I am soo FRIKING PISSED just found out my 16 year old daughter is signed up for the ASVAB she did

it on her own


Hubby's brother joined the army last year and is getting ready to deploy to Iraq and spent the last month here reqruiting and I guess she has this glorified idea of what it is like


I am sooooooo fucking pissed and don't know what to

EDIT TO ADD..

She is gifted, is in the top 1/4 of her class. She sings like a dream...She will get Scholarships and does NOT need this to pay for college.

She is graduating HS one year early

she was supposed to go to college

I will NOT let her join the army



and she knows how we feel about this fucking war

That's the last thing they need is another "soldier" to do their bidding.

Please discourge her. The recruits will promise her so many things and she'll get a sack full of grief. The military life will affect her the rest of her life and not in a good way. Believe me, I know.

Or I might have taken it just to get out of boring classes for a day?

Scored very high on the test. Got the "early enlistment" pitch when I was 17. Told them "thanks but no thanks". It was the Reagan era, and I didn't trust that old bastard.

The recruiters continued to call my parents house until I was about 30 though (which would have included Iraq War I years) so if you're a parent with a teenager who takes this test, hope you got caller ID. You'll probably need it!

I took the test and they called me until I was 30-some, too! Crazy. I remember telling the last guy, "Look. I'm just so much smarter now than when I took the test. Which is bad for you, but really good for me, so...no thanks."

If you're daughter did it on her own, then that's her choice. At some point she has to learn to be an adult and choose her own path, regardless if you like it or not. If she's set on joining the military, you could perhaps steer her into the Air Force or Navy. If she's set on doing something combat related, there's little you can do...when she turns 18, she can sign on the dotted line without your permission. My advice....let her decide. If you bully her into making a decision she'll either go in the other direction, or she'll resent you later.

If you back off and she makes the decision to join or not, then it's her decision and not your interfering with her life. Best thing for her to do would be to talk to someone who already served, and not just listen to a recruiter. Recruiters exist to recruit, so they will talk up the benefits and glaze over the drawbacks. If she talks to someone who served (recently), and makes up her own mind, then she did it as an informed person.

Not everything about military service is terrible. I've been in for 16 years, and while there has been plenty of hardships, there's been some amazing opportunities as well. I've been to many countries and worked in some amazing scenarios (most of them not combat). Then again, I've had times where I've asked myself "so why am I doing this?". Overall, in my opinion, I wouldn't trade it for anything. But not everyone has that same opinion, and your daughter needs to form her own.

Just my thoughts.

he told me to NEVER join anything where they wouldn't
let me pick up and walk away...EVER.

I have been a slavish follower of NO ONE
or NOTHING.

I think he gave me good advice.

She can't enlist until she's eighteen. If you know any reality based vets, have them give her the score.

It's merely a battery of vocational aptitude tests.

:)

She knows how I feel

We have NO CHOICE but to LET GO... Easier said than done.

I'd say she's pissed about her daughter being sucked into Bush's illegal, benighted war and good possibility she could be.

If I had a child, I'd be ballistic about turning my kid over to that horror show and I'm a 20 year career military retiree.

Far too many young lives had been pounded down that rathole.

on top of the fact that for the last 4 years we have heard nothing but Pittsburg State College and we have even started the process for admission

Go to college, get the paper and go in as an officer. The food and living quarters are better and she won't spend four years as a galley slave.

I've been enlisted...and I'm an officer now. If she's truly talented, and truly wanting to be in the military (it could be a phase...she's 16 after all), she'd have more impact as an O than an E.

Just the right balance of authority and responsibility, raise the kids right and usually go home in the evening, kick off boots and relax. However, it is a long, hard, sometimes bitter slough.

As Harlan Ellison said about climbing a mountain of crap to get to the rose at the summit, by the time you get there, you may have lost your sense of smell.

Have them pay for it at least. Although, much wider career ranges are open to OCS grads (at least in the Navy). But, being debt-free is great!

a monetary or service committment hook - pay or play.

it's a guaranteed job after college. And it's only 4-5 years. I would say that I am definitely better off without any student loans and with job experience. I'm getting out at five years, but I'll have those crucial years of job experience and a Master's. Plus, where else can a fresh college grad make $60k and get full benefits and 30 days paid vacation? It's not always great, but I'm doing a lot better for myself than many of my friends.

This might sound bad, but when I joined, I didn't do it for the honor, I did it because it was practical. Maybe that's not super patriotic, but it's true for many people.

especially if s/he is thinking career, the academies are the way to go. Free college, commission in the regulars (good for 30, don't have to sweat RIFs or drawdowns), and front of the line for assignments and promotions.

All I'm saying is Uncle giveth, Uncle can take away. One has to balance the good and bad.

And I share your sentiments about practical.

murdered there. It is NOT a safe place for female officers or enlisted personnel!

and he does not plan on joining the military.

:cry:

At 16, the parents still have plenty of choice. And responsibility.

to help in the decision before they sign up to go into our current military.

I know many folks can't afford to do this...and maybe could just get videos linked to some sites of Iraq and those from Afganistan who are maimed and mentally distraught. Maybe links to "Vets against War" or "Vets for Peace" would give some additional info for discouragement.

But...hey...our kids are kids...you do what you can but after 18 they are kind of on their own in their life and if you gave them the "tools" and "love" then one has to let them "fly." Sad as it is to see them make mistakes you would have wanted them to avoid.

Good luck to you...and I know you will do what you can...but you can only do what you can do... you can't make their choices for them..but you will feel better when you give them the facts and figures and pictures you know about what they will face. :shrug:

Sad times... Many of our kids will see this whole "War" as an Adventure...because they are young and "full of it" like we were...

The recruiter came to the school, we took the test - and the top 5% received certificates of achievement at graduation. Mine also qualified me to be entered to win (which I did) the Air Force, Math Science Award. Those achievements boosted my standing, and helped me get scholarships to college.

She is seriously thinking about joining


I will NEVER sign anything

she will have to wait until she is 18 if this is what she wants to do


I will NEVER approve of this

Tell the uncle to stop influencing your daughter or you'll call his mom on him.

And all of them agree that if you can go to college first and get in as an officer, one should. It makes no sense otherwise. They only did otherwise because they couldn't go to college first, and even then many have large regrets.

right out of hs, they paid for four years of college and now he's an officer. He loves it and so does she and they live in Jacksonville. Nothing wrong with letting them pay for education.

If the military pays for your college, they get MUCH say in when and how you can complete it. My students have to take night classes, one or two at a time. Circumstances vary, of course, but if you don't need the military to pay for it, putting off joining until one is a little older and experienced is, according to many of my military students, a good idea.

saying anything bad about his education. Look we may not agree with the war but the military can be a fine career.

Federal government stepping in on local education is something that kind of freaks me out.

it was strictly voluntary.

but schools have a way of not letting kids know it's voluntary sometimes, which is why it's incredibly important for students to know their rights and organize when needed. Some administrations (republican leaning ones) seem to think they are allowed to require it, but students can refuse. And if there are threatened for refusing, they should let the school know straight off they'll be taking the case to the ACLU. One thing schools really dislike is being sued.

however, like another poster sugggests, there is still time, and remember how many changes you went through when you were that age? The whole world can change in a month's time, so maybe chillin' out will help both of you. She is going to know you disapprove, and might get further into it, the more you bark. It might get real touchy! Good luck, and I'm betting that she will change her mind!

and if no one joins, then it falls apart. SOMEONE needs to do it...and not every job in the military requires you to hold a rifle and charge a hill. If she's gifted, then that's great...but let HER choose what to do. Not everyone joins just to get college money. And this whole idea that if you're smart and talented you should avoid the military is a bunch of garbage...because then basically you're saying you want a military full of toothless idiots...that'd be more dangerous than helpful. If anything, our military NEEDS some bright, talented individuals to lead and shape it into a professional, honorable force.

She will not be a prop to build up what bush tore down


not if I have anything to say about it

But...this is OUR country, right? So let's just all walk away from all those crumbling institutions and say screw it....

Let some one else's child do it, right? Not mine, for sure!

I am a parent of two boys. My youngest wants to be in the military like I am. I don't want anything to happen to him, but at the same time I wouldn't tell him NOT to participate in serving this country, be it in the military or some other service. By the time your daughter signs up, Bush won't even be in office anymore. And right now, we need good young people to patch up our force. I won't suggest she join or not...that's a personal decision. But I wouldn't chide her either, and characterize it as a "waste" or worse. I don't feel my time has been wasted. I've contributed to many good things in my career.

like "You don't make your numbers by recruiting my KID."

Was she pressured to?

Instead of looking at the Iraqis as enemy, we're working with them to get their country up and running....so we can LEAVE. These guys are great, and while they want us gone as soon as practical, they want our help and look to us to fix what's broken. The situation in Iraq is far more complex than any Time magazine article can effectively explain. You'd think these guys would hate us, but they don't.

& pls keep posting.:patriot:

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That's Bushco's line.

They aren't keeping us safe from anything. They are risking their lives for Bushco's imperial ambitions. But we are not in any danger from anything.

And they couldn't serve us if we didn't pay the taxes to finance them (and Blackwater). I am tired of the concept that only the military "serve" this country. We all do. We pay half of what we make in taxes and pay them to "defend" us. Though there are no threats that we need defending from, other than those invented by *.

...I'm not here to keep you safe. I'm here to get the Iraqi's on their feet after we kicked them in the face. Ironic isn't it? But that's not the point right now...these people need help, and I feel that if you knocked someone down, least you can do is help them back up.

Mom and I went several rounds when I decided to enlist. I just went more stubborn.

maybe she is just curious as to how she'll test?

Like Kittycat said, everyone was required to take that test.

What does she say about it?

she is not taking it through school, I would not be so upset if that were the case


she really thinks there is this glorified thing about the military thanks to her uncle


She and her her dad my hubby have already had serious talks about it. He has told me not to buck against it because it will push her more towards the military for sure


All I have to say is that I will NEVER sign anything and he better not either so if this is what she wants when she is 18 I can't stop her

Joe Is One Of Us suggested a tour to some Veterans facilities, maybe?

Is her uncle in the army?

Your husband is right, just don't buck against it -- she can't do anything for a couple of years anyway, so hopefully this will lose it's appear to her.

he is like her best friend, they are pretty close in age


she even went to Fort Gordon last year to stay a weekend with him


He knew how I felt,

They are very active in counter-recruiting. Maybe someone can talk to her and give her the REAL scoop. I'm sorry you are going through this, it must be heart-breaking.

of "supporting the troops" and stuff, yet not wanting anyone to join the military. We don't live in Barneyland just yet...there are still real threats out there. Heck, even Canada has a military. If no one joins, then you have no military. And spare me the utopian ideas of not having one at all.

When they become adults, they are free to make their own choices. It would be awkward if I had a good career in the military and told my kids "no".

The whole notion of "sending" your kids to war is a false one. No one "sent" me into the military buy myself.

hell, I was recuited for West Point's first female graduating class (didn't go).

As an anti-Iraq war Mom, with two great daughters, I can see both sides of this.

Thanks for answering the question.

I would never want my children to get hurt or killed. Heck, my kids won't ride a motorcycle until age 18...then they can do what they want. But beyond 18, telling them what to do is essentially forcing my views and opinions down their throats. They are free adults, they can do what they want.

If either of my kids decide to join the military, it won't bother me, depending on what career field they go into. If it's infantry or something related to that, and a shooting war is going on, I will certainly be very apprehensive. But I won't stand in their way.

My own mother is nervous about me being deployed. But if anything, she's been very supportive of my career.

until Bush started abusing it.

Niece was headed for the AF...they lost a good one when she decided better 3 years ago.

My eldest would be a fantastic officer -- maybe JAG school -- but she's quite aware & turned off by what's going on.

Our neighbor kid (A student) speaks/reads/ writes Persian, English & Spanish, and whose Dad is big in the Army (career -- officer -- won't say more--I have reason to believe he's worked at GITMO) is in ROTC but if the asshat kids keep abusing HIM for being 'Muslim' (they're Catholic, mom's from latin america, dad's Iranian), he'll quite possibly change his mind. He'd be a hell of an asset with those languages.

My girls, if there's a repub president? Only over my dead body.

They cover stuff not measured in the other achievement tests.

But the recruiters will not leave her alone. This I promise you.

I am also wondering if she has made some kind of deal with her uncle because he gets money if he recruits people and if he has fast tracked her ...


ggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrr

That ought to do it.

If she is a smart kid as you say it will.

Don

something dumb like that. She WILL have to make up her own mind. All we can do is give advice but in the end it is their decision and if you come across like that you could lose your kid for good.

...you would say "She WILL have to make up her own mind.", and pretty much leave it at that?

Holy shit.

Would you feel the same way if Bush had invaded Canada and had our military slaughtering Canadians?

Don

Yes she will have to make up her own mind about the service. Many people have done well in the service and it can be a good career. I know that telling what appears to be a smart young lady what she will or won't do isn't going to cut it.

I just said I would stress to her that there would be financial consequences for certain actions she may choose to make.

And as I said if she is smart she will make the right decision.

Don

mistakes. If she is as smart as she sounds, she will probably do well in the military. I hope it all works out for the best.

There are some people in the military that make that decision on their own, and then they are taken into custody to let the legal system sort it out. But by far, 99% of the people serving over here do so without killing innocent people. In fact, many of the people I have met haven't even killed ONE person, innocent or not.

What is the civilian death toll currently?

Who killed them?

Can you explain what a free fire zone is for the folks here unfamiliar with the term?

I am familiar with the ROEs as explained to me prior to getting here....and they never mentioned such zones where you can just kill who you want. Sorry.

Are you familiar with use of force training? And what's considered appropriate use of force? I went through that training on several occasions and I'm not even a shooter.

and those are always very nice and civilized.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwwMF6biCJU&feature=related

(I wish you'd take your recruiting act elsewhere. It's not even subtle.)

I like Cheese and sausage?

Is now the fountain of official US policy? I'd doubt that. I went through a month long class prior to coming here, and several other courses that I'm required to take annually that deal with the use of force and what's considered acceptable. Killing anything that moves is NOT an officially sanctioned use of force, and never has been.

And no, I'm not trying to recruit anyone, that's not my job...just trying to speak up in response to some of the hatchet jobs on here. One of my peeves of many of the discussion boards out there is that there are too many know-it-alls, that just because they had a neighbor who had a friend that knows someone at work that went to Iraq, now they are experts in what's going on there...to the point of telling someone who's been here four times (me and probably others) that they are full of BS.

I don't want to give the impression this was just one person testifying.
http://www.zcommunications.org/zmag/viewArticle/17485

More videos on request, just ask. And these are all videos from people who have been there, not folks with a neighbor who knows a friend, and not anonymous posters on a message board. :)

More ROE: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3411565

That I've been deployed four times to Iraq...I've got friends in various Army National Guard units that have been deployed at least once or twice....many friends in my branch (USAF) have been deployed there on ground tours serving as ALOs to the Army...and yet none of them told me of any ROEs stating they can kill anyone they want in certain areas. None of them told me that killing civilians is normal business. I asked a guy today that I ran into, he had served as an airstrike coordinator out in the field with the 3rd ID the last time they were here (they are here now again) and he said no way, the ROEs were actually very stringent and at times even tied the hands of the soldiers.

I also find it interesting the ONLY people that have said anything about having "kill 'em all" ROEs are these ex-soldiers-turned-politicos...it smells of something. Perhaps they witnessed something bad go down on a unit level. Perhaps their buddies decided to disregard the ROEs out of anger of losing friends. But that by no means indicates the US military as a whole sanctions or plans the killing of innocent civilians with loose ROEs saying "kill anything".

I'm glad you'd believe the testimony of a guy who calls him self a "hood rat", and spent 7 months in theater, and speaks as though he's trying to be eminem, over someone who's spent 4 tours in theater...along with the many other people I could find that would refute that as well.

"I write YOU out of my life." Two can play at that sort of game.

But you won't be spending any of my money afterwords.

Fair deal?

Don

When the child says:

"Goodbye, you will never see me, or your potential son-in-law, or your potential grandchildren, ever, period. You made your decision, this is mine. I hope your ethics means that much to you, and they comfort you in your old age, sickness and infirmity since obviously you care more about your personal ethical beliefs and the welfare of nameless, faceless "innocent" strangers, then your own flesh and blood."

Or even alive with their brains scrambles from PTSD.

Don

The point is is this:

What do parents do when their adult child makes a decision that the parent profoundly disagrees with? Do they disown or disinherit the child, causing an irrevocable break with their child over ethical or political beliefs? And before you say, YES, think for a minute just how many people on this very website have strained or broken relationships with their family over politics or ethics.

So if your kid was bound and determined to join the military, no matter what your objections are, are you willing to risk a permanent break with your child over their decision?

It would definitely be worth it. Because a smart kid would understand how serious I was about this and appreciate it later.

If they went against my advice I would know I did everything I could to prevent it.

Don

If you child still went ahead and joined, are you going to follow through with your threat and sever relations with them?

But I doubt it would be needed.

Is that clear enough for you?

Don

Cause I'd tell you you're a piss-poor fucking excuse for a father that you choose your ethics over me.

I think I have succeeded in raising brighter kids than you obviously are.

Good day.

Don

flipping the bird at a controlling, smothering parent?

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Try freaking out when one comes home and announces she wants a tattoo for example, think screaming and threats are going to work?

Can't you see Greenbriar is worried sick about her daughter being seduced into the military by a beloved cousin? I am a military brat, and wholly support the military but I am extremely grateful that my son is now OUT of the Navy.

direction she wants to take when she feel like growing up. Seems like she's a bit ahead in life and has been pushing the books hard. Why don't you get a couple of brochures on the Peace Corp or Ameri Corp... Seems like she wants to serve.. If you listen to Obama, you feel like serving in some capacity other than selfishly compete for the corner office with good pay. So..give her some counter options that would be something you could stand for and would know has a better means to an end.. then she can come back from a year abroad or in this country and be ready to direct her college studies...

and let her talk to the vets. She may well change her mind a year from now...uncle may get sorely disillusioned from the war and may be singing a different tune himself.

Depending on who the peace group vets are. Some I've talked to are profoundly anti-military, and were probably not that into the military when they first joined anyways.

Personally, I would find someone who served, but doesn't have extreme views one way or the other...that's about 95% of all the vets out there. They'll probably tell her they had some interesting and amazing experiences...coupled with some bad ones. She can make the call at that point on her own.

She was gruesomely murdered in Iraq and the military told her parents that she committed suicide. She is not the only one. Her story was told by her parents last Thursday on Democracy Now. www.democracynow.org

LaVena sounded like the OP's daughter, bright, talented. But she chose to serve in the Army. Also show her the video of her parents, the pain in their faces is heartwrenching. :cry:

It got my oldest son a good job when he was deployed and stop lossed with the National Guard...
but he took it so he wouldn't be a target or have to be shooting bullets and it worked out.
He got the highest score of his group and he then got sent to specialized training in computers
and networking (CISCO) now that he's out he has a great job in networking.... on telephone poles!
Good $$ too! ;)

BUT

I feel your pain, greenbriar. :hug:

I sent my 2nd oldest son out to the Midwest to visit his father a week after he graduated high school
and on his way home, he called me during my youngest son's birthday party to let me know he wasn't
coming home and that he was on a boot camp bus, headed to Parris Island as he had joined THE MARINES!!!

:wtf: :grr: :nuke: I was enraged!!!!!!!

EDIT: She signed up to take a test? Make sure she doesn't sign ANYTHING!!!!!!


She might still be able to get out of it, if she is under 18 years old, and enlisted.

Delayed Entry.

---------------------------------

PLEASE READ THIS AND CALL THEM!!!

http://www.afsc.org/youthmil/thinking-of-enlisting/default.htm

American Friends Service Committee

Do You Know Enough to Enlist?

* Military recruiters and ads promise a lot. Before you join, take a good look at what you're getting into. See our publications page to order in English and Spanish. More >

Ten Points to Consider Before You Sign a Military Enlistment Agreement

* Do not make a hasty decision about enlistment! Learn More >

Is there a Trial Period in the Military?

* There is no such thing as a "trial period," a "period of adjustment," or a chance to get a "flavor of the military." More >

Will I get my GI Bill Benefits?

* The Montgomery GI Bill, as many veterans have found, is no sure bet. Hundreds of thousands have found themselves declared ineligible in the past decade. More >

The Poverty Draft: Eight Things You Need to Know

* The DOD spends more than $4 billion a year to recruit high-achieving, low-income youth. More >


Getting Out of the Military

What is the Difference Between Good and Bad Discharges?

* I have heard that when you leave the US military, you get either a "bad" discharge or a "good" discharge. What does this mean?
More >

The recruiter said that if I got a bad discharge I would still be eligible for GI Bill benefits. Is that true?

* The recruiter is wrong. The current Pentagon education plan for recruits – known as "The New GI Bill" or "The Montgomery GI Bill" – is one of the most widely misunderstood government benefits, apparently even by recruiters. More >

I guess it's a mom thing...my wife wanted to join the Air Force to be a nurse (she's 35) and her mom said no, and threatened to take her to court to get custody of her daughters if she did. I kept telling my wife if she wanted to do it, just do it, because she's an adult. But she bowed to her mom's pressure and now we're having to pay all the tuition for nursing school (AF would have paid it all). By the way, I'm in the AF too.

Oh, and that stuff you posted...SOME of it is correct, sorta. But overall, it's not accurate, and misleading in some cases.

:eyes:

:grr:

But I spent five years, two of that after the invasion of Afghanistan in the Army so, yeah, I probably do know jack. People join the military for a laundry list of different reasons and few of the people I met in my time in service joined to "support the war." Most joined for economic reasons or for the benefits. In fact, most of the people I know in the military (and I still know many) are opposed to the war. Not to say I didn't meet quite a few who joined so they could run off and shoot them some brown people, but even a lot of those got an attitude adjustment when they realized what war really entails.

And they didn't go to Iraq because of Gawd and Country... they went because

their brothers and sisters who were also stop lossed and were going but

THEY DID NOT WANT TO BE THERE AND THEY THOUGHT BUSH WAS FULL OF SHIT!!!

They still think that and they think the Iraq OCCUPATION is a CRIME!!

I didn't join to support the war...I wasn't stop lossed and I've been over here 4 times. I joined in 1992 in the Army Guard, and went active duty in 1999 in the Air Force. I volunteered for the lastest tour...why? Because I love Bush? Because I love war? No, I hate this place, and I don't know why anyone would live here...and I hate the fact I have to be away from my family for a year. BUT, I will do alot of good for the Iraqis and in past tours I did alot of good for the poor guys on the ground. Watch the movie Band of Brothers...good example...they didn't necessarily do it for God and country, but they did it for each other in the end. I was already in the military, and I wasn't about to get out just because of our nation's politics...I came here because not doing so would let down those who did, some of them willingly and some unwillingly. In any case, tone down your rhetoric. You're the reason so many Democrats get accused of not supporting the troops.

My mom was a Vietnam war protester, so she was obviously not thrilled that I decided to join the Navy (pre-9/11). But, I wanted to get out and try new things. I wanted to travel the world and not be confined to a cube in some office building. The military is not an evil industry, but you can say that it's sagging under our current civilian leadership. And, there is much more to the military than just Iraq. The Navy is doing great humanitarian work around the world, and the Coast Guard has extensive counter-drug programs that are very exciting and rewarding.

If I were you, I'd direct her to talk to people who are in the military. The recruiters will lie their assess off to get people to join, but people who are in can be more honest. And, personally, I didn't fully understand what I was committing myself to besides free college and a guaranteed job (plus free health care, which is actually much better than people give it credit for). I have talked to people about the Navy and Naval Academy, and I especially like talking to other women about the service. I'm not going to promote it, but I'll answer any questions she has honestly.

Also, you can tell her, if I had it to do over again, I would join the Air Force or Coast Guard, but if she wants to be a pilot, the Navy has the most opportunities. But, that's just from my observations.

I think it's important not to drive her away in this process or she might end up doing something out of spite.

She's too young as yet but she's already able to perform all the physical requirements. Personally, I keep hoping she'll change her mind (once she wanted to be a ballerina...) but if she doesn't, I'll have to accept it. I have told her that I don't think she'd care for eating dirt in the Army or the Marines, and she likes boats more than planes (and sports cars more than either.) We could afford to send her to a private college if we had to. I've told her that she must apply to civilian schools as well. Maybe if you told your daughter that she can apply to West Point so long as she applies elsewhere, that would make her look at her wider options. But I echo those who say 'try to be an officer'...for their mess if nothing else!

right away they started talking 'nuclear navy'...eventually i was rejected because of a birth defect- my right hand kinda sorta resembles gary burgoff's left hand(radar o'reilly -m*a*s*h, movie & tv show).

i never did get my high school diploma back from them.

they say that to everyone...

i was in the 99th percentile in every category on my act's.

If that fails, kneecap her. Just kidding.

Take her to a Veteran's Hospital.

Once she sees the results of war, she might change her mind.

Or at least sit down and talk with her about it because telling most teenagers that something is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN is usually the best way to ensure that it does.

The war and the Army are not the same thing.

& keep her up late the night before...

I'd go on but i'd be flamed.

A mom /dad's gotta do what a mom/dad's gotta do.

If she did hs in 3, she can probably do college in 2! Then if she wants to join, she can be an officer.

Your cuz will probably have a whole different story when he gets back.

we flew into Atlanta and sat with a noncom, an officers daughter who told us at that time. "Go home as fast as you can. Get out while you still can." I didn't and had the most traumatic few weeks of my life of officer on enlisted voilence, male on female violence, white on black violence, calling the Catholics "malingerers" for attending weekly mass, culminating in a race riot, then lockdown/marchall law/ followed by an offer to let us go home with an honorable discharge. Over half took them up on it. (WACS military intelligence.

I had a sister 15 years younger than I am. Her best friend went in to the Army and had a different but similar experience with the same outcome. (Reverves parpalegal)

In 1998 my (now) daughter-in-law joined because her best friend did. She ended up testifying about her friends gang rape by a real gang and was given an honorable dishcarge because the Army could not guarantee her safty anywhere after she testified. (helicopter repair).

So you can tell your daughter for me. "Stay home, serve your country without being cannon fodder or a victim of a gang." You will not be appreciated, or respected nor safe at any time overseas or stateside."
Some things don't change. You can do more in the Army today but you are still considered comfort women by far too many other fellow soldiers and if you get sick they throw you to the curb, you have to fight for benefits and you often get hijacked into something you didn't sign up for."

I went to boot in 72. Boot camp is by definition lockdown & martial law--you just abdicated most of your rights and all of your freedom. You make it sound like it was all Private Benjamen until there was a fight. In my experience nobody ever got a discharge from boot camp except for medical.

In your experience you did not have a full scale race riot at midnight with people storming the barracks to gather supporters, Nov 1971 Anniston Army Depot. You did not see hundreds of armed soldiers head for the woods with their gear and experience that nothing moved on base after dark, not MPs, no ambulances for at least 2 1/2 weeks when 30 of us left from our unit on the day I flew out. You did not experience troops hunting down other troops who did not manage to escape over the fences and hear the shots for 2 1/2 weeks as they shot at each other (amd cars amd ambulances because they thought they were a ruse, full of MPs. Oh, no lights allowed on in the buildings, no evening mess, only prepackaged stuff in the barracks.

This was before Private Benjamin and we were WACS not regular Army. We were not issued weapons. We got some duck and cover training and one afternoon of shooting a rifle and a pistol. I had seen "No time for Sargent's but there was nothing like this in any movie until recently. Ours was the only unit in our building that was not totally hysterical the first night. We were allowed to go fraternize, I think they called it, and calm the others down. Usually we could only interact with the other units on our time off. We were even supposed to sit apart at meals.

I wrote to three women that stayed in and they all said they wished they had left.

The only people that seemed to find some meaning in the WACS were those who had had it really bad, extreme poverty, no real family or abuse. Can't say how it was before Vietnam.

I was in an integrated male/female basic training unit and there were probably fewer harassment issues than one finds in a standard office environment. People were to damn tired to harass each other because it was a lot of hard work. When you have to work as a team, race and sex tend to go out the window pretty quick.

Do rapes only occur in the military? Can you show me any sort of statistic that indicate incidents of rape of military personnel or rapes done by military personnel are more frequent than outside?

:eyes:

So, as I was saying... I guess all that military "team work" means something else in the field?



:(

1) In the civilian world, when you are raped, you can get access to emergency contraception.
2) In the civilian world (depending on your finances and where you live) you can get access to an abortion.
3) In the civilian world, if your boss or coworkers raped you, you can quit your job.
4) In the civilian world, if you are raped, you aren't required to live in the same building as your rapist for the months/years afterward.

(I could keep going.)

Now some statistics:
60% of women (in the military) have experienced military sexual trauma
23% of women have experienced military sexual assault
11% of women have experienced rape (while in the military)

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/336/fact-check-military-sexual-trauma.html

When you are comparing these to civilian statistics, keep in mind the timeframes. Don't compare rape statistics for a 4 year enlistment, for example, to statistics for a civilian woman's entire life. Compare like time periods.

Think of it as one of those "Draw Bambi and see if you have the aptitude to be an artist" ads in the back of a pulp magazine.

my daughter's twenty....i can't imagine going through this with her (thank god it was something we missed having to deal with)

i think when you fill out a fafsa form they ask something about that--so maybe kids who take it qualify for another "scholarship" or something. we didn't check the box because whatever that army test was my kid hadn't taken it.
but if memory serves me correctly--it might add some scholarship money onto the college fafsa form

in the meantime--i'd ground her! (you want to go be a soldier, then start living like one. room spotless, in bed by ten, up at the crack of dawn, etc.)

then i'd have a talk with the uncle (is it your brother or your husband's?) and tell him to go fuck off and leave her the hell alone

then i'd make her watch every documentary made on this fucking war you can dig up. start with WHY WE FIGHT by eugene jurecki (sp?). and show her some nice, full color photographs of the ravages of the iraq war.

then explain to her why the army targets kids -- because they have that "i'll be okay, nothing is gonna happen to me, i'm gonna live forever" syndrome and the army knows that they wouldn't get nearly enough people they need if they targeted mature thinking adults.

-----
i have to say (against those who say you have to let her go/grow up, etc) that you are her parent! you will always be her parent. you want the best for her. wanting the best for her does not mean standing back and letting her make fucked up life changing/life threatening decisions just because you have to "let her go sometime." NO! if you believe she is doing something to jeopardize herself than it is your responsibility as a parent to prevent that from happening. 16, 18, 20, whatever. but at this point she is still a child. (she's trying to grow up, but she's still a kid--don't' forget that. your opinion matters, your input matters, your approval matters).
----
that's my advice. good luck with this.

:hug:

That's another great one for making a person look past "what's in it for me" (which is much of what the soldiers (?) in this thread seem to be focused on), and forcing you to question the moral implications of our actions on a larger scale, and the ways in which we are manipulated.

The other documentaries I suggested are more personal stories of people who were there and how it affected them. And that's partly why, even though it sounds grand to make 60k straight out of college, over a lifetime, the earnings of vets are lower - because they are hit with mental and physical disabilities that don't always show up immediately, and that affects their ability to hold down a regular job, or a regular job that is stressful.

I feel bad for the gung-ho troops that are there now. The Desert Storm Troops, which was my era, more than one out of three of them has now filed for disability. And they didn't have that much time there, multiple deployments, all that exposure in the same way.

And really it's just a test.

and if you think it is just a test, then you don't really understand this mess we are in!

And didn't join the military. Yes, it's just a test.

when she's 18 she'll go in the other direction. Just let it be...it will likely pass and just turn out to be a phase. If it doesn't and she does join, there's nothing you can do after 18.

Even though none of us had any intention of joining the military -- it was just to get out of class. This could be why she's actually doing it.

Just a caveat: all of us did very well on it and had recruiters call us up all through our senior years trying to get us to sign up for, at the very least, ROTC.

It scares me, but I am trying to be supportive. He has a couple years to change his mind. He wants to work on jets.

Take a deep breath and realize that two years in teen years is a long time. They change ALOT.

During the first week of training a chief asked: "Who was the last one that F*cked you?"
A variety of girls names were spoken.
Then the chief laughed and said' You're all wrong! It was your recruiter!.
He wasn't kidding.

A very close friend's boyfriend deciding to join. His brother was serving in Iraq, both are immigrants and don't have the history to fully understand what America uses its military for. In that way, they are not so different from a bright - but still typical - teenager here.

She called me up and asked me to go talk to him. Well, you know, if I say don't join, let me tell you why, he would just go into defense mode, dig his heels in. Instead, I went the other way, nonconfrontational. The thing is, you won't change her mind by her knowing YOUR feelings. You'll change it by having HER change HER feelings. (Excuse the caps).

So I said I had a video of a movie with some of my friends in it, and asked if we could watch it together. They agreed to that. I gave a disclaimer up front to him that if it bothered him, he could leave or tell me to shut it off, and I wouldn't be offended, I just wanted to show it to my friend, because, like I said, I am friends with some people in it. The movie was The Ground Truth, don't know if you've seen it. I'm happy to talk more about that if you haven't.

When we sat down, he had already talked to the recruiter multiple times - and had cut off all his hair and given himself the buzzcut in preparation - he was pretty serious. He watched the movie without so much as getting up for a glass of water. At the end, he was pissed, and he wanted to know why the troops don't just take over our government and fix things. I didn't have to convince him, I never said one way or another what I thought HE should do. A couple times I said - oh, yeah, that happened to me, too, or I know someone that happened to, but never "you should" or "you shouldn't" enlist.

if she's 16, you have over a year, maybe two depending on which end of 16 she is. I would spend that time educating her (as opposed to lecturing and yelling).

There are a couple things we do when we are counter-recruiting formally. One is that we sit down with the students and give them a copy of the enlistment "contract" so they can read the fine print for themselves. Ask her to get a copy of a blank one from her recruiter - and maybe throw in a suggestion that if they won't let her have it "for some reason" you can help her track one down elsewhere. She'll probably think pffft, the recruiter will give me one. So that will be her first moment of suspicion, cause they likely won't give her a blank, knowing she wants to take it home and read it carefully with another adult.

Once you get it, have her go through it line by line with a highlighter, highlighting the sections that make her uneasy, or that she has questions about. Anything she's got a question about, feel free to ask here, and I will answer - either in PMs or in the main forum - but if you ask in a thread, PM me with a link so I know to look for it.

In this old thread that my sister started, I highlighted a few choice morsels from the contract: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x990783

Next up, I ALWAYS tell young women if they go in or not, that's their choice, and I'm not here to tell them WHAT to do. I'm there to make sure if they decide to go, they go in with realistic expectations. But if they do decide to go in, because so very many women are raped (or are victims of rape attempts) in the military, they NEED to take a self-defense course BEFORE they enlist. The military will not give them the skills they need to fight off an attack by a fellow soldier/group of soldiers, and if they are raped, the military's not going to help them out - they need to be able to fend for themselves. I'm pretty blunt on that - as a woman, a self-defense course is a requirement.

I'm gonna look for another movie, also - I'm not sure if it's still online or not.

"We're Sorry."

This was filmed by the BBC during the Gulf March (I can give some links on that if you want the background).

I suggest downloading it - when I tried to play it online, the video was not keeping up with the audio, it was annoying. It's 22 minutes long.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12552.htm

You are welcome to message me as many times as you like, also, if you want advice in private. I'm comfortable giving it either way - in messages or threads.

And then be sure to tell them to bugger off until she's 18!

she'll probably score very high in the test. An honest recruiter will tell her to go the college route. She can then decide. I was in the Naval Reserve for 6 years and never went on active duty. Started as Ensign and separated as Lt. I only did a few correspondence courses.

"An honest recruiter will tell her to go the college route"

A recruiter will be needing to make their quota, which they aren't going to do that way.

Make her visit a VA hospital first and have her speak to some veterans there.

I answered the questions randomly. They left me alone.

and she has her SR year left in HS


but I will NOT stand by and let her do this

Maybe all you can do. There are no real moral, or more importantly legal barriers you can erect to prevent her from doing this. And the more you rage against her choice, and it is hers, the more you will drive here toward it. C'mon, you're not stupid, you remember what it was like when your parents "laid down the law". It just made you that much more determined to do what YOU wanted, and not what your parents wanted.

The idiot fucking Marine (nothing against Marines...I just can't stand idiots) who gave the test got all up in our faces like it was Scared Straight or something. He ended up kicking a couple kids out, and the rest of us just laughed, finished the test, then went and smoked some doobage and got on with the rest of our lives. I think I may have registered for the draft that same day...maybe not. It was a looong time ago. (That's the first time I've ever spelled out the word "doobage", pronounced DEW-bij. It looks funny.)

Anyway...Strange days, indeed. Most peculiar...

if you disagree with anything i say, it is not an attack. it is my personal experience. if i am wrong then just ignore my post and pretend you never saw it.

this is just me. not you and your relationship with your children...

i remember when i was 16. i was feeling my oats and i loved fucking with my parents whenever i could. my father was determined i would go to college. i was a good, not quite great student and had real possibilities of doing that. in retrospect i appreciate my folks pushing me in that direction, at the time i was not so sure.

i heard about this test and that it was a non-binding thing. i liked taking tests (is that weird?) and i knew my parents feelings about the military. (back then) they gave you a van ride to the testing center, a snack, and then a test. so i signed up.

ha! i could get a snack, take a test and fuck with my parents all in one day. gold.

again, back then it was a really fun test. it wasn't like "would you kill this foreigner or that one" but a lot of complicated logic and abstract thinking problems (assembling one dimensional shapes into three dimensional objects and whatnot.) great fun.


my only complaint was that they never relieved how we all scored or the rankings of the event. that sucked. what is the point of a test if you don't tell scores? the recruiter did ask me to sit in the front seat of the van as we drove home and complimented me about the test. but i was there to test (and piss-off) and this fucker wouldn't confide the results?

that totally assured me that i could not trust this guy that i just met, more than my folks who had stuck with me from the get-go and always had my best interests in mind.

later in life i would see the same tactics used on the topic of "timeshares."


i didn't enlist. i shook the folks (yay). i went to college. i never bought a timeshare.



my only advice would be to not view this from the perspective of the bush war machine swallowing up your child. it could be something as simple as your daughter liking to take tests. or it might be your daughter just fucking with you because she is 16 and she knows she can. it might be a great life lesson like it was for me. who knows, she 16.

a 16 year old. all bets are off.

and then as the controlling parent i am, they can't make a decision until they are 18.


yo, greenbriar. your daughter will not make the wrong decision. you have taught her well. just be careful of how hard you push on the issue. do not try to make your decisions her decisions. let her "fuck you" a bit right now. let her become her own woman, you knowing that she can't for 2 more years. let her get her way. let her learn these lying sacks of shit are lying sacks of shit.


again, please ignore anything i have posted. sorry for being so... me...


and good luck...

you did not offend me in the least and made a lot of sense

thank you

I will have to ask him if he has ever taken that test, he hasn't said anything about it. I can't imagine she will be able to sign up at 16 without your permission. She will have 2 years to think about it, I am sure she will change her mind, 16 year olds change their minds about their future constantly. If she really really wants to join the service, she should sign up for ROTC in college, she will get her 4 years of college and if she still wants to go in the service, she at least would be an officer when she gets out of school, if that is really what she wants to do.

If I am not mistaken, if someone already in the Army gets someone else to sign up, don't they get bonus $$?

When I was in high school which was not too long ago it was either they got a bonus or a promotion. Some of the students in my high school would sign up and then come back to the school before they graduated high school and went to boot camp. They would try to recruit three other student in order to be able to go in as an E-3 instead of an E-1. The students who had spent their four years in JROTC did not have to do that in that they already qualified to go in as an E-3.

From what I can see, your daughter is worth $2,000 to him. http://www.2k.army.mil/bonus_program.htm

That right there would piss me off as a parent.

I figure if the army was such a great financial deal, he wouldn't need to sell his niece to the army to make an extra buck.

and I sent said Uncle an email telling him exactly what I thought!

Depends...officers don't get bonuses for helping recruiters. Junior enlisted can receive a small bonus for doing so. Honestly those guys deserve any extra money they can get.

Some otherwise "book smart" kids don't do well on practical applications, which is what the military is looking for.
I wouldn't pack away those Ivy League pennants yet!

It's sort of a non-college version of the SAT...not saying it's as HARD as the SAT, but it covers multiple areas. Let's hope she doesn't flunk it or that doesn't mean good things for college entrance exams!

So that she is more likely to get into a career field of her choice. I'm not sure what percentage they consider as flunking, but it is probably less now that we need more service people. If she is in the tope quarter of her high school class, she is unlikely to outright flunk.
The test does include several different sections. Most of them the sections are academically related. The only section that I did poorly on was the non academically related part about tools and vehicle repair (I forget the exact title). I didn't really think that I knew anything about that. I did score in the 35th percentile still and it didn't bring my total score down too badly as I scored the 90th percentile or higher in the others.

...you might consider taking a family trip there-with an extended visit to Walter Reed Hospital.

Once she sees kids, not much older than herself, who have been wounded, that might make the war less of a TV mediated abstraction in her mind.

mostly out of curiosity.

Honestly, it did more to put me off of military service than anything else. The test was so depressingly easy that it made me want to keep looking at my other options.

It's a fucking aptitude test. It doesn't mean she's joining the Army any more that taking the SAT means she's going to Harvard.

I'm amazed at how irrational some people can become sometimes. Your reply was perfect.