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Zbigniew Brzezinski on conflict between Russia and Georgia - June 12

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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:20 PM
Original message
Zbigniew Brzezinski on conflict between Russia and Georgia - June 12
Edited on Sat Aug-09-08 05:21 PM by JoeIsOneOfUs
I don't think very many people watched this. Went back to listen to it again and Georgia was one of the first things he mentioned.

Hearing video archive (starts about 17:30 minutes into the tape) - http://foreign.senate.gov/archives/2008/archive061208.ram

Hearing info - http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/2008/hrg080612p.html

Took a few notes here that day - his remarks on the impact of conflict with Iran on our elections were what jumped out at me at the time.
SFRC hearing on Oil, Oligarchs, and Opportunity
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3430970

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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Whoa - I'm so interested in what he has to say. Thanks for the links!! nt
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm typing out his predictions on Georgia at 22 minutes in. nt
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. 22 minutes into video - impact of Georgian conflict on western oil:
"We have, fourthly, seen instances of possible threats to Georgia from Russia, motivated not so much in reality by any serious territorial problems -- though there are territorial problems between Russia and Georgia -- but derived more from the desire to gain a controlling hand over the Baku - Ceyhan line. If the Georgian government were to be destabilized, Western access to Baku, to the Caspian, and beyond would be limited."
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. It's always about the oil. Always. nt
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. kick so I can find this later
:kick:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Gee, I wonder what the world's biggest Russophobe will say! Oh wait, I don't.
Not clicking the links, but let me guess. Russia is BAD!
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. if you don't care, why click and snark? he's way more nuanced than that. nt
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Because I fucking hate Zbigniew Brzezinski and his bullshit over the last 3 decades.
Carter shouldn't have brought him on board.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. if you want to tell me where he's wrong on his statements on Russia and oil
then I'll learn something. Just telling me you fucking hate someone doesn't help me understand.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'll just say that he has a very obvious axe that he's been grinding with the USSR/Russia since...
the late 1970's. Asking his opinion on this matter is like asking Le Pen about immigration of Muslims into Western Europe.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. Brzezinski stirring up trouble again?



Obama needs to do better than this PNAC member.



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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Calling Brezinski a PNAC member would be like calling Teddy Kennedy a Republican

Mr. Brezinski is as anti-neoconservative as they come. He absolutely loathes them. His views are diametrically opposed to everything the neocons think about managing world affairs.

Within the foreign policy establishment there are now two dominating schools of thought, the neoconservatives (including their Democratic Party equivalents) and the realist (including their Republican Party equivalents). Zbigniew Brzezinski is to the realist what Richard Perle is to the neoconservatives.

It would be hard to find anyone in the foreign policy establishment more different from the PNAC than Brezinski.


Terrorized by 'War on Terror: How a Three-Word Mantra Has Undermined America


By Zbigniew Brzezinski

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301613.html


snip:"The damage these three words have done -- a classic self-inflicted wound -- is infinitely greater than any wild dreams entertained by the fanatical perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks when they were plotting against us in distant Afghan caves. The phrase itself is meaningless. It defines neither a geographic context nor our presumed enemies. Terrorism is not an enemy but a technique of warfare -- political intimidation through the killing of unarmed non-combatants."

snip:"To justify the "war on terror," the administration has lately crafted a false historical narrative that could even become a self-fulfilling prophecy. By claiming that its war is similar to earlier U.S. struggles against Nazism and then Stalinism (while ignoring the fact that both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were first-rate military powers, a status al-Qaeda neither has nor can achieve), the administration could be preparing the case for war with Iran. Such war would then plunge America into a protracted conflict spanning Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and perhaps also Pakistan"

snip:"The entertainment industry has also jumped into the act. Hence the TV serials and films in which the evil characters have recognizable Arab features, sometimes highlighted by religious gestures, that exploit public anxiety and stimulate Islamophobia. Arab facial stereotypes, particularly in newspaper cartoons, have at times been rendered in a manner sadly reminiscent of the Nazi anti-Semitic campaigns. Lately, even some college student organizations have become involved in such propagation, apparently oblivious to the menacing connection between the stimulation of racial and religious hatreds and the unleashing of the unprecedented crimes of the Holocaust."

snip:"In the meantime, the "war on terror" has gravely damaged the United States internationally. For Muslims, the similarity between the rough treatment of Iraqi civilians by the U.S. military and of the Palestinians by the Israelis has prompted a widespread sense of hostility toward the United States in general. It's not the "war on terror" that angers Muslims watching the news on television, it's the victimization of Arab civilians. And the resentment is not limited to Muslims. A recent BBC poll of 28,000 people in 27 countries that sought respondents' assessments of the role of states in international affairs resulted in Israel, Iran and the United States being rated (in that order) as the states with "the most negative influence on the world." Alas, for some that is the new axis of evil!"

snip:"Where is the U.S. leader ready to say, "Enough of this hysteria, stop this paranoia"? Even in the face of future terrorist attacks, the likelihood of which cannot be denied, let us show some sense. Let us be true to our traditions."

"Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter, is the author most recently of "Second Chance: Three Presidents and the Crisis of American Superpower"



---------------



"I think of war with Iran as the ending of America's present role in the world. Iraq may have been a preview of that, but it's still redeemable if we get out fast. In a war with Iran, we'll get dragged down for 20 or 30 years. The world will condemn us. We will lose our position in the world."

Zbigniew Brzezinski, Vanity Fair, 2006.


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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thank you for the reality check!
Excellent summarization of what Zbiggy represents vis a vis Realists vs. NeoCons. He is by no means progressive but he's a far cry from the suicidal neocon maniacs. He has an extremely deft understanding of the exact kind of global power politics Putin and the Chinese engage in. We would do well to listen to what he says. He's an internationalist and we need to prop up international institutions. Only then can we reform them and lead them toward more progressive ends.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. last quote is interesting - in the hearing he talked about impact of war w/ Iran on our elections
one of the things that jumped out at me back when I listened to it the first time.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Perhaps so if one thinks 911 was hatched in a cave in Afghanistan.
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 06:29 PM by Wilms
I don't.

"We need a Pearl Harbor event to unify the people behind the war for global Imperial conquest." - Zbigniew Brzezinski "The Grand Chessboard - 1997)


:puke:


But please pardon my error identifying him as a PNAC member. I think he was merely on their reading list.

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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Link, please?
What page is that quote on? It sounds like a very bad paraphrasing.


"The attitude of the American public toward the external projection of American power has been much more ambivalent. The public supported America's engagement in World War II largely because of the shock effect of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. (pp 24-5)



"Moreover, as America becomes an increasingly multi-cultural society, it may find it more difficult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues, except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat." (p. 211)


I think he had his ear to the ground and knew exactly what the neocons were thinking of. It doesn't mean he supported it. In fact, all his writings have been super critical of PNAC methods and goals.
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arthritisR_US Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. the Georgia bombing is about oil, power and control, IMO. n/t
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks - bookmarked n/t
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Popol Vuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. Zbigniew Brzezinski should be called the God Father of PNAC
PNAC sounds just like it came from Zbigniew Brzezinski. I loath the man as much as I loath Regan and the Bushes.

I think before any Democrat or Liberal cites Brzezinski they should first get a better idea of the man by reading his book "The Grand Chessboard" printed in 1997 and is almost an exact blueprint of what see the PNAC'ers doing today for their idealism of Global Supremacy.


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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Exact opposite blue print
Chessboard lays out what is at stake in the global power game. He has been a very vocal critic of the methods PNACers want to use to achieve the goals of American hegemony. He thinks their methods were the exact opposite of what should have been done and greatly imperil the US position.
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Popol Vuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I am sorry but you're incorrect
I posted a few video clips which cite some of his book.

"American Primacy"? "Primacy"?


Anyway, even just in the video clips which cite some of his book, you can see your error in judging him.


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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You're missing the point
Both realists and Neocons have the same goal: American hegemony. The way they want to go about it is different. I watched the clips you provided and Zbig's grand strategy is the same as US geostrategy from 1947-2001. As bad as that has been it is markedly different from the NeoCons.

You are right to disparage both strategies, but I think it is important to distinguish between the two. Under realism it remains remotely possible to architect an international system that may eventually be reformed towards greater degrees of economic and social justice. Neoconservatism's most likely outcome is global chaos and the destruction of America. This may hasten a global revolution but the consequences are likely too grim to bear and the end result may not be anything better than we have now.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. they ALL support an imperial worldview just as they ALL support the capitalist system
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 11:08 PM by Douglas Carpenter
That is the entire foreign policy establishment of both political parties and certainly the entire foreign policy advisory team of both major candidates.

But Brzezinski is as far from Neoconservative thinking within the context of the foreign policy establishment as one could possibly get.

Suggesting that Brzezinski is the same as the Neocons because the realist are also imperial in their worldview would be like suggesting that George McGovern is the same as Ronald Reagan because because McGovern liberals are also pro-capitalist in their worldview.

Perhaps in the best of all possible worlds, or even at some later future date in this world, it might be imaginable that there could be leading members of the foreign policy establishment of at least one of the parties who sees things otherwise. But that is certainly not the case at this time.

To refuse to align with the realist which are THE ONLY AVAILABLE option against the neoconservatives who are coming very close to dominating the foreign policy thinking of both parties - on the grounds that the realist are not anti-imperialist would be like refusing to support liberals against against right-wing Republicans because the liberals are also also pro-capitalist.

Not long ago I was listening to Noam Chomsky in an interview being asked how does he account for the likes of James Baker and Brent Scowcroft (two Republican realist) opposing many of George W. Bush's foreign policy decisions. Professor Chomsky answered, "because they are not insane."

The realist are the simply the ONLY AVAILABLE CHOICE THAT ACTUALLY EXIST WITHIN THE CORRIDORS OF POWER - who provide an alternative to the neoconservative insanity.

Listen, this is not some abstraction or theory about that which plays out only in the classroom. I live in the Middle East and have for close to half my life. Millions and upon millions of people live here and have nowhere else to go. It is the only home they will ever have. If supporting the realist, be it Brzezinski or even Baker or Scowcroft, is the ONLY AVAILABLE ALTERNATIVE to keep neoconservative insanity (and they exist with the Democratic Party too, just read the evil madmen who write for The New Republic or turn out papers for The Progressive Policy Institute) If supporting Brzezinski and the realist against neocon madness is the ONLY AVAILABLE ALTERNATIVE to keeping the neoconservatives at bay and from plunging the region into the fires of hell - then so be it. This is not the world of obtuse theory. This is the only world that exist for countless millions of people. And I would dine with the devil himself rather than see the neocons unleash their madness on the Middle East and indeed the whole world.
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Popol Vuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
22. Here's some Zbigniew Brzezinski
A few short youtube clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Uc8gpFe5s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RehaxC2O9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gZBn5yWTAA


Remember the book which is being cited was written back in 1997.


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Winston. Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Thanks for the links
Obama really keeps good company (sarcasm)
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. Brzezinski is pretty much an airhead, as near as I can see,
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 08:40 PM by bemildred
It's like Kruschev being proud because he sucked us into Vietnam. Long on self-aggrandizement and over-arching theories and short on meat and potatoes and facts on the ground.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. Thanks JoeIsOneOfUs


11 hours ago: Women grieve while riding in a vehicle near the town of Dzhava, South Ossetia, Sunday, Aug. 10, 2008, to flee the fighting in the Georgian breakaway region. Georgia, a U.S. ally whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, launched a major offensive overnight Friday to retake control of its breakaway province. The U.N. refugee agency said Friday that hundreds were fleeing the fighting in South Ossetia and seeking safety elsewhere in Georgia or Russia.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. all I can figure out for sure about all this is a lot of innocent people stuck in the middle :-(
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. that is always the problem
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