Ah people are shocked I tell you (Draft)

So basically this morning I and a fellow wife from a navy vet Ret (sub service) were talking with a couple from Chicago

The conversation went into how the Chickenhawks, (I refrained myself from using such a term) have destroyed the military. We also went into how, if current policy continues we need a draft (have needed one for a while) and how our readiness is right bellow Pear Harbor

This isn't about the draft... I know many here don't agree with me, dears been there done that... so stuff it... but about how shocked these two people who have never, EVER served or had contact with the military in any shape, way or form, were shocked that people WHO DO... agree with the general concept even if we know how radioactive the theme is.

They never realized the extent of the back door draft

Or that Navy people on Shore duty get to play army in Iraq (how's this going for you, as a tax payer you paid close to two million to train your reactor man on a nuclear sub... and we have lost some already) This conversation, about national service and all that will continue, even if around the edges... but the talking point is NOBODY in the military wants this... wrong... people have realized how necessary this is

Oh and the talking point that troops don't want a soldier that doesn't want to be there... I can assure you those SAILORS and AIRMEN don't want to either.

Oh and go ahead... suiting up for the flames.

and the one thing is for sure, you don't need people in the military who have no desire to be there.

in fact, I will

you know how rare is a third sea tour and how many wavers it takes?

You do realize a fourth one is down right illegal?

You have no clue

And that is just one example.

Oh and one more thing. this is how individual augment actually works

You are a navy pilot, you want to go beyond Lt Commander and do a full career, you will go command troops on the ground... That is not volunteering.

And by the way... where did you serve?

now, feel free to cite the law that you claim is being broken, but don't tell me I have no clue. every male in my family has served in our military, including my cousin who is in the navy and did service in iraq and afghanistan along with a number of his buddies.

there is no back door draft

that's a draft.

not to fight a war that from recent evidence fits the standards of article one of the general indictment at Nuremberg

I don't recall that in my oath of induction or the contract I signed when I enlisted.

and illegal orders should be questioned.

That said, you are not even dealing with the matter at hand, WE NEED A DRAFT period

we don't need a draft..

We do, for many reasons... some of them have to do with Citizenship and nationhood

But we do, especially if we keep this shit going

is the right thing to do. It's a choice that should be left up to those people who have a calling to do the job, not someone who was forced by an act of congress.

because they want to... so we are already forcing people

Many a navy and AF personnel are being told, quite openly, you don't serve a tour in the sands... not on the water, but ON The sands, you can kiss a full career good bye, they don't want to be there either

that's not the same as plucking a PFC off the street and sending them to boot, AIT and then Combat so a guy who signed up for the organization that fights this nation's wars can go home on time.

if it were a real emergency situation, like Pearl, sure...but Morale isn't helped by a bunch of nitwits who have no business in uniform in the first place being forced to be there

by the way what part of readiness is UNDER Pearl are you misisng

forcing people into the military is not what makes this country's military the best in the world. Having people who choose to serve their country and WANT to be there doing the job is what makes this country's military the best in the world.
The military should be professionals who take pride in their job, not some kid who was forced to go into the military as a social exeperiment because of the current mistakes made by this administration. I don't want my kids forced into service to the state, that's not what freedom is about and that's not why I served my country.

or your kids?

Got it

That is the bottom line, thank you

Enjoy your stay in DU

Thanks for your service

And good night

(and the US Military is no longer the best in the world... it was... but no longer is... in fact any nasty surprise in Europe right now will mean more than just trouble)

because he/she thinks it would make more people oppose war or wants people to serve the state that's not freedom. The WWII generation was a different animal and subsequent generations will never compare to them on any level.

from ships and subs to the desert. A sailor does not sign up to shoot people in Iraq, much like a soldier does not sign up to squat on a carrier.

and many do

second my husband is a retired USN Chief

Third that is a real case... sorry charlie

Ask your cousin if a fourth sea tour, consecutive is kosher... in the US Navy

Go ahead, ask him

And you are telling me that people are not stop lossed? Gee... how many cites do you want for THAT ONE!

And where exactly did YOU serve?

I did... not in this military but I did.

So I do have a clue of what illegal is

And so does my husband, retired United States Navy Chief.

now, it may not be customery, it may be rare but that doesn't make it illegal. and questioning unlawful orders is the duty of every soldier and sailor..but it carries with it consequences if you're wrong
and a stop loss is still not a draft because every single enlistment is 8 years long in the US military and right now, there are only 9000 people actually affected by the stop loss orders

I served in the US Army from 1986-1994.

that is neither here or there... since it wasn't in the US Army, or Marines, or Navy or Air Force, or for that matter the coasties

As to my husband

SERVING A FOURTH BACK TO BACK SEA TOUR IS AGAINST REGS... VERY MUCH SO

Moreover, your numbers are OFF by orders of magnitude

9,000 versus 50K as of 2006 is a slight difference

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/01/army_stop-loss_program_forces_50000_into_extended_duty_/

Army Stop-Loss Program Forces 50,000 into Extended Duty
James Joyner | Monday, January 30, 2006
The AP has discovered the Army’s Stop-Loss policy, which is hardly news to those who have been paying attention. The sheer scope of the program might be somewhat surprising, however.

The U.S. Army has forced about 50,000 soldiers to continue serving after their voluntary stints ended under a policy called “stop-loss,” but while some dispute its fairness, court challenges have fallen flat. The policy applies to soldiers in units due to deploy for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. The Army said stop-loss is vital to maintain units that are cohesive and ready to fight. But some experts said it shows how badly the Army is stretched and could further complicate efforts to attract new recruits.

that's 9000 people who were to ETS and start serving their IRR time, who had to stay in the military.

The number of those being kept on beyond their commitment — through a program known as "stop loss" — is about 9,000 now, compared to about 7,000 before the troop buildup began in late January, he said.

Now we have had 58K affected SINCE 2003

Can you get this now? 58K have been affected, even if only 9K as of Oct 18, 2007 were affected AT THAT MOMENT

That does not mean that 58K have NOT been affected

Get it now?

58000 may have been stop lossed over the course of the war, you have me there

It is vets calling it this way.

And my apologies over GW I

there is a contract, there is a law. the courts have recently struck down challenges to that law.

if people don't like it, contact congress and have the law changed but don't pretend that people are being drafted by some loophole when there is clear language on the face of the contract that spells out the term of enlistment

oh and there is more.. UNDER THAT CONTRACT this is done with ACTIVE combat operations

DIdn't the President declare them over a while ago?

That said, we are getting into the technicalities. Many folks who have served IN THE CURRENT FORCE don't agree with you

At multiple levels, that includes the need for a draft

a technicality would be the fact that the president could extend their service until 6 months AFTER the war ended. And just because Major Combat Operations were declared over, that doesn't mean there aren't combat operations still underway.
like I said, if people want the law changed, contact congress but don't spread silly lies about back door drafts or say we need to start grabbing people off the streets who don't have any business in the military under any circumstances

:puke:

In the US army, dear, we call it the back door draft.

calling it a back door draft, when you have time on your contract is dishonest

at least with a draft I do not believe situations like Iraq would arise. All of a sudden everyone would have an interest in the game and the decision to go to war would be debated in congress. There would not be the ability to lie as booosh has done. Or at least so I believe.

the moment we declare war every member of the house and senate enters the service as an E-1

If they are under fifty to the line infantry, over fifty support

In his view that would kill all the adventurism... right there

I might modify it... you vote for it... your kids are in the army now... as E-1s

Prosecuting and convicting a sitting president sets the precedent for future presidents. (hows that for a sentence!!)

You want to start a war, you better damn well have the proof the country is in danger.

this includes members of the General Staff by the way

would try booosh for murder domestically. He is responsible for 4000+ deaths of american soldiers because he lied us into war. I would support an international trial for crimes against humanity for the balance of the carnage he caused.

No more Fortunate Sons.

:rofl:

I just love how the right-wing 'vet' apologist on the TeeVee spewed the canard about how 'professional' troops don't want them 'unmotivated' draftees around screwing things up. This brainless fuck wasn't even BORN when the draft was active!! Talk about mind-washed crap!

Thank GOD the left-wing president of Afghanistan and Iraq Veterans Against the War (I think ... bald head) countered by saying that the guys that were stop-lossed and re-toured and re-toured needed relief and it made sense for Americans to stand shoulder to shoulder with them UNTIL we prevailed and got out of this misbegotten war.

The divisions in "We The People" are so deep-seated now, after over 30 years of "Let George Do It" that we're in an "Every Man For Himself" mode ... and that's no way to KEEP a democracy. We're fucked ... truly and deeply ... especially when the folks who should be MOST aware of the need for the PEOPLE to work together lose sight of why.

and each and every one of them has a signed contract making them property of the military

Got that? And that's the LOW number from our 'trustworthy' DoD.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2008-04-21-stoploss_N.htm



More at http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0131/dailyUpdate.html

there are currently only 9000 soldiers who are serving under a stop loss order

oh yeah...the link you provided was from October 2007, and was citing the number of troops that were on stop-loss in Iraq at that time. Not the total.

:shrug:

anybody age 18 to 42 will be eligible which coincidentally will include my 30 something reThuglican boss. I'm curious to know how that might go over.

just like the Cons called WW II Roosevelt's war

I will be only too happy to remind him of the truth.