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On What Moral Ground Do We Have A Right To Tell Russia What To Do?

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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:32 PM
Original message
On What Moral Ground Do We Have A Right To Tell Russia What To Do?
We did everything they're currently doing. Even if Russia is dead wrong, we don't have a moral right to tell them what to do. We forfeited that right by invading a sovreign nation who did nothing to us.

Can't be calling someone a whore when you've been sleeping around yourself.
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Kierkegaard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's a repugnantcon tradition.
"Do as I say, not as I do."
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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was not a land grab
<OPE>
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It Wasn't ??
Edited on Mon Aug-11-08 01:37 PM by atreides1
What would you call it???
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Sure
:eyes:
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. If that's true
Why is the administration fighting so hard to allow U.S. troops to stay in Iraq when the Iraqis want us out?
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. You're right. It was a RESOURCE grab
...the exact same thing that's behind the Georgia vs Russia conflict.
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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. I disagree
Georgia sits on Russia's border and the United States has pushed for its inclusion into NATO.

Even though both Abkhazia and South Ossetia are recognized as part of Georgia by international governing bodies, Russia has clear designs on either taking a chunk out of a Western friendly nation on its border or having a client state (who would need Russian military to protect it, of course) not 50 miles from Tbilisi.

It is not comparable to the United States & Iraq.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. What "international governing bodies"? eom
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:59 PM
Original message
Words are always being used to drive not only the mind but also the heart, these days.
I wonder when people will get fed up with psychological oppression (leading to political and financial and intellectual oppression)?

When?
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
22. When it affects them personally
Unfortunately by then it's probably too late.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. That's how psy-ops work: victims of it don't know what's hit them until it's too late.
x(

It's also a war crime to inflict mental duress. I believe when inflicted upon one's own people to the detriment of the nation it's called, treason.
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Growler Donating Member (896 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. what do you call building 14 "enduring" military bases
in a country that never threatened us??
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. Well then, what the hell was it?
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not only that, but if one of our states, say California, was doing
the same thing as Georgia, the military would be sent in to "restore order". As I stated in another post, we have NO moral standing left.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. We absolutely do not, the hypocrisy is mind blowing.
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. None whatsoever
Edited on Mon Aug-11-08 01:41 PM by Tempest
Panama and Grenada are two examples of how we lost the moral ground to complain.

Unlike Georgia, neither Panama or Grenada were the aggressor and we still invaded.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm not sure about that
While I agree that the Bush Administration's actions have certainly weakened us on the world stage by, among other things, draining away our moral credibility, that doesn't change the fact that Russia's actions are destabilizing and dangerous.

That said, I do think we should let other nations and the UN take the lead here, while pledging to support. Taking a go-it-alone approach her would be a mistake, to put it mildly.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. We haven't had moral high ground since, like 1898....
It doesn't mean that what Russia is doing is ok.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Panama? n/t
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. The same moral ground that we have to tell any sovereign nation what to do,
next to none for the reasons you state. We forfeited that right when we became the barbarians at the gate. Also, we showed the world that if we can do it, they can do it. I think Russia was just waiting for the time they could with impunity gain back the territories they lost when the Soviet Union dissolved.

"But enjoy your drunken vacation in China George and thanks for nothing."
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. None. Absolutely no moral ground whatsever...
And I was thinking about posting a thread on this very topic.

We forged evidence to justify an invasion of Iraq. We lied to, maimed, stole from, and murdered Iraqi civilians. We allowed over 4,000 of our own troops to be killed; 10,000s to be injured. All for a lie...

We have no moral ground to criticize the Russians. None whatsoever...

Thanks for posting this thread.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. You Forgot Torture
It's really hard to keep up with all of the immoral transgressions. We may need a database.
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. This is one of those yessey-noey things.
No, the US has no business telling any country what to do, but yes, it's still all right for individuals, and even the current government, to remind others when they might be trespassing over an ethical line and that they might want to tread softly in certain areas. The danger for all concerned is that such reminders might not be taken seriously, even if the advice is perfectly sound. The Bush government has a certain expertise in behaving badly, which should be taken into consideration.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. Morality, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. And, Americans are notoriously myopic.
As in, dropping bombs on civilians is virtuous if done by American (or, American sponsored) pilots, but heinous if done by others.
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skip fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Bush administration has no right to tell Russia what to do, but America
has the responsibility to denounce aggression.

So . . .
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
18. There are plenty of other countries telling Russia to stop.
It's not just us. Unfortunately the "Bush doctrine" is as morally bankrupt as its creators, and can be used to justify just about anything.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. This goes way beyond
"Hello, Kettle. Pot here." Our reputation has been trashed, thrown into the dumpster along with the Constitution that gave us a degree of moral authority. As if the whole world didn't already know how Bush regards the very idea of national sovreignty. Criminy.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
21. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Maybe the Repukes don't have a right to say Boo to anyone, but *we* (as in, those of us who have never supported aggression) have not only the right, but also the responsibility to do so.

I am long past the days when I count myself among the "we" of America in general. There are two Americas, now. MY America opposes war.
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frebrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. This country has earned the right to STFU Rec n/t
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Diermour Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
24. I wonder
if everyday Americans will see all the carnage to the citizens and realize how awful this is. It's probably easier for some to understand that our war with Iraq was "justified" when our interests were at stake. I wonder how many minds this will change when they see it being done to someone else.

But I do agree with the above posts - Doesnt matter if we think we're justified in saying this is wrong. That's not the question. You say it's wrong because it's wrong. Period. Past mistakes don't mean we can't step up to the plate.

Kudos for all those denouncing this.
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Clear Blue Sky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
25. Even if we told them what to do, what if they told us to shove it?
What then? We are truly stuck. We won't go to war with them. And they can claim countries that were formerly Soviet and what are we to do?
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Redbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
26. Depends on what you mean by "we"
If "we" equals the Bush admin, I agree.

If "we" equals those of us, including Sen. Obama, who opposed invading Iraq, I disagree.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
27. Moral ground. How quaint. nt
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
29. None. (NT)
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
31. You don't have to be a saint to condemn another's bad actions.
Otherwise, no one would be allowed to condemn another country's actions.

Name one country that doesn't have some moral problem or historical shameful event.

I guess the whole world can STFU.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
32. That's basically what Putin told us, too. n/t
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
33. Because "but he's doing it too" isn't an argument, it's a fallacy.
Just because The US does BS is not an excuse for other countries to do the same thing. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong no matter the behavior of any one country.
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Thank you.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Well, I am glad to know at least one of us knows what is right in the given tragady.
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zorahopkins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
34. None. Zip. Napa. Zilch
The US has NO moral authority whatsoever!

The US engages in torture and genocide!

The US has kidnapped children!

The US is responsible for the wholesale slaughter of thousands of innocent Iraqis!

We should SHUT UP and clean our own stable in the White House!
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
37. On the grounds that what they're doing is wrong.
Edited on Mon Aug-11-08 04:22 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
Two wrongs don't make a right. If Jack the Ripper was to say "that's wrong", then if he was right he'd be right, and if he was wrong he'd be wrong.

People who care about right and wrong will care about what is said, not who says it. People who don't (like the Russian government) won't listen either way.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. What Georgia is doing or Russia or what what CNN tells you?
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. My impression is that both Georgia and Russia are behaving badly.
I don't watch CNN (not being an American), so I don't know what they're telling me.

But, frankly, the point was a general one - anyone has the right to tell anyone else that what they're doing is wrong, if it is.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
39. What moral ground does anybody have to do anything?
Christ! If they're wrong, they're wrong! Everyone should be speaking up and demanding they cease firing.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
40. NONE. That simple.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
42. "We" can say
Get out of Georgia, you low down imperialist motherfuckers!

On the other hand, Bush can't say anything.
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