not allowed to charge interest, and therefore could not be bankers.

A few more random things concerning early Christianity and money, ("The love of money is the root of all evil," famously; 1 Timothy 6:10), usury, and "Communism."

Usury, a sin, was originally considered to be taking any interest at all for a loan, after the Jewish prohibition on the same. Jewish law relaxed, and allowed small rates of interest on loans to Gentiles; and gradually over the centuries as the original Spirit was lost, it came to mean excessive and oppressive rates of interest only, that usually guarantee that a loan to a poor person cannot be paid back, even if the original, basic lent-amount could have been ("Dictionary of Christian Lore and Legend," JCJ Metford; for example). After the usury law was killed, 1980, and subsequent weakenings of everything that stopped corporate criminals before, now all credit cards are set at usurious rates, sub-prime loans, pay-day lenders, all other loan sharks. To compound the sin, as many know, many people who were steered to sub-prime loans with murderous re-setting interest rates, actually qualified for, and would have been able to pay off, better-credit loan rates. There was a quote from Martin Luther somewhere, that I remember vaguely from a documentary series Peter Ustinov did during the early '90s or so, of Martin Luther bitterly angry at the sin, the outrage, of rich people who actually used their wealth, resources and power to further oppress and hurt the poor, the unfairness of it; it was unbearable to Luther.

"You load sixteen tons, and What do you get?
"Another day older and deeper in debt;
"Saint Peter don'cha call me 'cause I can't go--
"I owe my soul to the company store."

Early Christianity had a very complete, and harsh, attitude toward money, greed, and inequality, and there were countless examples of it. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God," (Matthew 19:24); Jesus telling the young rich male who wants to join, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me," (Matthew 19:21), but the rich boy could not, and left. The story of Lazarus, starving, thirsting, begging for help from the rich miser in the mansion, and being refused (Luke 16:19-26). When Lazarus dies, God takes Lazarus up into Heaven and comfort for the first time, and the miser is thrown into Hell; God forbids Lazarus from even helping the cruel miser who gave nothing to Lazarus. Of course, there was the famous story of Jesus throwing the moneychangers out of the temple, and tearing it down. "My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves," (Matthew 21:12-14). Then, significantly, Jesus heals a group of "the blind and the lame," and does not charge them! A very interesting quote is also from Matthew 23:14, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation." This was also from the earlier Jewish instruction to care for the widow and orphan, and railing anger against exploitation of them who have little and cannot fight back. This also reminds you of the Jewish Jubilee Year, (every 25 years I think; not sure), when all debts of the poor are forgiven.

Early Christians, before the imposition of a "Pope" and all other later things, lived a communal life, with each Church community its own culture, not organized globally yet, and were known for their renunciation of private/personal property. All things were owned and shared in common. They renounced all, and lived a life of poverty, because they were no longer of the concerns of this world, because they held a moral value of equality (and non-distinction as individuals), before God, and because of the growing sense of sin that the rich exploitation of the poor was, ("The Early Christians: In Their Own Words," by Eberhard Arnold, etc.). Even as early as the Middle Ages, people such as St. Francis and St. Clare criticized the official Church, and returned to a complete life of poverty and non-ownership.

These principles of non-exploitation, of fairness, of making a profit only on work done, and not just endlessly on the pile of money itself, and mercy toward the poor, were actually once codified as law. ...And they stayed that way until the moneychangers took over the temple of populist, democratic Government, as the threat they always are.

beliefs!

Do you have any more interesting tidbits about the early Christians?

People need to be reminded. :hi:

Hi, bobbolink. First of all, one more reference to how they lived as "Communist" church communities, owning nothing as individuals, but sharing all as a common good. From Basil of Caesaria, "Longer Rules": "A fraternal community then is a stadium where athletes are in training, a good path for progress, a continual stimulus, a constant concern for God's commandments. Its purpose is the glory of God according to our Lord's commandments. But it also follows the example of the saints, of whom the Acts of the Apostles tell us that 'all who believed were together and had all things in common,' and again, 'The company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common.' " (Forgive the use of "he," etc., original quote.)

As a matter of fact, the then-persecuted Christians were so well-known for their non-ownership, their renunciation of excess things, and their generosity, to all equally, that even Emperor Julian who persecuted tem, admitted that they "feed our poor in addition to our own," and that there was no poverty within the area of a Christian community (quoted, p. 14 etc., "The Early Christians: In Their Own Words," by Eberhard Arnold). Imagine anyone thinking that now! This is why I believe that all these "outward show" pseudo-"Christians," like Oprah Winfrey, George Bush, blah blah blah, who are rich beyond measure and clinging to every dime, find poverty and desperation all around them and do not help, still live in mansions and on yachts--are not Christians at all! They did not "sell everything they have and give it to the poor"!

By the way, ("The Gnostic Gospels," by Elaine Pagels, etc.), women were equal in the Church, were bishops--the highest order then, as there were no "Popes" corrupting the system yet, until the year 200 or so, when they were violently thrown out of the hierarchy, and oppression begun. Scholars have now agreed, (Garry Wills, and a book I have but can't find, on the traced origins of Bible verses), that the horrific lines from 1 Corinthian 14:34, etc., (the horrible crap about women keeping silent in church, asking their husbands, if they want to know something, etc.), were not written by Paul at all, were not on the earliest copies, were added later, and are fake.

Again, the attitude and practice of the very earliest Church--Syrian, Coptic, the very earliest communities beyond Jesus's own area itself--was of local organization but total-church doctrine, equality, and calm humility. One of my favorite stories on this topic, is from a book called "The Roots of Christian Mysticism" by Oliver Clement, and it quotes from a very famous, early compilation of Christian stories, "Sayings of the Desert Fathers": "A brother who had sinned was expelled from the church by the priest. Whereupon Abba Bessarion rose and went with him, saying 'I too am a sinner.' " This Bessarion was actually a very saintly person, but sided with the "judged" person, as also flawed and falling short, and left as a message. The expulsion was ended. The point is not to excuse evil, but to keep modesty and honesty about what we ourselves all are.

Thanks

Now it's just good business.