Bullshit

Penn and Teller's program is bullshit--it'spure propoganda.

What I could tolerate of the show I just watched covered the following:

The UN is corrupt and unnecessary--they rape kids and there was an oil for guns and guns for gold scandal...
A.N.S.W.E.R. and Code Pink are worthless--peace groups won't change a thing by marching; Melanie Morgan is a comparison to ANSWER and Code Pink and she advocates perpetual war; and the Cato Institute was the authority that evaluated the worth of Code Pink and Democrats and said that marching and protesting on Capitol Hill is worthless...that lobbying for capitalism inside congress is the approach that should be taken for peace :wtf: to which Penn answers "Damn straight skippy."

I am trying to summarize 30 minutes of bullshit in a few sentences so it may not come across the way I saw it. But I am once again horrified at yet another seemingly benign individual (Penn) coming out on the right wing's side in what is supposed to be some type of fair and balanced format.

And American-style "libertarianism" is just a socially permissive right wing. In fact, it's worse, because they want to hand the keys to government to the corporations, which is essentially fascism.

Some of their shows are good and some aren't. It's hit or miss with those guys as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a huge fan of Code Pink, but I'd have to disagree with them on the UN and ANSWER.

They aren't fair and balanced. Penn has said so on that show several times. It's opinion.

"I got mine, fuck you" morans that honestly believe that they have achieved entirely on their own. The first and only time I met him (they?), I was literally stunned at his ignorance and utter lack of contemplation regarding the act's success. He seems to have completely convinced himself that, even if he were born into the desperate poverty of Somalia, he would still have prevailed in the entertainment industry and achieved the wealth and fame that he has now.

After trying to engage him on an intellectual level at a private social event for about 10 minutes, I had to walk away, sadly shaking my head, saying to myself, "you just can't fix stupid".

Teller said nothing the entire night and the host of the evening told me that he was very disappointed that they seemed to think this was just another show, and several guest, nearly all of whom are in the business, expressed their own revulsion at his/their behavior.

I was saved from a bout of depression after reading that post only by the picture of Kucinich.

Glad to be of some service. My life has taken a bizarre sequence of turns since those days and it is sincerely pleasing to think I can bring a tiny bit of light into anyone's life anymore.

Thank you.

And decided I needed more inspiration along those lines. Thanks for being the catalyst. :)

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:eyes:

i guess the guys at the cato institute were busy that night.

btw- i've actually had a face-to-face converstion with teller.

He is silent in the act.

Penn & Teller started as a coffehouse act. I saw them first at The Painted Bride on South St. in Philly about 1973 or so.
They originally had a musician performing with them by the name of Weir and they called themselves the Asparagus Valley Cultural Society. They invited me to a New Years Eve party they had one year, but it was too far and I had other plans.
I have watched their rise to fame and enjoyed some of it, but lately I can't watch "Bullshit" for the same reasons as the OP.

and sometimes they are way wrong. That's how libertarians are.

Their piece on bottled water - that was a keeper. It's on youtube.

As for UN troops, well, yes, they do have a history of rape and child abuse - they are military troops who have the same issues that lots of macho idiots with guns in the military have. They may be given a "peace-keeping mission" while under UN command, but they are the same people as make up the rest of the military in various countries. If you understand that there is a culture of rape in the military, it's stupid to think it will magically disappear because the individual is assigned to wear a different color beret.

"The assistant secretary-general for peacekeeping operations acknowledges that sexual abuse is widespread."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6195830.stm

I don't see a reason to downplay that - I appreciate anyone who brings it out in the open. Sweeping it under the rug certainly isn't going to help anything.

... they talk about it as if it is a separate nation and not a group made up of member nations.

When the UN decides something, it is because the member nations decide. The GOP (and fellow ideologues, the Libertarians) behave as if some dark and secret cabal of unknown persons sneak criminals into their peacekeeping forces.

And I have to agree with your assessment regarding the military; if the soldiers are rapists, they will still be rapists no matter where they are, or the uniform they wear.

See my post below.

I think there's a fair element of truth to what you say in many respects, though. I'm not sure that's a point in the UN's favour, though.

...if they waste money, it is because the members are wasting money.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you when you say that studies and reports are wasteful.

Poorly documented studies and reports based on unscientific methods are wasteful, but has the UN prevented you from getting assistance to compile data which may not be in your specialty?

Also, if the UN is toothless, it is because the members have made it so.

Any group recommended as a replacement for the UN by the very people who are making the UN useless cannot be trusted. The GOP's "League of Corporations" is no solution to underfunding and undermining diplomacy.

My complaint against the UN is not that it didn't help me deal with the data, but that it shouldn't have been paying me to do so in the first - I looked at it to help out a friend, but the fact that she needed me to do so means that her whole project was being run incredibly wastefully and inefficiently.

The people doing the most to make the UN toothless are China and Russia, not the US.

Did they rendition you to crunch numbers? Could you not recommend someone else to help your friend? Could you not find someone to help you where you felt you lacked expertise?

Again, those decisions are made by people hired ultimately by member nations. It may be a few levels of hierarchy separating them, but the members are responsible.

As far as China and Russia go, I couldn't care less what they do; they don't represent me. I criticize the U.S. government because what is done by the U.S. government is being done in my name.

That does not mean I approve of everything Russia or China do, but I have to draw a line somewhere. There are so many things I can feel accountable for. So, I criticize those who do things in my name.

"When the UN decides something, it is because the member nations decide."

When the UN decides something, it is because the larger nations use their leverage to threaten and bribe the smaller nations into compliance.

Like Donald, I support the theory of the UN. The reality is different. That's what happened with the Iraq sanctions under Clinton - the UN knew they were wrong, but they were coerced by the US into giving those sanctions legitimacy. Rather than preventing the death of a half million children there, they contributed to it.

When that coercion happens, which is often, the UN members can be coerced to shielding a nation from war crimes prosecution. ("It was legal - the UN SAID so!" - after those committing the crimes threatened to cut off humanitarian aid for those who voted the "wrong" way.)

And I will freely admit I don't have a better solution - but this as it is isn't working.

I recently got paid to do some work for the UN.

I have no relevant training, but I'm doing a PhD in maths. One of my friends' mother is an eminent sociologist, who was one of many such working on a project involving measuring gender inequality for the UN; it turned out that none - not one - of the many eminent sociologists working on this project new anything about analysing data, and they paid me (despite the fact that I'm not a statistician, I'm a chaos theorist) to look at it for them. God knows what the rest of their project consisted of...

And the UN spends an awful lot of money on this and similarly wasteful projects.

I fully support the principle of international cooperation, but the UN is corrupt, incredibly wasteful, and toothless; the fact that Russia and China - two countries with no respect for human rights whatsoever - have vetoes (not to mention the US... ) make it pretty much impotent to deal with most human rights abuses.

One of the few ideas of John McCain's that I like the sound of is of a "League of Democracies" - some form of middle ground between American unilateralism and the UN with its Russian and Chinese vetoes.

Especially the various episodes dealing with skepticism. But their extreme Libertarianism shows through too often in other episodes.

I used to admire their talent. Penn is clearly a koolaid guzzler without a clue.